Love your map Swifty.
1] I certainly like the concept of Helnim Valley as lush AC area with muckpools.
2] The Azurian straits should extend down to inlet bog. There is currently a patch of Grazelands wich looks totally awful, if yo ask me.
3] I am not verry happy about areas surronding mephalain mountains, especially south of Dun Akafel. The smooth transition really does not work here. Perhaps Mephalains, being so cliffy, should be sharply divided by cliffs on its edges too. This would correspond to the easternmost part of Mephalain Mountains too.
4] Again, using cliffs around Boethian lake, as someone suggested, would not only save a lot of space, but would create an impression of deadly and hostile chasm filled with rainwater, rather than rivers and streams. A unique flora and fauna could inhabit this secluded area.
5] The Molagrehad should also be relatively lush compared to Vvardenfel GL and area around Firewatch, as most rocky GL are already represented in Roth Roryn.
House Telvanni Faction Quest Design
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Swiftoak
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I fully agree on all those points Theo.
Yes. I've been toying with the idea of moving both musk plantations to "HF" area. I know this is a rather bold suggestion, given the fact that the concept behind Rathra and the Molagreadh centers on musk trade, I feel it would be somehwat more appropriate to have it near Helnim. Because the EEC has an office there, and having them compete with Tel Narussa over the musk trade would slightly make more sense if the farming was centered on this area. (I'm for moving the Sadas plantation off the Telvanni Isles since our concept for those will be changing radically). The interest in the musk trade could be shifted to whoever's holed up in Narussa. I don't know how this will sit with you folks. Feel free to call me out on this, since it would require a retooling of Rathra/Molagreadh concepts. Maybe Molagreath
As for AC to Inlet Bog. Absolutely yes. My intention is to extend AC all the way to Inlet Bog. Seems the most obvious plan, I too hated that loose GL, and it would make for a much smoother transition.
Molagreadh will probably not use any GL, and will require new textures.
As for the other parts such as Mephalains, I havent really figured out what. I think your sharp cliffs idea might work, but I think it will become clearer once we come up with a more unified concept for "Alt Orethan" because right now it's an awkward smattering of three(!) regional palettes, AC, GL, and WG. But now this is heading beyond Telvannis territory, so I'm not sure we should be discussing it here, at least not yet.
When I return in December, I may have time to churn out a palette or two for the Helnim Valley and Mainland AC regions. Maybe even shroomcoast as the majority of assets are already in Data. The other stuff like the Boethians, TI and Molagreadh should probably be conceptualized in the Lore or CA forums seperately, as these areas will require the most work. Not on a specific timeframe obviously, but neverless the discussion should take place. So when the time does eventually come, we won't spend another 3-4 years bickering about it
And as always, I'd love to hear more voices. Don't want to sound like I'm arbitrarily making possibly uninformed decisions heh. These are after all, just suggestions.
Yes. I've been toying with the idea of moving both musk plantations to "HF" area. I know this is a rather bold suggestion, given the fact that the concept behind Rathra and the Molagreadh centers on musk trade, I feel it would be somehwat more appropriate to have it near Helnim. Because the EEC has an office there, and having them compete with Tel Narussa over the musk trade would slightly make more sense if the farming was centered on this area. (I'm for moving the Sadas plantation off the Telvanni Isles since our concept for those will be changing radically). The interest in the musk trade could be shifted to whoever's holed up in Narussa. I don't know how this will sit with you folks. Feel free to call me out on this, since it would require a retooling of Rathra/Molagreadh concepts. Maybe Molagreath
As for AC to Inlet Bog. Absolutely yes. My intention is to extend AC all the way to Inlet Bog. Seems the most obvious plan, I too hated that loose GL, and it would make for a much smoother transition.
Molagreadh will probably not use any GL, and will require new textures.
As for the other parts such as Mephalains, I havent really figured out what. I think your sharp cliffs idea might work, but I think it will become clearer once we come up with a more unified concept for "Alt Orethan" because right now it's an awkward smattering of three(!) regional palettes, AC, GL, and WG. But now this is heading beyond Telvannis territory, so I'm not sure we should be discussing it here, at least not yet.
When I return in December, I may have time to churn out a palette or two for the Helnim Valley and Mainland AC regions. Maybe even shroomcoast as the majority of assets are already in Data. The other stuff like the Boethians, TI and Molagreadh should probably be conceptualized in the Lore or CA forums seperately, as these areas will require the most work. Not on a specific timeframe obviously, but neverless the discussion should take place. So when the time does eventually come, we won't spend another 3-4 years bickering about it
And as always, I'd love to hear more voices. Don't want to sound like I'm arbitrarily making possibly uninformed decisions heh. These are after all, just suggestions.
"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
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Bloodthirsty Crustacean
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If this extent of exterior redoing is definitely being seriously considered (and for sure, given infinite time and resources, it would be sorely appreciated), and that there's been a general consensus on the kinds of changes people are interested in since Sload posted up his .pdf a few pages back, I think it would be really useful to hear from Nemon on practicalities.
When would this exterior work get done (after Map 5 completed; after Almalexia released; as soon as possible)?
Would it be a total redo (new Map5 style heightmap, start from scratch and everything) or just some retooling and re-detailing?
