Showcase - Well Houses

17 posts / 0 new
Last post
Malus's picture
Malus
Joined:
2017-01-22 17:35
Last seen:
3 years 2 months ago

I made this a couple months back and would like to submit it as a showcase for interiors. Thank you very much

Here's the link

trifxn's picture
trifxn
DeveloperExterior Developer
Joined:
2016-07-09 22:22
Last seen:
10 months 3 weeks ago

No reviewer myself, but here's some advice.

You mentioned doing this a few months ago, right? You should take a better look at it again in the Construction Set. The TR team is paying VERY close attention when it comes to interiors.

Open the CS again and make sure there are no floating items, clipping clutter and that you correctly placed the "Northmarker(s)".

trifxn's picture
trifxn
DeveloperExterior Developer
Joined:
2016-07-09 22:22
Last seen:
10 months 3 weeks ago

They also hate, and I repeat, hate combined architecture. You have to decide between Hlaalu, Redoran, Imperial, Velothi, Common and whatnot, but no more than ONE architecture style. Also NEVER combine poor, common and rich furniture in the same interior.

Malus's picture
Malus
Joined:
2017-01-22 17:35
Last seen:
3 years 2 months ago

Gotcha, thanks for the advice

I added north markers

sirrah's picture
sirrah
Senior DeveloperDeveloperInterior DeveloperReviewer
Joined:
2016-01-17 13:07
Last seen:
1 week 13 hours ago

Hi Malus,

I've taken a look at your mod, and I don't think it can be used un-edited as a showcase; there's way too many ints here to review, and none of them are completely in-line with the interior showcase guidelines. The best course of action would be to choose one interior from your mod and polish it up to match the showcase guidelines. Most importantly, we need:

No stylemixing of architectural/furniture styles (e.g., no ashlander lights/chimes in non-ashlander interiors, no upper-class furniture next to lower-class furniture)
At least 12 grid-snappable pieces.
More clutter; since your ints are intended as player housing, they're too sparse for a showcase currently. Your showcase should convey the character of an occupant through it's design and cluttering.

If you could modify one of these ints to follow the guidelines (or make something new, if you prefer), I'll be more than happy to review it.
 

trifxn

Also NEVER combine poor, common and rich furniture in the same interior.

Well, this isn't quite true; there's a lot more wriggle-room for mixing furnitures of different class than those of different cultures. The general rule is that an interior shouldn't mix furniture more than one class above/below it, i.e. a lower-class house shouldn't have upper-class furniture and vice-versa, but using middle-class furniture in either is permissible. There are also scenarios where parts of an interior may have occupants of a lower class (a slave's quarters in a Hlaalu manor, for example); so long as there's a solid thematic reasoning behind it.

Malus's picture
Malus
Joined:
2017-01-22 17:35
Last seen:
3 years 2 months ago

Ok, I will make a new showcase and put it on a new thread. Thank you for the reply sir.

Malus's picture
Malus
Joined:
2017-01-22 17:35
Last seen:
3 years 2 months ago

Here is my showcase. I hope it is sufficient enough. Thank you very much ^_^

AttachmentSizeDate
Binary Data Malus_Showcase.ESP14.73 KB2017-02-08 16:22
sirrah's picture
sirrah
Senior DeveloperDeveloperInterior DeveloperReviewer
Joined:
2016-01-17 13:07
Last seen:
1 week 13 hours ago

Hey Malus, sorry for the delay. Thanks for putting together a new showcase; this is a good start, but there are a few things that need attention before it will be review-ready:

First things first, your file is dirty; please check your file in TESAME and delete all references not relevant to your interior. Since this is an interior showcase, you should also remove the exterior refs.

Secondly, you've got a few instances of style-mixing that should be fixed; 'com' furniture (com_closet_01 and furn_com_r_table_01) should only be used in Imperial tilesets in TR. Replace them with de_p equivalents. Additionally, upper-class furniture shouldn't be used in lower-class interiors (The de_r wallscreens are a bit of an exception to this, so don't worry about them).

Another problem is that you seem to have copied your interior shell from the South Wall Cornerclub in the base game. Using vanilla interiors as a reference is fine, but please don't directly copy/paste from them. Since you've made some edits to the layout and haven't copy-pasted any of the clutter I don't think it's egregious enough to rule out your showcase, but it's extremely important that you don't do this for any TR interiors you submit.

