On Cormaris, why it sucks, and what to do with it.

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On Cormaris, why it sucks, and what to do with it.

Post by Why »

I just mentioned this on IRC, and we had a nice debate about the subject. But since any good debate should really happen on the forums, I'll just recap and continue it here. Let's get this out here - I hate Cormaris in it's current form. This is not about Alex' implementation of the town. I'm not happy with that either, but that's for the exterior department to take care of and Nemon looks like he's itching to revoke the claim at the first opportunity he'll get (yay). This is about the whole idea behind Cormaris, the proud and in-your-face Hlaalu intrusion into weakened Redoran's territory.

I've always been intrigued with the idea behind this. I've tried searching the forums, but I can't really find much. As far as I know, Cormaris is a recently built fortification, it exists to balance out Ald Iuval and Ald Marak(?) at Lake Coronati, to give the impression of a heavily intertwined and contested border between the Redoran and Hlaalu territories and to reinforce the idea that House Redoran is not in good shape at all. As far as I can see, this idea was conceptualized somewhere in 2004 or earlier and hasn't really been properly challenged since. Please allow me to do so now.

I understand the reasons for Cormaris being here, as listed above. The thing is, none of these reasons are true justifications for a small fortress of Hlaalu architecture right in the heart of Redoran territory. Ald Iuval and Ald Marak have nothing to do with Cormaris. Cormaris is nowhere near the Hlaalu/Redoran border. Smacking down a foreign fortress in the heart of Redoran territory is a horrible overkill if it's purpose is to show Redoran's weakness. In fact, Cormaris openly laughs in the face of noble House Redoran. I'm perfectly okay with Redoran being beset from all sides, having trouble, barely holding on to their status as a faction of importance in Morrowind. That's a great idea. But Cormaris is not the right way of portraying this at all.

In discussing things, I've seen people bring up better justifications for Cormaris' existence. Some suggested an idea that I like a bit more - an EEC mining operation that was run by the Hlaalu. This is still not good enough, if you ask me. The EEC are in it for the profit. They're backed by the Empire. They don't need a Hlaalu fortress to hide in. They'd hire local mercinaries, the Redoran even, for protection.

In short, I see no good arguments in favor of Cormaris as a Hlaalu town, I see only downsides. It cheapens the Redoran experience, and is situated in a very illogical place, entirely disconnected from any other Hlaalu holdings. It is an open provocation to the weakened Redoran, yes, but not in a way that would be tolerated unless the Redoran were all dead and buried. The potential storytelling is in no way significant enough to tolerate this aberration and is in no way irreplaceable for the Redoran faction storyline and even less relevant to the Hlaalu storyline which is already loaded with interaction with the other factions through the Ald fortresses, their conflict with Indoril, and the increasing worship of the Imperial Cult among their members.

(I say it is replaceable, rather than irrelevant, to the Redoran. I like the idea of a weakened Redoran having to defend their territory from the Nords and the Hlaalu. But again, this can be conveyed in other, better ways than a Hlaalu fortress a few cells away from Baan Malur.)

So here's a solution. Cormaris becomes an Imperial town, like Caldera, or Raven Rock. Caldera, as you may recall, is an Imperial mining town in Redoran territory in vanilla, but the Governor's Hall is in fact full of Hlaalu NPCs. Similarly the EEC are in a joint venture with a Hlaalu noble (councilor?) who provides cheap mercinaries and guards. The EEC is in it for the money, are backed by the Empire and the Duke, so they can get away with such an intrusion on Redoran territory, even though the Reds don't like it one bit. The Hlaalu are in it because while their monetary gains are not immense, they gain a ton of influence in the region through this forward base.

Storywise, I think this is a way better idea than the original one. There will still be a big Hlaalu influence for the Redoran to worry about, but this time it's not as much of an abomination. Architecture-wise, this is a nice excuse to build a small town using Raven Rock pieces.

And please don't say Cormaris is a good idea because it's an old idea, or because it's a Sload idea (I'm not sure if it is, but I'm sure he has probably agreed with it at one point). While some old ideas are still good today, and Sload is a genius, Cormaris being a recently built Hlaalu fortress, in my opinion, is more like the idea of all Dres councilors being vampires - also an idea that people once thought was good, now one that should be purged or adapted to fit our current ideas and standards.