Would exteriorer modders be able to deal with any problems introduced by deleting/relocating cities and buildings and their existing NPCs and quests?
If people need to start thinking a bit more realistically in terms of expectations, what would be a reasonable way of prioritising the work: focus on big city projects e.g. Port Telvannis; or on select regions; or return to the old claim boundaries?
Either way, I think a bit of practical input would be useful at this point in the conversation.
When would this exterior work get done (after Map 5 completed; after Almalexia released; as soon as possible)?
Would it be a total redo (new Map5 style heightmap, start from scratch and everything) or just some retooling and re-detailing?
Would exteriorer modders be able to deal with any problems introduced by deleting/relocating cities and buildings and their existing NPCs and quests?
If people need to start thinking a bit more realistically in terms of expectations, what would be a reasonable way of prioritising the work: focus on big city projects e.g. Port Telvannis; or on select regions; or return to the old claim boundaries?
Either way, I think a bit of practical input would be useful at this point in the conversation.
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a man melts the sand so he
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Swiftoak
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I'm not the HoE so I can't really say much. At the risk of sounding ridiculously verbose, here are my thoughts on your questions though.
When would this exterior work get done (after Map 5 completed; after Almalexia released; as soon as possible)?
It isn't my call, but the general consensus was to wait until everything was finished, and then return to Telvannis. While I do not like the idea of this detracting too much from our current priorities (shoving Alma out the door, and other exterior work/models for Dres), I do not really sit well with the idea on sitting on this forever. It's an elephant in our room, and sooner or later, we will have to rectify it. Now how we do this is a completely different matter, but I agree that it must be brought up now rather than later.
Here is my proposition on the matter:
Since TR is and always has been done on a voluntary basis, I see absolutely no reason to hold people back from working on what interests them, so long as we have a solid ground plan in place, and that such work will not slow down the current tasks at hand. We should break the work up in stages and look at the entire peninsula as a whole on a case-by-case basis. Some parts will need less work than others.
Tasks such as converting the stretch of coast between Darnim and Helnim to AC for example. We make such changes without dire reprecussions on the existing landscape. Sload already established a good concept on extending VV regions onto the mainland, so as far as I'm concerned we can start now. I don't kid you, it would be alot of work, but if Modder X is interested to do such work instead of Map 5 claims, and if we have a good plan for it already laid down, I see no reason why we should hold them back from doing so, while other ext. modders continue work on current priorities. Sure that might be one or two less modders working on newer stuff, but that's eventually less work later. And I see no reason why the two can't be worked on simultaneously. The work will have to be done anyways. Our exterior department doesn't seem to be lacking at this point. But again Nemon should correct me if I am wrong on this.
Would it be a total redo (new Map5 style heightmap, start from scratch and everything) or just some retooling and re-detailing?
Again as Sload mentioned a few pages back, such decisions would/should be made on a case-by-case basis. Though I would *love* nothing more than to take a shovel and make a new heightmap for everything above Necrom, I keep in mind for issues of practicality. As per my point above, some parts of the existing landscape (not statics, just the landscape) can simply be retooled without the need of starting from scratch.
However, alot of this stuff was made when we still had our "claim first, ask questions later" mentality, so inevitably alot of parts will need to be redone. Our current Telvannis lacks any foresight in terms of conceptual planning, and it clearly shows in the disjointed nature of the landscape. So all of it is beyond detailing. We could dump a million statics per cell and it wouldn't change the fact that we're simply polishing a turd. Like in a painting, broad strokes always come before the tiny details. And AFAIK our current broad strokes are FUBAR in Telvannis.
Would exteriorer modders be able to deal with any problems introduced by deleting/relocating cities and buildings and their existing NPCs and quests?
This is somewhat trickier, but not at all impossible if we stick to Sload's PDF, because he's already come up with a good center for House Telvanni, and some basic concepts for towns. Retooling quests/dialogue based on that would be a start. Miscellaneous quests should theoretically be less problematic since they don't deal with the Telvanni as a whole for the most part. So far the only places that are being axed entirely are Tel Muthada, Tel Aranyon, and Bal Oyra. The quests would need to be asessed individually to see if they're more trouble than they're worth to keep. The Mithras questline will probably be a whole discussion on itself. Stuff like this would be better left to quest/NPC people, and I would hope for their input on this discussion. Rest assured though, since most of our Telvanni questline hasn't been made, it shouldn't be as big of a challenge as it might seem right now.
Dungeon Interiors will most likely be kept, as they are for the most part, easily repurposed. There may be plans on adding new telvanni-specific dungeons. These would be altered/made on an individual basis.
Towns will be dealt with seperately as per Stage V in my proposed game plan below. Most of what I said above deals strictly with wilderness exteriors.
The Game Plan
So here's how I propose we break things up in terms of workload. I'm strictly speaking exterior-wise. We should break things up based on regions.
Stage 1: Azurian Coast between Marog and Darnim. Since a concept has been firmly established, and the task is simply extending Vanilla AC into the mainland with minimal assets, we could (theoretically) start work on this at any time. I could see this happening early next year.