Finally, you don't have enough clutter; your interior currently has 98 objects in it, which is way too low for a three-story interior. Compare with the Cornerclub you've based your interior off; it has over double the number of refs at 217! TR generally prefers more clutter than vanilla, but we need something at least in the vicinity of 180 refs for an interior this size. In particular, the ground and first floors are practically empty; try to make these areas look lived-in.

Some smaller, but nonetheless important, problems:
You've missed gridsnap on a few architectural pieces, which has left gaps in your interior; take a look at the first-floor staircase for example. Remember to always turn on gridsnap whenever you move parts of the interior shell.
You've missed a wall mesh in the basement staircase.
'Illegal to sleep here' should be set for occupied interiors.
Tapestries should hang as consistently as possible across the interior; currently they're all positioned at different heights and depths from the wall.
Your Northmarker is pointing in the wrong direction; it should be rotated 180 degrees. Not a big problem, but so long as your showcase has an exterior, it should match it correctly.

Sort out the issues above and I'll give it another look. If you need help or further elaboration, don't hesitate to ask!

Malus's picture
Malus
Joined:
2017-01-22 17:35
Last seen:
3 years 2 months ago

I could have sworn I cleaned the mod. Strange. 

I have uploaded a new file with the mod cleaned and replaced the furn_com_r_table_01 and com_closet_01 with de_p equivalents. My apologies, I thought these fit into the house as they looked appropriate.

And my apologies for the whole copy/paste/edit of the southwall corner club, I thought edits were acceptable. I wont do this again

As for gridsnap, I have HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE problems with this as they NEVER snap into place properly. If you could give me some reccomendations, that would be wonderful and much appreciated

Everything else has been fixed as well, and I have added more clutter. 

If you have any more suggestions, please let me know. Thank you for your time

AttachmentSizeDate
Binary Data Clean Malus_Showcase.ESP23.59 KB2017-02-22 13:31
sirrah's picture
sirrah
Senior DeveloperDeveloperInterior DeveloperReviewer
Joined:
2016-01-17 13:07
Last seen:
1 week 13 hours ago

Maybe you're using a gridsnap value that's too high or low? I find 16 to work pretty well for fitting architecture pieces together (you can change the setting under File>Preferences). Sometimes the only solution is to re-snap all the pieces; if you click and hold on a piece without moving it while gridsnap is turned on, it should snap back into the nearest grid position automatically. I'll try to give your showcase another look tomorrow.

sirrah's picture
sirrah
Senior DeveloperDeveloperInterior DeveloperReviewer
Joined:
2016-01-17 13:07
Last seen:
1 week 13 hours ago

Ok, I've given your file another look. 

First things first, you're file's still dirty. If you open it in TESAME, you'll see references to a few doors and a book; these should be deleted. For an interior showcase, TESAME shouldn't show anything but the edited cells unless there are custom scripts or objects in the interior.

The bottom floor is much more cluttered now, but the two floors above it are still quite empty; try to give some evidence of traffic through these floors, the NPC might have a place near the door where they leave supplies waiting to be picked up, or a pot plant, or even just a shelf to rest things on. What does the NPC use his upper-floor balcony? Try to tell the story of the NPCs routine with the clutter of the interior. Even if an area doesn't have a specific purpose, it should still be visually interesting to the player; to take the example of the South Wall Cornerclub again, personally I find the hallway leading down to the guild in the basement to be far more visually memorable than the basement itself and all it has are a couple of tables and some crates. Some rugs would be a good addition across the interior to make it look more lived-in.

On a related note, the character of the inhabitant is still confusing in my opinion; the well-stocked ingredients/potions make me assume the owner of the house is an alchemist by trade, but right next to it is a bookshelf full of multiple varieties of armour and weapons. Why does the owner have these? If it's intended to represent armour worn by the inhabitants, it'd be better to convey this with fewer armor pieces laid out more naturally around the interior; currently it looks like the sort of shelf you'd find in an armoury.

The clutter on the alchemy bookshelf is a bit too dense. I would reduce the number of ingredients and potions on the bookshelf a little, and move the actual alchemy equipment to a workbench somewhere. Try to introduce some misc items like vials/flasks to show equipment used to make the potions. In general, I think it would be better to separate the work and living spaces more clearly.

