UXO's showcase

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UXO's picture
UXO
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Sup N'wahs. I've got zero experience modding Morrowind, but for a long while now I've been interested in helping out on this whole operation.

So I tried my hand at designing an interior (just a super basic Redoran-style house). Please let me know what edits I should make in order to improve it!

[CELL name : AATESTCELL]

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Binary Data AATESTCELL.ESP26.39 KB2020-02-25 06:26
sirrah's picture
sirrah
Senior DeveloperDeveloperInterior DeveloperReviewer
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Hi UXO, thanks for submitting a showcase. This is a nice little interior with a good design sense, and no style-mixing or other inappropriate item usage so definitely off to a great start. Lighting is good, you've set the interior as "Illegal to Sleep Here" and a Northmarker is present, which is all great to see. All this said, there is definitely a bit of work to be done in terms of item placement, meeting the showcase requirements and some general finicky things to watch out for when working in the CS. 

Firstly, this interior is a bit too small to meet the showcase requirements. As being able to use gridsnap to combine architecture pieces is a critical skill to interior development, we need showcases to be at a minimum two-stories in size; this is especially important with Redoran interiors, as the base hut structure doesn't require any gridsnapping at all. The best solution would be to swap the 'in_redoran_hut_01' shell out for an 'in_redoran_hut_topfloor_01' and then adding either a partitioned area on the lower floor (for example, if using in_redoran_hut_bfloor_01) or an adjacent room (for example, if using in_redoran_hut_bfloor_02). The important thing here is that you're using gridsnapping to snap these pieces together. Do this manually yourself, don't copy a shell from another interior, which brings us to the second point.

Copy/pasting from vanilla interiors isn't permitted, and is generally quite a bad idea as the placement of items in vanilla interiors was usually far below TR's standards. It also tends to create issues where misc items or containers have ownership assigned to them; for example, in your interior, the basket of kwama eggs and the redware platter are owned by vanilla NPCs, and exhibit pretty severe bleeding/floating when looked at closely. TR has very stringent standards for making sure objects don't clip into eachother or float in the air, this is another area that needs some work in your showcase. There are some specific exceptions for soft objects like sacks and pillows that can bleed a little, or objects that have to be bled to hide untextured holes or sit naturally like furn_de_roped_pole_01 or the rugs, but generally everything should lie flat on surfaces without floating above or clipping into the surface.

With regards to avoiding floating/bleeding, the Item Placement Guide in the TR Modder's Guide is a very good reference for the level of detail we're looking for; I know this can seem a bit overwhelming at first, but it's the sort of thing you get the hang of with practice. In most cases, getting selection box of objects to appear 'dashed' as described in the guide is enough to ensure good placement without too much scrutiny, but for objects without flat bases (like kwama eggs) you'll need to eyeball it. Play around with the camera and object movement/rotation settings under File > Preferences if you find you're having difficulty positioning things; I generally like to use around 0.25 for rotation and 0.5 for movement when doing the initial design of an interior and drop it down to around 0.1 for movement and between 0.1 and 0.01 for rotation when adjusting for bleeding/floating.

Some other things to pay attention to is making sure your file is clean; whenever you move an object in a cell other than your own, or hit "Save" instead of "Cancel" on an object's properties (the dialog that opens when you double-click an object), the CS creates a 'dirty' reference to that object which needs to be removed; the best way to clean your .esp is by opening it in TESAME and deleting anything you didn't personally create (for interiors, this will usually only be the interior cell and any custom objects you might have made; see this page in the Modder's guide for a tutorial on using it). Interior files should also only depends on Morrowind.esm, Tribunal.esm, Bloodmoon.esm and Tamriel_Data.esm, not TR_Mainland.esm or any other files; you can remove unintended dependencies in Wrye Mash.

I know this is all a lot to take in, but please do give it your best shot; this is a promising start to an interior, don't hesitate to ask if anything is unclear or you need help with anything. Make sure to join the discord (invite link here) if you haven't already, as that is where most of the development discussion takes place these days and there are plenty of experienced devs on hand to help you out. Hope to see an updated showcase from you soon!

UXO's picture
UXO
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Thanks for the feedback!
I decided to redo the entire cell from scratch, designing it more like a clothier shop this time. I tried my best to improve the bleeding and floating issues, added a second story using the gridsnap, tried my hand at cleaning out the file with TESAME, and added a pathgrid. I posted it on the discord and got some feedback, and tried to improve it from there as well (and also didn't copy/paste anything from other cells this time). 

