Joinable DB??

Skurvy · Post by **Skurvy** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:55 pm

As there has been debate in the other DB threads, i thought we may as well have a poll on what the general feeling of the group is as to whether the Dark Brotherhood should be a joinable faction.

Ive set the poll for a 30 day duration, as most votes will be in by then anyway.

Skurvy

Seran · Post by **Seran** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:55 am

Good Idea Skurvy.

Yes: I can't see why it shouldn't be part joinable in Morrowind. It whould be restricted to the imperial cities and Black Light. And I don't dispute that Morrowind is Morag Tong turf. I just think DB have a pressense. And that it probobly whould have non local ppl. Local ppl whould probobly support MT.

And I looked, I get no indication that Helseth brought them into the province. Or anyone else at that, which supports an allready establised guild pressense. The fact that it was so many of them in Mournhold supports this also. Another indicator is: In the Morag Tong final quest you suppose to kill The Dark Brotherhood's Night Mother on Vvardenfell. And Morag Tong never gives the impression that the Dark Brotherhood is never a nosiance in Morrowind. On the contruary, they say that they are at war whit them.

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:57 am

yes all factions should be jionable.

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:40 am

Thank you for that second option.

While all [or almost] factions should be joinable, I feel that there shouldn't be anyone in Morrowind high enough in rank to accept new members. They're the fringe assassin group there - it's not as profitable as elsewhere in the Empire, and there's increased dangers since the Morag Tong is gunning for them. When the competition has the law on it's side, it's best to keep away.

Vagara · Post by **Vagara** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:30 pm

I vote No on this.

The Dark Brotherhood is not a faction of Morrowind like the others. If the PC wants to be an assassin, join the Morag Tong. I also don't understand why someone would want to join a faction that tries to kill them. The logic doesn't hold...

And it seems to me that Bethesda's intent with the DB is to have a mysterious threat waiting to kill the PC, not some new club to join...

The Dark Brotherhood doesn't have an "official" presence in Morrowind, although it is certain that operatives could be found in Morrowind.

The Dark Brotherhood are the enemy of Morrowind's Morag Tong and are hunted by them.

The Dark Brotherhood is not used by Dunmer Great Houses leaders (with the exception of the round-eared Helseth, who seems more Imperial than Dunmer...) It is used by some western nobles for eliminating problems without "tainting" the nobles' reputation.

Ben

Seran · Post by **Seran** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:04 pm

First of all I just want to say that I respect your choises on this.

But to me Vagara that kind of argument is the oposite of what we're trying to do here.
It might have been what bethesda have had in mind for the game, but whould that mean we whould not have them joinable? I'm more in the essence of Arcadea, every fraction should be joinable. Becus we're trying to create Tamriel and every fraction get they're members from somewhere. I for one see the issue as if we should have them joinable in Morrowind or not. And like I said before: It whould be plenty of issues why MT whouldn't be used, even though it's the preffered way. And that whould suddest a guild pressence for DB.

Vagara · Post by **Vagara** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:00 pm

Thanks, Seran.

I think that having the DB joinable in other provinces (probably in Cyrodiil, High Rock and others) would be okay.

Ben

Kothloth · Post by **Kothloth** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:26 pm

I've said it before, and I'm going to say it once again:

There shouldn't be a joinable DB faction in Morrowind! There *isn't* any reason for them to have even the smallest guild there! Morag Tong takes care of *all* the business, and the only possible DB presence we can have would be *very* small recon groups or something. Perhaps involved in a quest for an other faction. But they should certainly not be a faction within Morrowind! Outside, yes, but wait until Skyrim for that!

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:52 pm

i agree with Kothloth on the DB. no joining in Morrowind but in other provinces? go ahead!
oh and if you're a member of the Morag Tong then you shouldn't be allowed to join DB unless you've already been expelled 3 times and have been kicked out. same with the Thieves Guild and the Commona Tong (and with all the other 'conflicting' guilds)

Vagara · Post by **Vagara** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:18 pm

One serious (IMHO) problem with having lots of joinable factions: quests and advancement!

To advance up the ten levels to reach the top of a faction/guild, a PC will probably have to complete from 12 to 15 quests. From a modding standpoint, that's going to be a lot of quests that must be made...

So in addition to the quests that will be desired for existing factions/guilds, plus miscellaneous and major regional quests, we will quickly get into the hundreds of quests...

Sharpen your pencils!