Thoughts?

edit: I agree with everything Adanorcil wrote below. ;)
Last edited by Why on Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Adanorcil »

I agree, by and large. The idea of Cormaris being a Hlaalu encroachment on Redoran territory is not unlike an American encroachment on Russian territory, only in the middle of Siberia. It totally does not serve the function it was meant to serve, and cannot serve it there.

Since there are not yet a great deal of Imperial settlements in the west of Morrowind (I'm not counting fortresses here since I'm not quite so informed on those), I don't see any harm in Cormaris being Imperial, on the condition that we don't add any more. We strike a nice balance this way.

The idea of it being Imperial -metaphorical- goldmine is a good one. Except for a few strategic cornerstones, Imperial settlements should have an economic basis (cf. Caldera). However, I don't feel it needs to be a mining town. We have quite a few of those already; we can make up something else and better.

Once upon a time, there was an idea flying around (launched by Haplo, I thought) that said Lake Cormaris would be where the dreugh (after being asked by gill-Vivec) taught the Dunmer how to fish. I have always liked this idea, and it adds a lot of atmosphere. I propose we merge the two thought streams, as follows:

Cormaris' exterior must be made a lot more interesting. This much everyone agrees on.* Cormaris has long been a modest fishing town (with aforementioned legendary history), though renowned for its endless supply of nacre, pearls, fresh fish, kelp-balms, dreugh wax, coral beads... i.e. all the riches of the sea and water. The jewelery produced in Cormaris traveled throughout Morrowind and its medicinal exports were said to unrivaled for the treatment of joint-fever and various cinder-rashes.

When the Empire finally annexed Morrowind, they of course wanted to have a hand in Cormaris' rich pickings. Much to the dismay of the locals, the Temple and House Redoran, the EEC systematically increased its presence in Cormaris, bringing a wave of opportunist Hlaalu merchants in their wake. The Hlaalu of course don't actually lay claim to the land, but being sheltered by the Imperial conquerors, they know all too well that economic influence works as well political influence.


*Perhaps there could be a volcanic rift at the very bottom of the deep trench it should come to sit in. This would accommodate the rich water economy.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

Yay! I hate the idea of Cormaris too, but everybody seemed to love it so I thought: why argue for the sake of debate alone? I also thought it would be better as an Imperial settlement, but as the centre of the Imperial administration of the Velothis district. All that would need is a bit of space set aside for a fancy castle type thing like (New) Ebonheart amd Firewatch have.

While addressing Cormaris, I figure I might as well bring up two more things:
- The idea of having House Hlaalu encroaching on Redoran territory is sound. Why not give them a settlement or two on the Inner Sea coast opposite Hla Oad and Gnaar Mok? That way they are trying to take control of the Inner Sea trade, which I think is a more sound proposition.

- Ald Marak and Ald Iuval. These settlements already suck arse so badly that they are going to have to be removed / redone anyway. Twin fortresses on opposite sides of a strategically important lake is a cool idea - but that lake isn't strategic in the least. Luckily there is a such a lake further north - Andaram. Rename "Ald Mar" to "Ald Marak", which can remain Dres. Marak is less build-blocky a name to start with, is a better name overall, and is mentioned in texts as a mighty fortress on the eastern side of an important lake. Build "Ald Iuval" - a new, cool fortress - somewhere on the vacant, uninhabited western side of the lake. That could be manned by the Redorans still, but with what architecture remains up to whatever.

The story remains essentially the same as this fort would still be a vital control point on the Thirr River trade, and serves the Redoran role in Sload's stories which are otherwise sound. However the reverse of Cormaris is corrected - two Redoran settlements smack bang next to Narsis in the heart of Hlaalu territory. The space these settlements occupy could then be replaced with a new Hlaalu town - there's surprisingly few of them in Map 6.
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Post by Haplo »

I always thought it a little odd that the weaker Redoran have two fortified towns in Hlaalu territory while the Hlaalu only inhabit an Imperial town in Redoran territory.

I fully endorse any effort to utilize my idea that Adan brought up, involving the Dreugh and the city Cormar.
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Post by Scamp »

I agree. Let's make this town Imperial, and to be honest... It's not so much of a pity that Alex' Cormaris is getting axed.
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Post by Katze »

With regards to Nomadic1's post, I'm not sure I like the idea of Cormaris having a large imperial military presence. The legion centre of command for Map 5 could be the large imp fort pass near Kogotel (Silgrod Pass?).

