The Dragon Break - Help!

[Deeza]

Hi.

I've been trying to get my head around this whole Dragon Break thing. But the more I find out, the more mind-bendingly confusing it gets.

I thought I had it all sussed out: the Dragon Break creates a parallel timeline, and it happens when somebody retcons themselves into the creation myth and adds an extra god.

It happened with the Tribunal, it happened with Tiber Septim and it happened with the King of Worms (I think) - they all became gods and retconned themselves into history. What I really don't understand though is, if they changed history, how other people still remember what happened before? Are the time changes local or global?

And now I hear that there's a theory that even the Eight Divines as they're known today were contaminated by the Marukhati Selective trying to become gods and retcon the creation myth? So who created the world before that?

Does this mean that the versions of Akatosh et al. worshipped all over the rest of Nirn are actually the Marukhati, or did this retconning only affect Cyrodiil? Are the other versions of the gods similarly altered by each civilisation?

Is there a single god in Tamriel's pantheon who didn't start out as a man retconning themselves into history?

Or are all the gods just schizophrenics who are the products of with every successive civilisation that messes around with the time/space continuum?

Please forgive me if I'm spouting rubbish. I'm new to all this and I still don't know enough to tell good lore from bad.

[Lady Nerevar]

probably the best place to ask this would have been at the official forums, you'd get a faster (and perhaps clearer) answer there.

anyhow, ill try to clarify to the best of my abilities.

its not so much a parallel timeline as it is an alternate one, or rather many alternate ones. it doesn't have to deal specifically with 'retconing the creation myth and adding an extra god' though gods are typically involved. think of the Almsivi for example, they never altered the creation stories but merely gained godly powers. similarly, the Miracle of Peace in the Illiac bay did not alter the creation mythos but simply resolved the multiple outcomes of the Numidium (mainly by destroying it).

people remembering is what makes Dragonbreaks special. people dont have to realize they happened (except with things like time lapses), they affect the past as well. the tribunal were always gods due to the Dragonbreak, even though they had been mortal in a past life so to speak.

Is there a single god in Tamriel's pantheon who didn't start out as a man retconning themselves into history?

plenty. not all gods are et'ada, many cultural gods have nothing to do with them.

the Selectives thing is tricky, i dont understand it very well (if at all) and quite frankly dont subscribe to it. Ill leave sload to explain it fully. here is HIS version of the theory (which doesnt quite match up with some other the others, but its still fun) sumed up from IRC:

Code: Select all

<Sload> so the history of Nirn began in 1E 1200
<Sload> hmm prolly a little before that
<Sload> what do you think proweler
<Sload> when do you think the selectives developed their doctrine
<Sload> lets just say that during the latter parts of the 12th century 1E, the Marukhati Selectives arose
<Sload> this part is completely made up - They had visions of Marukh before them, who taught them a great deal of CHIM shit
<Sload> blah blah blah, the Tower, I ARE ALL WE, whatever
<Sload> I don't actually understand that I just pretend to
[...]
<Proweler> mmh, seems more like a zeitgeist sort of development, starts with somebody putting two religions together and then on and on 
<Sload> so in 1E 1200 the Dawn began
<Sload> it lasted 126 years
<Sload> split 8 ways
<Proweler> nice
<Sload> The 8 Selectives did their dance moves
<Sload> descending like stars from the sky
<Sload> creating the Mundus
<Sload> as taught to them by the divine architect, Marukh
<Sload> They created the Wandering Ehlnofex
<Proweler> So in a sense Marukh = magnus?
<Sload> and gave birth to the Aldmer
<Sload> no Marukh = Lorkhan
<Sload> Magnus is the 9th selective
<Sload> wait
<Proweler> Thought Maggy was the architect, but continue
<Sload> hmm
<Sload> Magnus was the architect?
<Lady_N> so, wait. werent the selectives alredy on nirn? 
<Sload> What did Lorhkan do then?
<Lady_N> he sugested the idea afair
<Sload> Magnus was prolly the guy
<Sload> who saw Marukh
<Sload> yeah thats how the story goes
<Sload> Magnus saw visions of Marukh
<Proweler> It's Sload revisionism Lady N, tries to put more history into the Dragon Broke.
<Sload> who had seen visions of Alessia, look at that, we've got some Sophia/Ialdaboath shit going on
<Sload> anyways
<Sload> So Magnus didn't finish his dance and became the Sun
<Sload> but his stupid followers
<Sload> created the world
<Sload> their spaceship they built landed at the Adamantine
<Sload> their kids landed on Cyra
<Sload> they created all the other races
<Sload> by the end of the Dawn their descendents had forgotten everything but their ancestors
<Sload> and the secret reality is that the Dawn and the Dragon Break are the same time period
<Sload> ahh no Magnus cant be the architect
<Sload> how does the story go?
[...]
<Proweler> Okay, I gotta hand it to you, you manage to give history a droste effect
<Sload> they kill lorkhan
<Sload> so you were right
<Sload> magnus is marukh
<Sload> they kill their leader who saw marukh
<Sload> which is good cause magnus and marukh both start with m
<Proweler> meh, that's too much like numerology, no real meaning
<Proweler> it'd atleast need to have some ethmlogthingical similairty
<Proweler> something like margukhs and marukh
<Sload> well what about lorkhan and shezzar
<Sload> how related are those names?
<Sload> its just a happy coincidence, all of these people have 12 names
<Proweler> shor and shezarr do and the Nords had a much greater influence on shezarrs creation then the Altmer
<Proweler> anyway it's entertaining, though I'm not surehow many other people
<Proweler> would realize
<Sload> i like it better
<Sload> it fits better
<Sload> what kind of reasoning is that
<Sload> splitting akatosh and auriel
<Sload> its really not a good explanation
<Sload> interesting that the warp of the west
<Sload> which was based around the numidium
<Sload> which is definitely more related to the space god than the time god
<Sload> took place in 8 places
<Proweler> yea, I agree, spliting auriel and akatosh is stupid and probebly not what they're doing
<Sload> while the middle dawn, generally associated with the time god
<Sload> took place in 8 times
<Proweler> though I reckon that with all the manteling associated with dragon brokes, they made themselves gods.
<Sload> of course they did
<Sload> thats what i just said
<Proweler> yea, but they didn't replace the Aedra
<Sload> no
<Sload> they were the aedra
<Sload> there's no concept of "before them"
<Proweler> I'm just mentioning the differences between one theory and another.
<Sload> like its not like before them there were no aedra or different aedra
<Haplo> there was no before them?
<Sload> because even in the world they were born into, they were the gods
<Sload> they just didnt know it yet
<Proweler> what happened to the old world?
<Sload> there wasnt one
<Sload> its not like they created an alternate history
<Sload> the aedra always are and always were the marukhati
<Proweler> well there was a time when they weren't
<Sload> nope
<Proweler> then how come we know about it?
<Sload> know about what?
<Proweler> the Dragon Broke
<Sload> because that's when the dawn happened
<Sload> no one had the idea to create the world until several thousand years after it was created
<Lady_N> ...
<Lady_N> *i is lost*
<Haplo> lol N
