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Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



This and this is what Necrom looks like.

The question is: how do you build a city out of that - within the limitations of the CS?

C'mon everyone lets think on't. How do you do it?

Or take the Ordinators in Mourning - ordinators whose masks are crying. We need more ideas like that.

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Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:12 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

Since Necrom has more time, why not Lute's banner ideas.

I always imagined the body of St. Veloth within the Temple but his body has not been ravaged by time. He is pristine and beautiful but dead.

Bonewalkers could be used throughout the Temple District as guardians.

Necrom could have a collection of St. relics kept within the Temple District. The original saint designs do show alot of stuff which could be made into relics.
Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:41 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bloodthirsty Crustacean
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2007

Location: Elsewhere

Hemitheon wrote:
Bonewalkers could be used throughout the Temple District as guardians.

That'd only come across properly coolly if we made a new 'uber-sanctified' bonewalker model, something that looks more like Mr.N in Sload's first link, rather than the standard 'zombie wannabe'.

Bonelords look proper, though. A few of them could be hanging around.


And in terms of getting that 'look', tons of banners and crap hanging from ropes with all that kinda Temple-style art, as in Vivec, would certainly help.

(We could even use some Saint statues Razz)

Meh, these ideas probably aren't the droids we're looking for. Sorry.

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Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:31 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Tyrion
Reviewer
31 May 2006

Location: currently hiding in Pentos (aka Philadelphia)

I had an idea.

Unless was already brought up before: saint statues are good, I think we need several focal points for offerings to be left at. I'm not talking about a few flowers thrown around a statue though I'm talking about walls crammed full of prayer cards a la The Wailing Wall in Jerusalem.

I'm also hesitant about placing any undead within the city. At least the kind of bonewalkers/bonelords mentioned. If anything, design a suit of armor or use the Necrom Ordinator set (we have one right?) and have suits of armor being animated by the spirits of fallen Temple warriors. Place them near the Temple, they'll stand there, stock still, for as long as they're bound to the mortal world blah blah blah. A little more threatening than a living Ordinator I would think.

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Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:42 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Lady Nerevar
Developer Emeritus
08 Jun 2004

Location: New Orleans, LA

when i read bonewalker i saw a bonewalker decked out in gilded ceremonial armor. banners would be a great way to add detail, making them using lute's drawings would be pretty easy.

maybe script a procession of priests and ritual undead from the bridge to the temple when the player first enters, that would be a good way to set up the atmosphere (i think lute had an idea like this).

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Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:15 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

3 crazy ideas:

a Vault of Ancestors within the Temple, basically a giant room which holds countless ancestral spirits.

a beam of light radiating from Necrom Temple's central spire. But it's not light it's the essence of ghostfence.

ancestral spirits flying all over the place.
Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:44 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Tyrion
Reviewer
31 May 2006

Location: currently hiding in Pentos (aka Philadelphia)

Hemitheon wrote:

ancestral spirits flying all over the place.


Having all the ghosts visible takes away some of the mysteriousness of the city. The dead shouldn't be so readily visible and readily accessible, hence all the flair involved with honoring/contacting them.

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"Imagination and memory are but one thing which for diverse considerations have diverse names."

"How dare you question the colonnade!" - one of the Glorious Leaders

"Nemon + IKEA = creationism" - some guy

"The layout is awesome, the scale is awesome, the whole city is just awesome!" - Tyrion on Blacklight, circa 2007
Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:27 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

When I think of bonewalkers and bonelords I think of this:



Instead, I think using Necrom Ordinators is enough. After all, it's an honor only granted to a few hundred or less, right? Wouldn't they be pissed if they had to give half their job to some measly bonewalkers(which are always easy kills for me at level 5)? Vivec had the Ordinators, Almalexia has Her Hands, the King has his guards, Sotha had his fabricants, Necrom can have its Mourners. If we need to the whole mannequin-on-guard idea is a lot more appealing and sanctifying than a lich or a chunk of flesh.

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Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:58 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

Being a bonewalker is a sacred privilege for ancestors. Nerevar was turned into a bonewalker. I doubt the Ordinators would feel any resentment towards Dunmer ancestors in the form of bonewalkers.
Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:18 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Lud
Developer Emeritus
27 Aug 2004

Location: Ireland

Regular "parades of the dead", where ceremonial bonewalkers/lords (with special bindings, etc) or the Necrom Ordinators are paraded around the city. During these, all the townspeople stop moving and bells ring.