Protection for craftsmen and merchants etc in the town would make more sense if it came from local mercenaries, e.g the native Nords and Redoran Dunmer. Only the Hlaalu lord guy helping to orchestrate the operation would be able to afford to ship in his own personal retainers and guards from down south.
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Post by Tyrion »

Agreed. Cormaris in its current form would need to be redone anyway, and there's no un-awkward way to explain why the fuck its in the middle of Redoran territory. I like the idea of an Imperial/Hlaalu operation. Naturally the Hlaalu would want to be in on a foray into Redoran territory, and would definitely enjoy profiting off of Redoran lands, so it makes sense they would be involved. However, having the EEC and Empire make the move to build there removes some of the possibility of out-and-out rejection by Redoran, and allows that more natural back door for Hlaalu, given that they are into sneaking and intrigue more than in-your-face invasion and land grabbing. Plus using the BM colony set or common/nord set there would look better given the regional terrain and flora set. I wouldn't mind maybe a small Imperial fort, or maybe Imperial guards in the settlement (which should still remain small, around 10-15 ints) but any big military presence would probably look too heavy handed.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

i like good ideas.
Adanorcil wrote:Since there are not yet a great deal of Imperial settlements in the west of Morrowind (I'm not counting fortresses here since I'm not quite so informed on those) ...
i think this is probably a conversation worth having at some point before its too late; the fortresses we have seem to be a bit arbitrary, could perhaps do with some oversight?



also Velothis needs a duke so that dude could go here? would be cool to have a more legion-based duke; one of these lads from the best book in morrowind: "In fact, a greater threat to Imperial security lies in the idle legions that the taxpayer spends thousands of drakes to support. The generals of these legions, facing no enemies or opposition within the borders of their provinces, may look with ambition to the West. With their loyal veteran troops and coffers fattened by friendly monopolists, they become unpredictable political factors in the uncertainties surrounding the Imperial succession." it would be cool if he were a redguard. but this last bit has all just been random thoughts of mine so...
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Post by Nemon »

Ok so I'm revoking this claim later today. Are we happy with the general consensus now?

- Imperial architecture + common/nordic stuff
- Subsea industry (lulz)
- Dreugh/Vivec fishing history
- Hlaalu involved
- Stuff
- Rich flora in and around this bay due to volcanic activity at the bottom of the lake (steep crevice?)

Feel free to add
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Post by Katze »

If this place was run by the Dunmer before Septim took over, there should probably be a little bit of Velothi construction, too.

I really like the idea of this being a really rich, vibrant and floral area, something I feel Map 5 is currently lacking in.
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Post by Haplo »

I agree outright with Nemon's post's #s 2 through 6.

Here are my thoughts #1: I agree with Cat that if we are going to use the sub-sea industry thing and EEC presence and whatnot, there should be *some* indications that this place existed for so long before the Empire showed up... namely, there should be some Velothi stuff. Can we mix Velothi with common/Nordic tileset?

Also, BC and Nomadic suggest that this be the location of the Duke for the Velothis district. I disagree for a few reasons:

1. This is a fishing settlement. Its economy is rare and important but it is not huge. It's also a recently new venture by the EEC (NOT the same as the Imperials/Empire).

2. There are better places for a Duke. Like an existing fortress or even Baan Malur. Since the old council moved from Baan Malur to Aldruhn, the Imperials could have moved into the council holdings of the Redoran at Baan Malur and set up their headquarters there. Where are the Imperial fortress/castles in Velothis?

--- ---

With that being said, since the EEC are here and they didn't arrive yesterday (rather, several-to-many years ago from the time the player arrives), a small keep (one imp_keep static and a tower or something) would be highly fitting, for the EEC and their Hlaalu attache.
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Post by Why »

I had a few ideas that I didn't share properly. Sorry about that. Here's what I thought.

Cormar was a small Dunmer fishing village with a history with the Dreugh. After the Armistice the Imperials seized the island and built a small garrison because the location is easily defensible and lies in a strategic location. The Dunmer moved to the big city to live the American dream or whatever is the reason tiny villages disappear, and nothing significant happened for a long time. Then the EEC discovered the bay's resources and partnered up with the Hlaalu to exploit it, building a small settlement next to the fort. Concerning the Duke of Velothis, I think this would be a nice place to have the guy, but I'm okay with him being elsewhere.

