Other cities

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blackbird
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Other cities

Post by blackbird »

Will every big city have (those on the map of Noirgrim) a different architecture style?
And the villages in the Goldmoor region, will they have also the same housemodels as Rihad?
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

each region will have different architecture. not all regions will have their own architecture most likly, something like the totambu forest wich has no big cities will probably use reused archtecture.

goldmoor villages will use goldmoor architecture set, wich is also being used for rihad and taneth
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Post by Noirgrim »

As it stands now (which might change after we finish GM and see where we are) the same basic buildings will be used all over Hammerfell, but will get a retexture job depending on what region they are in. However, each city will have a handfull of uniqe buildings specific to that city.

Unless Bethesda gets bored with Fallout 3 and comes and helps us with the thousands of meshes we need, I don't see this stance changing.
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Post by Fairwater »

I would like to see arch change per region but i am in the same sad but agreeing stance as noirgrim...... i mean first off we dont even have concepts let alone models.....yea....i would love to have more architecture, but it i guess it would require a whole bunch of work from CA right now, i personally would devote alot of time to modeling them so i am willing to believe that we could model them......

Edit i would never make 32 homes again.... maybe 4-5 mc and 2-3 uc and then they can appear in the town with some duplications.


I can tell you for fact though that we will only have one LC let....the one that is being made right now
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

at the very least we need new crown buildings. this set is way too imperial to be crown, and i think it would realy break the atmosphere and look of HF to make it all one set

*me goes out on an epic search for a modeler*
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Post by Fairwater »

dont worry about the modeling.... i mean seriously....if there was a ca artist who could whip up a whole new arch set.... i bet you i find some one to model it....or i would do it myself.
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Post by Noirgrim »

Just realize, for each Arch set we do, we multiply the work exponentially. New Arch set =:

new concepts
new meshes
new exterior textures
new interior sets
new furn
new interior textures

So, a new Arch set is a huge deal... as we are finding out with our current set.
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Post by Fairwater »

you are right but remeber we would already be doing new exterior textures, and new furn is not a must. I mean i would still like to entertain the idea. Expecially if we get some nice concepts
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

i was thinking that the furn would be used all over the province. i see no reason to make more as both MW and OB did it this way.

yes, i realise that this is a huge deal. but i want to make hammerfell the very best we can. if we wanted to minimise work we could have retexed anvil and used goldcoast stuff, but that wouldnt be hammerfell. i think that the work is well worth it, especialy since we realy are learning a lot from this. i think the proces of creating all these models is realy giving us a preview of what we need to do later in a very positive way.
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Post by Jale »

I think it will be the little things that make the difference anyway. Were we to pool all the cities in morrowind that are constructed from Velothi bits, each still has an identity, especially considering retextures.

Also some judicious use of the scale feature always adds to variation
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Post by Noirgrim »

Lady Nerevar wrote: but i want to make hammerfell the very best we can
Easier said than done. But if it came down to having a half done Hammerfell, or a complete Hammerfell that uses the same arch set but retextured, I'd always go for the latter.
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Post by Jale »

Personally I think its quite easy to explain away samey architecture. They are, after all, a race built mainly around physical pursuits, not scholarly. It's not as though they would have many architects as it is, so I guess a 'tried and true' approach to building would be appropriate.

Thus I give this a lore tick
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

how shall we explain that every game and referance before this used compleatly different architecture?

at any rate, i think we should just focus on GM for now. getting the PR thread up should get us some more helping hands.
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Post by Noirgrim »

Lady Nerevar wrote:how shall we explain that every game and referance before this used compleatly different architecture?
The same way that every other game that has taken place in the same area has had different arch as well?
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

where? all that there was is arena, and arena is not a source. Daggerfall, Redguard, and the new PGE are however.

fundamentaly i think we should focus on GM righnow.

PS. if it came down to making half of hammerfell fantasitc or all of hammerfell average, then i would make only half of hammerfell. im a quality over quantity person all the way.
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Post by Macar »

This is realy speculation at this point- I think both sides of the coin will enjoy having different sets for each region if it's possible.

Right now- we should think about nothing beyond GM, if you ask me (which you dont).
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Post by Noirgrim »

Everything is nothing only half done.