<Lady_N> ok, question. if the selectives alredy existed in a world, but then decided to trasform that world and/or create a new one... would the other people realise what they did? if the course of history and existance is changed via dragonbreak, do people realise that it hasent always been so?
<Sload> nothing changed
<Lady_N> ok
<Haplo> so they just said 'there was a dragon break' and people said 'okay'
<Sload> the selectives attempted to achieve CHIM
<Sload> their attempt was "admittedly the most famous"
<Proweler> wait, I thought we had different idea's :P
<Sload> That it was choreographed by Lorkhan and ultimately failed is well-documented, but whether or not this failure was intentional is still disputed.
<Sload> So the Selectives tried to achieve CHIM
<Sload> their attempt resulted in the creation of the Mudus
<Sload> *Mundus
<Haplo> what happens when you try to achieve CHIM? A lot of crazy shit?
<Haplo> cosmos alteration adn stuff?
<Sload> its basically becoming God Haplo
<Haplo> like the Tribunal, except they cheateD?
<Lady_N> ah, ok, i get it now
<Sload> The Selectives failed at becoming God, all they became was the Aedra
<Proweler> well basically you take a pencil, cross out all the junk you don't like and fill it up with your own writing.
<Haplo> or did they actually acheive it
<Proweler> then you collect your pay check and chug some bourbon down
<Lady_N> only vivic gots teh CHIM, and it wasent cause of the heart
<Lady_N> they became gods, not God
<Sload> To quote Vehk, "At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion. It is a return to the first brush of Anu-Padomay, where stasis and change created possibility. Moreso, it the essence needed to hold that 'dawning' together without disaster. One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear....
<Sload> ...Moreso: he resides within."
<Proweler> In God so to speak
<Proweler> or MK/Ted/ whomever
<Sload> dont do the whole meta-writer-player-bullshit
<Sload> thats so out of character it annoys me
<Sload> its a way to look at it for all of them to understand it better
<Sload> anyways
<Haplo> and the Tower is
<Proweler> it's the beauty of it :)
<Sload> the state of being God, Haplo
<Haplo> okay
<Lady_N> i think yall are confusing haplo
<Haplo> I'm caught up
<Lady_N> nah, you aint :PO
<Haplo> well I don't even look at lore really ever
<Haplo> and yeah I am X-/
<Sload> the other et'Ada are presumably the other people living during the Dawn
<Lady_N> no, haplo, you aint :P 
<Sload> Mehrunes Dagon was just a drunk from Bravil when Lorkhan started that fateful rave
<Haplo> yes, I is
<Sload> MEN
<Sload> men are the aldmer's Tower
<Sload> the first attempt at recreating what they witnessed in the Dawn
<Sload> was the creation of men
<Sload> slash khajiits slash akaviri race slash yoku
[...]
<Sload> *races
<Sload> slash giants of atmora
<Haplo> yes N
<Haplo> we would call that a splash page
<Haplo> but you guys said no
<Haplo> I still have the sexy one
<Sload> right Proweler ?
[...]
<Proweler> I'm laughing my ass off sload
<Haplo> why is my mind so narrow I only think of Tamriel
[...]
<Sload> why darling
[...]
<Proweler> because it's such and odd view it's funny
[...]
<Sload> it makes perfect sense proweler
[...]
<Proweler> it also makes that one dragon broke special, but the warp of the west is just the same
[...]
<Sload> well duh
<Sload> the warp of the west wasnt an attempt at achieving CHIM
<Sload> it was just people who dont know what theyre doing fucking with another failed attempt
<Proweler> no, but it's effects not so different from the dragon broke
<Sload> an attempt, I should mention, that would have succeeded if not for the Tribunal
<Sload> because they erased Yagrum Bagarn's memory and put him Divayth Fyr's basement
<Sload> i once thought that was actually an intended secret
<Sload> but i think it wouldve come out by now if they meant it
<Sload> it fits the facts better than lore though
<Proweler> I dunno about that
<Proweler> it's a rather omnimous line though
<Proweler> anyway, I've gotta go
<Proweler> owh, and why I come here? Because by tradition we don't talk about lore in #til :P
* Proweler is now known as ProwAway
<Sload> the real question is
<Sload> what song were they dancing to
<Lady_N> Princes of the Universe by Queen
<Sload> my money's on Snow ((Hey Oh))
<Lady_N> that could work too
[...]
<Sload> it doesnt even make sense
<Aro> welcome back
[...]
<Sload> no what i said
<theviking> sorry i joined after that
<Sload> that the Dawn was created while they were dancing to Snow ((Hey Oh))
[...]
<Sload> some of the stuff from snow is though
<Sload> Step from the road to the sea to the sky
<Sload> the sea and the sky some intense symbolism in creation myths
<Sload> When to descend to a man for a friend
[...]
<Sload> the cover of another perfect wonder
<Sload> god
<Sload> this all makes so much sense
<Sload> I want to present it somehow

