House Telvanni Faction Quest Design

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Gez
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Post by Gez »

So, I've just reread the old faction book/Telvanni recruitment propaganda [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Affairs_of_Wizards]The Affairs of Wizards[/url]. The [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes3Mod:Tamriel_Rebuilt/The_Affairs_of_Wizards]TR version[/url] is basically identical.

It's written by some "Turedus Talanian" (Imperial-sounding name) and it directs people to the Mages Guild.

How much of that actually fit the Telvanni as we want to portray them (since it's a book they're publishing), and how much is Bethesda holding the players' hands?
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Post by Haplo »

Gez wrote:I just worry about shallowness.

We could have an upside-down imperial castle floating high above Port Telvannis, inhabited by a bunch of ghosts, and give absolutely no explanation why the fuck this even exists. It certainly would be mysterious and fantasy. It would also be stupid.
I think we can all agree there is a huge gap between zero mystery and magic, and your example.
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Gez
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Post by Gez »

If you're not comfortable with hyperbole, let's try simile.

We could put a badass fighter who is level 9000, with a billion hit points. Why is he so badass? No reason, he just is. Fantasy! Magic! Uberkewlness!

If the Dust Adepts have for only reason of existence to be mysterious, they end up being shallow. And moddy.

They don't need to have everything about them explained unambiguously and made mundane. Just to have some depth. TES is full of mysteries, and these mysteries work not because of some random unexplained monkeycheese, but because we can find some details that hint about the greater depths behind them. See: disappearance of the dwarves; story behind Nerevar's death; real nature of Vivec's divinity (Heart, CHIM, dunmer faith, all three?); relationship between Lorkhan, Akatosh, and the Shezzarines; lunar lattice or: do the Khajiit actually serve a purpose; the Dragon Breaks; the Psijic; Atmora; Akavir; Left-Handed Elves; etc.

None of these things are just random kewlness.

vvvv
When one is even superficially familiar with Kirkbride's reference, a name like "left-handed" is enough to basically describe the salient part of what these elves could be.

And the disappearance of the dwarves had no definitive explanation in the game, but there was several hypotheses, including one that was IIRC revealed even before the game was out, in a promotional stunt (Skeleton Man's interview).
Last edited by Gez on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Sload »

EDIT: There is in fact a very specific identity for the Dust Adepts which I laid out in my first post about the dust adepts in this thread for anyone familiar with the Morrowind backstory, but that's not actually the point. Fantastic stories are told in broad strokes. Your examples are bad things because they are of a bad tone. The Dust Adepts as here described are not like that. Saying they are like that does not make them like that. Your approach to TES lore has always been pedantic, so I guess its not shocking that you can't see that distinction. But virtually all of those things you listed were mysterious nonsense to the audience for some period of the time. In fact, we know that in Ken Rolston's opinion (though not Michael Kirkbride), there was no explanation about what happened to the Dwarves or Nerevar, meaning those were just 'moddy' bullshit. Except they weren't.

I will attach a .txt in a minute with a brief commentary on the Dust Adepts for anyone who doesn't want to play the game of coming up with your own explanation for them. Your explanations would be no less correct, inherently, so I encourage people not to read this .txt.

EDIT2: Reading over your list, I can say with certainty that no one has any clear idea who the Left-Handed Elves were or what they were about, except for the very vague references in the Sword-Meeting to the fact that they may have taught the Yoku shehai. I made up some stuff once while talking to MK and he was generally positive about it, but the Left-Handed Elves are just a name. I actually know this material pretty well, so you should only say things you're certain about.

Find my explanation of the Dust Adepts attached.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

My two cents:

- On the landscape: Start from scratch, and use the best of Maps 1 and 2 for inspiration to rebuild. To me its a simple practicality: I think it would be far less work, be far less depressing for people, and give better results if working off a good height map (so an overall plan will be materialised. Truthfully, I think the Velothi Mountains came out awesome largely due to its height map whereas Roth Roryn didn't reach its potential because it didn't have one).

- On the Boethian Mountains: yes to adding some snow and yes to making them large and impressive. And have new textures for them to make them stand out as unique. But please don't make them like the Velothis or 'cliff-y' and go for something that will look and play differently. I know these images I'm linking to are wildly inappropriate but what about something craggy, multi-levelled, disjointed and heavily eroded?
[url]http://www.indiana.edu/~sierra/papers/2003/Hong_files/Hong_img_6.jpg[/url]
[url]http://splashingpaint.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/imgp7767.jpg[/url]
[url]http://splashingpaint.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/imgp7698.jpg[/url]
[url]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8244/8666143594_edf31aa785_z.jpg[/url]
[url]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7iKJB7DJaOs/Ty5xISUfi-I/AAAAAAAAADg/8S5SJtkglqc/s320/173+Helm+Crag+280511.JPG[/url]