What is the story behind the moonsugar sack? Is the inhabitant part of a smuggling operation or are they producing skooma? If they're involved in production, it would be good to have some empty vials hidden somewhere in the interior where the NPC works. If they're just a consumer, it would be worth putting a skooma pipe hidden somewhere.

On books: I'd prefer more variety than currently; owning a complete set of Brief History of the Empire is rare in the vanilla game, let alone two! Also, bk_lustyargonianmaid is a unique quest item, and shouldn't be used. On a similar note, bk_Ashland_Hymns is quite a rare book, so unless there's a good justification a more common one would be better.

You've got a lot of floaters/bleeders at the moment. If you haven't already, give our Interior Modder's Guide a read-through; TR has a very high standard for positioning objects, so it's important you pay careful attention to everything you place in your interior. Keep in mind that de_p furniture is not flat, and so any object on it will need to be rotated to lie correctly. Try to get objects to lie on a single triangle/face of the mesh (using wireframe mode ('W') helps a lot with this) as this makes positioning much easier than when an object is lying across two angled faces.

Many objects are currently rotated at right-angles, which gives a somewhat artificial look; try and rotate furniture somewhat more loosely. In particular, the sacks are currently very angular and same-y in their positioning; rotating them to be positioned more naturally would improve the look of the area considerably. On a similar note, don't forget you can scale objects with the 'S' key; with ingredients and containers like sacks, this is an easy way to introduce visual variety.

It's important to get a handle on using grid-snap, so try to have that sorted before you work any further on detailing; otherwise you'll be giving yourself more work down the line repositioning things. If you're still having trouble with the gridsnap values I mentioned above, please let me know!

Malus's picture
Malus
Joined:
2017-01-22 17:35
Last seen:
3 years 2 months ago

>you're file's still dirty. If you open it in TESAME, you'll see references to a few doors and a book; these should be deleted

Ok I thought that deleting these would delete the book and doors. My bad. I still have alot to learn it seems.

>two floors above it are still quite empty

Done. Added some clutter

>Why does the owner have these?

Well, I guess it's hard to tell the story without the actual NPC there, but he's a thief and a hoarder.

>reduce the number of ingredients and potions on the bookshelf a little, and move the actual alchemy equipment to a workbench somewhere.

Done and done sir.

>putting a skooma pipe hidden somewhere.

Done and done

>owning a complete set of Brief History of the Empire is rare in the vanilla game

I did not know this. I have removed some of the volumes
 

>You've got a lot of floaters/bleeders at the moment

Fixed what I could find

>sacks are currently very angular and same-y in their positioning; rotating them to be positioned more naturally would improve the look of the area considerably.

I hope I fixed them suffiently

>scale objects with the 'S' key

Ah yes, I forgot about this. Thank you.

 

I once again HEAVILY apologize for all the trouble.

AttachmentSizeDate
Binary Data Clean Malus_Showcase.ESP17.26 KB2017-03-07 14:27
sirrah's picture
sirrah
Senior DeveloperDeveloperInterior DeveloperReviewer
Joined:
2016-01-17 13:07
Last seen:
1 week 13 hours ago

No need to apologise, it's no trouble at all! Thanks for having another go at it. I'll try to give your file a look tomorrow.

sirrah's picture
sirrah
Senior DeveloperDeveloperInterior DeveloperReviewer
Joined:
2016-01-17 13:07
Last seen:
1 week 13 hours ago

Thanks again for resubmitting, Malus. The clutter is in general greatly improved, though I still want to see some rugs to cover up the empty floorspace. Currently, the biggest problems remaining with the interior are the lack of correct gridsnapping and general floaters/bleeders.

Concerning gridsnap; the following in_* pieces are correctly grid-snapped:

in_hlaalu_hall_corner_01 (3776.000, 4208.000, 15632.000)
in_hlaalu_wall (3632.000, 3968.000, 15104.000)
 

All the other in_* pieces need to be re-snapped with a gridsnap value of 16.

Regarding the justification for the armor/weapons; if the inhabitant is a hoarder, I can appreciate the display shelf, but if these are stolen goods, it might be better to have them placed more discreetly or behind a locked door.