[Deeza]

So... what Sload's trying to say is that Nirn created itself?

It's a paradox without any end or beginning?

And it's only existed for a couple of thousand years from an objective viewpoint?

Except of course there's no objective viewpoint from within it, so it's always been that way?

Except that people remember when it wasn't like that?

>>>>>HEAD EXPLODES<<<<<<<<

I think I was happier not knowing all that (:

[Lady Nerevar]

well, you could look at it that way, but i dont think thats what Sload is saying. Nirn was created by peoples certainly, and they gained godly status by doing so.

[Deeza]

Nirn was created by peoples certainly, and they gained godly status by doing so.

So they tried to recreate the beginning of the world in order to become gods, but all they actually did was go back in time to create the world that they already lived in?

Classic "open a box with the screwdriver inside it" paradox. Like if the Terminator hadn't tried to kill their nemesis when he was a baby then he'd never have been born.

Then what does that make the Hist?

[Sload]

Its difficult because you're trying to comprehend what Vivec calls three-dimensional thought. In his poorly recorded comments at Hogithum, he gives a particularly revealing monologue...

• But when Vehk the mortal reached into the Heart, he ceased to be anything except for what he wished to be. The axis erupted. There was an exact cracking, an instant of pure Aurbis, his hands burnt black by that ever-nil of static change, and Vivec the god who had never been had always been. A whole universe swelled up to legitimize his throne... as the old universe, where Vehk the mortal still lapped up Godsblood, warped itself to accept its new equivalent. And like all things magical it simply could not happen, could not Be. Red Mountain was the intersection of the Is-Is Not as it was of old, its center point, and it did not hold. And so the Dragon, having broken, saw fit to heal, turning into the world you know. Except now Vivec the God was alive before his own birth, which had, in fact, really happened in the death of the last universe. Hard to grasp in three-dimensional thought? Why, of course it is.

He goes on to talk about killing Nerevar, but that isn't relevant.

A "dragon break" is just any time the world breaks down. When the mask falls and it is revealed for its chaotic schizophrenic self, things get crazy. These dragon breaks were not all the same, the Warp and the West and the most famous 1008 year Dragon Break were different from the others.

Two of the more famous examples of the similar ones are the breaks that occurred at Red Mountain and Rimmen; both occured for the same reason: someone, first ALMSIVI and then TALOS, transcended aurbis, what the [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml]Loveletter,[/url] calls "reaching the final subgradient of all AE." They became gods, but far more powerful gods than any gods their peers had worshiped: as Vivec said in his [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml]Teachings, [/url] Lorkhan was attempting to achieve exactly what Septim and Vivec achieved. They escaped reality and were no longer bound by it's laws, ergo, they could do anything.

The one thing they cannot do is alter the past. Talos can remove the jungles from Cyrodiil, but he can't remove them from Cyrodiil's memory. The immutability of previous events is shown in the Elder Scrolls: though they are murky and shifting when tuned to the future, when tuned to the past they are solid and clear. However, though they cannot change history, they can create it. To reconcile their invented histories with the original history, time breaks at the moment these histories converge: this is the dragon break in question. So both stories, Vivec's and the Dissidents', are true. Tiber Septim was from both Atmora and Anticlere. That may not make sense, but you're only thinking in one dimension.

The Warp of the West was simply the reconciliation of eight different events that occurred. Why did eight contradictory events occur? Mostly because Morrowind says they did and that's cool. If you want a more in-character, answer, MK notes that "the Surrender of Alinor happened in one hour, but Numidium's siege lasted from the Mythic Era until long into the Fifth." In other words, the Numidium by nature does not follow the rules of reality. Therefore, as soon as it was activated, it split reality in eight ways and let each of the eight events occur. Time then reconciled these events into a single timeline, forming a dragon break with what amounts to a "compromise" reality; everyone got some of what they wanted, but no one got all of it (except perhaps the Underking).

The lengthiest Dragon Break, which is the namesake of all the others, is the least understood. It is explained in Where were you? that they were trying to split Auriel and Lorkhan out of Akatosh and Shezzar. This is bullshit obviously, because it's so completely uncool. So what did they do?

The immediate guess would be that they did what everyone else did: they became "gods." This however is obviously not true: the dragon breaks in those instances lasted a single moment, and when they were done the people who instigated them remained as divine beings; in this case, the dragon break lasted 1008 years and the Marukhati were gone at the end of them.

My attempt at an explanation (actually, it is really [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/nazzarticle4.shtml]Nazz's[/url], and he actually gives evidence for it) is that they became the Aedra. Simply put, the idea to create Nirn was not thought up until about 6000 years into its history. The Selectives did not change history, they can't, they simply created it. And they did not create an alternate history, they created the original history. Does this make sense?

If it doesn't, you're just not thinking in three dimensions.

[Hemitheon]

That is some mind-altering shit, Sload! Kinda like when I first starting delving into the Qabbalah.

[Sload]

Albides wants me to point out that the Numidium is not "free" to break the laws of reality; rather as a god, it breaks these laws as part of its nature. Unlike other gods, it was created by the imperfect Dwemer, rather than the perfect higher order from which all spirits flow, and therefore in its imperfection is incapable of "stepping lightly on the eggshells," as it were. So it breaks the laws as an unfortunate side-effect of its nature, not as part of its intended function.

[Deeza]

So it breaks the laws as an unfortunate side-effect of its nature, not as part of its intended function.

I think I'm starting to see what you mean.