- To play with fire when I know you're going the opposite direction: Add a few more Telvanni towers. I reckon you'll get a lot more activity and interest if you increase the chance that modders will be able to play around with Telvanni architecture. Plus it'll make the Telvanni Isles a lot less dull if there are people out there. New towers wouldn't need to be large settlements (no more than 10 ints at the absolute max), they wouldn't need to be involved with epic plot lines and you wouldn't need many either. Telvanni interiors are also more fun to make than MH, for example. *Feasibility*: I know nothing of NPCing so I have no idea of the practicality of doing this. Also from what I remember the exterior Telvanni set could do with a few new pieces.
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Post by rot »

Nomadic1 wrote: - To play with fire when I know you're going the opposite direction: Add a few more Telvanni towers. I reckon you'll get a lot more activity and interest if you increase the chance that modders will be able to play around with Telvanni architecture.
There will be Telvanni tower dungeons :>
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Post by Yeti »

Your "Telvannis Exterior Changes.pdf" isn't downloading correctly for me Sload. Could you try re-posting it?
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Post by Sload »

here try this
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Post by Gez »

The Boethian Mountain Lighthouse would have to go. First I don't like much the reuse of the Seyda Neen lighthouse mesh -- it's a wonky shape that looks like it should be unique -- and secondly it contradicts many stuff about the Telvanni that we have already established or that this remake is supposed to establish.

I was reminded of that by seeing [url=http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1468418-show-us-what-youre-working-on-40/page-4#entry22938229]this guy[/url] making a model of a [url=http://pic.fullrest.ru/upl/W9rSs42Y.jpg]Telvanni lighthouse[/url] based on [url=http://leksotiger.deviantart.com/art/The-southeast-of-Vvardenfell-304743746]this picture[/url]. While the model likes good (and would be better than the common/nordic Seyda Neen lighthouse with a shroom in it that we currently have), we probably shouldn't have an isolated lighthouse in Telvanni wilderness at all.
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Post by Yeti »

That model look's pretty cool to me. Perhaps we could come up with a less mundane use for it than a lighthouse?

Concerning Sload's exterior pdf (which I can now safely download) there isn't much I feel I need to comment on. I still don't really see the point of removing Bahrammu from the map. Sure, it doesn't add much to the world, but we don't gain anything substantial from removing it either, as far as I can see. Otherwise, I agree with pretty much all the suggested changes. Thank goodness we're finally finding consensus on what to do with our outdated areas.

I'm in favor of keeping Ashamul and making it home to an impoverished group of Velothi. Perhaps it might even be worth expanding to create a larger marginalized mountain community? The Boethian Mountains seem like a good place to nestle settlements that are truly cut off from the outside world -places where Dunmer culture is still practiced at its most simplest form without going full-on Ashlander. Needless to say, there's always potential for having a ton of crazy hermits living in the mountains as well.


On a similar note, I see no harm in keeping Baldrahn and Hla Bulor. In my opinion, it would be worth scattering a few token dirt poor Dunmer settlements, barely surviving through subsistence means, around Telvannis. Putting a little extra emphasis on how Telvanni don't care about poor people can't hurt, and these would be good places to show the complete isolation of the common people from the affairs of their Mage-Lords.

Also, I completely support making a Marog a Temple settlement on the site of Tel Muthada. Personally, I wouldn't mind if we kept the Tel Onoria part of the old Marog as it stands and cut the rest of the settlement to create a small independent tower on site. With that said, I wouldn't be against removing all traces of the Telvanni from the area. Kemel-ze is certainly more than impressive enough to stand on its own.
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Post by Theo »

OK, so I have inspected Firewatch and Helnim and must agree that Helnim is huge and Firewatch completely bland.

Both cities would surely benefit from reduction of space they occupy, no matter the number of interiors.

For Firewatch I would think it would complete suffice to rearrange the existing houses to create a more urban environement (that is more compact).
Right now it is more like a village within a town walls. It even contains a freaking corkbulb field. Who in their right mind would build a hugeass town walls to protect a crop of corkbulb?
Imperials sure did not come here to grow corkbulb.

Not sure about the library, but I am sure using a replica of a governors mansion from Caldera is not a good idea. This building has a unique shape and should be used for a unique purpose. That goes for the militia house in Helnim too.

Helnim: Most of my experience from navigating in Helnim was running in circles around that stupid Governors hall, which was inconveniently placed in the middle of the town and was accesible only from one side so it was blocking all natural passage from one side of the city to another. This governor must truly hate his citizen a lot.