I'd rather not mix in Redoran or Velothi architecture with the Imperial (by the way, what happened to the idea of making this in the colony set?) because I'd really like to reinforce the idea that the Imperials here do not care for the traditions of the Dunmer and the history of Cormar.

As it stands ( http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2531/cormar.jpg ) I think the fort is definitely a bit too big and the town too large. Also, the fortifications around the houses need to go since the fort was never intended to guard this town, the town just kinda crept up to the fort.
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Post by Haplo »

Do any of the other 15 or so people with access to this forum want to contribute thoughts?
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Post by Tyrion »

From what I recall wasn't the town around the fort going to be done in the colony set? I also thought we were dropping the Hlaalu out of the whole venture, or was that just architecturally speaking?
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Post by Haplo »

I believe that was just architecturally speaking. As for the colony set, I think someone mentioned something about problems with scripts or something.
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Post by Andres Indoril »

Probably that the colony set has to be turned into static clones of the ones used in Bloodmoon, since nearly all of the colony objects in Bloodmoon were scripted to appear whenever was appropriate in the questline.
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Post by Tyrion »

You know, I'm fine with the regular com/imp set, especially if there will be no snow around the settlement. The colony set really looks better with snow.
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Post by Scamp »

The colony set has got icicles and snow on the roofs. The script thing is absolutely no problem, I already turned the dock mesh into a static in my latest file.
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Post by Haplo »

So it's pretty logical that we can't make this a colony settlement, and no mixing Velothi into the mix. Just Imperial/Nordic stuff. I'd like some feedback on my two points on why there shouldn't be a Duke here.
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Post by Tyrion »

Haplo wrote:So it's pretty logical that we can't make this a colony settlement, and no mixing Velothi into the mix. Just Imperial/Nordic stuff. I'd like some feedback on my two points on why there shouldn't be a Duke here.
If its a fort protecting an isolated mining town, and said town is a mining hole-in-the-wall kind of place, then it doesn't make sense, I agree. I would rather he go into an actual Imperial settlement than Baan Malur though. Imperial forts will need to be constructed in this map, one of them can house the duke. IMO the dukes don't need to be ensconced in something so extravagant. An extra keep piece tucked away in a larger fort should do. We could even name it "____ Castle" rather than the typical "____moth" convention. This being Redoran territory the Imperials aren't going to have as obvious of an impression as they would elsewhere.
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Post by theviking »

The 'tuck the duke of a certain region in a large imperial fort' idea is a bit cliche. Why can't the duke or duchess live in a large Redoran manor in Baan Malur? That's were the power lies in this region. It would be stupid tot build an imperial fort in Baan Malur, but the redoran manor set is very impressive already, fit for a duke or duchess.
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Post by Nanu »

Haplo wrote:So it's pretty logical that we can't make this a colony settlement, and no mixing Velothi into the mix. Just Imperial/Nordic stuff. I'd like some feedback on my two points on why there shouldn't be a Duke here.
Your first point isn't so much something you can get feedback on considering it's just a fact. Taking that fact into consideration, your second point about moving into the old buildings sounds like what would actually happen, especially considering the vast majority of the Imperial's capital was built for them.

Also, calling this a 'hole in the wall' is an understatement. This place makes Gnisis look like Vivec.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

I still quite like the idea of a military Duke, rather than the existing civilians. So putting him out in the backcountry in a Fort, rather than in a palatial city, would actually break with the existing trend for dukes (Helseth; Dren; Firewatch noble gal; hiding Dres guy; Narsis dude). I basically like what i said when i proposed the idea. :P

On point 1, backstory is what you make it. So if you want it to be a fishing village/EEC venture, make it that; if you want it to be a Duke's stronghold, make it that.

On point 2, there are no existing Imperial structures west of Teyn i don't think. So it's somewhere new, or somewhere Dunmer.

soo there aren't any logistical reasons for there not to be a Duke here, it's just a question of where you want the Velothis guy to be. If in an Imperial settlement like i mused, here's an option. If not, then not.
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Post by Haplo »

Judging from the Duke's perspective, I imagine he would want to have ready access to the people he would be dealing with a lot, in a well-fortified place with all the trappings that come with living in a larger settlement. Thus I think the Duke living in Baan Malur makes the most sense; if he were based in Cormar, he'd have to travel down the road in a caravan every time he wanted to get some politicking done.
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Post by Scamp »

theviking wrote:It would be stupid tot build an imperial fort in Baan Malur, but the redoran manor set is very impressive already, fit for a duke or duchess.
Plus, I won't build an imperial fort in Baan Malur ;)
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Again, backstory is what you make it. Logistical concerns don't exist in a world you're creating from scratch.

