House Telvanni Brainstorming

53 posts / 0 new
Last post
LiquidHurlant's picture
LiquidHurlant
Joined:
2016-03-31 03:51
Last seen:
3 years 3 months ago

@Processus

The slaves work the egg mines, so the artisans and craftsmer can serve the tower’s needs comfortably. Besides harvesting eggs at their own peril, slaves probably get trained as servants and are used as live experimental subjects.

 

Processus Vitellius's picture
Processus Vitellius
Joined:
2016-07-07 09:41
Last seen:
2 years 2 months ago

@ DMKW

I really like that! Especially what you say about the degree to which Mouths actually speak for their masters:  

“Some mouths may genuinly “speak for” what they believe their masters might want to achieve, but many in the Parliament of Bugs simply speak for themselves.”

The way I see it this could open up some interesting questlines. Two of the major themes guiding the depiction of Telvanni in the game is knowledge and power. Telvanni wizards are constantly amassing power in the pursuit of knowledge, and constantly applying knowledge in their pursuit of power. It seems to me, however, that to the wizards that personal pursuit of knowledge is a goal in itself, and that the pursuit of power is only meaningful in the personal pursuit of knowledge. 

I can imagine an ambitious Telvanni that rejects this view. Who sees power, any kind of power, as the only legitimate goal, and knowledge as valuable only in so far as it increases it. To such a person the position as a mouth might proove an incredibly powerful position from which he or she can can attempt to manipulate political events to their favor. To such a person the wizards, with their vane scheming and striving for more and more esoteric knowledge, are nothing but tools to further their own political ends. 

Atrayonis's picture
Atrayonis
Lead DeveloperDeveloperInterior Developer
Joined:
2015-09-28 20:13
Last seen:
11 hours 29 min ago

How do you reconcile the “special training” Fast Eddie mentions with it just being a teleport system?

I find the Dreamsleeve both more convenient for storytelling, more in line with MW-era lore Tamriel (as Imperial clerks were already noted to use the Dreamsleeve to communicate), and more interesting than the rather banal teleportation.
What’s easier for a master wizard than to shoot a quick “bring me 5 scrolls of toad jumping asap” with their mind, instead of writing it down on a scroll and waiting for the Mouth to pop in on their daily routine? I’m all for practical solutions, but this seems to me just a way to circumvent the Dreamsleeve while the practical arrangement this provides falls to the wayside.

LiquidHurlant's picture
LiquidHurlant
Joined:
2016-03-31 03:51
Last seen:
3 years 3 months ago

Telepathy is already a concept in Daggerfall, the dreamsleeve is simply their means. As a countermeasure against eavesdropping, it also explains why the Mouths are trained. Think of the subliminal mayhem ensuing if the Masters communicated directly; each spying on their peers’ communications, planting ideas where they don't belong. A third party could minimize that.

Processus Vitellius's picture
Processus Vitellius
Joined:
2016-07-07 09:41
Last seen:
2 years 2 months ago

@ Atroynis: 

Could you point to where Fast Eddie mentions some kind of special training? I’ve gone throug the dialogue between him and the protagonist in Vanilla, but I can’t seem to find it. It is neither mentioned in the conversations with Aryon related to the quest of retrieving Eddie as a mouth. Aryon describes him as a promising Telvanni, but mentions nothing about some special training. Also, once you get Fast Eddie, in order to give him chores you actually have to go to Sadrith Mora and talk to him. 

Atrayonis's picture
Atrayonis
Lead DeveloperDeveloperInterior Developer
Joined:
2015-09-28 20:13
Last seen:
11 hours 29 min ago

Processus Vitellius

@ Atroynis: 

Could you point to where Fast Eddie mentions some kind of special training? I’ve gone throug the dialogue between him and the protagonist in Vanilla, but I can’t seem to find it. It is neither mentioned in the conversations with Aryon related to the quest of retrieving Eddie as a mouth. Aryon describes him as a promising Telvanni, but mentions nothing about some special training. Also, once you get Fast Eddie, in order to give him chores you actually have to go to Sadrith Mora and talk to him. 

I stand corrected.

He mentions that his career was stopped in its tracks and he was waiting to be a mouth for years, but nothing about special training. This is pretty embarassing, it might have been something from one of LGNPC mods or thereabout which I remember.

Apologies and I withdraw that argument (I still do like the Dreamsleeve better than teleportation for the other reasons I cited and would like to point out that having to walk to the Council Hall seems more a gameplay limitation than anything, as it’s certainly possible to create telepathy with Fast Eddie via modding).

LiquidHurlant's picture
LiquidHurlant
Joined:
2016-03-31 03:51
Last seen:
3 years 3 months ago

Because we already know telepathy’s a thing from character generation, why not stick with that? The way I see it, the dreamsleeve is the mechanism, which doesn't need to be explored any deeper than Dwemeri mechanics. At a mundane level, it's just another facet of dealings between wizards, where the Mouths are these quasi Mentats. I like it, anyway...