Bonelords with special robes would fill such a role quite well with a mere retexture.

Seasonal changes of the banners to fit a particular festival in one part of the year. One month could be extra-holy, with new banners being enabled all over the city. The whole city would be draped in a particular bright colour. (These could just be recolours of the other Necrom banners) This would be the "month of mourning", when all the residents of the city mourn the dead and pilgrims flock to the city. All the shops would close for this month (Service refusal), but the innkeepers would allow pilgrims to stay for free. During this month, the "Peace of the Ancestors" is in place. This means that all residents are expected to uphold the highest of standards and must not quarrel with their neighbours; quarrels and debts must wait until after the month ends. This means that anybody who breaks the law in Necrom during this time is punished most severely. (Fines go up and the threshold for execution goes down)

I really like the idea of a wailing wall type thing. Smile
Perhaps it could be filled with offerings for the continued functioning of the ghostfence?

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Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:21 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

The Temple of Almalexia has a unique sound marker why couldn't Necrom have one. How bout the sound of chanting or low humming.
Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:23 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
presh
Developer
26 Oct 2004



Is the making of bonewalkers current temple doctrine? I understood that all ancestors were to be subsumed into the Ghostfence, no exceptions. Or have I misunderstood?

I like the idea of some kind of scripted ceremony, where the spirits of recently deceased are sent into the Ghostfence. Though the form that this would take I don't really know.

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Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:58 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

A large point of my post was that they look bad. If we're going to have sacred ancestors roaming around or standing guard we need to make them look a bit more flattering.
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Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:34 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

What if we took the bonelord and retextured its robes to match the Necrom robe?
Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:36 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

As long as it doesn't look like an emaciated skeletor
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Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:38 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sevec
Member
31 Jul 2008

Location: Colorado

Here are some random ideas:

Perhaps there would be a huge graveyard there.
Would it be possible to make the skies darker there, or have some sort of fog?
Many of the citizens could wear black clothing, and women could have veils.
There could be simple statues on flat rooftops honoring the recently decesed.
Perhaps huge tombs or monuments, in memory of the greatest dead, ie Nerevar, other misc. saints and heros like veloth.
An ancient tomb where dishonorable are burried, such as false incarnates and other enemies to the Tribunal Temple.
A few sanctified necromancers, temple priests who summon the dead for special temple approved practices or ceremonies.
An executioner stand,for many criminals, often temple enemies, and will soon be buried in the "Ancient tomb" described above.
In the actual temple building, there could be a few bonewalkers wandering in a holy cave below.

These are just possible ideas, some may be useful, others may not.
Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:41 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

I don't think heretics would be buried within the walls of Necrom.
The Temple does not perform Necromancy but I think we get the gist.
An executioner would totally be out of place here.


One thing I forgot to add, remember in Tribunal that the guards would say "Mournhold, City of Light, City of Magic"? What if the guards of Necrom had a saying?
Post Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:47 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

"Necrom, City of Dead, City of Holy"
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Post Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:14 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sevec
Member
31 Jul 2008

Location: Colorado

I guess you could also add Necrom Ordinator insults, such as "Don't try anything, or you may be celebrated in the next festival of the dead."
Post Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:45 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Tyrion
Reviewer
31 May 2006

Location: currently hiding in Pentos (aka Philadelphia)

Necrom, City of Sighs, City of Tears.

or maybe

Necrom, City of Bones, City of Spirits

how about

Necrom, City of Reverence, City of Memory

maybe even

Necrom, Hallowed and Immaculate

break out the thesaurus...

to add:

Retextured bonelords are not gonna cut the mustard imo. We need something really serious, really powerful. When you see these things you want to think "Whoa... I'm not touching that thing for a while" not "Hey look a purple bonelord! *stab stab stab*" Besides, they were originally intended to guard tombs. You never really see them out in the daylight unless they're summoned. I say keep them down there. If we need something else above ground than the ordinators then we need to think of something showstopping. I mentioned the idea of spirit-animated armor because ordinator armor is beautiful in its design. An immaculate suit of high-level armor is a little nicer than a skeleton with a new robe. Having any corporeal undead above ground just seems to take away from the experience. Again, the dead shouldn't be, in my mind, so out in the open, it takes away from the mystery that is part of the allure of Necrom. Same goes for the festivals. I love the color scheme idea for festivals, but leave them to the living (at least above ground). My thought was, coming from an Italian family and all, to take a specific icon (image of a saint) and display it at certain points throughout the city for different festival times. When the festival is over, a new saint's image goes up. A parade would be difficult to script, and would only really feel right with speech, something that is more suited to TES IV really.