Stage 2: "Helnim Valley" and Shroomcoast between the old Map 1 Border and Tel Bosara. These two regions require new palettes and further conceptualization in terms of House Telvanni (story concept). Further discussion on these two regions would be necessary, but no new assets need to be made, so these could come next. I'd like to discuss potentially moving the center of muck farming to Helnim Valley, hence why this should wait until we've cleared that up. I'm hoping Sload or someone might chime in on this. Specifically the musk farming bit, and the particular environmental conditions that are required for musk farming.
Stage 3: M1 Heightmap for everything north of Helnim . This would be the hardest thing to do, as we only have some vague ideas on landscape. Stuff like the AC up to Firewatch, Sheogorad, Shroomcoast, and Grazelands will be easy, but the Boethians and Molagreadh Regions need more extensive conceptualization. These places might be done using vanilla ground textures, but will require some new statics, mostly flora. The level of conceptualization needed here would probably be on the level of Uld Vraech. The Boethian Mountains south of the new heightmap will be raised and matched manually using existing landscape to the new heightmap. I believe our exterior modders are skilled enough to do this without making visible borders.
Stage 4: Telvanni Isles. This would be the last because they are a completely unique bioregion, and will probably need alot of new meshes and textures for the conceptualized sadrith plants. Port Telvannis would be a beast on itself. A complete FCG in concept art, as well as extensive story discussions would be absolutely necessary. I would for all purposes seperate this from the heightmap altogether.
Stage 5: Cities should be left untouched for now. Until we have a solid plan for the Telvanni Questline, rushing this aspect, we risk making the same mistakes as before. Cities which don't really portray the Telvanni, or relate to the story/culture in a meaninfgul way. Port Telvannis itself I reckon will be a beast of its' own. The cities should be developed in tandem with one another, as to not risk feeling disjointed as they are now.
When would this exterior work get done (after Map 5 completed; after Almalexia released; as soon as possible)?
It isn't my call, but the general consensus was to wait until everything was finished, and then return to Telvannis. While I do not like the idea of this detracting too much from our current priorities (shoving Alma out the door, and other exterior work/models for Dres), I do not really sit well with the idea on sitting on this forever. It's an elephant in our room, and sooner or later, we will have to rectify it. Now how we do this is a completely different matter, but I agree that it must be brought up now rather than later.
Here is my proposition on the matter:
Since TR is and always has been done on a voluntary basis, I see absolutely no reason to hold people back from working on what interests them, so long as we have a solid ground plan in place, and that such work will not slow down the current tasks at hand. We should break the work up in stages and look at the entire peninsula as a whole on a case-by-case basis. Some parts will need less work than others.
Tasks such as converting the stretch of coast between Darnim and Helnim to AC for example. We make such changes without dire reprecussions on the existing landscape. Sload already established a good concept on extending VV regions onto the mainland, so as far as I'm concerned we can start now. I don't kid you, it would be alot of work, but if Modder X is interested to do such work instead of Map 5 claims, and if we have a good plan for it already laid down, I see no reason why we should hold them back from doing so, while other ext. modders continue work on current priorities. Sure that might be one or two less modders working on newer stuff, but that's eventually less work later. And I see no reason why the two can't be worked on simultaneously. The work will have to be done anyways. Our exterior department doesn't seem to be lacking at this point. But again Nemon should correct me if I am wrong on this.
Would it be a total redo (new Map5 style heightmap, start from scratch and everything) or just some retooling and re-detailing?
Again as Sload mentioned a few pages back, such decisions would/should be made on a case-by-case basis. Though I would *love* nothing more than to take a shovel and make a new heightmap for everything above Necrom, I keep in mind for issues of practicality. As per my point above, some parts of the existing landscape (not statics, just the landscape) can simply be retooled without the need of starting from scratch.
However, alot of this stuff was made when we still had our "claim first, ask questions later" mentality, so inevitably alot of parts will need to be redone. Our current Telvannis lacks any foresight in terms of conceptual planning, and it clearly shows in the disjointed nature of the landscape. So all of it is beyond detailing. We could dump a million statics per cell and it wouldn't change the fact that we're simply polishing a turd. Like in a painting, broad strokes always come before the tiny details. And AFAIK our current broad strokes are FUBAR in Telvannis.
Would exteriorer modders be able to deal with any problems introduced by deleting/relocating cities and buildings and their existing NPCs and quests?
This is somewhat trickier, but not at all impossible if we stick to Sload's PDF, because he's already come up with a good center for House Telvanni, and some basic concepts for towns. Retooling quests/dialogue based on that would be a start. Miscellaneous quests should theoretically be less problematic since they don't deal with the Telvanni as a whole for the most part. So far the only places that are being axed entirely are Tel Muthada, Tel Aranyon, and Bal Oyra. The quests would need to be asessed individually to see if they're more trouble than they're worth to keep. The Mithras questline will probably be a whole discussion on itself. Stuff like this would be better left to quest/NPC people, and I would hope for their input on this discussion. Rest assured though, since most of our Telvanni questline hasn't been made, it shouldn't be as big of a challenge as it might seem right now.
Dungeon Interiors will most likely be kept, as they are for the most part, easily repurposed. There may be plans on adding new telvanni-specific dungeons. These would be altered/made on an individual basis.