Ben

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:19 am

I have 5 quests for the library thought out and about 20 more will be for the smuglers alliance, pluss a handfull for the rogue killer I created in black light.

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:16 am

Guilds are by far the hardest thing to make with TESCS. You people are crazy

.

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:37 am

Originally posted by Vagara
One serious (IMHO) problem with having lots of joinable factions: quests and advancement!

To advance up the ten levels to reach the top of a faction/guild, a PC will probably have to complete from 12 to 15 quests. From a modding standpoint, that's going to be a lot of quests that must be made...

So in addition to the quests that will be desired for existing factions/guilds, plus miscellaneous and major regional quests, we will quickly get into the hundreds of quests... ?(

Sharpen your pencils!

Ben

How about this: The big three Imperial Guilds [Fighters, Thieves, Mages] should have a presence in each province. You should be able to rise to Grandmaster in any province.

In just Vvardenfell, the Fighters Guild has about 25 quests. With about 5 quest-givers, that comes to about 5 quests per city. With around 10 major cities [those likeliest to have guildhalls], that's 50 quests for the Fighter's Guild alone, in just Morrowind. Not counting the 25 from Vvardenfell. Assuming those are average numbers [seeing how unpopular the Imperials are in Morrowind, they might even be conservative]. . .

75 quests per province = 675 quests in all Tamriel. For just the Fighters Guild.

Forget pencils; type 'em out.
Save some trees.
Hell, save the forest ;)

Seran · Post by **Seran** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:51 am

There whouldn't be that much.
It's just three imperial cities in the rest of Morrowind.
But you can't seriusly mean that you didn't know this was comming? It's a lot of quests in total however you look at it. Doing DB whouldn't be so hard. It's a limited guild however you look at it to.

Seran · Post by **Seran** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:02 am

But I can't see that anyone of you have given a good Lore wise explanation for Dark Brotherhood not to be in Morrowind.
I think it's a very real posibillity that it whould have a pressense. I can't see anything that whould suddest otherwise. Just saying Morrowind is where Morag Tong rules, isn't really a reason for DB not to have a pressense. For those of you who haven't done the MT quests. Do them and tell me what impression you get of the DB. I've done MT several times and I get the impression that they at war whit the DB all over the place.. Not excluding Morrowind.

RaJevir · Post by **RaJevir** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:31 am

Originally posted by Seran
There whouldn't be that much.
It's just three imperial cities in the rest of Morrowind.

Bad reasoning here - almost all of the imperial guild halls (in Vvardenfell) are in non-imperial towns. I don't see why it should be different in the rest of Morrowind.

You we're forgetting the imperial legion and the imperial cult.

Seran · Post by **Seran** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:55 am

Vvardenfell is suppost to be a spesial case. It's always been under quaranteene becus of Dagoth Ur. It's just the later years it's suppose to have been opened for others.

RaJevir · Post by **RaJevir** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:07 pm

Not really, the imperials are not coming to Morrowind to settle (no one in their right mind would do THAT...), so there would hardly be any imperial cities outside the occasional forts. The only ones would be small mining towns, ect. Most of these forts are located near towns since 1. it's convient, and 2. it suppresses the local populace. No one's goind to revolt with a well garrisoned fort a mile away.

Now, most of the guilds exist independantly of imperial rule (espically the Thieves guild), and go wherever they think they can gain the most political influence. They wouldn't pass up an oppurtunity to gain a bit of power in any of the dark elvin cities. And the thieves guild spreads like a plague to anywhere that the Cammona Tong doesn't drive them out

Now, if Vvardenfell was only opened recently, it would stand to reason that any imperial guilds would not be very well established. Therefore, the guilds on the mainland should be even more predominate than those on Vvardenfell.

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:59 pm

The DB might indeed ally themselves with the Thievfes guild and support it, if only to have a remote chance of standing up against the MT.

And as for the quests, well, we knew that, in an area almost a hundred times as big as Vvardenfell, there would be a hundred times as many quests (propably even more), didn't we? And a lot of new factions? It's not like we're doing just landscape and NPCs here - we're building a whole world!

Besides, we have at least one member more than eager to make up quests and storylines (right, Katse?)

. I would volunteer, too, and in fact am already collecting ideas for new factions and quests, including a possible main TR quest, like the MQ in Morrowind or Tribunal.

Cep · Post by **Cep** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:59 pm

I agree with Vagara's first post on this and I think it also applies to the Commona Tong as well.