I think we've got too many city-palace dwelling Dukes, and think a slightly more rugged military guy would be cool (and somewhat fitting for the Redoran/Velothis situation), and a chance to riff off 'Eastern Provinces'. This is not based on any 'logical conclusions', this is just based on what I think is cool. nothing you could say can change what i think is cool. :P

if you just don't agree, that's fine, so don't worry about arguing me down. Just do whatever people think is good.
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Post by Haplo »

Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:Just do whatever people think is good.
I'm just trying to find out what the most people think is good :-P heh
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Post by Tyrion »

I'd rather he go into a fort. However, taking into account the fact that the Redoran Council left Baan Malur I'm sure there's some vacancies available.
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Post by Haplo »

I am now inclined to support a more rugged duke living in Cormar, which will leave the vacant council stuff in Baan Malur... still vacant (for some other cool person or purpose that we have yet to imagine).

To avoid cliche, maybe we could have the Duke *not* stationed/living in the stone structure on the island... maybe just have a large house or inn shell whose interior has been long-term "converted" (in the game world) to the Duke's HQ?
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[06/19/2012 04:15AM] +Cat table stabbing is apparently a really popular sport in morrowind

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Post by Tyrion »

Haplo wrote:I am now inclined to support a more rugged duke living in Cormar, which will leave the vacant council stuff in Baan Malur... still vacant (for some other cool person or purpose that we have yet to imagine).

To avoid cliche, maybe we could have the Duke *not* stationed/living in the stone structure on the island... maybe just have a large house or inn shell whose interior has been long-term "converted" (in the game world) to the Duke's HQ?
A manor is doable in the common set. We've got a bunch in Old Ebonheart.
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Post by Nemon »

Tyrion hath returneth. We need a vote for this claim now that he's wrapping it up. Ex_nord house set for smallish village and imperial stone set for the Duke??
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

I think there ought to be at least some small barracks in the castle set for the guy's troops, the local peacekeeping force. And a fortified island is a bit cool. Maybe not a fully enclosed fort structure, but definitely some walls.

I like Haplo's idea of the Duke's HQ in a largish (not opulent but not 3x2 either) house.

Common Nord is probably best for houses, unless we're going to be using that for actual Nordic settlements too?
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Post by Haplo »

I agree with Nemon's suggestion, and obviously support BC's agreement with me.
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[06/19/2012 04:15AM] +Cat table stabbing is apparently a really popular sport in morrowind

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Post by Tyrion »

I forgot to ask, or maybe I just didn't pick this up from an earlier discussion but if Cormar is going to be a mining settlement then where is the mine located? On the same island?
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Post by Nemon »

You can add a mine to the island, and we can create an underground complex with underwater rivers and lakes connecting to the mainland, but the main trade of Cormaris is fishing and pearls.

The seabed has a lot of volcanic activity, with deep crevices plunging downwards into darkness with the occasional bubble-spweing activator, to create an effect of the volcanic activity right underneath the crust. The seafloor must be rich as nowhere else in this area, with tons of stuff, pearls, flora, barnacles etc. It must also be diverse, forget the boring flat vanilla stuff, use statics and items to create an interesting area to explore for anyone sporting a water breathing potion or good lungs. The BM rock set is awesome, and we have a natural bridge static with that texture to use as well.
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Post by Scamp »

Tyrion, for the volcanic thingies, I was originally planning to do some stuff similar to what I did on my Cyrodiil Seafloor a while back: [url=http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/7086/tyrion.jpg]Clickey[/url]

I was using a combination of Molag Amur rocks (terrain_rock_ma (02,06,10,51,54,56,58,59,67,79, that kind of stuff)) along with Act_Terrain_lava_vent, Act_Terrain_lava_ventlg and terrain_lavapot things.

Just suggesting things, in case you are still brainstorming in that field.
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Post by Nemon »

Scamp wrote:[url=http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/7086/tyrion.jpg]Clickey[/url]
This is why I luv ju.
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