Towns will be dealt with seperately as per Stage V in my proposed game plan below. Most of what I said above deals strictly with wilderness exteriors.
The Game Plan
So here's how I propose we break things up in terms of workload. I'm strictly speaking exterior-wise. We should break things up based on regions.
Stage 1: Azurian Coast between Marog and Darnim. Since a concept has been firmly established, and the task is simply extending Vanilla AC into the mainland with minimal assets, we could (theoretically) start work on this at any time. I could see this happening early next year.
Stage 2: "Helnim Valley" and Shroomcoast between the old Map 1 Border and Tel Bosara. These two regions require new palettes and further conceptualization in terms of House Telvanni (story concept). Further discussion on these two regions would be necessary, but no new assets need to be made, so these could come next. I'd like to discuss potentially moving the center of muck farming to Helnim Valley, hence why this should wait until we've cleared that up. I'm hoping Sload or someone might chime in on this. Specifically the musk farming bit, and the particular environmental conditions that are required for musk farming.
Stage 3: M1 Heightmap for everything north of Helnim . This would be the hardest thing to do, as we only have some vague ideas on landscape. Stuff like the AC up to Firewatch, Sheogorad, Shroomcoast, and Grazelands will be easy, but the Boethians and Molagreadh Regions need more extensive conceptualization. These places might be done using vanilla ground textures, but will require some new statics, mostly flora. The level of conceptualization needed here would probably be on the level of Uld Vraech. The Boethian Mountains south of the new heightmap will be raised and matched manually using existing landscape to the new heightmap. I believe our exterior modders are skilled enough to do this without making visible borders.
Stage 4: Telvanni Isles. This would be the last because they are a completely unique bioregion, and will probably need alot of new meshes and textures for the conceptualized sadrith plants. Port Telvannis would be a beast on itself. A complete FCG in concept art, as well as extensive story discussions would be absolutely necessary. I would for all purposes seperate this from the heightmap altogether.
Stage 5: Cities should be left untouched for now. Until we have a solid plan for the Telvanni Questline, rushing this aspect, we risk making the same mistakes as before. Cities which don't really portray the Telvanni, or relate to the story/culture in a meaninfgul way. Port Telvannis itself I reckon will be a beast of its' own. The cities should be developed in tandem with one another, as to not risk feeling disjointed as they are now.
"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
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Yeti
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I wouldn't mind seeing work started on this after Map 5 is done too. We should have enough time until then to iron out any remaining disagreements on how to move forward, and plan finalized concepts for regions and cities. Then, by the time exterior work on the Telvanni lands is done we should be finished with Almalexia, which will free up resources needed for fixing and re-tooling NPCs, quests and dialogue in the Telvanni lands.
Basically, I don't want to see this redesign pushed continuously down the road. We've had the discussion on how to fix our older areas now, so we should start implementing changes while it's fresh on our minds, and the people involved the most in the discussion are still around. I also think fixing our old lands isn't something we want to leave on the back-burner until we're done with everything else. The lack of quality in our old area's will just keep nagging us in the back of our minds.
The Telvanni are also one of my favorite Houses, and I really want to see their land's fixed as soon as possible.
BC raises a lot of practical issues of re-tooling the maps that we need to think over. How are we going to actually go about fixing these areas. It's impossible to split them up into individual claims without completely removing quests, npcs and dialogue, many of which are of a decent quality and are worth saving. Do we want to trust the exterior changes to a group of modders taking turns updating the lands in the TR_Mainland file directly?
Personally, I'd suggest starting with the areas we don't need any new resources for - the coastal extensions of the vanilla regions.
Before work on re-tooling any settlements begins, each one should be reviewed by a team of exterior interior and quest modders to decide which interiors, npcs and quests are to be kept. The old dialogue can serve as a starting point for any needed/desirable rewriting by NPC modders once the exterior work is done.
EDIT: Where do you find the time to type out such long thoughtful posts, SwiftToak.
Basically, I don't want to see this redesign pushed continuously down the road. We've had the discussion on how to fix our older areas now, so we should start implementing changes while it's fresh on our minds, and the people involved the most in the discussion are still around. I also think fixing our old lands isn't something we want to leave on the back-burner until we're done with everything else. The lack of quality in our old area's will just keep nagging us in the back of our minds.
The Telvanni are also one of my favorite Houses, and I really want to see their land's fixed as soon as possible.
BC raises a lot of practical issues of re-tooling the maps that we need to think over. How are we going to actually go about fixing these areas. It's impossible to split them up into individual claims without completely removing quests, npcs and dialogue, many of which are of a decent quality and are worth saving. Do we want to trust the exterior changes to a group of modders taking turns updating the lands in the TR_Mainland file directly?
Personally, I'd suggest starting with the areas we don't need any new resources for - the coastal extensions of the vanilla regions.
Before work on re-tooling any settlements begins, each one should be reviewed by a team of exterior interior and quest modders to decide which interiors, npcs and quests are to be kept. The old dialogue can serve as a starting point for any needed/desirable rewriting by NPC modders once the exterior work is done.
EDIT: Where do you find the time to type out such long thoughtful posts, SwiftToak.
