New Claim Proposals

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Today I checked around the western portion of map 4, went through the claims on the old forums, and started putting together a list of a few unmade interiors. Most of them are dungeons, but I also included the ashlander yurts west of the Thirr.

Here are the proposed claims with descriptions:
 

 

I’ll definitely understand if people want to hold off on the ashlander yurts. Those might require extra planning and could even be moved for all I know. But the others shouldn’t cause any problems.

I’m sure that if we could put up 5-10 claims every month or so, things would significantly improve around here. I’ll try to keep finding wilderness claims to put up if people approve.

(BTW, I just noticed the spoilers tab is acting up. Isn’t turning up how it should have)

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Hm, as always I’m unenthusiastic about opening up claims outside of the active sections, and as always that creates a limit on the number of available claims. In this case, though, I think the Ashlander camp could do the trick nicely for the monthly quota.

What I wrote about the tribe on the old forums:

resigning Age of Empires II AI wrote:
"My peasants' huts all faced different directions!"

The Buffer Zone camp has six yurts, including the wise woman's yurt and two that are under the large awning, which would belong to the Ashkhan and gulakhan.
My suggestion for this camp is that it represents the dregs of separate camps that were pushed out of their hunting grounds by the Hlaalu. Most of the tribesmen don't like each other, often coming from rival tribes; they don't like the Ashkhan, who is of another tribe from theirs; and they certainly don't like the Hlaalu. They will be very bitter and unfriendly with default low dispositions. Any members that didn't hate non-Ashlanders already left -- often to Andothren -- to assimilate into Great House culture. The ones who stayed behind are the ones too stubborn and spiteful to do so. Some might warm up to the player with higher dispositions, but others would remain spiteful, just not directing their spite at the player.

My take on it. The numbering’s a little different, the assignments are the same but the characterization is rather different:

1. Ashkhan’s yurt. She is the strongest leader left, but none of her original tribesmen remain, or at least none that ever liked her, so she has no support base. Some of the other tribesmen tend to blame her for anything that goes wrong. She’s not much of a diplomat, and has failed to build up a rapport with the other tribesmen.
2. a former outcast who returned to his tribe to protect them as they left their ancestral stomping grounds, and ended up being one of the last to stick around now that the tribes had coalesced. Likely a friend/croney of the Gulakhan, and probably supports him over the Ashkhan. Certainly dislikes the Ashkhan.
3. the camp’s healer. Doesn’t do business with the player, barely talks to the player, wants nothing to do with the player. Doesn’t fit the stereotype of pacifist healer either. Probably more interested in killing outlanders/overthrowing the Ashkhan than healing, but recognizes the importance of the tribe having a healer. May or may not actually heal the Ashkhan if she’s ever wounded/ill.
4. the wisewoman’s yurt. Two ways to go here: either she’s a trainee who is trying to make do as best she can but is ultimately not up to the task, or she was the wisewoman of the tribe from which most current tribesmen came from, and as such is treated as de facto leader by most of the tribe. Even in the latter case, her dreams should probably be disturbed, and she doesn’t know how to lead the tribe through its predicament. Perhaps have a ton of herbs and such around her bed that are supposed to aid in dreaming? If you want her to have really fallen far, perhaps even experimentation with moonsugar/skooma.
5. Gulakhan’s yurt. He’s the strongest warrior next to the Ashkhan, but like everyone else comes from a different tribe from her and really dislikes her. Not sure if the other tribesmen should support him or despise him as well. It’s glaringly obvious he will try to defeat the Ashkhan, but she’s a formidable opponent so the main question is when. Alternatively, he starts fights with the Ashkhan every now and then but has always been soundly beaten and spared, the Ashkhan not finishing the job because she needs every strong warrior she can have. Should probably be fundamentally flawed as a leader; perhaps even a warhawk who wants the tribe to go out with a bang by launching a suicidal guerilla campaign against House Hlaalu.
6. a hunter who tries very hard to stear clear of the rest of the camp. Probably only returns to his yurt periodically between extended hunting trips. Like everyone else he doesn’t get along with the Ashkhan, but his solution tends to be distance rather than overt antagonism. Will trade with the player somewhat reluctantly; probably the most likely candidate to defect to ‘civilization’, but he clearly hates said ‘civilization’ and wouldn’t do well there either.

