[FCG]: Boats and ships

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Ayedail
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Post by Ayedail »

at least i think the player should be able to travel by boat, just like in morrowind... maybe on the same way.
and i wondered, if someone knows the world of warcraft system of traveling by boat, which is that you step onto the boat and the boat ITSELF (+player) sails away to 1 specific location and returns. that would be really awesome, that you sail around the islands and can see the coasts. is it hard to develop something like this? i have seen a sailable boat mod on PES allready but that one was commanded by the player and it could sail through land... some problem with collision i guess... but think about it, a boat that sails a specific way from city to city
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Post by Macar »

That's not TR.
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Post by sapien »

after looking at the concepts here for the boats , the reed one especially, i think i could draft up something to fit , taking into hand all the ideas in the concepts already here !

found these interesting images

[img]http://members.cox.net/ancient-sites/inca/10LakeTiticaca_large_reed_boat.JPG[/img]


http://www.askadavid.org/photos/photos44/twoheadsonboats.jpg

sorry the second image is too large
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lb003g0676
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Post by lb003g0676 »

THAT IS AWESOME


Great bloody find sapien. Wow, that is a superbious picture,a nd design.
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Post by Fairwater »

I like it a whole Lot!!
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Post by Harke the Apostle »

I've been on one of those, like the one in the second picture. I think if you scaled it up, it would make a great warship concept.
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Post by Nalin »

Harke the Apostle wrote:I've been on one of those, like the one in the second picture. I think if you scaled it up, it would make a great warship concept.
Aside from it being made out of reeds and screwed if any type of flame touches it (Unless of course it's been blessed by the great octopuss-headed one in the deeps with 100% resist fire)...but then what are other ships made of...wood...not the most flame retardent material choice either :)

I don't see it as a battle orientated vessel. It is a lovely boat though - Good findings!
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Post by Jale »

Well wood is actually really resistant to flames because although it's great fuel, there is little contact with air. Reeds on the other hand go up like kindling...because they are kindling.

So while the ship would be great for general moving stuff around, you would have to convert it to a wooden design to make a plausible warship.
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Post by Sload »

Magick resin.

Nyah!
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Post by Harke the Apostle »

Non wiki-ers look away.

While wood is indeed fuel, in architecture its fire-resistent properties are considered to be more benificial than those of reinforced concrete.
Reed ships do not last very long, as the reeds suck up water when they dry out. When they are young, the reeds have other lighter than water juices inside them. This probably means they wouldn't be very easy to ignite by an ordinary flame arrow.

The Egyptians actually traded their reed boats in for wooden ships that where very similar in design to their reed predesessors, and to those in Morrowind.
Reed ships can be built quickly and easily if there is enough labour around. The drawback is, they don't last very long.
Wooden ships last much longer and are easier to keep 'in ship shape'. The drawback is, they are much more labor intensive, and require their builders to be artisans.

Also, wood isn't always available, everywhere, and in warmer climes most of its material properties (but not its strenght) decay rapidly. (This is mostly the reason that the ancient Egyptians didn't use wood as much as more northern civilizations did. It's also why those longbows that they were so fond of in Britain and France were made in Spain but not used there).

IRL reed ships have been used as warships, and they were even sea-worthy. I don't recall if they were Inka or Aztec or Maya ships, but they sailed nicely around the coast of south and meso-America.

Now what's the point in al this 'wiki-ing'? Surely this has no importance for a fantasy game?

The point is, if you want reed ships you'd have to have a lot of reeds growing around the harbor too.

[edit] Did I say 'wiki-ing'? I meant 'creating a backstory for the game concepts'.
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Post by Jale »

Sload wrote:Magick resin.

Nyah!
In Hammerfell? FOR SHAME!!! :P Everyone KNOWS they hate magick.
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Post by Macar »

He meant magic as in: lets not bother comming up with a scietific explination or a RL equivalent.
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Post by Jale »

No lets not bother with that, let's just assume that its silly to have a material which anyone in their right minds knows wouldn't be suitable for a warship involved in warships, because the players would go:

'Hey its a warship made out of straw? What the hell? That would so set on fire.'

A trade ship or fishing ship made of reeds: fine. That design in general: fine. Reed warships: silly and no.
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Post by lb003g0676 »

It's not straw it's like a wicker design, and it's covered in resin (not magick resin I'm sure). Anyway The resin stops the reeds from absorbing water, and therefore they are far more durable, it prevents it setting alight (as the resin is not flammable) and it also hardens it in the position it is woven into.