So... the Vivec who may (or may not) have killed Nerevar historically was not the same Vivec you meet in Morrowind. That Vivec is the culmination of the new mythic back-story he wrote for himself. None of which changes the fact that people still remember what happened to the "historical" Vivec, including Vivec himself.

Quote:
It is explained in Where were you? that they were trying to split Auriel and Lorkhan out of Akatosh and Shezzar. This is bullshit obviously, because it's so completely uncool.
But it would make it nicely ironic if by trying to "purify" the Elven Pantheon they ended up becoming it.

Which leaves me with this question (at the risk of going slightly off-topic):

If you can't change memory, how did Aum make everyone forget about the Pankratosword? By making a reality in which it never existed (but which couldn't change the fact that Yokuda was destroyed)?

Or is this a different phenomenon altogether?

[Sload]

So... the Vivec who may (or may not) have killed Nerevar historically was not the same Vivec you meet in Morrowind. That Vivec is the culmination of the new mythic back-story he wrote for himself. None of which changes the fact that people still remember what happened to the "historical" Vivec, including Vivec himself.

No.

First of all, Vivec killed Nerevar. There is no question about that. Second of all, they are indeed the exact same person.

Think of the two histories, the original and the invented, as two separate tributaries for the same river. They converge into a new stream, and the flotilla of both of them is combined. There is, at the moment, one Vivec, and he both killed Nerevar and did not kill him. Both histories are true, despite their conflict. The point where the rivers come together, when Vivec "reaches into the Heart," is a Dragon Break.

If you can't change memory, how did Aum make everyone forget about the Pankratosword? By making a reality in which it never existed (but which couldn't change the fact that Yokuda was destroyed)?

Or is this a different phenomenon altogether?

First of all, "memory" was largely poetic language, in order to not say "history" and "the past" too many times in the same paragraph. Second of all, no, its a completely different phenomenon.

However the point about the past still stands. People can remember that Pankratosword was used, and even some of them remembered that they used to know how to use it, but after he spoke those words, people could not use the pankratosword. They no longer knew how. It was an ability they lost, but they did not lose the memory of its having happened.

But no, that has nothing to do with a dragon break.

[Deeza]

I thought not. But I just wanted to clarify.

So how many documented Dragon Breaks are there in total then?

I make it four, the two Numidium-related ones, plus the Big One and the Tribunal. Have I missed any? Does the disappearance of the Dwarves count?

I assume it doesn't, because Numidium got left behind along with quite a few of their ghosts, and there's no artificially added history concerning them that I can see.

[Sload]

Any others have gone unnoticed. Comparing what Vivec and Talos did to what the Marukhati Selectives did is ridiculous, though. Those are not Dragon Breaks on nearly the same scale as what you call "the Long One," or with as noticable effects as the Warp of the West.

I am not entirely familiar with the history behind certain other figures, such as Reman Cyrodiil or Pelinal, who very easily could have had a "dragon break." Again, they wouldn't have had nearly the same impact as the Marukhati one or the Warp of the West.

[Hrafnkel]

At the risk of coming out of nowhere (I can't remember if I've even posted on these forums, though I've had an account forever!), I'd wonder if there was a Dragon Break of sorts with the Tsaesci ate it to become it. Presuming Adventurous Putty's idea on them is correct, and they mythically unmade the Men of Akavir, yet there's still memories of said Men even though the Tsaesci are now immortal... Or am I just totally off, here?

Sorry if that's off-topic, somewhat, just figured it might be another possible Dragon Break to add to the list.

[Jule]

Well, I can't see how this could be connected to the whole dragon break story. Does it take a dragon break to eradicate a race? I guess it doesn't.

[Nazz]

probably the best place to ask this would have been at the official forums, you'd get a faster (and perhaps clearer) answer there.

Or at least the Imperial Library forums, we never talk about anything lore related that's cool there...

This is crazy, and good, maybe even crazy good. Kind makes things even more inline with [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/dfbooks/b055_lightdark.shtml]The Light and the Dark[/url]

[Lady Nerevar]

well, most people have accounts on the BSF, but not everyone has accounts on TIL. most people on TIL are also on BSF. so BSF seemed the more convenient suggestion.

hi Nazz!

[Sload]

At the risk of coming out of nowhere (I can't remember if I've even posted on these forums, though I've had an account forever!), I'd wonder if there was a Dragon Break of sorts with the Tsaesci ate it to become it. Presuming Adventurous Putty's idea on them is correct, and they mythically unmade the Men of Akavir, yet there's still memories of said Men even though the Tsaesci are now immortal... Or am I just totally off, here?