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I had a brainstorm for a quest having to do with this tribe, here: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/asset/wicked-water-woes

I think it would fit in well with what Gnomey’s proposing.  Just one concern: shouldn’t the Ashkhan be male? Unless we want to do some sort of quest regarding why this is flip-flopped, I think it might not fit in with what we know of Ashlander lore.

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does ashkhan pass down to male heirs only or something? i thought ashkhan was chosen from gulakhans or just local nobles with whoever. i don’t remember their being anything excluding female ashkhans as particularly unlikely, unless, of course, i’m missing something?

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The Ashkhan thing came up in the thread I linked from the old forum. Long story short, I feel as though a female Ashkhan works in this context and think that while Ashlanders might assign gender roles they would put ability before gender when push comes to shove, being a fairly practical sort and always at the edge of extinction. Other people felt that strict adherence to the gender roles would be more important to them. While I do think a female Ashkhan might be interesting for a change, I don’t think it’s a terribly important point, so if people are still reluctant about it I’d have no problem with just dropping the idea.

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That’s the Obainat camp/tribe by the way. I’m going to update the area vocabulary in a bit.

It’s on the city map.

I still object to the female Ashkan, on the same grounds that I objected last time (although I admit it sounded more like a mainstream clan that had a different structure). It actively contradicts vanilla dialogue, the gender-aligned division of temporal and worldly power, and the whole Mabrigash identity that comes with it.

Aside from that, we are talking about the people who hold on to Nerevar worship and outright anti-Almsivi heresy even in the face of their extinction. They are not practical.
You might as well have a council of gulakhans, which would fit the tribe you portray more than outright spitting in the face of their tradition. The first among them could be female, but she’s not ashkhan because, by Nerevar and Sul, they aren’t outcasts.

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I’d be against a female Ashkhan myself, as it’s not really supported by the lore—pretty much what Atrayonis said.

Though if we’re going to subvert tropes, I would suggest trying a male wise woman figure, if only because imho the females-can-be-warriors-too has been done to death. But I would make it quest based, introduced to the player as a “this person is trying to go against the established culture”, rather than put in without explanation.

Ma two cents. smiley

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We already have that in the Halaran camp, actually, north-east of Port Telvannis. At least that’s how I saw him.
He and his followers are kind of hippies.

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I’m fine with opening up some new interiors. Of course we also need active reviewers too.

Does: concepts, textures, youtube vids, admin stuff e.g. PR, handbook, assets, small website things. Activity level: wildly unpredictable. Still active. Find me on Discord.

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I’ll put up the yurt claims soon with the provided descriptions in mind, though I also think we should hold off on the female Ashkhan. The idea seems too inconsistent with Morrowind lore and the general concept of the ashlanders.

Hopefully we can still put up the remaining dungeon claims, preferably by the end of next month. I could be missing something, but when it comes to dungeon interiors there shouldn’t many problems that can’t be easily tackled.

 

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Yup, as I said, if people are still reluctant about the female Ashkhan thing no harm in cutting that bit, and people still are.

 

Edit: as for the dungeon claims, basically I think that dungeon purpose – even for basic caves – should have some thought put into it. For instance, Aanthirin has a lot of ancestral tombs which house the dead of House Indoril, because Indoril used to own the whole region before Hlaalu took over most of it. It has a lot of smuggler’s caves because the region essentially represents Morrowind’s primary trade nexus, and because of Hlaalu shadiness. It doesn’t have a lot of bandits and animal dens near roads, however, because both the roads and likely much of the surrounding landscape is regularly patrolled by both Hlaalu and Indoril guards on their respective banks.
Those sort of things come naturally if the locality has seen some limited discussion and consensus –  which doesn’t really apply to most TR_InDev stuff  – and serve to both reflect and reenforce the particular character and role of the locality, which makes for strong worldbuilding.
I consider the matter even more vital for mines. TR has generally neglected Kwama mines, which is not at all to say that we should randomly put up Kwama mine claims in the middle of the Velothis to compensate, unless we decide we want egg mining to be a thing there. Glass and Ebony mines should likely be placed along roughly-defined ore veins extending from Red Mountain, and should generally become rarer further from Vvardenfell. I’m especially dubious about iron and gold mines, and am not sure what role they should play in Morrowind, if in fact any.

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If you suggest some other Ashlanders went off to integrate into Great House culture, you should probably actually make a few who did, and keep customs up behdind the closed doors of their home.