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Binary Data AATESTCELL.ESP20.3 KB2020-02-28 01:15
sirrah's picture
sirrah
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Thanks for the work resubmitting this; another nice interior with good design and cluttering, the only thing that still needs work is the placement of objects. Keep in mind that you can drop things onto surfaces using the F key; for furniture and other flat-based objects, this is often enough to get a good placement without any further fiddling (but always give it an eyeball afterwards to make sure it’s placed correctly). Unfortunately, some clothing objects are among the most frustrating to place cleanly, but they do also have a bit more leeway in what is considered ‘correct’ placement. There are also a couple of inappropriate objects in the interior, but they’re not obvious (see the notes below). Give the below issues your best shot and I’ll review it again when you’re ready.

Clean: Yes.
Illegal to Sleep Here: Yes.
Lighting: Good, see notes.
Northmarker: Present.
Pathgrid: Needs work, see notes.

Bleeders:
active_de_p_bed_11 (into rug)
active_de_p_bed_13 (into rug)
barrel_01_empty (into ground, lift up and F it into place again.)
barrel_01_Ingredients (same as above)
barrel_01_pos (into wall)
com_sack_01_ingred (the one on the crate, bleeding a little too far into the crate)
common_belt_02
common_belt_03
common_belt_04 (both refs)
common_shoes_01 (trust the selection box on these)
furn_de_cushion_square_05
furn_de_p_bench_03 (into the floor, both refs)
furn_de_p_bench_04 (as above, all refs)
furn_de_p_chair_02 (into rug)
furn_de_p_table_06 (into rug)
furn_de_tapestry_10 (into floor, you'll need to scale it down a bit to make it fit)
furn_de_tapestry_11 (as above)
furn_de_log_01 (into log next to it)
furn_de_log_03 (into log below it)
furn_redoran_shelf2_01 (all three refs are bleeding into the wall a little, might need to rearrange slightly to make them fit)
light_de_candle_07_64 (two refs)
light_de_lamp_03 (into rug)
light_de_paper_lantern_01 (into rope)
misc_com_basket_01
misc_com_bottle_04
misc_com_bottle_08
misc_com_bottle_09
misc_com_bottle_14
misc_com_bottle_15 (all three refs)
misc_com_pitcher_metal_01
misc_com_redware_cup (all three refs)
misc_com_redware_plate (both refs)
misc_de_foldedcloth00 (all three refs)
urn_02_food (slightly into wall)
urn_04 (into rug)

Floaters:
chest_small_01_gold_25
com_basket_01_food (both refs)
com_basket_01_ingredien (both refs, one bleeding slightly into urn)
com_sack_01_ingred (the stack of three: the lowest one is floating, should be bleed slightly into the ground. Conversely, the ones above it should bleed a little less than they are)
com_sack_01_saltrice_5 (the bottom one under one of the bookshelves)
com_sack_02_chpfood3 (all of these should bleed slightly more into the floor so they rest naturally.)
com_sack_03_ingredients (the bottom one is floating very slightly, the selection box is a bit misleading for these. The top one is clipping the rug a little.)
common_amulet_01
common_amulet_02
common_amulet_03 (currently resting on one point, try to rotate it to get three points of contact)
common_glove_left_01 (Both floating; aim for three points of contact)
common_glove_right_01 (As above; there's also an extra one floating underneath the bookshelf.)
common_pants_01 (both refs, slightly caspering on one end; you can get away with bleeding these a bit, so get it as level as possible then lower it until you can't see any of the untextured underside.)
common_pants_02 (both refs, as above)
common_pants_03 (both refs, as above)
common_ring_01
common_ring_02
common_ring_03
common_robe_01 (both refs)
common_robe_02_rr
common_robe_03
common_robe_04 (the one on the bench; just barely floating on the thick end)
common_robe_05_a
common_shirt_01
common_shirt_02_r
common_shirt_03
common_shirt_04_a
common_shirt_05 (both refs)
common_shirt_06
common_shoes_01 (both refs on the bookshelf)
common_shoes_02 (the two refs towards the front of the bookshelf)
common_shoes_04 (the one next to the gloves)
common_shoes_05 (the one on the bookshelf at the back)
de_p_chest_02_empty (both refs)
furn_de_loom_01 (the selection box is misleading on this one, hit 'F' on it twice and it should sit correctly)
furn_de_p_chair_02 (three refs, misleading selection box)
light_de_candle_07_64
misc_clothbolt_03
misc_com_basket_01
misc_com_bottle_01
misc_com_bottle_02
misc_com_bottle_05
misc_com_bottle_11
misc_com_bottle_13
misc_com_broom_01 (the handle should rest against something, either the rim of the bucket or the wall.)
misc_com_redware_bowl
misc_de_bellows10
misc_de_bowl_orange_green_01 (needs to be bled to hide the cone-shaped base)
misc_de_bowl_redware_01 (as above)
misc_flask_04 (as above)
misc_spool_01 (all refs, except one which is bleeding)
pot_01 (cone-shaped base, should bleed a bit more.)
sc_paper plain