They were not joinable before and should not be within TR it basically throws the concept of following lore right out the window.

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:07 pm

we should have about 10,000 quests when were done. 1,000 for each province.

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:15 pm

:alert:

:alert: :mb: :alert: :pop: :pop: :alert:
thats a lot . . . hey! its the first time i used emoticons! . . . but thats still a lot . . . or it?

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:08 pm

that's my idea not offcial from the admins ort the core.

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:17 pm

its really not that much when you think about it. vvardenfell has a several hundred excluding the quests in the main quest, and vvardenfell is much smaller than any of the provinces (well for most) . . .

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:55 pm

The more quests the better

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:42 am

There whouldn't be that much.
It's just three imperial cities in the rest of Morrowind.

I defend my position thusly:

Look at the old Arena map of Morrowind.
On Vvardenfell, you've got three cities, in the approximate locations of Balmora, Ald'ruhn, and Sadrith Mora. The three biggest cities in the district. Vivec [not on the map] is even larger.

The castle icons, in High Rock, all represent kingdoms [according to a Daggerfall book]. It stands to reason that the castle icon is used to denote cities that are exceptionally large. Larger than the big cities on Vvardenfell, barring possibly Vivec.

Now, what do these large cities have in common?
Vivec, Ald'ruhn, Sadrith Mora, and Balmora - all have the big three Imperial Guilds. It stands to reason that the large cities outside of Vvardenfell would have similar connections. And we know for a factthat there are Mages Guilds in Tear (Breathing Water) and Almalexia (dialog, Disappearance of the Dwarves, Trebonius).

And that's just looking at the castle-type cities. There's none on Port Telvannis, but they certainly have cities large enough to warrant the Guilds. And Silgrad, from what I understand it large enough to have the Guilds as well.

675 is a low number.

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:49 am

will be well in the high hundreds when we finish just Morrowind.

10 factions at least
200 quests

main quest

Plus what ever small quests we add plus in guilds, and factions and other stuff. allo or repettitiave ness though. Thier will have to be.

Post by **Haplo** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:43 am

10000 quests would get really boring really quick!!! It'd be quest after quest after quest after quest...about 100 hours of questing!!!! I was thinking more around 5000 or 3500...

RaJevir · Post by **RaJevir** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:23 pm

Let me think... there are maybwe 500 quests in Vvardenfell... Vvardenfell is about a quarter of Morrowind... There are 9 provences... so 500*4*9 = 18000 quests in order to maintain the same density of quests... But I thought that Morrowind had too little quests. I would say we should aim for more like 25000 or 50000 quests... That's a lot of quests...

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:59 pm

we may need more then 50000 it depens on how many guilds and new factions we create.

Seran · Post by **Seran** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:33 pm

this is like calculating how many statics you need to create morrowind. It is enough to say that it's a lot.
So please. Don't make this a task where you really can't see the end, and just focus on what needs to be done right now.

Kothloth · Post by **Kothloth** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:33 pm

Indeed. Making the DB joinable and thriving within the borders of Morrowind is a quite serious loreviolation. I suggest the work on making it joinable/place guilds should stop now, or the work made now might just be wasted.

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:44 pm

The DB should be a faction and joinable, but not very active in Morrowind (save for that large base below Mournhold, tÃ‚Â´here should be just small cells, maybe not even active, and hunted by the Morag Tong). They fill the MT niche in the other provinces (hired killers), and thus, they should be a faction *there*.

Seran · Post by **Seran** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:46 pm

Erm.. Koth.. I thought that was why we had this poll... To see how ppl saw the lore issue on this.
I don't belive it's a lore violation if we keep it in the independent and imperial cities. And keep it small.
I have seen no indication that it isn't like this.

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:34 am

Dialog:

One of the Dark Brotherhood's bases is in Assernerairan, which is beneath St. Olms Canton here in Vivec City. I must honorably execute the leader, Durus Marius, and report back to Grandmaster Eno Hlaalu.

Grandmaster Eno Hlaalu believes that Mehrunes Dagon cultists are protecting the Dark Brotherhood. I must speak with such a cultist, Carecalmo in Ashalmimilkala. I should offer him an ultimatum: Stop protecting the Dark Brotherhood or the Morag Tong will declare war on all cultists of Mehrunes Dagon.