No one wants to play a mod that is half complete. Hell, I want to see Hammerfell perfect and complete. But unless this project does a complete 180, I don't see it happening.
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Post by Harke the Apostle »

I'm sure the modders can put one architecture set to good use. One city might have canals, another be built over a gorge and a third could have Skyrim architecture mixed in.
One architecture set doesn't necessarily mean one kind of architecture.
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Post by El Scumbago »

This autumn, you can count me in as a modeller. Done with the economical sciences and tedious BS, and as I already have a good job, I'm getting into modelling, animation and all the cool stuff I love but have been unable to do for so long. All of Hammerfell looking the same is certainly not what I'd like to see. It's not TR.
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Post by Sload »

blech retextures suck

are you gonna retex the trees too?
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Post by Jale »

Deserts don't need trees.

Cmon we are experts of versatility now! Just think of the different things we achieved through relatively few sets in the Morrowind engine. We need what, 8 towns from one set? Well out of Morrowind Sets we had:

Redoran - 13
Telvanni - 15
Indoril - 11
Hlaalu - 11
Imperial - 7

And that's rough, cos I cant be bothered to be conclusive.

As Harke said, its how you use it. Most Italian buildings look the same, but you can easily tell these apart:
Rome:
[img]http://library.thinkquest.org/2838/rome2000.jpg[/img]
Venice:
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/13/Small_canal_-_Venice.jpg/300px-Small_canal_-_Venice.jpg[/img]
Milan:
[img]http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/places/images/photos/photo_lg_milan.jpg[/img]

So I'm pretty sure retextures and creative use will be sufficient.
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Post by Tyrion »

You forgot velothi, but I dont remember how many towns we did in that.
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Post by Elfane »

Jale, those images of italian/roman architecture may look alike but not the same. A re-tex would not be sufficient.
Jale wrote:Deserts don't need trees.
They may not need them but they have them.

Noirgrim mentioned the amount of work needed for a new set, and it is true. We would need to construct new meshes, textures etc.

In my opinion the workload is worth it, if we can we should.
I can't talk for any other department than CA and my self, and I could make it my mission here at TR to design new structures, buildings and arch sets. From my point of view it can be done. And after that it is a question about commitment from the meshers. I can't do it alone though (specially with a third family member on the way) but I sure can conceptualize thoughts and ideas of the different regions. What happends later is without my reach.

I may have said to much, but it something that I stand by and will try my best to do. That is if it's something that the TR community wants.
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Post by Nichevo »

I was just sitting here thinking. It should be possible to build on existing meshes, as modelers would use several pieces to put together a house which can be altered ( think alcoves, windows, frames and just überness like in the italian pictures ). The basic shapes of the classes can be reused and new features given to make each architecture stand out from each other. We might not get the same diversity, but overall the architecture would feel more familiar and it'd be easier/less work.
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Post by Elfane »

That could be one way of doing it, but we still need (in my opinion) at least 4 more sets.

BTW should'nt this discussion be moved to the internal discussion instead?
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Post by Haplo »

I think it might be interesting for the public to see a bit of how we work, and glean a tidbit of information otherwise not available to them in such depth...ever. If the conversation takes any turns of secrecy or importance or foul language, we can hide it, but for now I'd like to leave it Public.
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Post by Jale »

Elfane wrote: we still need (in my opinion) at least 4 more sets.
We don't need more sets, we simply want them. And 4 is ridiculous as it is, since that would only make the duplicate sets more obvious...why should some towns get unique and others get the same?

Personally I would wish for at the highest level:

-Crown Set
-Forebear Set (which we have)
-One unique landmark for each city

Landmarks are more important I think. The Rihad Lighthouse, the Sentinel Palace, the Hegathe conservatorium...one gem per city would, I think, be enough to set apart the cities.

Also a few modular add-ons for each city could go a way to distinguishing them. Window boxes or bar railings on windows, Imperial-style sidewalks, or Roman-esque raised ones. Small touches, with relatively minimal effort, can probably make as much distinction between towns as trying to redefine the set each time while making it look at least similar.

Remember: each Cyrodiilic town was a mishmash of one or more styles. Hammerfell is a more unified aesthetic.
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Post by kebra »

Nichevo wrote:
It should be possible to build on existing meshes.
Don't think so, that's one of the reasons i don't modd for OB, it's not modular at all.
To try, i did 4 cities (one in shivering style), and really it's too limited to build complete big cities.
I will maybee follow the same way as El Scumbando.

Jale, i would like dreaming with you, i have no real idea of the amount of work needed for a complete set, but, each time it has collapse.
Maybee do, in a short time, a little Int-Ext set for a village for exemple, and proove your volunty to go to the end of such a long job to kill owers doubts.

A question, the set will be modular or is it better to work directly the models (really i don't now what thinking)
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Post by Jale »

Dreaming? I said create one other set, MAXIMUM! How is that dreaming? If my greatest aspirations only stretch to having two sets, how can I be considered to be dreaming?