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Neverminding the Ashlander discussion (which it turned out was basically a big misunderstanding), I would like to propose some exterior claims, namely realigning the river who’s name I cannot remember (the one that flows around Almalexia.
The TR_Mainland and TR_Preview riverbanks are disjointed and disconnected and the version in my maps was deemed accurate enough. We wouldn’t have to move Bosmora to its new name and location, even. But we just plain don’t have any exterior claims otherwise.

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The yurt claims are now available! 

On the matter of the dungeons, there are definitely risks if we put them up next month rather than when they’re absolutely ready. And so I agree there should be precautions before claims go up. However, many risks could be removed if we make some basic plans right now. And if the mentioned worries still become a reality, all we’d have to do is move the claims somewhere else or make minor alterations.

Concerning these particular claims, most are in the Velothi Mountains, a highly treacherous and somewhat inaccessable region. Based on that, I’d assume that bandit presence would be low except for down near the ashlands. Smugglers here would be nearly nonexistant as they have little business in the mountains, except maybe near the passes. Ancestral tombs would be rare and would primarily belong to Redoran families. Overall, many dungeons here would probably be untouched or inhabited by monsters. This is just a start.

As everybody knows, we’re running precariously low on developers and planners alike. And, backed by TR’s expansive history, whenever there’s a steady flow of good claims, new modders come. I don’t mean bursts of 4-8 claims every 3 months or so – those help for a short while but quickly become irrelevant. I feel that we need to produce much more than that, even if it comes with the cost of having to adjust a few small things in the future.

 

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I feel as though opening up claims and then going on to redesign them later – and the discussions that inevitably followed – has generally had a demoralizing effect on people, though, unsurprisingly.
I would agree with rudimentary planning; it might be a good idea for a Discord meeting or something. We seem to be in the preparing-for-release cycle at the moment, though, which might make that kind of planning difficult.

For me, some Velothi mountain questions are: what sort of presence should the Orcs have? (Big topic) What about outlanders in general? How much Imperial presence do we want in Velothis? How about the Temple? What sort of presence do the Redoran have in those areas? Do they patrol often, sometimes, rarely? What sort of creatures live there? There were ideas about giving the Velothi Mountains some kind of thermal activity. And so on and so forth.

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Nordic presence, Nordic tombs? Another thing to think about.

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We rarely have to redesign interior claims. Usually at worst, someone would replace a claim and move the original somewhere else. Exteriors, though, I definitely agree should go through a thorough planning process.

Many of the questions you have are important and should be discussed, except some of them wouldn’t have much effect on dungeons that are already in the mountains. I’d be happy to discuss them now, though.

Don’t know much about Orcs in the Velothi Mountains or of any discussions that’ve touched up on that. If folks were imagining caves filled with orc bandits or something similar, there shouldn’t be any problems – at worst some weapons and clothing would have to be switched out. If you were thinking of an even larger presence (such as a stronghold), then it’d probably be isolated and wouldn’t have much influence on the nearby dungeons. And even if it did, then still few alterations would have to be made.

I’d assume that wherever there are bandit/smuggler caves, outlanders would be common. The mountains are right along the border of Cyrodiil, which probably means a higher diversity.

Imperial and Tribunal Temple presence would, I assume, not affect the dungeons in the more inaccessible parts of the Velothi Mountains. Despite that, I’d imagine the Imperials would keep a somewhat watchful eye on the mountains, though never too far from their border forts. The temple probably would do the same, just to a lesser extent as there are very few cities along the mountains.

In this southern part of the Velothi Mountains, House Redoran would probably maintain a few small outposts and villages along the lower slopes. I’d assume that dungeons very close to these outposts would be mostly void of bandits and such. 

The next question is a good one. In one post it’ll be hard to try and imagine what creatures would live here, but some new concepts would be neat. I’ve already seen a few floating around. Also goblins, as seen in one of the proposals, might come down into Morrowind from here. One thing I’ve noted, though, is that caves rarely reflect what specific creatures live inside (goblins as an exception). 

I’d be down for seeing some thermal activity, though I’d imagine it coming mostly from the northern Velothi Mountains. The dwarven mine I proposed might have some activity in its deeper reaches. This is something that I agree should be discussed further before we set up the claims.

I doubt Nordic tombs would come this far south. And they wouldn’t have any effect on the proposed claims anyways, so this shouldn’t be an issue.

I’m down with discussing these things further if it means we can have more claims available in the near future.