The Dark Brotherhood in Vvardenfell keep their headquarters in the ruins of Ald Sotha, which is northeast of Vivec City. I must go there and honorably execute the local Night Mother of the Dark Brotherhood, Severa Magia. [note: LOCAL Night Mother]

Grandmaster Eno Hlaalu asked me to bring him the Belt of Sanguine Fleetness, held by Hrordis, a member of the Dark Brotherhood. She can be found in Pelagiad at the Halfway Inn.

I spoke with Miun-Gei and asked for contact in the Dark Brotherhood. Miun-Gei told me to speak with Tsrazami, a Khajiit who is also in the Market Canton. I should report her name to the Grandmaster. [note: the DB apparently aren't too racist]

Apparently, the Dark Brotherhood does not have a large base of operations here on Vvardenfell, but has a very large contingent in Mournhold.

I've been told that the Dark Brotherhood is rumored to have a base in the ruins of Old Mournhold, accessible through the sewer system in the Great Bazaar. I've been warned that I enter there at my own peril.

I have killed Dandras Vules, the leader of the Dark Brotherhood in Mournhold. [note: Vvardenfell doesn't have a large base of operations, but has a Night Mother. Mournhold is bigger, and doesn't. Conclusion: The DB presence in Mournhold is foreign]

I've found a Dark Brotherhood contract that marks me for execution. The contract was written on the order of ""H."" This should give me some clue as to who wants me dead. I should report my findings to a guard immediately.

I understand you had some problems with the Dark Brotherhood. An interesting group...and usually rather effective. I'm surprised you're still alive. Perhaps you have potential, or they sent incompetents.

You would dare enter the lair of the Dark Brotherhood? Very well. We will complete our mission here and now. A speedy death to you, %PCName. [note: "our mission" - is killing you the only reason they have such a presence in Mournhold? The only reason they're in Mournhold at all?]

We understand you were visited by some Dark Brotherhood assassins. A regrettable occurrence. They are a difficult lot, but they do have their usefulness. I'm certain that will no longer be a problem for you.

If you know, then it is over... I swore an oath to the Dark Brotherhood, but I have learned that their ways not as honorable as the Morag Tong.

I assume you've heard of the Morag Tong? And of the Dark Brotherhood? They have their purpose in Morrowind.

Perhaps you have been attacked. That's bad business. I don't know who it is that wants you dead, and I don't want to know. Dark Brotherhood activity here on Vvardenfell has been almost unheard of, but I know they have a large contingent back on the mainland. [probably refers to the group in Mournhold]

The Dark Brotherhood have a long and interesting history, though a great deal of it still lies shrouded in mystery. What is certain is that they are deadly and remorseless. Steer clear of them at all costs.

Not a group of people to be taken lightly. Their reach is far, and their methods well-honed. Take care when dealing with them.

They are usually a very effective group. Not always, though, I have recently learned. [Helseth would have more experience dealing with them, having spent so much time in the west]

You say you've killed the local Dark Brotherhood leader, have you? And he spoke of his ""liege"" before he died? Well, I can tell you that the new king, Helseth, has been rumored to use the Dark Brotherhood's services. If he's the one who's after you, you'd better investigate it immediately.

We are still at war with the Dark Brotherhood. Do not forget that.

The Dark Brotherhood rebelled against the Morag Tong many years ago. Since then they have been our enemy. I want you to speak with Miun-Gei, a Mehrunes Dagon cultist who has an Enchantment shop in the Lower Waistworks of the Foreign Quarter. I believe he knows of a contact in the Dark Brotherhood. When you have taken a name from him, bring that name to me. [Again, reference to Mehrunes Dagon cultists]

The Dark Brotherhood is a depraved perversion of the ancient law-abiding order of the Morag Tong. They do not advertise their services or their creed, but they are an outlawed secret society of assassins with an evil reputation, and are often associated with Daedra worship. The Morag Tong is the sworn enemy of the Dark Brotherhood.

Many have fought in our private war against the Dark Brotherhood and the cult of Mehrunes Dagon. Now the Night Mother of the Dark Brotherhood in Vvardenfell has fled to the ruins of Ald Sotha.

Worshippers of Mehrunes Dagon here in Morrowind are sheltering members of the Dark Brotherhood. I want you to speak with one of these cultists, Carecalmo, and give him an ultimatum.

The Dark Brotherhood is operating here in Morrowind. I want you to contact the Dark Brotherhood.

The Morag Tong are honorable, law-abiding executioners and assassins. They hate the Dark Brotherhood, the outlaw Western assassins guild.