Now if anyone finds more problems with that, then they are ignorant, or just don't like the idea. Take your pick and state your point.
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Post by Sload »

Jale wrote:
Sload wrote:Magick resin.

Nyah!
In Hammerfell? FOR SHAME!!! :P Everyone KNOWS they hate magick.
o rly? FOR SHAME!!! :P Everyone SHOULD KNOW they think necromancy, illusion and summoning, are evil and they think using magick in battle is for wimps and they are not naturally inclined to learn nudrihi, much prefering their own magick of yokuhi which is illustrated by Saban in that game you love to use to prove that they hate hate hate hate all kinds of magick.

And besides, its a basket woven of special Hammerfedlian reeds, not straw. Plebe.
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Post by Jale »

Sure you can fit all that on a label to explain why they have wicker warships?

Because otherwise the players are gonna get confused.

And besides, all evidence points to them having wooden warships, from Redguard.

What exactly would reed warships add anyway? And the difference between straw, reeds and wicker is so infinitesimally small there is little need to make a distinction: its all hollow lignin, and that shit burns. Resins tend to be be even more flammable, and unless you can say why they would go to the trouble to make a magic resin to safeguard a reed ship rather than just make one out of wood then whats the point.

And yes of course they have more reeds than wood around, but that's why the trade ships could be reeds rather than wood. No self-respecting principality is going to have a reed ship, they would import wood.
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Post by El Scumbago »

Small fishing boat design.

[url=http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fishingboat1ue6.jpg][img]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8461/fishingboat1ue6.th.jpg[/img][/url]
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Post by Macar »

I really like that- great orthos. It looks middle eastern and western to me.

I think that more ritch colors than baby blue would me more characteristic, however.
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Post by Sload »

it looks BORING
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Post by Macar »

So do the shrubs of Goldmoor. I like it.
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Post by The guar man »

What of this sort of design...based on egyptian war galleys.

Or perhaps this.
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Post by Nalin »

I really like the second one - with a yoku god on the front it'd look very nice.
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Post by Lutemoth »

Sload wrote:it looks BORING
I don't know, I can see this as one of the colourful ships docking in Sentinel waters. I'm quite intrigued with the egyptian ship, as could be manipulated beautifully
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Post by El Scumbago »

I kinda agree with Sload's rejection, not because it looks boring, but mainly because it's a semi-western design with an eastern sail. I could see it in areas where imperial influence is strong, like GM, or as Lutemoth said, in Sentinel, which is a meeting point for many cultures.

About these two ship pictures, I've argued before that they are ancient. Since Cyrodiil is a regular medieval place, we can't just push Hammerfell a millenia back in time. Imo, we should use these biremes/triremes as a base for a hybrid ship.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

Biremes and Triremes are pissy little boats good only for ramming other ships. Quinquiremes, sexiremes, heptiremes, octeres - now those are galleys. But don't compare to the fourty ships of the Ptolemies. Just a shame that all of these ships had become obsolete by the 3rd Century. My point being that it is a bit crap to dismiss the Egyptian boats for being anachronistic to the in-game equivalent medieval era and then suggest pissy, rather useless for anything but warfare, ships anachronistic to the in-game equivalent medieval era.

If you want the medieval angle, use a dhow.
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Post by El Scumbago »

Or keep the boats we already have and keep our sanity.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

Sounds good. Are there many ships though? Because it would suck to see the same ship twice in a harbour.
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Post by The guar man »

I nvr meant to use those specific ships but rather take ideas from them as they are early eastern block ships or if u want look up persian ships after the Roman era.
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Post by El Scumbago »

Scum & Co. Shipyards proudly present the latest achievements of their drawing boards.

This ship is actually a combination of medieval western and eastern vessel parts, with the second easily spotted on the main sail and hull shape, while some minor elements are totally imaginary, according to my understanding of Raga culture. Btw, don't mind the windows, I just couldn't come up with something else at 4 in the morning.