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Swiftoak
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That's cause I care
Arvisrend will know the most about the perils of splitting up Mainland, but inevitably we must at some point. The Azurian Coast between Darnim and Helnim should be the first thing we do. The terrain is at a suitable level so in terms of landscape editing, it will most likely be subtle changes. I see this work being done straight on mainland, it's not a huge piece of land, and can be done by one or two people. I'd leave Kemel-Ze/Marog peninsula though, as I have a unique idea in mind for that. The idea here in general is to make a cliffy version of the vanilla AC palette for the parts near Marog, and have it descend lower and be more akin to vanilla vanilla AC as it approaches the Inlet Bog. It would also descend northward towards Helnim/Firewatch. The peninsula is sort of special in that regard that it's cliffy.
The other issue we should tackle is musk farming. Since I'd like to resolve the concept behind "Helnim Fields" rather soon. I'd like Sload or another lore person to come in here and chime in. Because I'm not well versed in this, although I try to do some research so I don't completely sound like an ignorant ass. (Sload feel free to call me out on this if I'm wrong or being ignorant) Some key questions I'd like to resolve:
Is there a particular reason why Rathra is linked to the musk trade?
From what I can discern, it has something to do with competing with the Imperials, which plays into her antagonism with Aryon (who is somewhat closer to the Imperials) in the main story. Though IMHO this would make more geographical sense in the Helnim area, where the EEC has their offices.
How does musk-farming relate to the potential geographical concept of the Molagreadh?
I'd like to know. Do muskflies like corkbulb? Could they be linked to the corkbulb trees planned for this river valley? This brings me to my next question.
Is there a particular climate/geography that muskflies thrive in? Have we come up with such?
My proposal was that they thrive in muckpools. Muckpools that could be the staple of the "Helnim" valley.
Will there be any concequences to re-assigning the musk-trade aspects of Rathra's character to the Wizard residing in Narussa? I'd like to think not. Rathra still seems like an interesting enough character without the muck-farming stuff, though I can't really say. Sload or Adanorcil?
Should we move the center of musk-farming in Telvannis to the valley?
From my perspective, having the center of musk trade in this valley gives justification for the conflict between the EEC in Helnim and the wizard in Tel Narussa.
Arvisrend will know the most about the perils of splitting up Mainland, but inevitably we must at some point. The Azurian Coast between Darnim and Helnim should be the first thing we do. The terrain is at a suitable level so in terms of landscape editing, it will most likely be subtle changes. I see this work being done straight on mainland, it's not a huge piece of land, and can be done by one or two people. I'd leave Kemel-Ze/Marog peninsula though, as I have a unique idea in mind for that. The idea here in general is to make a cliffy version of the vanilla AC palette for the parts near Marog, and have it descend lower and be more akin to vanilla vanilla AC as it approaches the Inlet Bog. It would also descend northward towards Helnim/Firewatch. The peninsula is sort of special in that regard that it's cliffy.
The other issue we should tackle is musk farming. Since I'd like to resolve the concept behind "Helnim Fields" rather soon. I'd like Sload or another lore person to come in here and chime in. Because I'm not well versed in this, although I try to do some research so I don't completely sound like an ignorant ass. (Sload feel free to call me out on this if I'm wrong or being ignorant) Some key questions I'd like to resolve:
Is there a particular reason why Rathra is linked to the musk trade?
From what I can discern, it has something to do with competing with the Imperials, which plays into her antagonism with Aryon (who is somewhat closer to the Imperials) in the main story. Though IMHO this would make more geographical sense in the Helnim area, where the EEC has their offices.
How does musk-farming relate to the potential geographical concept of the Molagreadh?
I'd like to know. Do muskflies like corkbulb? Could they be linked to the corkbulb trees planned for this river valley? This brings me to my next question.
Is there a particular climate/geography that muskflies thrive in? Have we come up with such?
My proposal was that they thrive in muckpools. Muckpools that could be the staple of the "Helnim" valley.
Will there be any concequences to re-assigning the musk-trade aspects of Rathra's character to the Wizard residing in Narussa? I'd like to think not. Rathra still seems like an interesting enough character without the muck-farming stuff, though I can't really say. Sload or Adanorcil?
Should we move the center of musk-farming in Telvannis to the valley?
From my perspective, having the center of musk trade in this valley gives justification for the conflict between the EEC in Helnim and the wizard in Tel Narussa.
"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
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arvisrend
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At the moment I can only repeat what I've said earlier in the channel and on the forums, adding just a few minor points.
1) I have not read the newer half of the design discussion but I'm pretty sure that whatever Halfway comes up with in terms of landscape design will be loads better than what we currently have on maps 1-2. What little I've read I find myself agreeing with. So no, I don't like the idea of snow-covered mountains very much; yes, Imperials should be only around in the few places they need to trade; yay for more islands (I'm the kind of person who is disappointed by the lack of islands on map 5 even); yay for more unique (and less, in total) lighthouses.
2) I do not think we should start with major questbreaking changes in foreseeable time (read as "until Almalexia is done"). As various people here have pointed out, changing anything about towns and whole regions would induce temporarily breaking lots of things on Mainland, including dialogue, scripts and quests; this would put us on a release hiatus until we're done with the changes. At the very least, the changes should be split into little projects which can be done sequentially, with a functional Mainland file between any two projects, so that we can release inbetween.