While I like the use of unique architecture set pieces and the general layout of this mansion, I am more then certain it should not be placed in the center of the town, especially one such as Helnim.

Perhaps this (and the marketplace) could be moved from Helnim to Firewatch as an actual seat of Imperial power in Telvanis.
I would also remove all of the adjacent common houses (I mean those with gray roof), because they mostly contain shops and commoner interiors with filler NPCs.
Perhaps the best idea would be to translocate them all to Firewatch, put them together with Firewatch ones and then see which of them are worth keeping and which can be cut. This would also give a distinct architectural style both To FW and Helnim.

With removal of the shacks and common houses, there would be only about ~23 of nord houses left in Helnim out of 60. I would also cut most of the tall houses as they are of quite unique shape and should not be used too much or it looks rather silly.

Even with 15-20 houses and some clever use of terrain Helnim could be made into a small cramped town too, even more than it is now, because there would not be this huge mansion ending each single road after two houses in a row.

EDIT: Quick sketch - Less interiors, less space, less repetitiveness, more distinct and uniform style, more exploration.
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Post by Gez »

Fully agree on not reusing unique-looking meshes like the Seyda Neen lighthouse, Caldera Governor's mansion, and so on.

Another thing about the governor mansion: its architecture style is very different from the imperial castle tileset. It's built with rough stones and plaster; not the calibrated dark green stones of the castle. Crenelations and arrowslits are completely different too. They fit together as well as Hlaalu and Redoran buildings. Sure, both the mansion and the castle are Imperial; but both Hlaalu and Redoran are Dunmer.

Another thing about Helnim's mansion: plugging a roof with two TR_ex_Imp_RoofF_04 pieces makes no sense at all. Why would anyone build a balcony that cannot be reached? It's ridiculous.

Also fully agree on moving the corkbulb field out of the city. There could be a small park with a tree or two, but otherwise a medieval city is meant to be cramped as the real-estate within the walls is extremely limited and used as much as possible. (That's why you had these old houses where each story looms a bit more over the street; and frequently "house bridges" over the street. Also, actual bridges were covered in houses, too; something which is basically impossible to do on Morrowind's scale.)

Speaking of which, one thing to avoid absolutely:
[url=http://imgur.com/jWfPviH][img]http://i.imgur.com/jWfPviHl.png[/img][/url]
This is a gratuitous waste of real estate. Also, arrowslits there do not make sense. What are you going to do with them, shoot the shingles off the roof?
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Post by Yeti »

Gez wrote:Also, actual bridges were covered in houses, too; something which is basically impossible to do on Morrowind's scale.)
You haven't seen Almas Thirr.

Concerning your mock-up, Theo, only using the Nord houses would look too repetitive, imo.
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Post by Swiftoak »

I would like to draw your attention to this new map outlining regions and changes to the shape. For Regions, I've pretty much decided to accept Sload's proposal with a few minor changes. (Mostly concerning the size of "Helnim Valley")

As for the shape of the mainland, I think we should shorten the peninsula a little, and give more space to the Inner Sea. This means turning the northernmost "finger-like" formation of the peninsula into islands that will comprise the Sheogorad (in the west) and the Telvanni Isles regions (in the east) respectively. Since more islands are desired. The only settlement that would move according to this plan would be Tel Ouada (since the mouth of the Molagreadh river is slightly more south). Bal Oyra is moot since I assume we're scrapping it. That other shack village can be moved to any of those "Sheogorad" Islands.

Though rot says that I might have added too much islands in the TI region, which while I agree with, I still am curious to hear others' opinions on this.

Which brings us to another matter. The idea of having the Telvanni Isles surrounded entirely by a root barrier, a twisted, natural defense that makes it difficult to reach the islands by sea or foot except for Telvanni-sanctioned riverstrider travel to Gah Sadrith (where the player will be marked before entering PT).

I personally like this idea because it isolates the core Telvanni even more, and gives a purpose to all those new islands that surround the main isle.

Though this could work equally well with seafloor, opening new avenues for undersea exploration (which is a weak point in our landscape frankly). Having root-mazes to explore around the TI would be awesome.

Relevant IRC discussion.
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Post by Sload »

Not convinced we want to go down a road that looks like completing revoking Maps 1 & 2 and entirely abandoning the old overworld map. Not sure the gain is valuable enough for the effort.

I do not otherwise have much opinion except that the Telvanni Isles Region looks bad on the map, which is the only place its shape matters. "Gahvan" (barF) should be broken up so it doesn't look like the other islands are the fractal border to its Mandelbrot set.
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Post by Swiftoak »

Meh. I suppose it will be Nemon's call eventually. I don't see a problem either way.

