Locations on the Mainland

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As per the discussion on Discord, there was talks of making things a little more coherent with the existing Bethesda concepts that we know about now. Anything on Mainland that requires to rename would be part of 2090, and not something to worry about right now as we have other releases to deal with.

Old TR used the names for places from Arena, which is a good base as it is the only thing we have for canonical locations on the Mainland and where they would be. Of course, Morrowind retconned some of the names for something more interesting, but still didn't go really crazy with the changes, such as the concept map for it's early developement. Bethesda did still stick to their guns for the concept map for vvardenfell at least (as far as the major settlements are concerned). As they did have to sqaush as much as they could into Vvardenfell with time constraints, they did do a good job at following their own concepts from the beginning as much as they could have done. 

This is just some ideas and what was proposed to change. And it isn't as bad as it looks considering for mainland the redo proposition is a village and Daedric Ruins (daedric ruins were brought up last year so figured to tie it into here too for safe keeping). 

Mainland:

Exisiting locations:

  1. Ildrim - Ildrim used to be called Darnim (as per it's Arena name Darnim Watch). Morrowind's concept map is called Darvonis Watch. Rename to Darvonis, which the V makes for a more distinct pronoucation when placed alongside Dondril and Dreynim Spa (which is what caused the rename in the first place). This would be best handled when Sundered Scar is getting it's volcanic makeover, so that it can all be handled at one time, and not getting in the way of current development on the areas that are not finished yet. 
  2. Some Daedric Ruins have names that don't follow the typical rule of thumb for Daedric shrines. Such as starting with a not-established letter, or adding in letters that are not seen anywhere else. The following shrines from what can be seen to fit the redo are: Oethadapilu, Kharalambos Ruin, Lambinatha, Kisrashallat, Hesadsadshamallu, Hassulsallusalkit, Boethian Deeps, Hashucivodulnassu, Cirtiritashpi, Aurmazdi, Sirsadorran. These could do with a renaming to bring them in line with the rest of the Daedric ruins in TR and Vvardenfell.
  3. Akamora - Draloris. (is Dragon Glade in Arena, Draloris is the concept map name. Akamora (although ending in mora) isn't that dunmeri.
  4. Bahrammu - Could shorten the name to just Baram. Bahrammu sounds a bit too try hardy for a name.
  5. Adurin-Ouaka - Could just call this Adurin. The added Ouaka is unnecessary. 

New Locations:

  1. Velothis Haven - This was supposed to be a settlement on the east coast of telvanni mainland (or possibly Glen Haven in arena). A small Velothi settlement. This place is refereced in dialogue during the Zainab Nerevarine quest from the slave bride. Open top canton with a port, Velothi population, Canal and Underwork overgrown by sadrith that have overlapped and expanded the port with the downside of making the lower levels flooded and inaccessible, waistworks residences, plaza converted to a farm set-up. There is a tower that has poked up through the middle of the canton, to which the Velothi were hopeless to stop it. The tower is known as Tel Llervu. Tel Llervu's lord is Andrano Llervu who is a sleaze that uses illusion magic to sleep around. he has a lot of kids as a result of womanizing and also illusion coming into play (chameleon, paralysis). He has a daughter known as Falura Llervu, who by accident, is a name Savile Imayn came up with for the telvanni bride for the zainab quest. Due to there being so many children, this has ended up being an actual person and so there would be two Falura's (one real one fake). Falura (the real one) is a daughter of a womanized mother who was a velothi and Andrano. Possible quest here and also a crossover quest for the mainland and vvardenfell.
    The Llervu's are redoran, but as the battle of Molag Beran described, there are Redoran that fought the Telvanni on telvanni soil, so this could explain there being a redoran telvanni, a survivor who was a traitor to the redoran that settled down and basiclly doubled the family from his own loins. Redoran are known to have affairs so this is very much in character for Andrano.
  2. Greenheights - This is also a settlement in Arena and the Concept map. It could be interesting to give it a dunmeri name and repurposed into a pilgrimage site like the fields of Kummu. A quest giver could reference it as the "green heights of such n' such shrine". The boethiah's spine is supposedly planned to be a twisted, ashland mountian range. Having this on top of blackened cliff, full of green trees and grass. It would look like a site for a holy shrine. The Green Heights Shrine is protected, and never succumbs to the darkness around it.
  3. Norenen-Dur would be cool to have as a innaccessible ruin on the surface on the side of almalexia (like Sotha Sil or also like Anudnabia in Omaren Ancestral Tomb).
  4. Molag Beran and Tadras River.
  5. Bthalag-Zturamz, dwemer fortress with Azura ties.