Notes:
First off, some notes on placement; generally speaking, it’s better for objects to bleed to hide caspering (untextured holes in the mesh) than float, but for things like amulets and gloves you’ll need to find a happy medium as it is usually impossible to completely hide the caspering without creating ugly bleeding. Regardless of the object, it’s usually best to initially aim to get the selection box sitting flat (creating the dashed lines described in the handbook tutorial) and then adjust after the fact if the object doesn’t lie flat in the selection box. Keep in mind that you can check the wireframe view by pressing ‘W’, for small objects this makes it a lot easier to position them on a single triangle. 

The *_01_a, *_01_e, *_01_u and *_01_z clothes are specific to the vanilla MW Ashlander tribes, these shouldn't be used in interiors without a clear justification (keep in mind, this is only the 01-numbered clothes, so common_shirt_04_a and similar named clothes are fine to use).

Replace the random_pos containers, these are level-scaled and should only be used in dungeons. On a similar note, keep in mind that the ingredient containers are alchemical ingredients, not food ingredients. It’s reasonably sensible that these could be used as dyes or in clothing production so fine to use in this interior, but thought I should point it out.

A couple of lights are overexposed at the moment (causing a bright green colour on nearby surfaces); sometimes you can get away with shuffling them around until it doesn't cause the bright green, but it's usually better to replace them with lower-powered lights (for example, light_de_candle_05_64 in place of light_de_candle_05)

Path grid should be expanded to cover the entire interior.

UXO's picture
UXO
DeveloperInterior Developer
Joined:
2020-02-24 00:47
Last seen:
1 day 20 hours ago

Thank you for the incredibly extensive write up! A complete list of all the bleeding and floating tiles was very helpful. I gave the objects listed my best shot, and I was able to correct the mistakes I'd made without a hassle for the most part. 

Some problems I did run into included:

  • I wasn't able to find the bleeding on one of the common_belt_04 refs
  • I wasn't able to find the bleeding on one of the com_basket_01_ingredien refs
  • I wasn't able to find the bleeding on furn_de_log_01 and furn_de_log_03
  • A few clothing objects I found very difficult to position correctly. In some instances, I removed the object altogether as I could not figure out how to place them properly whatsoever. (Will this potentially affect the clutter requirement?)

I also sorted out the issues unrelated to placement.

  • Removed the Ashlander clothes.
  • Replaced the random_pos containers with empty ones.
  • Replaced the light_de_candle_05 lights with light_de_candle_05_64 to remove the overexposed lighting.
  • Expanded the pathgrid to cover the entire first floor interior.
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Binary Data AATESTCELL1.ESP24.7 KB2020-03-03 06:17
sirrah's picture
sirrah
Senior DeveloperDeveloperInterior DeveloperReviewer
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9 hours 42 min ago

Sorry for the delay on this, you've done well fixing up a lot of the errors in the previous review but there are still quite a few issues with item placement to work through. You've got some good rotation on a few uneven surfaces in this int, so I'm sure you'll be able to work through these. With regards to the tricky clothing items you removed, no issue in terms of the showcase requirement as there's still plenty of clutter on uneven surfaces. With amulets especially, there is a bit of creative license required to get them to sit 'correctly', as the meshes for most of them are pretty terrible. Full review follows: 

Clean: Yes.
Illegal to Sleep Here: Yes.
Lighting: Good.
Northmarker: Present.
Pathgrid: Needs work, see notes.

Bleeders:

chest_small_01_gold_25 (rear right corner is bleeding)
com_basket_01_ingredien (both refs, see notes)
com_sack_01_ingred (the top two in the stack of three are still bleeding a little more than I’d like. The top one is also a bit off-centre, looks like it would fall backwards.)
common_belt_02, *_03 and both *_04s (see notes)
furn_de_cushion_square_05 (into ground)
furn_de_p_bench_03 (into wall)
furn_de_p_chair_02 (into rug)
furn_de_p_table_02 (rear corner bleeding slightly into wall)
furn_log_01 (into neighbouring furn_log_01, see notes)
furn_log_03 (into the furn_log_01 below it, see notes)
light_de_candle_05_64 (slightly into barrel)
light_de_candle_07_64 (all three, slightly into tables)
misc_com_bottle_04 (slightly, needs to be rotated flush with the table)
sc_paper plain (bleeding into table)