Here's some info about each picture;
The left one is the first I drew. Tried to make it look 'aggressive', like a sprinter who's about to hit the track. Basic transport ship, very fast and ideal for covering short distances, but definately not the kind of vessel one would take to the open ocean.
The middle one is a light alteration of the previous, essentialy the same, but with two large windows standing out of the hull's bottom (well, you can only see one of them from this perspective) and a large net mounted on the front. I was thinking of the archaelogical society while making this, as they could use such a vessel to sweep the sea floor clean of interesting items.
The right one is again similar to the previous two, but has undergone many changes on its hull and cabin, as well as the curved decorations. The purpose here was to stay true to the feeling of the basic design, but increase the eastern flavor of the ship. Therefore, among other things, it now has a really large butt, the classic "throne" style of medieval eastern ships.

The pic beneath these three is what the ship was like when only the hull and cabins where done. I thought I'd upload this in case someone likes it but wants to change certain things.

There aren't any other perspectives for this ship yet. If our bigshots decide it's good to get modelled, I'll make a nice glass of frappe and gladly work on the other planar views and details.


Come to think of it, these ships are similar to the fishing boat I posted a couple of days ago. Are they by any chance boring too?

[url=http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feluke12ef2.jpg][img]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9986/feluke12ef2.th.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feluke13jz9.jpg][img]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5761/feluke13jz9.th.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feluke21td6.jpg][img]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/653/feluke21td6.th.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feluke11km9.jpg][img]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2847/feluke11km9.th.jpg[/img][/url]
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Post by Macar »

I dont think so- but they look like real ships which appears to not be what people here want.

IMO the portholes and the large windows dont look period. And the archaeological ship is a little too much for me.
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Post by Nalin »

I really like the third one. Nice and curvy, I could see that as being a yokudan influenced vessel - especially the back of it - forgive my lack of "maritime wordage" The sails look great to me too.
Boring? No.
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Post by CleverClothe »

That doesn't look like a real ship clone to me, so that is good. I also like the 3rd design the best.
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

3rd one, yes. slap some good textures on there and it looks like a perfect imerialised redguard ship. we need some more typical stuff imho, and this fills that gap without bieng overly imperial or typical.
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Post by Harke the Apostle »

[url=http://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cogra3.jpg][img]http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/8923/cogra3.th.jpg[/img][/url]
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Post by El Scumbago »

So... is this 'officialised'? If yes, confirm so that I begin working on the other 2D views. Also, I have some stuff in mind for totally RL incompatible vessels, but they're products of a very disturbed mind (my sister's to be exact). I'll upload a couple of quick sketches when I get the chance.
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Post by kristiantheconqueror »

Hey, I've been reading through this post, and I'd like to point out a couple of things;

1. a lot of the ships that you guys are posting look really top heavy, and while physics isn't exactly gonna be a problem for static objects its still going to look unnatural if a ship has 20ft above the waterline and 5 feet bellow, especially with the really thin hulls that you've been showing on here.

2. Concerning galles; gallies were used for a really long time in history for a couple of reasons; they were fast, agile and could out-perform traditional sailing ships (even into the 19th century) if the wind was light. I think it would be almost sure that some redguard pirates would employ these ships, probably crewing them with slaves taken from merchant ships.

3. Concerning reed boats; reed boats are cheap and not too terribly durrable, and since they don't require that much skill to make then you could probably count on there being a few poor fishers using them.
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Post by El Scumbago »

We are aware of a good amount of historical facts, but there are two additional factors that determine our judgement on what's going to be used.
The first is to avoid copying reality. Hammerfell, although close to reality as the rest of Tamriel, is a fantasy place. Although real stuff are used as inspiration and/or bases for concepts, the final stuff need to be a sensible mix of reality and fantasy, with the latter being more dominant as well as close to the official lore.
The second factor is the workload. We'd love to have all sorts of different vessels and all sorts of models generally, but this is impossible even for Bethesda, let alone a modding community like us.
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Post by sapien »

wow sorry guys havent been around in ages !
wont get into it , but changed jobs ,and moved to the city ! getting internet at home soon so will be more active again

scumbag i like your third ship design as well!
looks really good , the hull design is nice and could easily be a redgaurd ship as LADY N mentioned.

Ill get drawing up some ship ideas soon , want to contribute as much as possible

nice work though keep it up
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Post by Sload »

why is this still going on?

dont we know what it looks like already?
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Post by aro101 »

We do, Ships aren't something we need more concepts for. All they need is a claim and a modeller.
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