One unique model for each city is really not ambitious either. We already know we will have unique banners, and probably a statue for each town. Extending this to a single model is entirely doable.

I don't know what you are trying to say when you say 'volunty', but my computer cannot run the OB CS, so that's why I can't mod for oblivion. However I would gladly do some of te modelling...I did the mesh of the stirk statue, after all. I just haven't learned the ins and outs of texturing, so would not presume to be able to just launch into a whole architecture set.
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Post by kebra »

Sorry man, badly understud (again).
I was speaking about the will needed to finish such a set.
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Post by Nichevo »

Just to clarify; I'm not saying we should use the set as if it was modular ( which indeed like vanilla oblivion, it isn't), but when the meshes themselves are made. When you create meshes you make it out of several primitives, sections etc. These I believe can be slightly altered, put together in another ways and reassembled saving work. The set of meshes used in the CS itself need not be modular.
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Post by El Scumbago »

Initially, we were aiming at different architecture per region, which equals to 4-5 different sets (I don't know the exact number of regions in HF).
Three different sets, one for each faction, is fine as well and quite TES-like, since that was Morrowind's style.
But then, how do we implement the idea about getting more Raga as we proceed?
I'm still all for the regional architecture thing and support it, since we've got at least 4 years ahead of us before TESIV hits the market.
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Post by Jale »

I think it being more Raga is a texture business really. Like the further down the Raga-scale you go, the more accentuated raga emblems appear in the towns, compared to more simple styles in less ostentatious places. Also changing how refined building techniques get. So, in Rihad we have stucco, which is in places quite badly cared for. Sentinel could probably be pristine stucco, while somewhere like Hegathe would fit as being more blocky and stony, and somewhere else more bare bricks...presumably, the older the town, the less refined the buildings will be.

Sounds and music play an important part, like being able to hear snatches of Raga speech in more raga towns, and having less orchestral, more accentuated music.

Ultimately I think the main burden of Raga-ness falls on NPCs, in what they say, in how there schedules run.

Very little will have to do with the actual architecture I don't think. It wasn't like the most alien, fitted-to-its-environment architecture (Redoran) was owned by the most 'Dunmer' of houses. Indoril architecture was fairly subdued and not so obviously Dunmer, but they were probably the most hardcore Dunmer house.
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Post by CleverClothe »

One set per faction sounds like a great ballance.

One per city/region would be amazing but too much for our goals, just like the large vs small scale decision at the beginning of the project.
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

the large vs. small was decided party because large was physicaly imposible due to engine flaws.

the way i see it, we make sets for the factions with unique stuff per city. if we have resources at any time to make more then we go ahead.
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Post by blackbird »

Perhaps this is the wrong topic, but will the housesets be made as a whole or in pieces, like the indoril and common set in MW?
In cities like old ebonheart or Almalexia, there is a large variety of buuldings, because of the many house pieces. You could have large manor building, with a small house building on the top of that manor piece and a tower on the top of the manor piece. You could also place the windows and the doorjambs where you liked.
The common oblivion houses don't have this ability.
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Post by aro101 »

Blackbird -> I'm working on the MC interiors. The exterior part of each building is one piece, and there is going to be a... respective(sorry, I don't know if it is the right word for it) interior mesh for it. But there will be modular pieces that will give the modder a chance to make them less common(both for interiors and exteriors) and there are many (32 MC) different houses.
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Post by Elfane »

So, what are we going for here. I would say that 1 set for each faction is acceptable. Though I would like us to have slight variations of the sets; different textures, small addons and changes (chimneys, art, possibly a change of windows etc...) Things that would be region specific.

That is what I think. Also what faction is the Goldmoor set going to be for if we go this way?
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Post by Haplo »

Well, Rihad is Forebear. I think Taneth and the other city are both Forebear as well.
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Post by aro101 »

Nah, sorry I was wrong about the interiors. That was the initial El Scumbagos plan (i was kinda confused because on the concept it is written so and I took only these concepts and studied them on my latest travel, and in the topic Scummy changed his mind, but I completely forgot what Scummy wrote... ;)) Actually the modder will have a lot to choose from. I just modell out the pieces(cellings, floors, columns, stairsets, windows, etc) and the modder will put all of them together just like he wishes to do. Every house can be completely different, even if the exterior's the same. IMHO we don't have to worry about the variety... And just like you say Elfane, it's no problem for me to make A different set of walls or columns for the interiors for different cities. But then, what we have in the other hand is the completed set of MC exteriors...
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