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RyanS

We rarely have to redesign interior claims. [...]

Well, not really, (Necrom interiors have been extensively redesigned, Almalexia interiors, in general Indoril interiors off the top of my head, I’m pretty sure the Dragon Nest Inn/Inn Between or however it’s called now was redesigned at least twice) but it is true the redesigns have tended to affect settlements more than dungeons. But I think that’s largely because not too much attention was paid to dungeon placement and purpose before, and the interiors put up since the restructure have (for the reasons I mentioned) mostly been within the already(-largely)-planned sections. Again, I did mention I’m dubious about the gold and iron mines, and about the placement of glass and ebony mines, and in general the distribution of mines, which provides an example of the sort of thing that could potentially lead to repurposing.

All of the things I mentioned could potentially affect what sort of dungeons you’d get in the Velothis and how they would be populated; not only the purposes of existing dungeons (as in existing entrances to dungeons), but also whether dungeons get moved/removed or added. To illustrate:
Orcs – this one would obviously affect who might populate caves and such, but even then there’s a lot of variation; are the Orcs hostile (in which case you’d expect loot from travellers they’ve attacked), are they tribal or Imperialized, are they in large groups or small? And naturally some mixture is always possible.
Outlanders – this again affects the demographics of the caves, but also more immediately the sort of clutter you’d expect to find. This isn’t just about bandits either; you might expect more necromancers, more ‘western’ mages, and so on.
Imperial presence – much like outlanders, but for instance you might expect fewer bandit caves, but have those that do exist be larger and more entrenched, perhaps even with some Imperial arms taken from ambushed patrols or something. You might also have some caves cleared out by Imperials, perhaps even some temporary bases, and perhaps more operational mines. Dwemer ruins might be under guard, outside or inside, and you might expect more Dwemer goods in surrounding Imperial locations and less in random bandit caves, etc.
Temples – the greater their presence, the less necromancers and vampires you’d expect, and the more hermits or suchlike you might expect; but possibly also shrines of some sort if the area has a strong history of Temple/general religious presence. In which case you might also expect more Velothi towers. Also, perhap more tombs; not necessarily fullblown ancestral tombs, but random Dunmer who die out in the wilderness might be given impromptu burials – perhaps those Ashlander skull-and-stick burials – which might lend the Velothis a somewhat haunted feel.
Redoran – basically same thing as Imperial, but replacing Imperial with Redoran. You might expect more operational Kwama mines and in general random scavengers, hunters and such living in caves. You’d tend to expect the area to be relatively safe, with dangerous foes keeping to the deeper parts of dungeons, but as with the Temple especially few necromancers and vampires and such.
creatures – we tend to not make much of a difference here, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t if we can. Perhaps the shaggy insect-deer builds nests in caves? Perhaps we’d create assets of local creature remains to strew in predator caves? Naturally the amount of predators would change things as well, but I suspect the answer would be ‘a lot’. Still, whether they’re packs or individuals might already have an effect on the interior design.

I don’t really think posing dozens of questions like this is an effective way to go about things; again, if we create rough plans for the location the rest will probably fall into place, as it did for Aanthirin. And a lot of these might seem like minor points individually. But, again, for relatively little effort you can imbue the interiors with more purpose beyond existing for the sake of it; the interiors become more interesting for its location, and the location for its interiors.
I’m not sure if this thread is the best place for that kind of rough planning, though, (probably not), and I’m not quite sure how best to approach it, frankly, in a way that won’t end up becoming terribly jumbled. A lot of things have been discussed in Skype Meetings, for instance, and summarized, but I’m not sure how well those are kept in mind, speaking specifically about a lot of the planning meetings on the old forums.

Edit: I’d tend to agree that the Velothi mountains as we define the region is too far south to get a notable amount of Nords, but certainly we might want to leave more remnants of the former Nordic presence.

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At the last meeting, we came to a consensus on initially releasing 15 of our new Roth Roryn interior claims, loosely followed by groups of 10.

I’ve started to make proposed descriptions for many of the 50 or so claims currently under design. My recommendation for claims going into the first bunch of 15 goes as followed:

2 Indoril ancestral tombs,
2 Redoran ancestral tombs,
4 natural caves,
4 velothi dwellings,
2 kwama mines,
and 1 velothi tower

If we agree to a list of 15, then we can quickly solidify plans for enough of the claim descriptions here and release them soon afterwards. 
 