Another issue is this: I'm highly opposed to leeching manpower from Almalexia and Heartland, and while the first months or so of Telvanni redesign will probably be able to run completely in parallel to whatever is done on maps 3-4, eventually the new Telvannis will end up in the NPCing stage, and if Almalexia is not NPCed by then, I fear this will really be the last nail on the coffin for Almalexia. And yes, I do think something should be done about Almalexia ASAP; I just don't have much of an idea what. Is there a spreadsheet listing what ints have been made, what have been designed, and what are in need of a raison-d-être? Can someone at least make a complete merge of the ints-that-are-to-stay into the M3A6 file so that our playtesters can run through the city and get a feeling for what has been and what needs to be done? Could we, if all else fails, crowdsource this by releasing such a merge as an alpha? Heck, we would even get some good quest designs by that.
There's also a psychological issue whose importance I'm not sure of. We already have a reputation for taking ages to release an update. Scamp has left us, pissed at (among other things) his fears of never seeing TR_5-1 released. I think it would be good to not create the impression of running around in circles, even if we're actually running up a quality spiral.
Finally: I have nothing against seeing half of the quests on maps 1-2 axed (although the Mithras questline should stay IMHO); but keep in mind that we need to replace them by something, or our update will be looking even more like a step backward. Now, reckon in the speed of our quest department...
1) I have not read the newer half of the design discussion but I'm pretty sure that whatever Halfway comes up with in terms of landscape design will be loads better than what we currently have on maps 1-2. What little I've read I find myself agreeing with. So no, I don't like the idea of snow-covered mountains very much; yes, Imperials should be only around in the few places they need to trade; yay for more islands (I'm the kind of person who is disappointed by the lack of islands on map 5 even); yay for more unique (and less, in total) lighthouses.
2) I do not think we should start with major questbreaking changes in foreseeable time (read as "until Almalexia is done"). As various people here have pointed out, changing anything about towns and whole regions would induce temporarily breaking lots of things on Mainland, including dialogue, scripts and quests; this would put us on a release hiatus until we're done with the changes. At the very least, the changes should be split into little projects which can be done sequentially, with a functional Mainland file between any two projects, so that we can release inbetween.
Another issue is this: I'm highly opposed to leeching manpower from Almalexia and Heartland, and while the first months or so of Telvanni redesign will probably be able to run completely in parallel to whatever is done on maps 3-4, eventually the new Telvannis will end up in the NPCing stage, and if Almalexia is not NPCed by then, I fear this will really be the last nail on the coffin for Almalexia. And yes, I do think something should be done about Almalexia ASAP; I just don't have much of an idea what. Is there a spreadsheet listing what ints have been made, what have been designed, and what are in need of a raison-d-être? Can someone at least make a complete merge of the ints-that-are-to-stay into the M3A6 file so that our playtesters can run through the city and get a feeling for what has been and what needs to be done? Could we, if all else fails, crowdsource this by releasing such a merge as an alpha? Heck, we would even get some good quest designs by that.
There's also a psychological issue whose importance I'm not sure of. We already have a reputation for taking ages to release an update. Scamp has left us, pissed at (among other things) his fears of never seeing TR_5-1 released. I think it would be good to not create the impression of running around in circles, even if we're actually running up a quality spiral.
Finally: I have nothing against seeing half of the quests on maps 1-2 axed (although the Mithras questline should stay IMHO); but keep in mind that we need to replace them by something, or our update will be looking even more like a step backward. Now, reckon in the speed of our quest department...
-
Bloodthirsty Crustacean
- Developer Emeritus
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- Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:30 pm
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There is indeed, it was made by Sload a few weeks ago.arvisrend wrote:Is there a spreadsheet listing what ints have been made, what have been designed, and what are in need of a raison-d-être?
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=21385
The possibility of merging all the Alma interiors that have so far been finished is certainly an appealing idea. It would also give another insight into the current state of the city, one that the spreadsheet cannot convey. If I am not mistaken, Nemon is only cutting out Kowloon and adding the floating market which might not have any interiors at all, so the merging could be done now if someone finds the time for it. (Most of the finished claims have also been reviewed, so that's not an issue either.)
Sorry for this digression.
Le vent nous portera
Tea is important! - Cathartis
Tea is important! - Cathartis
Okay, this is going to look stylish...
Landscape design requires a few simple points; Eligible ground textures, statics and flora. This needs to be figuratively carved in stone before anything is performed exterior wise. After that, there must be no ambiguous region borders, or methods of region bordering. Fixing inconsistency is extremely tiresome. I've left this discussion to swiftoak and sload amongst others, because I think you've hit the right spot regarding what region/settlement goes where so far.
Remaking old lands has so far resulted in scrapping and starting over. We should agree on what to keep and what to scrap before initiating this massive undertaking. Waiting and putting off decisions will probably just leave it too open for future disagreements and new discussions. A fresh start is usually what leaves us the best result.