Atrayonis's picture
Atrayonis
Lead DeveloperDeveloperInterior Developer
Joined:
2015-09-28 20:13
Last seen:
11 hours 29 min ago

Ì don’t think we are disagreeing, other than you want to avoid pinning it on the Dreamsleeve design-wise. Which I don’t understand, imo you should quantify how tradecraft works, even if it is magical tradecraft.
The Dwemer are in contrast long dead, so it doesn’t matter, but the Telvanni (and the Imperial clerks) are alive and well.

LiquidHurlant's picture
LiquidHurlant
Joined:
2016-03-31 03:51
Last seen:
3 years 3 months ago

Oh, I don't disagree at all. I'm only trying to make the point telepathy’s there; whether or not we get to exploit the mechanics of the dreamsleeve, I take my leave. I don't know how much of that has been conceptualized and implemented. :)

I just didn't want to see a good idea axed, because no one was certain of the dreamsleeve’s use.

Processus Vitellius's picture
Processus Vitellius
Joined:
2016-07-07 09:41
Last seen:
2 years 2 months ago

So I don’t want to argue against the notion of a telepathic link between mouths and their masters in itself. I actually think it is an interesting idea. My biggest problem is that it is an answer to a problem that is not recognized in vanilla. To institute this as the general way mouths communicate with their masters on the mainland will therefore inevitably raise the question why it is not used on Vardenfel. 

If people still wish to explore this idea I would therefore rather suggest that it is presented as a new experimental form of magic, or an old mystic technique known only by a very few wizards. I still think it is a good idea that unfortunately is making too much disrupton to the original content, but that way you could at least minimize it. 

Kevaar's picture
Kevaar
Lead DeveloperDeveloperQuest DeveloperReviewer
Joined:
2016-01-19 19:35
Last seen:
1 month 8 hours ago

Processus Vitellius

So I don’t want to argue against the notion of a telepathic link between mouths and their masters in itself. I actually think it is an interesting idea. My biggest problem is that it is an answer to a problem that is not recognized in vanilla. To institute this as the general way mouths communicate with their masters on the mainland will therefore inevitably raise the question why it is not used on Vardenfel. 

If people still wish to explore this idea I would therefore rather suggest that it is presented as a new experimental form of magic, or an old mystic technique known only by a very few wizards. I still think it is a good idea that unfortunately is making too much disrupton to the original content, but that way you could at least minimize it. 

Perhaps it is Dagoth Ur’s influence that keeps them from using the Dreamsleeve on Vvardenfell? I imagine Dagoth Ur might use a similar mechanism to communicate with his followers, and crossing the streams with a mad god like that is probably bad juju.

But, that’s a bit of a kludge...I’d instead suggest maybe only some Mouths are trained with this? Those belonging to the most powerful Telvanni lords. Or as a type of magic that’s still new or otherwise fraught with dangers.

DMKW's picture
DMKW
Joined:
2016-01-17 19:59
Last seen:
2 years 1 week ago

Isn’t a mouth hired by their master in order to speak for them so they don’t have to?  if Telvanni masters could speak telepathically then couldn’t they skip the middleman and just speak master to master without the mouth?  The mouth as I see it is a trusted speaker for the master to deal with inner house workings and mundaine day to day stuff, so that the masters can bury themselves in books a experiments.   That stuff is beyond them and they probably don’t care about any of it.  I mean if I was an all powerful wizard I sure wouldn’t. If I was someone whos far away from all powerful or maybe could not ever expect to acheive all powerful, then I’d want power some other way withinthe house.  Lets face it, many Telvanni may not even be magically inclined.  Also, I imagine that masters are masters because they are not only magically inclined but gifted beyond what many will acheive.  When I think of my mouth Fast Eddy I don’t think potential all powerful wizard.  I think this is a guy who is just the shady politician type person I need to represent my interests while I do my own thing.

LiquidHurlant's picture
LiquidHurlant
Joined:
2016-03-31 03:51
Last seen:
3 years 3 months ago

Besides convenience, they also choose mouths as a measure against eavesdropping. If the wizards communicated directly, telepathy would reveal means and motives best kept hidden. That's my guess.

Atrayonis's picture
Atrayonis
Lead DeveloperDeveloperInterior Developer
Joined:
2015-09-28 20:13
Last seen:
11 hours 29 min ago

Memospore encription is a thing, you know.

In total, I think this is almost too complicated a thought construct for such a topic. The dreamsleeve works for telepathy, and it is “canonically” used by Imperial clerks and the Elder Council for that very same purpose, so it’s pretty sensible to believe that the Telvanni use it too. IMO.
Of course, at the same time I have to acknowledge that the Dreamsleeve mechanics were largely written down after Morrowind, and it only became popular after Oblivion when metagnosticism began its long and terrible journey.