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This is of course a very unorthodox method of making interiors, since there are no exterior entrances for most of these, are there?

With dwellings, caves, mines and tombs I think it’s not that big of an issue, but the Velothi towers and the shipwreck should definitely have their exterior counterparts made before any interior-work can begin. Luckily, the Temple Monastery (basically a Velothi tower) has an exterior.

 

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Agreed. Luckily, the plan is to keep the layout of the velothi towers very similar to their vanilla counterparts. So I wouldn’t worry too much about putting just one of them up right now.

The shipwreck is definitely something to prepare for, so I agree that the exterior must be made first.

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The final list, as decided during the Dec. 11 meeting, is below:

2 Indoril ancestral tombs,
2 Redoran ancestral tombs,
4 natural caves,
4 velothi cave dwellings,
2 kwama mines,
and 1 velothi monastery

Now that the 15 claims have been decided, all we need to do is plan out appropriate claim descriptions.

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Proposed descriptions for the two Redoran Kwama mines and commented on three other claims. All of the other claim descriptions (that aren’t noted as being incomplete) have my seal of approval. Excellent work. smiley

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I made four proposed descriptions for a few of the RR velothi cave dwellings. If those can be approved we can get the first claims batch up. 

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I've posted three exterior claims in design - are they sufficiently detailed to let exterior modders at them?

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I've replied to the seven claims mentioned above, which as of this moment are all at the top of this list. A bit more to be discussed for almost all of them, but they're shaping up quite nicely.
Atrayonis, have the discussions about changes to the waterways around Lake Andaram been taken into account for the exterior claims? The largest change that was discussed would apply to the Nav Andaram claim, but I got the impression this claim in particular might need some adjustments as well.

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The waterways are in the files, just not on the map. It will take me an hour or so to make a new one - I'll get around to it today.

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Lake Andaram Interior Proposals

Idathren

 


1. Idathren Guard Tower
2. Idathren Mages Guild: Former guard tower which now serves as a relatively minor Mages Guild chapter mostly devoted to study of Lake Andaram and the nearby Daedric ruin in particular. Contains a guild guide. The weapon racks have been repurposed as scroll racks.
3. Shack
4. Shack
5. Shack
6. Shack
7. Shack
8. Shack
9. Shack - Boatman's house
10. Shack
11. Shack
12. Shack
Cell: 5, -34
Region: Aanthirin

Othrano - Stronghold

 

Simovarithim - Daedric Ruin

 

Ancestral Tombs

 

Caves

 

Grottos

 

Thavas Plantation

 


1. Shack
2. Shack, Slave's quarters
3. Shack
Cell: 4, -37
Region: Thirr Valley

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I would rethink the Daedric ruin's name (Simovarithim ➞ Varashimmus, for example), otherwise the claim proposals are looking good.

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Idathren
An out-of-the-way town,  but frequented by trade ships travelling along the Thirr, and also has a Mages Guild. Roughly 1/3 of its population would be outlanders, 1/3 poor locals, and 1/3 Hlaalu and other Dunmer.

 

Othrano
Reminder to self to post information on Chimer stronghold here to a stronghold page. Othrano is an abandoned Chimer Stronghold, currently being camped in by a few passing low-level non-hostile but belligerent (that is, roughly medium fight level and low disposition) smugglers.

 

Varashimmus (going with Rats' rename)
As this one is being investigated by the Mages Guild, I'd brainstorm ideas for it in the context of Mages Guild quests, personally. I'm not sure if there would be a questgiver in Idathren, but whatever guild hall is nearest should work as well. (Ud Hleryn?) Also, I never did make that Daedric ruin document... I'd tend to say the ruin should have a fairly linear layout due to collapses and the like, but with side rooms, with low-to-mid-level Daedra guarding the various chokepoints. The Mages Guild has made slow progress clearing the ruin.

Ancestral tombs
Ancestral tombs in this area would come in three varieties, so let's take one of each:

 

Caves
#1 home of a stubborn (let's say) Breton recluse who fishes for food and minds her own business and would prefer if the PC did the same. Very small.
#2 a crystal cave overrun by critters, perhaps? Small.

Grottos

 

Thavas Plantation
#1 shed
#2 slaves
#3 owner. Should be relatively nicely furnished for a shack.

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I've tossed the Idathren interiors up as design claims. Othrano is being worked on by MinerMan for the time being as part of his exterior claim.

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