Concepts and ideas. For all their worth and awesomeness, it is still nigh on impossible to put static A, B and C together to match whatever cool concept art is provided. The reasons for this are multiple; model quality, mw engine capabilities, time and qualifications. We are not a professional studio, and our current modeling department is limited to mwgek. I don't expect many models, mostly because of time and availability limitations. A Telvanni remake will require new models, especially if we want to have rugged cliff-y shores and a proper mountain range. The big cliff set is okay (although too plain and requiring additonal statics bleeding into it to not look boring), the little one okay and the snow variants we used for map 5 should be retextured to also work here (will require a proper retexture though) but preferrably with some static fixing since it is meant to have snow on top whereas rock textures would require rugg-yness to that part of the static.
Splitting lands from interiors, NPCs and quests are a big concern of mine. I'm afraid I have limited knowledge on this, but perhaps arvisrend knows more about the problems regarding remaking exteriors currently inhabited by NPCs and with quests here and there. Cleaning in Tesame, for instance. Deleting a cell will remove everything there, what does it do to quests and NPCs?
Precedent. Remaking Telvannis, okay but then what? Will we start thinking about remaking the indoril land, heartland or the velothi areas? I personally think these areas are just fine, and should be left at our current standard. We can't initiate another round of remaking, at least I want to someday be finished with this project, which leads me to my next point...
Combining a telvanni remake with further progress. Mwgek mentioned further up that the current map 6 models are not up to spec and should be scrapped. I disagree mostly, although I suggest fixing the "diamondy" shape of the current othreleth shrooms to something more organic and random, as well as the texture of it - from vertex shaded yellow to texture colored yellow. The next area of interest is the othreleth woods, southern thirr and southern velothi mountains (south of Kragenm a/oo r). Combining my earlier point of the fix+retexture of the snow cliffs with the fixing of the othreleth mushroom body and reviewing the liberumavis WIP mushroom flora pieces ([url=http://i.imgur.com/ecygoGrh.jpg]these)[/url] and including them in data will provide us the means for securing some progress on the project as well. We currently have a decent amount of exterior modders, and although the telvanni remake will require quite the manpower putting the rest on the backburner isn't a preferred solution.
Effectiveness. We need to increase it. Lands, interiors, NPCs and quests. We can't continue taking forever doing stuff. I'm currently in a full time job, big house and garden, wife and two kids. I still find a lot of time for this project and I hope others do the same
, even to a bigger extent than before. Also, I'm probably going to be a student from next year on, so I have to put some time into that from new years alongside everything else. From next August the plan is to be a full time student while the newly educated engineer wife makes the money for the Nemon family. But January-June will be a busy time for me, not sure on my effectiveness then.
The revised Almalexia has been uploaded quite some time ago, btw. Kowloon dropped, market added.
Screw you guys, are you never happy?
Landscape design requires a few simple points; Eligible ground textures, statics and flora. This needs to be figuratively carved in stone before anything is performed exterior wise. After that, there must be no ambiguous region borders, or methods of region bordering. Fixing inconsistency is extremely tiresome. I've left this discussion to swiftoak and sload amongst others, because I think you've hit the right spot regarding what region/settlement goes where so far.
Remaking old lands has so far resulted in scrapping and starting over. We should agree on what to keep and what to scrap before initiating this massive undertaking. Waiting and putting off decisions will probably just leave it too open for future disagreements and new discussions. A fresh start is usually what leaves us the best result.
Concepts and ideas. For all their worth and awesomeness, it is still nigh on impossible to put static A, B and C together to match whatever cool concept art is provided. The reasons for this are multiple; model quality, mw engine capabilities, time and qualifications. We are not a professional studio, and our current modeling department is limited to mwgek. I don't expect many models, mostly because of time and availability limitations. A Telvanni remake will require new models, especially if we want to have rugged cliff-y shores and a proper mountain range. The big cliff set is okay (although too plain and requiring additonal statics bleeding into it to not look boring), the little one okay and the snow variants we used for map 5 should be retextured to also work here (will require a proper retexture though) but preferrably with some static fixing since it is meant to have snow on top whereas rock textures would require rugg-yness to that part of the static.
Splitting lands from interiors, NPCs and quests are a big concern of mine. I'm afraid I have limited knowledge on this, but perhaps arvisrend knows more about the problems regarding remaking exteriors currently inhabited by NPCs and with quests here and there. Cleaning in Tesame, for instance. Deleting a cell will remove everything there, what does it do to quests and NPCs?
Precedent. Remaking Telvannis, okay but then what? Will we start thinking about remaking the indoril land, heartland or the velothi areas? I personally think these areas are just fine, and should be left at our current standard. We can't initiate another round of remaking, at least I want to someday be finished with this project, which leads me to my next point...
Combining a telvanni remake with further progress. Mwgek mentioned further up that the current map 6 models are not up to spec and should be scrapped. I disagree mostly, although I suggest fixing the "diamondy" shape of the current othreleth shrooms to something more organic and random, as well as the texture of it - from vertex shaded yellow to texture colored yellow. The next area of interest is the othreleth woods, southern thirr and southern velothi mountains (south of Kragenm a/oo r). Combining my earlier point of the fix+retexture of the snow cliffs with the fixing of the othreleth mushroom body and reviewing the liberumavis WIP mushroom flora pieces ([url=http://i.imgur.com/ecygoGrh.jpg]these)[/url] and including them in data will provide us the means for securing some progress on the project as well. We currently have a decent amount of exterior modders, and although the telvanni remake will require quite the manpower putting the rest on the backburner isn't a preferred solution.