Nods:

  1. Sailen - Salen Vulgate on the concept map. Vulgate would make for an awesome temple relic in Sailen's temple. Propped up for offerings and as a shield that heals warriors (ala. Vivec ashmask). This could make for a good pilgrimage site alongside greenheights mentioned earlier.

 

Velothis:

Exisiting location:

  1. Verarchen - Veranis. These are the arena name and the concept map name. It doesn't really need a rename as both are valid. Though Veranis is more dunmeri sounding. Either name works, it's just here as it was brought up.
  2. Silgrad - Silgrad Tower was a settlement on Arena and concept map. Repurposed as old Nordic Ruins under the now modern day Kogotel.

New Locations:

  1. Othrobar - A legit stronghold between Vvardenfell and Skyrim that has not been discovered. Put in the western inner sea because...it's not not been discovered.
  2. Frimvorn Pass - A pass in Marahk-Bazhul to Cyrodiil.
  3. Akgun - An Orcish settlement (a large orc camp) built from the remains of a Dwemer tower.
  4. Duathand - Dwemer stronghold with a massive underground section.
  5. Gunal - Dwemer Stronghold on the coast of Clambering Moor with a few shacks using it for cover (mini Dagon Fel).
  6. Ald Olyra - A second era Redoran fortress full of undead in the Grey Meadows
  7. Noormoc - The inspiration for the name Gnaar Mok. Noormoc is a Dagon shrine in the inner sea (across from Gnaar Mok)

 

Narsis:

Changing of planned locations:

  1. Uneyn - Hla Rud. This is Hlarud made to look more dunmeri. Hlarud is another planned location in the Narsis district.
  2. Hlarud - Andrethis. The area west of Narsis has a lot of soft spoken settlment names that are quite short (Uneyn, Hlarud, Narun). It all starts to be a bit samey. Andrethis is one to break up the manotony, and is the name of a location from the tes3 concept map. This is an official name and also has more umph to it, which makes the other settlements nearby not seem so soft, as there is less of them and they are seperated. It looks like a memorable name, and it begs you to explore as it just has this sort of draw to it. It sounds like an important place in other words.

New Locations:

  1. Ald Lambasi - Ruined redoran outpost (redoran dungeon).
  2. Ferventhil - Hlaalu village part of Narusa's Winery. Local workers live here, as this is Narusa's stronghold.

Nods:

  1. Old Keep - Having outlander farmers in the Thirr Valley call Ald Iuval the old keep (not capitalized) would be quite fitting. As that is what it is, and being farmers, they don't have time to get all fancy and call things by their name. This is dialogue flavour, nothing more. Example: "Could you bring these goods over to the old keep for me? It's just a little ways west of here."
Dominion:
 
  1. Ald Erofud - Underground redoran ruins built under modern day Arvud.
  2. Ald Umbiel - Coastal outpost, redoran, destroyed (redoran dungeon).

 

Other:

Other places that don't need much discussion as they are lore locations. Again this is just for safe keeping:
- Vounoura (Morag Tong retirement island, probably too far away to even worry about)
- Chinzinch Pass (this I would like to do as it is the pass between Leftunch and Hendor-Stardumz. Thinking just having some dwemer statues with a map marker in an area that looks like a canyon top). Possibly the dwemer concept art recreated as statues (the staff and the hammer wielding dwemer concept is the one I am meaning).