If we are making a new height map for "Old Map 1" (which I am in the camp that says we should), we should use such oppurunity to debate such changes at the very least, consider them. I would like Nemon to chime in on how much effort this will take, or what his opinion is on what we need to scrap/redo/only fix.

This means we don't have to abandon the overworld. In fact, most of my map keeps to it. The only other noticeable change asides from the fingers (and the islands), would be moving the coast in a little around the Ayemar/KZ area.

In my plan, only a 35% of Telvannis district as a whole would actually be redone entirely from scratch using a heightmap (For the Boethians mostly). Some say we need to axe everything north of Necrom, though I'm more conservative in that matter.

Otherwise I actually firmly agree with you Sload on examining the rest of it on a case by case basis, and doing necessarily overhauls over existing landscape. (like adjusting the coast wouldn't be hard on existing parts of Old M2).

As for the Tevanni Isles, that's still being debated. I drew some islands arbitrarily, but I'd rather discuss what's actually going to be on them (hence the rootfence idea). The shape can come after that. Though I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this:
"Gahvan" (barF) should be broken up so it doesn't look like the other islands are the fractal border to its Mandelbrot set.
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Post by Sload »

I mean that the main island is too big for it to look good. Well, maybe not, but you definitely can't just be adding islands around it, leaving this big island in the middle. It looks like they broke off of it, like its the mothership, just not how an archipelago seems like it should look.
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Post by Swiftoak »

So perhaps we should break up the main island then, instead of adding more around them?

I think the shape of the islands should somehow reflect the feeling of how the Telvanni isolate themselves. Maybe we don't need one whole island. Heck, maybe we can turn it into a chain of islands and have the twisty rootjungle grow amongst those little islands that make up the "Telvanni Isles".

I kind of want to show some way the Telvanni isolate themselves other than having an island out in the sea. Maybe we should shape the islands based on that mentality. I'm not the best clearly when it comes to thinking of story/concept stuff which is why your input would be valued. We shouldn't make these islands easily navigable at all, or accessible for that matter.
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Post by Gez »

It's been one big island surrounded by two other smaller islands on every official map since the very beginning of the franchise. Changing that just because it would look prettier on the map seems absolutely pointless.

I guess you could break it up a bit by adding small rivers here and there. It'd alter the look on the in-game map without changing the landmass.
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Post by Sload »

gez shut the fuck up about stupid shit like that that no one cares about. there is absolutely nothing wrong with changing the shape of islands that nothing has been said about but some lines on the map. bethesda did it when they made morrowind. your posts have been consistently unhelpful and stupid and also really smarmy, please develop a sense of awareness of how useful your contributions are going to be or stop posting.
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Post by Mwgek »

I think the city of Telvannis itself could be divided over smaller islands. With their magical feeling and the river strider they will not have problems navigating to them. The whole detailing of these maps is lacking anyway and should be overhauled when the current exterior progress is somewhat finished, which would take a while to say the least.
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Post by Gez »

[quote="Sload"][/quote]
If I cared one iota for your approval, I wouldn't post. But I don't care about you, so you can fuck right of. When you want to introduce pointless changes just because of an irrelevant aspect, I'm going to call you out on it, because it would be great if we could avoid wasting time on pointless shit.

What is there to gain from splitting the island? "Sload is happier with how it looks on the minimap." Big fucking deal. If that's all it's good for, it's not worth bothering with.
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Post by Swiftoak »

*sigh* Oh please you guys. I'm starting to regret bringing this up. Before this gets out of hand, let me try and conciliate. I'm sure this was all just a misunderstanding. I very much doubt Sload (or anyone else here for that matter) wouldn't propose such changes if there wasn't any conceptual reasoning behind it. This after all isn't 2005 TR.

So the more I think of it, the better I like Sload's idea of splitting the main island up. It's absolutely not about making it look pretty on the map.

Let me clarify.

We can still maintain somewhat of a basic outline that keeps with Beth's original map, but as Sload mentioned, the world shant end if we make such deviations. Beth's done it, we've done it (ie Narsis location), and if need be we'll do it again.

If we turn the big island into a chain of smaller islands, in the shape of what is illustrated in the Beth Map, that would still be acceptable IMO. In fact, I think oftentimes these changes are necessary. Concept maps are concept maps. They are just that. In Beth's original concept map, Vvardenfell looked like a potato. In the Oblivion map of Morrowind, they don't evben show stuff like the islands in Zafribel Bay, or the Thirr River.

Since Beth never actually got to fleshing out Mainland Morrowind, they never bothered to properly resolve the outline of it either. That only happens when they're actually making the exterior. That's why you still see the simplistic depictions of certain things. Because they are only of an illustrative nature. Same as with my map. Sure I traced it based on the current landmass and made my changes, but it's still of an illustrative nature, not some rock-hard bible we have to follow.