Morrowind was really good about incorporating lore, but this one happened largely after, so it would be natural for the game to gloss over mechanics (as it is prone to do, it never went into depth as much as we do here, nevermind /r/teslore and the Whirling Schools). Morrowind shouldn’t be inviolatable in this regard, whether we in the long run agree on teleportation or Dreamsleeve telepathy/memospores. Just that we don’t need to invent a reason why any of that was ever mentioned in vanilla, and we shouldn’t feel compelled to spell out anything in TR itself aside from “everybody knows this” assumed background infos. Just so that we can agree on a determinator so that the things we create don’t actively contradict each other.

Processus Vitellius's picture
Processus Vitellius
Joined:
2016-07-07 09:41
Last seen:
2 years 2 months ago

@ Atrayonis:

I agree that the original Morrowind should not be inviolatable, but I think we ought to aim towards a game that allows for the most coherent storytelling possible. This means that we will have to keep an eye to what kind of restrictions have been assumed within already existing storylines. My fear is that by introducing a whole new way of communicating between wizard and the mouths, we will end up creating an unnecessary dissonance between the original and the expanded storyline. You might argue that we don’t have to justify every expansion to this storyline, which is an argument that I am generally sympathetic to. In terms of the role of the mouth, however, it is my opinion that it plays such a large role in the already existing storyline that to introduce entierly new mechanics inevitably starts begging the question. 

I am not completely opposed to introducing this into the our expansion of the original Telvanni storyline, however. Maybe our main character even invents this mode of communication?

Infragris's picture
Infragris
Lead DeveloperDeveloperInterior Developer
Joined:
2016-01-17 14:03
Last seen:
3 weeks 3 days ago

Kevaar

Perhaps it is Dagoth Ur’s influence that keeps them from using the Dreamsleeve on Vvardenfell? I imagine Dagoth Ur might use a similar mechanism to communicate with his followers, and crossing the streams with a mad god like that is probably bad juju.

There’s something to this. I think you’ll find this post to be relevant. Arguably, those creepy dreams Dagoth Ur sends you are a kind of dreamsleeve transmission.

It might be worthwile to nail down what te dreamsleeve is exactly: an afterlife hologram soul recycler, plus the place where people go when they dream. Imperial clerks can use it to send and receive messages (or store them for later in a memospore) by keeping part of their mind in a meditative half-sleeping state, requiring constant concentration.

Perhaps it would make more sense if dreamsleeve transmissions are a one-way thing? Masters can forcefully inserts messages in the mind of their mouths, but not the other way. It could also be that not all Telvanni lords have mastered this art: after all, they are not known for sharing secrets with each other. Wasn’t part of the lore behind the Vvardenfell Telvanni that they embodied the younger, pro-active branch of the house? Perhaps not all of them had access to these secrets.
 

Processus Vitellius's picture
Processus Vitellius
Joined:
2016-07-07 09:41
Last seen:
2 years 2 months ago

@ Infragris and Kevaar. 

That is a really interesting idea. I most definitetly like the idea of the dreamsleeve being a one way means of communication. The master might transplant a vision, a cryptic message, or maybe even a simple image, which it is up to the mouth to interpret. I am not sure if this is what exactly you had in mind, but hear me out: The mind does not recieve readymade information about the world in any form. All information recieved by us is structured in relation to our own subjective spatio-temporal frame of reference. We are, one could say, already tuned to capturing information about the world around us. To insert information into another person through the dream state would for this reason involve quite a bit of calibration on both parties. The information needs to be sent in a way that is processable by the reciever, and the reciever needs to make themselves receptive to the information in the form it is sent. In the physical world we are already tuned toward capturing meaning through the sensory receptio of physical constancies in the environment. We are thus provided with a common world that we can communicate about.  But in the case of our dreams, things are very much in flux. For example, often if you look at a street number in a dream it can change from one look, to the next. This makes communication through such a dreamstate extreemly difficult, because it is not helped by the common constancy of mundus the reciever needs to have a way of distinguishing the meaning and order recieved from the meaning and order that they are meant to provide. The sender might therefore want to send fairly simple, or symbolic messages through the dreamsleeve that is easier to recieve, but that consequtively demands quite a bit of interpretation on behalf of the reciever. 

I also think it makes sense for this to be used by some of the Telvanni, but not all, Infragris. The Vvardenfell Telvanni being a more expansionist and pro-active part of the Telvanni faction. This way we expand upon the main plot without contradicting it. 

I would like to share one worry, however. One thing I wish we could focus more on is what kind of stories we want to tell thorugh introducing new features to the game, and how it fits with the already existing themes of house Telvanni. I fear that if we don’t we will end up having a bunch of cool stuff, but stripped of any aparent depth or meaning. It will feel more like a themepark than a world. I realize that this is a brain storming thread, but at the same time I think it is good to try to also reflect on how we imagine this as a game experience. 