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Ferventhil is a village mentioned 2920

Related to that is Ald Lambasi (which Ferventhil is supposed to be north-west of), Ald Umbiel and Ald Erofud (Arvud) which are supposed to be strategic forts from the war, personally I think these would be good as new locations in DoD, specifccly as ruined redoran fortresses. The new release is somewhat lacking in dungeons that impress from a distance. TBH it is sort of lacking in dungeons in-general.

"Forum sigantures suck"

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cough cough  Molag Beran   cough cough

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I know there was a meeting two years ago about how Molag Beran isn't serious lore because it was from the entertainers plug-in. But considering Fort Firemoth is lore I don't see why the plug-ins should be dismissed. They are official content. The idea is that Molag Beran is a landmark or a very small region. Given that there is a 5 cell region in telvannis called Araryon Pass which has no settlements or anything in it, I don't see why this couldn't be renamed to Molag Beran Region and changed to have the rivers going out to the north with it's name being the Tadras river, and a landmark hill in the region called Molag Beran with shrines, offerings and many swords stuck in the ground would make for a cool visualisation of a great battle. Drenim is a Telvanni name and Retheran is Redoran, so it's not out of the question for this to take place in Telvanni lands as possibly Retheran guards came to Drenim instead of meeting somewhere (and ultimately lost to house Drenim). As minor houses do exist outside of the great ones these names look legit.

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Dejasyte is possibly the argonian name for Deshaan. Writing here as 100% it will get lost on discord.

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One thing I noticed is On Morrowind does use the names Kragenmoor, Blacklight, Cormaris View and Silgrad Tower. I know that there is a chance that when NPCing these places outlanders would name them as such. Though I am thinking as On Morrowind is written by an outlander (an altmer) and Cormar is imperial, the name Cormaris would be more appropraite. 

Oh also Gorne is in the Inner Sea and not the Padomaic ocean as per the Poison Song when the guy jumps into the inner sea and washes up on Gorne. 

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Oh also Gorne is in the Inner Sea and not the Padomaic ocean as per the Poison Song when the guy jumps into the inner sea and washes up on Gorne. 

As per our screaming at each other yesterday:

  1. The character in question is noted to run north "for a few hour" and then jump into the Inner Sea, he eventually washed up on Gorne. It does not actually say that Gorne is in the Inner Sea,
  2. Gorne in Poison Song is noted to have been an island even before the Inner Sea was formed (during the War of the First Council), which makes its placement in the Inner Sea rather dubious,
  3. Gorne with its lush and colorful flora is implicitely untouched by the eruption of Red Mountain as opposed to Vvardenfell (which is noted to be nothing like it was before), which is at odds with the apolyptic dimensions this eruption is said to have been (it's not called the Year of Sun's Death) and which we depict elsewhere (Armun Ashlands) if Gorne is right next to Vvardenfell,
  4. Poison Song is full of other discrepancies, like children playing "Siege of Orsinium" two centuries before that siege actually happened, which can be exused by
  5. it being in-universe fiction.
  6. Tedders wrote it and that might give it gravitas, but he also wrote a very confusing and conflicting Xylo river in "A Dance in Fire" which I could only resolve by reverting its flow. I don't swallow stuff MK wrote without judging it, I don't swallow stuff Tedders wrote without judging it, and neither should you.

From this, placing Gorne in the Inner Sea is less a case of "old TR couldn't read" and more a case of a very literal interpretation of one feat (Dagoth-Tythos' jump and wash-up) while ignoring any and all other implications.

I can't agree with this. You are asking me to stop thinking things through because an in-game fiction book said it. I've drawn comparisions to the graveyards west of Necrom before and I'll do it again just now.

The current placement is, in my estimation, fine. Dagoth-Tythos could even have run north and jumped off high cliffs into a river and then ended up washed up on Gorne - he just travelled south via Orethan currents. The river system has been around as far back as Arena after all.

Dropping the Sixth House stuff from Gorne and moving it into an island in the Inner Sea might be worth it, though. It really is a bit too far from House Dagoth's power base and the TR_Mainland note (4 millenia old) of it being a dumping ground and mass grave for House Dagoth stuff and people is a bit too blatantly comically evil in my opinion.