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"How dare you question the colonnade!" - one of the Glorious Leaders

"Nemon + IKEA = creationism" - some guy

"The layout is awesome, the scale is awesome, the whole city is just awesome!" - Tyrion on Blacklight, circa 2007
Post Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:49 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



Hmm. I don't feel like we have the right outlook. We're thinking of things that are holy, but often they wouldn't really bring anything to the atmosphere.

In order from Hemitheon's first post down:

-Banners are cool. They aren't nearly enough on their own but they do add something.

-Veloth should definitely show up in some way.

-I don't like the bonewalker idea. It's been discussed up and down in this thread, but I basically agree with Haplo. They're ugly and the Ordinators in Mourning are enough.

-Relics are nice and holy, but expected. There should be some, but they don't do much for the mood.

-Tyrion's post: Yes.

hemitheon's next post:

-Not if they just float there like that.

-Above the temple? No. Within the temple? Yes. With those ancestors spinning around it? Yes. Is it possible? Probably not.

-Again, ancestor ghosts don't really move like that.

-Scripted events, especially parades: Not really enough to set up an atmosphere, nor do I think they would work very well.

-Seasonal banners: While nice, this certainly wouldn't effect the atmosphere in any meaningful way. Either way there'd be banners with a fancy design.

-Sound markers: Yes.

-Sevec: Gloom is not what we aim for.

-I like Necrom, Hallowed and [Something] but "Immaculate" is kinda weak. I don't like "City of" because that's just so much like Mournhold's. Nor will this really enhance the atmosphere that much anyway.

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Post Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:05 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

I figured the saying could be more along the lines of "To gaze upon the majesty of Necrom is to look upon the splendor of ALMSIVI."

EDIT: As for Veloth, I just remembered an idea I had. There is a unique item in the misc junk. I think it's called the Pilgrim's Stone or something like that. What if it was Veloth's heart encased in crystal? It could be a tool used by the Temple priests in their rituals.
Post Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:40 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gez
Developer Emeritus
22 Jul 2005



"Necrom, City of <blah>, City of <bleh>": categorical no. The point of a unique phrase for guards to say is that it's unique. If you want it to be city of stuff, city of thing, just use the Mournhold one. Sinister Grin

"Necrom, thrice-blessed by the Ancestors!"
"All die, but Necrom is eternal!"

I don't know, something that isn't a calque of Mournhold.
Post Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:00 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bloodthirsty Crustacean
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2007

Location: Elsewhere

Whatever it might be, it'd sound crap if it wasn't Jeff Baker speaking it.
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a man melts the sand so he
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Post Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:04 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Tyrion
Reviewer
31 May 2006

Location: currently hiding in Pentos (aka Philadelphia)

Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:
Whatever it might be, it'd sound crap if it wasn't Jeff Baker speaking it.


trudat

I could try shoving a bottle brush down my throat to get that raspiness.

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"Imagination and memory are but one thing which for diverse considerations have diverse names."

"How dare you question the colonnade!" - one of the Glorious Leaders

"Nemon + IKEA = creationism" - some guy

"The layout is awesome, the scale is awesome, the whole city is just awesome!" - Tyrion on Blacklight, circa 2007
Post Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:03 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Lady Nerevar
Developer Emeritus
08 Jun 2004

Location: New Orleans, LA

i remember andres has a pretty good raspy dunmer voice. i like hemi's line btw Smile
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Post Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:43 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Lud
Developer Emeritus
27 Aug 2004

Location: Ireland

Necrom to contain an extra guild; professional lamenters. Their job is to attend funerals and cry for the passing of the dead. This is a well-respected craft in the city, with the skills being passed down within families etc. These would be similar to "keeners" and such professional mourners in many societies, but in this case a large part of their purpose is to ensure that the dead play their part in maintaining the ghostfence, they are exhorted to keep the living safe at the funerals.
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Post Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:44 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Faalen
Developer
18 Jun 2008

Location: America's Dairyland

How will Necrom be affected when the player completes the Morrowind MQ and the Ghostfence is no longer needed? There would need to be at least superficial changes in dialogue to reflect the fact that ancestors can return to their old function of protecting their families instead of surrounding Red Mountain.
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Post Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:09 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Peterboy
Developer
28 Aug 2006

Location: Hungary

This is not so easy to do, but maybe windbells and censers all around? Alas it needs new meshes probably
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Post Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:39 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

we cuold retexture the OM censer.
Post Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:15 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Tyrion
Reviewer
31 May 2006

Location: currently hiding in Pentos (aka Philadelphia)

In the Roman Catholic church they used to build whole churches and pay the priests to pray for the soul of the deceased king or duke or marquess or whatever. Maybe the wealthier individuals can have priests attending them and what not?
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"Imagination and memory are but one thing which for diverse considerations have diverse names."