There is conceptual reasoning behind wanting to make such modifications. The Telvanni Isles should be a true archipaelego (I can't spell today). We should be free to make such deviations if they are in the interest of fitting the conceptual mold of that region, which as-so-happens, should be changed to reflect the isolationism of the Telvanni capital. It's not about making things look cool in the minimap. Stuff like a rootmaze would make more sense when the isles are broken up, and difficult to navitage.

Here's another example of what I mean: I want to keep some of the new islands in Sheogorath because they make it difficult for ships to enter the Inner Sea. Not because I think they look cool on a minimap.

Now let's put the F bombs and shape nonsense aside, and let's actually talk about some of the things I *did* want to bring up, like what's actually going to be on those islands, and how do we justify making these shape changes. Such as the rootmaze idea, or something else.
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Post by Gez »

It's a better point, but what serves the thematic of isolationism best: one single large island, or an archipelago of small islets connected by a root network?

Also, fragmentation conveys weakness, and despite their internal fights, the Telvanni aren't weak. Nor are they truly fragmented, if we go with this:
gro-Dhal wrote: -Obviously there's no such thing as Rogue Telvanni
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Post by Swiftoak »

The roots would serve as a natural barrier, they wouldn't connect anything. They're a natural defense that makes it virtually impossible to navigate the isles. Think hedge-mazes but in a schizophrenic Telvanni way. I suppose the isles wouldn't necessarily have to be broken up, but the maze of both roots combined with fragmentation is a surefire way to hinder navigation. The roots tear the land asunder resulting in the various network of islands that form the chain. For all I care, we could come up with some weird backstory in which the Telvanni wield some sort of earth-bending sorcery that can make this happen.

My opinion is that it would break things up if we had these root mazes on both land and water, instead of having it all on just one island. We can put in cool shipwrecks that were pried from the sea and are now dangling in the air. Only the riverstriders can navigate this maze successfully. Although with a little perseverance, the player can reach PT on their own steam, but the point is to make it very hard for them to do so.

As for fragmentation = weakness, true it may be, but it would be cool if we could somehow defy that trope and show that in the case of Telvanni, fragmentation = strength.

Bleh, maybe Sload can elaborate on his reasons though, I'm curious to hear. And perhaps Nemon can elaborate on the practicality of this idea.
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Post by Adanorcil »

Gez: I'd be the first to defend symbolism, but your whole isolationism / fragmentation argument seems pretty weak imo. There's far more useful metaphorical material to work with and besides, the Telvanni are the most disparate and quarrelsome motherfuckers around to begin with. The three players who might potentially even consider a single island as indicative of something totally wouldn't mind a number of islands either, because it looks better and offers more content.

Older Bethesda maps have to be respected only in the broadest of terms. Just look at what changes Skyrim underwent between [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/gallery_files/obcodex_skyrim.jpg]here[/url] and [url=http://origin.playstationlifestyle.net/assets/uploads/2011/10/Skyrim-Map-685x462.jpg]here[/url]. To do otherwise would be an impossible limitation.
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Post by Gez »

Adanorcil wrote:Gez: I'd be the first to defend symbolism, but your whole isolationism / fragmentation argument seems pretty weak imo. There's far more useful metaphorical material to work with and besides, the Telvanni are the most disparate and quarrelsome motherfuckers around to begin with.
True, but I've always gotten the feeling that their internal struggles are purely internal. I don't see Telvanni Lord A allying himself with the Empire/Temple/other Great House in order to vanquish Telvanni Lord B.

Small islands also tend to be dependent territories or subsistence economies, as they lack the resources and ecosystems offered by larger landmasses. Not necessarily important given that this is "Wizards did it" land (and/or it can be turned into one more reason for the Telvanni's expansionism), but it's there too. Mostly it means the landbound random encounters will have to be magical in nature -- errant daedra and undead -- rather than more-or-less natural predators.

Something like the Sadas Plantation would no longer be justifiable.
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Post by Yeti »

Gez wrote:Something like the Sadas Plantation would no longer be justifiable.
Why not?
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Post by Swiftoak »

The island chain could work better with Sload's original concept of PT which was to have it spread over different towers. We ncould have islands of different heights and still incorporate some of the cliffy-ness of the original plan. I think we need some solid concept art for the isles, as it seems there are many contradicting opinions regarding it. It would help if we had some mockups.

As for settlements, I mostly agree with Sload stuff. Here are my opinions on the matter.

I'm completely fine with Ashamul and Bahldrahn. Ashamul is just a cave settlement. Bahldrahn is currently on GL like terrain. In our redo, this will all be Boethian Mountains, and it would be nice to have a shack village nestled somewhere in those mountains. It would have to be repurposed somehow though as it would no longer be a muckfarm.