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Dropping the sixth house from gorne and moving it to what island?

I don't think people will be happy about dropping 6th house content from gorne. I know Why has big plans for it in the future and gnomey would want to redo it's chapel akin to Akamora redo anyways.

If you are okay with adding an island to the inner sea with 6th house activity, then you are open to redoing gorne (to remove content), and also adding islands in the inner sea. At this point why not just carry it over? keeping the 6th house activity on gorne like was described, like how we have it now, and also continue to have. And it also feeds into the concern you have of why is the 6th house so far away? 

Azura's coast was around during the time of Nerevar, as he took a pilgrimage to Holamayan before the battle of red mountain (which has been a pilgrimage site needing a ferry, which one can assume, has always been the case due to it's isolation). Not to mention the Azura statue is positioned in a way to be overlooking something. And that shrine is chimer, as are all daedric ruins. Overlooking something that is now called Azura's coast because of that statue. Another source though not as strong as the previous two is 36 lessons, Nerevar and Azura's coast are both mentioned in this timeframe leading up to the journey to almalexia. Tel Aruhn is ancient also, and I'm pretty sure that was always an island in the sea.

It isn't too far fetched to think that Gorne could be off the coast of Azura. As for lush flora, you would be surprised what can grow in isolation on a volcanic island (if it was to be inbetween molag amur and sundered scar). if you really want to play up the no new fauna here because of that quest, then it might be better as this would be closer to hostile landscapes than out in the indoril regions which is safe and lush all around. Things die in hostile environments, so less of a species being present, then comes hunting, and there you go. Extinct.

To me the benefits are: It could give gorne more creativity with landscaping (mixing lush with volcanic). The Quests could make more sense. House Dagoth presence makes sense. The Chapel could have intersting dynamics with the mainland being away from their typical territory. Players would visit it more often because it is closer to everything, and if people really want to take poison songs geography at face value, it is there for that too (I'll let that be the weaker point as you don't like that I think gorne should moved in the first place). 

Anyways I don't want this to be a scream fest. I was hoping people would have been quite calm when discussing it. I have read your points and I do understand where you are coming from. I'm just thinking based on not just poison song (although that is where the lore comes from for the island at least) but backing it up with other sources for there being sea in the area. The 6th house presence closer to vvardenfell. There are people that want Gorne 6th house content. It is there already. Just thinking about it I'm not sure people got so upset that there is a presense there (aside from minerman but I doubt he knows the full story on both sides anyways), and removing that content (even moving it somewhere else) is still a redo in of itself.
Everyone in the conversation had nothing to do with the area in question. I made that part of the inner sea, and so I don't think it is right for peole to judge what happens there if they didn't put any of their own time into it. And I am willing to go through the headache if this can work out better than what we have currently. Ideally Idaveranno could be raised higher and moved closer to Id Vano as a costal stronghold at the time like Indoranyon. If the coastline was to remain in tact around the bay (not per my map which shouldn't be taken 100% anyways) then Gorne could still work. It would just retain it's existing shape, which means no redo at all for the island, just touching it up with new assets, which means no removal of content, only adding. TESFaith would help keep it in tact. Aside from Ida, there is absoultely nothing in the bay there, so wanting to protect it is kind of weak imo.

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A new island in the inner sea that's there just to move the first era 6th house content to can be one or two cells big, whereas moving and expanding Gorne would take up around a dozen cells.

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I did also note that it could just stay the same size if we aren't expanding the inner sea. Which iirc Gorne is about 8 cells. Not exactly breaking the cell bank.

Also just checking, you read both mine and Atra's posts in their entirety right? Not just reading my first few sentences and then commenting.

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I didn't feel like responding to many points in a big post, just a specific one.

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Hmmm

Hopefully this doesn't derail things to just that one point. Kinda wish you commented on everything so when Atra reads it over this one point isn't the only thing being discussed.