"How dare you question the colonnade!" - one of the Glorious Leaders

"Nemon + IKEA = creationism" - some guy

"The layout is awesome, the scale is awesome, the whole city is just awesome!" - Tyrion on Blacklight, circa 2007
Post Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:25 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

Hemitheon wrote:
we cuold retexture the OM censer.


You should make a big list of everything you've ever asked for and learn how to model/texture by practicing on those things.

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Post Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:40 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Peterboy
Developer
28 Aug 2006

Location: Hungary

Hemitheon wrote:
we cuold retexture the OM censer.


I don't think, that a simple retexture is enough... the OM censer dosen't go very well with the velothiesque tileset...

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Post Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:07 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

found a better solution:

take TR_ex_cause_s, add furn_coal_hot onto that, then take the OM censer, flip it 180 and lower into the base. The light color values on the censer can be changed to white or orange.



Censer.jpg
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Post Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:48 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Peterboy
Developer
28 Aug 2006

Location: Hungary

I like it... nifskope magic to make it a bit better, plus some dunmeri/tribunal carving and it's perfect:)
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Post Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:30 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Zalzidrax
Developer
03 Dec 2003

Location: Bothell, WA

Well the whole city is a shrine to the ancestors and the dead, and it has been around a long, long time. It needs to awe visitors with respect for their ancestors and the dead. I'm think monuments, maybe tall pillars reaching toward the sky. Houses for the living who have business there crammed in between the tombs and resting places of the dead. I think maybe having a two level effect for many of the streets would be cool, where walkways and new constructions criss-cross overhead of the old alleyways and tombs, to give it a built up feel, and to add an element of twilit darkness which seems fitting for such a city and such a people.

As for technical implementation, a retextured version of the Hlaalu set might work well for this idea, with the addition of new monuments, banners, and pillars to give it a unique feel.
Post Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:42 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

You do know that the city was already made with a new tileset? I think that this thread is more about adding some fancy touches to what was already created.
Post Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:30 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Zalzidrax
Developer
03 Dec 2003

Location: Bothell, WA

I am vaguely aware of the state of Necrom's development, but course those same words could describe the state of Necrom's development before this new round of sprucing it up/rebuilding it. The question was about what Necrom should look like, and how that might be implemented... I was just giving my idea of how I imagine Necrom being. Now of course there is more than architectural ambiance for a city, and Sload may be more interested in that at the moment, though with the limitations of the CS, getting the right feel for the city is largely a function of the architecture.
Post Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:22 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

Ideas for Temple area:

several manors of retired priests
a hostel for visitors who cant afford to stay at the inns
a gorgeous Ordinator building

Remember in Minas Tirith, there was the Rath Dinen? What if a portion of the cemetery was walled off for the tombs of important people like Kings, Saints, and Heroes? In most cases, interiors wouldn't even have to be built here, they could just be activators (like Prince Camaril's tomb along the Green Way in Cyrodiil City). King Llethan could be buried here along with Triffith Sandil, and numerous others.

3 flower gardens with statues of Ayem, Seht, and Vehk. The statues we already have could be retextured Necrom white.
Post Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:25 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
greendogo
TR Tester
29 Mar 2008

Location: Land of Oz

I like the hostel idea, because it would be a good starting place for a quest that is only accessible when the player has no money that starts when the player is asleep, like the Tribunal's dark brotherhood assassins that would wake you up during your sleep.

I think a retextured bonewalker would be so ugly and not befitting Necrom at all. If there had to be something like that, I'd go for something between a flesh atronach and a bonelord, but with a golden mask or something. (Also, keep them in the tombs for the love of Vivec. No one wants to see their Uncle Galos hassling a group of tourists.)

Also, I liked The Wailing Wall idea as well. I think it would be neat to give the player a blessing for their donation and increase the power of the blessing based on the value of the object donated.

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Post Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:46 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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