Sorry if that's off-topic, somewhat, just figured it might be another possible Dragon Break to add to the list.

First of all, "And we ate it to become it" is the subtitle of the Tsaesci Creation Myth, and therefore is just a reflection on their interpretation of the Dawn.

On the other hand, Putty's idea of their behavior - an idea I definitely like - is indeed intriguing. I don't see how it's similar to these events, though. They don't invent an alternative history and they don't bend time; all they do is make something happen. This implies a higher state of being, but not necessarily a full apotheosis like Vehk achieved.

No, I don't think there's a Dragon Break involved. They're just more transcendent than you are.

------

Nazz is back!

Mosdef prefer the Storyboard over TESF. 1. I can post there. 2. It's a better forum that deserves more attention. 3. The ratio of people who are right to morons of one stripe or another is much better.

Never direct people to TESF. Tell them to get an account at TIL.

------

There is a worthy footnote on Deeza's question if Vivec is not the same Vivec as before he ascended: he certainly doesn't consider them the same person. But then again, he's trying to argue that he's not guilty, isn't he?

I think its pretty disingenuous of him to say that he isn't the same person he was before he became a god. Both histories contributed to his existence, after all. Rather, it's his way of dealing with the guilt of killing his lover and leader and dearest friend.

I've said before that Morrowind is the final act of a 4000 year tragedy, whose heroes are the Tribunes. Their failings are all the result of their inability, even as gods, to handle what they did at Red Mountain. Nerevar was their beloved leader, and they killed him for power. Morrowind and Tribunal are a shot at how they handled their sin.

Vivec became dualistic and absolves himself of blame by pointing the figure at a "different Vivec," something that has been discussed at length several hundred times.

Sotha Sil isolated himself from others and spent his time trying to become absolutely perfect - a perfect being cannot sin after all - when he realized that he could not escape his past, he became nihilistic and allowed himself to be killed.

Almalexia faired worst of all. She needed the constant adoration of her people to justify her action - she killed Nerevar for their benefit. Ultimately she could not escape the guilt and was driven mad by it.

I think it's a very powerful statement that even though they are all-powerful gods, they still can't handle their crime. It's moving, really, and I have nothing but pity for them.

[Deeza]

Well, that adds a whole new level of depth to the plot. I'd heard things along those lines before in various places, but never saw it put so neatly.

A related question which I suppose belongs here:

When the Altmer switched from worshipping their ancestors (divine and otherwise) to worshipping the ancestors of their kings, and Auriel, Trinimac et cetera became recognised as gods, were new gods actually created?

I saw it as being more of an Ancient-Egyptian style religion with the Kings being regarded as living gods then worshipped after their deaths (Auriel being the "living" incarnation of Akatosh personified as the Altmer King, for example) but I could be wrong. What are your thoughts?

[Sload]

This question confuses me.

First, I know of no such shift from worshiping their ancestors to worshiping only the ancestors of their kings. To my Altmer, at least, all ancestors are a link to the divinity that they have slowly lost.

Further, Auriel is Akatosh. They're the same god by different names, one is not an incarnation of the other. Trinimac is contemporary to Auriel, considered his champion, and probably the first Aldmer leader, and therefore could be considered (and probably actually is) the father of all Altmer.

The Altmer don't see their kings as living gods, they see themselves as living gods. They are very similar to the Dwemer in this way, but they are coming at the situation from a very different cultural perspective. The Dwemer realized that Lorkhan was trying to achieve something greater than godhood, and imitated his actions. The Altmer, however, are stuck in a stupid simplistic belief that Lorkhan was an evil trickster and that he stole divinity from them.

[Deeza]

This question confuses me.

Probably because I was confused about this myself. Thanks for replying.

I assume that when the PGE3 talks about the shift in Altmer religion it's talking from the perspective of an ignorant Imperial who's trying to rationalise it all into the Alessian pantheon.

But I wonder where this leaves Veloth? I've read that he was big on the Psijic Endeavour, so was his Exodus another attempt to imitate what Lorkhan tried (except that the Velothi tried to use mysticism to achieve this instead of giant robots)? I also wonder if perhaps he led his followers to Morrowind partially because he suspected that the Heart of Lorkhan was located there, which might have assisted his followers in achieving Chim (though I assume he never achieved it himself during his lifetime)?

[Sload]

Yes except the part about the Heart.

[url=http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml]Read this.[/url]