The Dark Brotherhood is ready to make their move on the Morag Tong. I hear the Night Mother herself has come to Vvardenfell.

The uninformed associate the Morag Tong with the Dark Brotherhood, a Western assassins guild. But the Morag Tong is the sworn enemy of the Dark Brotherhood, and they couldn't be more different in practice or principle.

Somewhere in Ald Sotha you will find Severa Magia, the Night Mother of the Dark Brotherhood in Vvardenfell. [Again indicates the regional nature of the Night Mother's influence]

Books:

Scotti had wondered how long it would be before the Dark Brotherhood was brought in for final negotiations. [this is in Cyrodiil]

The first mention of the Dark Brotherhood that I have found is from the journals of the Blood Queen Arlimahera of Hegathe. [this is in Hammerfell]

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:59 am

In my opinion, the DB should NOT be joinable in Morrowind.
1.They're way too tied up in the Tribunal MQ and the Morag Tong quests.

2.Even in the quotes above they're mentioned as the 'Western' assassin's guild.

3.Since I believe we're not messing with the original Morrowind, Tribunal, or Bloodmoon content too much then we cannot use the Night Mother or the leader, what's-his-name as part of the joinable DB. Who would authorize the joining and assign quests? With its leaders dead, could the DB maintain a high-rank presence within Morrowind?

4.Based on their presence on Vvardenfell and in the Tribunal expansion, and on lore, it seems unlikely the DB would have more than 3 or 4 bases of operation in all of the TR portion of the province. And small bases at that.

5.The DB would be hard-pressed to find work in Morrowind. The MT gets its writs from all folk, but the DB would only even be considered an option by desperate, rich folk with significant Western influences (i.e. Helseth). With less than half-a-dozen quests available, it could hardly be considered a viable joinable faction.

Based on these arguments I conclude that any joinable DB would have to be based OUTSIDE of Morrowind province. Perhaps in the West it is as commonly used as the Morag Tong. There might still be quests that bring the player into Morrowind, but in order to join he/she would have to travel to the secret DB headquarters in Cyrodiil or something, a la MT. Let's finish this province before we waste any more typing on the subject, folks. Of course, this is only my opinion.

Sniper4 · Post by **Sniper4** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 4:11 am

I have found both enough good things as well as enough bad things about making the DB playable, that I am officially neutral here.
Good:
1. More fun, blood-filled assassination quests for the whole family.
2. Members could get better DB armor (both in looks and in stats) for being a higher rank.
3. It will make game play more open-ended if ALL guilds and factions are joinable.
4. Possible fun war opportunity with Morag Tong.

Bad:
1. What about if the player has already joined the Morag Tong!?
2. Um...didn't they just try to kill me?
3. Would there honestly be THAT many DB members in Morrowind!?
4. Bethesda didn't intend for this originally. (Not a problem in my opinion, but to many others it is.)

There ya have it. Choose carefully.

Rishanor · Post by **Rishanor** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:05 pm

If I remember well, the Dark Brotherhood was joinable in Daggerfall, but they approached you instead you would approach them. This would happen after you had killed several people in houses and streets or so.

I agree that in Morrowind the Dark Brotherhood shouldn't be joinable, simply because they cannot trust the people there since the Morag Tong is so respected in the culture.

Nevertheless, in other provinces this is not the case, so there it could be applied. However, I can imagine that the honesty of the Nords would not allow such a faction, since disputes would be fought over man to man....

[edit]
Thinking of it, it should be possible to put some quests in which the PC is asked to be an assasin. After completion or upon accepting the quest, he could be approached by the DB to pass a certain test as an option to join the DB.

A similar thing may also work for the Thieves Guild in the other provinces, since there they are not likely to be so public as on Vvardenfell.
[/edit]

drumfreak89 · Post by **drumfreak89** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:40 am

sorry to bring up an extremely old topic but i think it would represent an ethical choice on the PCs part.
think about it for a sec. you can choose to be a bad guy for once. There shouldn't just be good guilds and factions in TR.
creating "bad-guy" factions would be a refreshing move. if you dont agree with them then just don't join them. but if you do want to the choice is there.
just a little somethin to chew on

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:45 am

The verdict is not in Morrowind. Would conflict with the Tribunal quest line. Its as if you went round slaughtering the Redoran Councillors and then asked to join.

We can explain why other provinces would have it by saying that its made up of seperate groups for the provinces with people all vying for power. If you have offed half of the Morrowind group then the others are going to be thrilled