Some other issues:
'de_p_desk_01_galbedir' is a unique, named desk; it should be replaced with a generic desk, or one unique to this interior.

Currently, the silverware cups and jug have ownership assigned to a vanilla NPC, remove the ownership from these items.

As I mentioned last time, the "Lusty Argonian Maid" ref should be removed; it's a quest item, and still a manuscript at the time of Morrowind, so finding it anywhere outside of the author's possession is a bit hard to justify.

Regarding the books; please replace the duplicate books with unique ones. I know vanilla MW tends towards having multiple copies of a book in interiors, but there is reasonably enough variety in book selection (especially with those added by Tamriel_Data) that we can avoid it.

The Com_Sack_02_Ingred refs on the lower floor are currently rotated in the same direction, which looks a bit artificial.

The Northmarker still isn't rotated correctly; the exterior is rotated at 177.6 degrees (2.4 degrees off from north), so the Northmarker should be pointing at 272.4

Here is the full list of floaters/bleeders that need to be addressed. Try not to be intimidated by the size, TR has a very high standard for realistic object placement, but it's really just a matter of working carefully and methodically using the selection box as a guide:

Bleeders/Floaters

As always, don't hesitate to ask if you need help fixing these issues, or you need further elaboration on something.

Malus's picture
Malus
Joined:
2017-01-22 17:35
Last seen:
3 years 2 months ago

Ok I added rugs and removed Gelbedir's desk and replaced it with a new one (no idea HOW in the world I used her desk :/ )

As for grid snapping, everything...looks fine. I'm confused as to what needs fixing :/

Removed ownership from the jug and cups

Lusty Argonian Maid removed

Replaced duplicate books with new ones

Fixed com_sack

Fixed NorthMarker (I think?)

Hopefully all bleeders and floaters have been fixed

 

 

Thank you so much for....putting up with me XD

AttachmentSizeDate
Binary Data Clean Malus_Showcase.ESP28.49 KB2017-03-16 11:55
sirrah's picture
sirrah
Senior DeveloperDeveloperInterior DeveloperReviewer
Joined:
2016-01-17 13:07
Last seen:
1 week 13 hours ago

Cheers, Malus. I'll try to have a look at this and give you some direction on the gridsnapping tomorrow.

sirrah's picture
sirrah
Senior DeveloperDeveloperInterior DeveloperReviewer
Joined:
2016-01-17 13:07
Last seen:
1 week 13 hours ago

(I had typed up a reply and then foolishly left the page and lost it, so apologies if this is vague/terse at points)

Ok, so if you take a look at the picture below (this is the topmost floor of your int), you can see that the edges of most in_* statics are not joining cleanly: This is particularly noticeable for complex joins like the pillars (circled in green). There are similar issues at the base of the staircase, as well.

The easiest fix is to turn your "Object Move" value down to 0.00 (preventing you from moving anything) and set your "Grid Snap" value to 16. This way, whenever you try to move an object it will correctly snap to its closest position without accidentally moving it into a neighbouring grid point. Then, just go through each in_* piece individually and try to move it so it snaps into position; you have to do this to each piece one-by-one (don't forget to turn your "Object Move" value back up when you're done, otherwise don't).

Some points I should have mentioned earlier:
You should only use powers-of-two for gridsnap values, otherwise things won't line up correctly. 8, 16, 32, and 64 are the most-useful values.
Try to avoid moving multiple statics at the same time; the CS uses the center of the entire selection to gridsnap, which can make everything go off-grid if one of the selected pieces isn't positioned right.

Regarding floaters/bleeders- we have quite a good guide on placing objects on uneven surfaces here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxtf3PaWZqbXMlZPSnc3TGhfM0k  For most objects (weapons and whatnot are often more complicated) the selection box is a trustworthy guide, so really try and ensure it lines up evenly and 'dashes' as described in the guide for every object you place. The potions on the bookshelf, for example, should all be rotated so their bases are lined up with the incline of the shelves.

Also, your file is dirty again. It's very easy to leave dirty refs when working on a file, so best practice is to recheck in TESAME every time you're finished with the file.

I'd like you to try and fix the gridsnap before I give you another full review; as I said, fixing it will likely introduce more errors. Try out positioning those potions as described in the guide, and have another look through the list of floaters/bleeders in my last review.