Floaters:

com_sack_01_saltrice_5 (the bottom one under one of the bookshelves)
com_sack_02_chpfood3 (all of these should bleed slightly more into the floor so they rest naturally.)
common_pants_03 (caspering visible on back side, very slightly)
common_pants_03_c (both refs)
common_robe_01 (the one on the table)
common_robe_02_rr
common_shirt_01 (front left corner caspering slightly)
common_shirt_02_r
common_shirt_03
common_shirt_04_a
common_shirt_05 (right side, very slightly)
common_shoes_01 (on the left-hand side bookshelf)
common_shoes_05
furn_de_p_chair_02 (just need to hit F again on one of these, the selection box is misleading. The other three are correctly placed)
light_de_paper_lantern_01 (top inside edge of the rope loop should rest against the rope)
misc_com_basket_01
misc_com_basket_01
misc_com_bottle_01
misc_com_bottle_02 (not flush with ground)
misc_com_bottle_05 (not flush with the table)
misc_com_bottle_09 (as above)
misc_com_bottle_11 (not flush with ground)
misc_com_bottle_15
misc_com_broom_01 (still needs something for the handle to rest against, easiest fix would be to move it and the bucket closer to the wall.)
misc_com_redware_cup (all three, not flush with table)
misc_com_redware_plate (both, as above)
misc_de_bellows10
misc_de_foldedcloth00 (not flush with table)
misc_flask_04 (should bleed a little more, and isn’t quite rotated flat against the table)
misc_spool_01 (all of them)

Notes:

Your pathgrid still doesn’t cover the lower floors, you should link the node at the top of the stairs with one at the bottom of the stairs, and then fill out the rest of the lower floor from there. The node to the left of the staircase is clipping the edge of the stairs as well, either reposition or add another node in between.

Regarding the bleeding belts; these should be placed similar to paper sheets, they need to be raised far enough that the backing of the belt is visible (see the lower belt in this pic) and not flickering when viewed from a distance, but not so far as to be visibly floating.

Here’s an image of one of the log bleeds, the corner is clipping the log below it as circled.

Here’s an image of the basket bleeds, it’s clipping in the circled areas.

UXO's picture
UXO
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1 day 20 hours ago

I am a fool!!!!!!!! It was only when I saw your screencaps that I realized I wasn't supposed to be using MGSO while using the CC. I turned it off and instantly saw the extent of all the mistakes I was making...
So I fixed them! I'm fairly certain I got most of them this time, since I'm actually using the right textures. (Expanded the pathgrid too, pretty sure I did that right as well.)
The only floater you listed that I couldn't find was common_robe_02_rr.

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Binary Data AATESTCELL1.ESP25.19 KB2020-03-11 04:20
sirrah's picture
sirrah
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2016-01-17 13:07
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9 hours 42 min ago

Ah, yes MGSO will definitely cause problems; best to always use a base install of MW for modding.

Really massive improvement here (obviously), there's only a few issues to look at still (but just barely enough that I'd prefer them fixed before I recommend for promotion).

Clean: No (try to get in the habit of always doublechecking this whenever you finish with a file)
Illegal to Sleep Here: Yes.
Lighting: Good.
Northmarker: Present.
Pathgrid: Good.

Bleeders:
com_basket_01_ingredien (still bleeding into neighbouring basket/urns as in the picture in my previous review).
common_belt_03
misc_de_bellows10

Floaters:
common_robe_02_rr (The left-hand side (as viewed from the front of the bookshelf) is floating; easy to see if you look at it from below, give me a ping on discord if you can't see it and I'll take a screenshot for you)
common_shirt_01 (the rear side is floating)
misc_com_bottle_01 (just barely, needs a couple more degrees of rotation)

Fix these few issues up and I've got no reservations about recommending you for promotion!

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UXO
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Thank you! Hopefully this is 100% complete now...
 

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Binary Data AATESTCELL1.ESP25.19 KB2020-03-16 23:36
sirrah's picture
sirrah
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Fantastic stuff, all errors have been fixed in the above file (and a clean version provided over Discord), so I'm happy to recommend you for promotion.

A lead will formally promote you shortly, after which you'll be able to claim interiors via the Claims Browser (you can filter for unclaimed interiors). Congratulations and looking forward to seeing your work!

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Jani
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1 day 6 hours ago

Promoted. Congratulations! I see you're already on Discord, so if you need any help regarding your new role, feel free to ask us!

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Why
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12 hours 15 min ago

Congratulations and welcome to the team!