I should have deleted Cephorad while I was still working on Mainland. The more I think of it, it's just a cheap way to show some cliche Telvanni vs. Imperial trope. So absolutely no qualms with that.

Hla Bulor? It's three huts. I'm not sure we should keep this. Especially with the talk of scrapping Lake Boethia, these shacks wouldn't serve any purpose. There's one quest involving a problematic nord. We could just separate the shacks and move them in the wilderness/repurposing them to be wilderness dwellings.

Heleran's Lodge seems pretty random, and I don't think we need her to have a seperate homestead for the lady. She's a spellwright, and would be better fit serving in a Sadrith (probably Tel Narussa) than having her own homestead far from her master.

I personally don't care about Tel Aranyon. Only thing is what we would do about the Mithras questline we have now. The whole Tel/Velothi hybrid thing is getting too repetitive. Ranyon-rhun would be the largest Velothi settlement in Telvannis district, and would be the only place the Temple has any hold on the region.

If the above holds true, Llothanis would have a tower and Mithras would be its' new wizard, with Bal-Gernak taking over afterwards. RR would still have ties to Tel Llothan due to it's proximity, allowing the whole Mithras-RR connection to be preserved to some extent, though I know not how.

As for Helnim, although I like the cramped streets, there are FAR too many interiors as many will agree. We already have something like that in Old Ebonheart. Scaled way down to Tier III, something like Caldera. And I mean conceptaully, as well as its' physical size. A T3 settlement with a particular purpose. As Caldera was a mining town, Helnim serves as a regional HQ for the EEC, as well as the administrative offices of the IAS, while off-site. We can easily do away with many of the shops and residences. Maybe repurpose some interiors with matching shells for OE?

I don't really get Tel Muthada. From what I'm reading, we would have two Marogs. One Velothi village in the "valley" and a tower beside Kemel-Ze? I'm a bit off-put with the idea of moving Marog inland. I think we could change Marog into a cliffside shack village with two velothi-style buildings. A modest house for the hetman of the village, and a tradehouse for tourists/IAS people who are visiting the ruins. So Marog would be downgraded to a Tier IV settlement.

I would replace Tel Muthada with a Tier V velothi farming settlement, something like Evos. It could be a muckfarming village that comes into play in the Helnim-Tel Narussa conflict? We don't need another Temple settlement in the region (as per my opinion of RR above).
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Post by Yeti »

Not sure how I feel about having shacks near Kemel-ze, but otherwise your suggestions seem reasonable to me, Swifty.
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Post by Swiftoak »

I don't know either. Shacks seem more subtle, blending into the landscape more.

I only thought that having Marog in close proximity to the ruin would support the idea of it being looted, and works nicely with "Ruins of Kemel-Ze", but as always I'm probably putting my nose too much into the books, and that the world won't end if we move it slightly away to the Tel Muthada site (still close enough I suppose).

Oh another landscaping idea for the peninsula Marog/Kemel-Ze currently sits on, totally try and make it [url=http://mindreels.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/pyke.jpg]Pyke-ish[/url]. (yes I'm totally into SoIaF right now as you can tell). It would have to be carefully engineered so that it wouldn't invalidate the interior, but it would look kind of cool for that peninsula. And make it so that you can only get there by boat?
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Post by rot »

re plantations: ----> bug musk plantations.

Bug musk is supposed to be such a big deal. Not to mention it needs something cool figured out about it as to why only the Telvanni (!) make it,
Also does it come from muskflies now? Iiuc the only justification for ever having beetles was the bug musk, maybe make use of both bugs (muskfly's the bee and beetles the flower?) and throw in some secret fungo-organic magic.

But to get back to exteriors since that's what this thread seems to be about now, how do you make bugmusk plantations / where do you place them?
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Post by Swiftoak »

Here's a new map containing regions, settlements, and roads.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/8or ... rld%5D.pdf

It's pretty self-explanatory. I took extensive consideration towards Sload, and other suggestions as well as some of my own.

On Roads: I don't think Telvannis should have that many roads. Primary reason being the typical isolationist Telvanni policy, and the fact that badass Telvanni wizards don't need them. I have one main road from Firewatch-Tel Ouada-Ranyon-rhun. From there the road splits, one heads east and follows the coast like it does now, ending up in Necrom. The other road branches off, winding through the Boethians before reaching Helnim. This road continues south to Ayemar/Akamora/Darnim. There's a road connecting Helnim through the mountains east to Windmoth where they meet the Coastal road.