Taking this into consideration I have a two questions that I think we ought to discuss about the introduction of dreamsleeve:

  1. What kinds of stories does this new thing open up to us, and how do they fit with the themes explored in house Telvanni storylines?
  2. How do we imagine that the game mechanics of dreamsleeve is supposed to work, and how will it change the gameplay? Will the gamer be able to learn it? Will the gamer ever be contacted through dreamsleeve? 
LiquidHurlant's picture
LiquidHurlant
Joined:
2016-03-31 03:51
Last seen:
3 years 3 months ago

1. Becoming Aryon’s Mouth meant nothing. We were given a paralyze staff, and that was it. Bummer.

2. For example, when arguing the merits or dangers of Aryon’s philosophy, we receive memos from our sponsor. They could update over the screen as monologue bubbles, in the vein of the Sharmat dreams. After each phase of the debate, we ‘rest’ to contact our sponsor.

Cicero's picture
Cicero
Lead DeveloperDeveloperExterior DeveloperInterior DeveloperQuest DeveloperReviewer
Joined:
2016-01-25 21:01
Last seen:
5 min 2 sec ago

Some Ideas that me and Vern came up with on Discord:
 

Have Bound Stations in Port Telvannis for (If someone has high enough conjuration skill) people to summon an atronach to guide them through the city, as the locals are reluctant to give directions for anything. After telling the Atronach which important location they need to get to, the Daedra will lead you there, and dissapear once the player has reached their destination. Maybe have some NPC's in the city (not important ones) have a follow script to atronachs with a large AI wander range, to show that it isn't just the player doing it.
-
Have a lot of hanging Laterns from the bottom of the Large Mushrooms to give colour in the city, and to light up the place during night time. Could be quite Beautiful.
-
Concept art for the Telvanni Towers Should definitly be used for Towers in port Telvannis. Such as the Large Parasol Mushrooms Stacked on top of each other.

-
Maybe having Telvanni Experiments walking aorund the place, or have Daedra Roaming the city that are non hostile

-
Hospitality Papers for the City. And ones that you actually need to use the services....unlike vanilla sadrith mora.
-
Dust Adepts need to be a thing. Ashlands are planned for Telvannis Redo, and hopefully this will make the Adepts a reality, instead of just having their helms laying around the place with no groups of dunmer to associate them with. Have them shepard large Guar herds in the Ashlands and in the grazeland parts of TR when the redo happens. Where ever these grazeland areas end up being, hopefully not very big and only in a specific area.
-
Boethiah Spine should be Large Mountains with Lava Pools and part ashland. It should represent Boethiah, as a test for the dunmer living there, as Boethiah is Cruel by nature, but fair to those that are strong enough to withstand the harsh conditions. Maybe this is where the hive can end up being? Nestled between the Mountains somewhere in the region. Have the hive be the hub for the Dust Adepts?
-
Telvannis Redo should incorporate all the original MW Concepts that never got used in the rest of the Province, hence the Hive and Dust Adepts I mentioned before. Skyport should be in Dres Lands, but if it gets cut from there, should be in Telvannis. These concepts would make the place so interesting and would give it the wow factor that the Telvanni lands need.
 

No hope, no harm
just another false alarm

Gnomey's picture
Gnomey
Lead DeveloperDeveloperExterior DeveloperInterior Developer
Joined:
2015-08-10 20:50
Last seen:
1 day 20 hours ago

Just two short points while I'm on break:

​​​​​​Infrastructure is generally lacking in Telvannis. The mages keep to their towers, the Velothi to their villages. I don't think dust adepts should be a distinct group, but simply travellers, mercenaries and caravaners who traverse the untamed wasteland between the isolated spots of civilization.

As far as Boethiah's Spine is concerned, whatever is done to it I don't think it should be thought of as a region but rather a geographical feature and border between regions. Telvannis is narrow and I think more can be done with it. This doesn't affect the above ideas, just a note on my intentions there.

Shishkinbar's picture
Shishkinbar
Developer
Joined:
2016-10-10 22:03
Last seen:
1 week 6 days ago

IMO, Dust Adepts is a religious sect, worshiping Boethia, but with a mixture of Ashlanders and Telvanni traditions.

Cicero's picture
Cicero
Lead DeveloperDeveloperExterior DeveloperInterior DeveloperQuest DeveloperReviewer
Joined:
2016-01-25 21:01
Last seen:
5 min 2 sec ago

Why suggested a cool idea. A town that is sea level that requires all the residence to water walk to get around. Rather than the usual levitation. Llothanis was suggested to be such a place for this.

No hope, no harm
just another false alarm

Pages