The interior of the Boethians should be accessible only through poorly-marked side-paths and well-thought out natural ridges and valleys carved in the mountains. This is a wilderness region after all, and marked roads should be kept to a minimum. The main Helnim-Firewatch route is downgraded to a side-path-bypass. The main road now passes through Ranyon-rhun before heading to Helnim. I sort of thought that the Imperials in Telvannis rely more on maritime travel than land travel. But I could be wrong in this aspect.

I'm also debating the main road between Tel Llothan and Tel Bosara. It would sorta be neat of Shroomcoast had no roads. Again because the Telvanni are badass wizards and don't need roads. Travel should only be by boat/or better yet riverstrider. Other than that I've done my best to keep to the existing road patterns for the most part.

I wanted to add in potential travel-links too, but the map is messy enough as is. It's an editable PDF, so you can open it up using your favourite vector-editing program (Inkscape or Illustrator) and edit the individual layers as you please.

Don't take this map too closely, as I said it's of a somewhat illustrative nature, though I hope it gives a good overview/groundwork of a cohesive, regional plan.
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Post by Nemon »

We should keep lake Boethia because it looks cool, and serve a cosmetic, worldbuilding purpose. We can have a different flora and hidden, rewarding things submerged that would otherwise be lost if land based.

Examples from Skyrim:
Lake at half moon mill: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120123132933/elderscrolls/images/7/71/Halfmoon_Mill.png

Riften lake: http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5049/2012041000008.jpg

The worth of these areas would be lowered if those areas were the bland, repeated grass/hills/snow that the other 99% of Skyrim is. If you're afraid we're running out of real estate then by all means - we can expand if we're remaking most of it anyway.

Water looks cool, is interesting, adds landscape value. Judging a lake by its old merits just because it was lame is dumb when you have a team of exterior modders more than capable to make it better, up to 2013 standards, nowadays.
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Post by Swiftoak »

I think Sload doesn't want another inland lake because we already have a few where they make more sense (like Andram and Coronati, and Cormar). Areas whose economies are subsistent on having bodies of water nearby (farming/irrigation/etc). Whereas Telvannis is more cray-cray in terms of landscape, and not as fertile, save for mushrooms and sadrith stuffs.

I'm sort of in-between to be frank. Nemon has valid points as well. Perhaps the lake could be a neat sub-region that breaks up the huge mountain range. I would be more inclined if we could do lakes with different water levels, but given engine limitations, we'd have to pull substantial amount of high mountains to ground level, so if we do this, there would probably need to be more justification besides it looks great. (I'm not doubting you at all by the way, but we should probably come up with an actual concept behind its' inclusion). The lake should support the broader concept of the economy in Telvannis. I do like the potential of having a secluded lake surrounded entirely by mountains. But we'd have to do it right this time.

If we keep the lake, I highly suggest not keeping its' present shape which looks more like a river. Especially with MGE users, the lake becomes more of a river. I would make it wider and rounder, but not as long. Maybe have the north shore end at Adurin-Oek. Real world analogs would be Lake Baikal or something like [url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Grand_Lake.jpg]this[/url]. Maybe even a cliffy/abrupt shoreline?
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Post by Rats »

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:If we keep the lake, [...] Maybe even a cliffy/abrupt shoreline?
Or maybe a weird [url=http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/aral-sea-ships.jpg]dried out lake[/url] due to some magical catastrophe/experiment by the Telvanni? Might be interesting to explore "seafloor" on foot.
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Post by Swiftoak »

A 1000 times yes to the dried out lake idea. Then we wouldn't give a fig about fixed water levels.


Also, here's another PDF on travel links.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/w95 ... nks%5D.pdf


Again, most of it is pretty self-explanatory. Telvanni only use their waterstriders, no boats. Boats are an Imperial thing mostly. Silt-striders connect temple and other dunmeri settlements inland. I'm trying to debate on a link between RR and either Tel Oren or Tel Llothan. RR could be a great staple for the conflict between Mithras and Rathra. Maybe quest-dependent travel links will open up based on decisions the player makes during the questline? Decisions that will influence RR in some manner. Due to the ambivalent attitude the Telvanni take towards the Temple, I don't want to make fast travel to Akamora/Necrom easy. The same reason I didn't make it easy for Imperials/Telvanni either. (IE boats to/from Imperial settlements would arrive in a new port at Wolverine Hall, not Sadrith Mora proper). Maybe a boat link to Vos will open up if the player takes Aryon's side.

One thing I forgot to mention in my other post with my other map is how I moved Tel Narussa to be across that new river in Helnim. This will suit the Narussa v. Imperials narrative alot better than the stupid setup with Helnim we have now. The two will now be on opposing riverbanks. The road will pass through Helnim, and not Narussa. Boats in Helnim, riverstriders in Narussa.

Modifications of VV will be inevitable in the future, but I think this plan is more reasonable than what we have now, fast-travel based simply on Town A being close to town B, not fast-travel based on the cultural and political aspects of Morrowind. Of course though, most of these lines I just made up, and are my opinion only. Feel free to debate them.
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Post by Yeti »

Making the lake completely dry sort of defeats Nemon's desire for water scenery.

When it come to keeping the lake or removing it, I sort of prefer keeping it, but only if we can make it different from the other one's we have planned for the mainland. Having a large body of water doesn't necessarily mean the surrounding terrain needs to lush, for instance. Making Lake Boethiah (or whatever we end up calling it) extremely barren and devoid of life could be an interesting way to show how unusually hostile the Telvanni lands are.

[url=http://www.mountainsoftravelphotos.com/Tibet/Lhasa%20To%20Shegar/slides/Tibet%2005%2004%20Lake%20From%20Simi%20La.JPG]Some[/url] [url=http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7222/6976512816_6f3d2a32d9_o.jpg]Food[/url] [url=http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/http-inlinethumb21.webshots.com-22484-2592936640102347975S600x600Q85.jpg]For[/url] [url=http://www.cepolina.com/photo/Asia/air-views-Asia/5/Asia-Mongolia-desert-lake.jpg]Thought[/url]

I agree with you Swifty when it comes to making fast travel between towns dependent on more interesting concepts besides "Town A is close to Town B." Limiting fast travel between Ranyon-ruhn and the next closest Temple settlements is a good idea if we want to empathize its isolation. With that said, I also really want to keep the town's neat siltstrider port.
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Post by Swiftoak »

Yeah. Maybe a one-way silt strider connection between Llothan and RR? And a one-way riverstrider to Ouada. Could be Mithras and Rathra competing for influence over the town. I've actually never played the Mithras questline so I'm not very familiar with it, but perhaps someone who is can chime in on this.

I'm fine with your idea of an arid lake too. I just dont want debate ad nauseum :P Frankly I'm eager to get some pallettes for some of the simpler regions that don't need new assets. If and when we begin, we should start to rework these areas first, while Nemon or whoever works on the new heightmap for the upper half of the peninsula (Map 1).

Let's focus on the areas that encompass everything between Helnim and Akamora. These areas I believe do not need an entirely new heightmap. There will be massive overhauls no doubt, but I honestly believe that the current terrain is workable manually on a case-by-case basis. (I'm not talking statics here, or textures, just raw landscape).

The Helnim Valley could be a more lush variation of the AC palette so it doesn't look jarring against the rest of the AC that borders it. Something like even the grassy area of AC that's on VV just west of Holamayan. With lots of pools. Pools of muck. But fertile relative to the rest of the region. I don't think we even need new textures for this region. Throw in some vanilla shrooms here and there. This could easily be done by throwing out all the GL stuff from current Helnim fields, lowering it to near-water level, and putting more AC-like flora around. Of course it wouldn't be simple and things still need to be thought out, but of all the new regions, this looks like the easiest to do without throwing everything out of the window. The people here are very simple minded, and I think the existing farms (like Verlan) could support that. I wouldn't even mind re-distributing Hla Bulor shacks here as individual farmsteads. Smaller musk farms maybe? I have no idea.

Mainland AC is pretty much the same as vanilla AC. Though I'd like a rockier variation with more cliffs (they don't need to be super tall or anything), esp around Marog/KZ area. This would justify ship-only travel to Marog. I want the coast here to be especially rocky and treachaerous.

The Shroomcoast Region in this zone, we will simply retexture and rework as needed based on the current landscape, which is already at a low elevation. Again once all the statics are gone. We might be able to get away with using AC textures with Worsas' lovely shrooms which are already in Data, yet remain unused.

The Boethians in this area will be the area that requires the most work, but they're not as tall as they descend south into the Mephalains. Therefore I think we can simply raise/adjust the current landmass without the crazyness required of scrapping everything. Obviously the range closest to the new M1 heightmnap would be higher than say, the foothills around Tel Bosara. They would also be extended into the eastern half of what is formerly the Helnim Fields. We can most likely manually raise the terrain here as well, after we axe all the statics and such from them.
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Post by Sload »

Gez wrote:
Sload wrote:
If I cared one iota for your approval, I wouldn't post. But I don't care about you, so you can fuck right of. When you want to introduce pointless changes just because of an irrelevant aspect, I'm going to call you out on it, because it would be great if we could avoid wasting time on pointless shit.

What is there to gain from splitting the island? "Sload is happier with how it looks on the minimap." Big fucking deal. If that's all it's good for, it's not worth bothering with.
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