Effectiveness. We need to increase it. Lands, interiors, NPCs and quests. We can't continue taking forever doing stuff. I'm currently in a full time job, big house and garden, wife and two kids. I still find a lot of time for this project and I hope others do the same
, even to a bigger extent than before. Also, I'm probably going to be a student from next year on, so I have to put some time into that from new years alongside everything else. From next August the plan is to be a full time student while the newly educated engineer wife makes the money for the Nemon family. But January-June will be a busy time for me, not sure on my effectiveness then.The revised Almalexia has been uploaded quite some time ago, btw. Kowloon dropped, market added.
Screw you guys, are you never happy?
SIGILLVM COMMVNITATIS DE CIVITATE BERGENSI
I am going through map 1 quests right now and I think similar overhaul will certainly be required. Many of the old quests are also of subpar quality to current standards. So even if we will have to address this, it will also be an improvement, rather than simply a necessary consequence of changing the landscape.
THEO
Here are the effects:Nemon wrote:Splitting lands from interiors, NPCs and quests are a big concern of mine. I'm afraid I have limited knowledge on this, but perhaps arvisrend knows more about the problems regarding remaking exteriors currently inhabited by NPCs and with quests here and there. Cleaning in Tesame, for instance. Deleting a cell will remove everything there, what does it do to quests and NPCs?
- Dialogue: if the cell was used as a dialogue filter, then removing the cell removes the filter. Consequently, NPCs in all cells will say that bit of dialogue.
- Scripts: if the cell is referenced in a script, it will error out at runtime.
- Travel markers: if there is a travel marker in the cell, the associated NPC will lose it as a destination.
- Door markers: any door leading to the cell become unlinked.
NPCs themselves aren't directly affected, they just get their refcount reduced. It's mostly dialogue that you have to watch out for. Not only are there mechanical issues with them (unfiltered responses), but also there's the point where the rest of the dialogue becomes inconsistent with the world. Map books, too.
Perhaps someone make lists of topics, journal entries and scripts that might get affected by changing the exterior (the contenct becomes inaccurate, the filtering conditions become ineffective) prior to any such changes.
Not that it has to be done right now, but having it would be handy at the moment when the concept stage is over and first changes to landscapes begin to be applied.
Just for laughs: Check what most map 1 NPCs have to say about "Boethian Mountains" right now. When I NPCed map1 wilderness I included there an Orc Scholar who mocks this reply. This will only illuminate necessity of this overhaul.
Not that it has to be done right now, but having it would be handy at the moment when the concept stage is over and first changes to landscapes begin to be applied.
Just for laughs: Check what most map 1 NPCs have to say about "Boethian Mountains" right now. When I NPCed map1 wilderness I included there an Orc Scholar who mocks this reply. This will only illuminate necessity of this overhaul.
THEO
A WIP picture of the othreleth shroom made by Ada some time ago and the second one showing some possible textures from a 5 minute draft:Mwgek wrote:After map 5 I say. Exteriors are way ahead anyway and the map 6+ resources (models&textures) are severly lacking quality and need to be axed and redone.Nemon wrote:Combining a telvanni remake with further progress. Mwgek mentioned further up that the current map 6 models are not up to spec and should be scrapped. I disagree mostly, although I suggest fixing the "diamondy" shape of the current othreleth shrooms to something more organic and random, as well as the texture of it - from vertex shaded yellow to texture colored yellow. The next area of interest is the othreleth woods, southern thirr and southern velothi mountains (south of Kragenm a/oo r). Combining my earlier point of the fix+retexture of the snow cliffs with the fixing of the othreleth mushroom body and reviewing the liberumavis WIP mushroom flora pieces (these) and including them in data will provide us the means for securing some progress on the project as well. We currently have a decent amount of exterior modders, and although the telvanni remake will require quite the manpower putting the rest on the backburner isn't a preferred solution.
[url=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/m2cs.png/][img]http://imageshack.us/a/img94/1647/m2cs.th.png[/img][/url][url=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/4q55.png/][img]http://imageshack.us/a/img202/7400/4q55.th.png[/img][/url]
Ofcourse the textures should be more vibrant and colourful and the model is pretty basic, but it's a WIP. If someone with the power wants to set up an object claim and concepts of the Shrooms we want I'm more then happy to making a consistent set.
I will not however fix stuff that is really really bad and will be used after this point nonetheless. I find it really awkward that we just go ahead like a locomotive for the sake of progress only and not look at the resources we have dating from the ages of our Telvannis release.
I will however try to fix stuff that is already placed in older cells, like my recent Indoril banner fix. Because changing the model will cause errors everywhere and that will lead to a lot of extra work. Although I would love to make new trees instead of the ugly one
.That's why I think the resources of the new areas should be quality checked before usage and that the exterior department can invest some time in map 1 and 2.
--Mwgek--
I think that it's important that a distinction is made between landscape improvement and major changes of the settlements that necessitate deleting dialogue and quests. So:
1) The dialogue/quests in map1 is much newer than the landscaping and is of concurrently higher (though not perfect) quality).
2) The landscaping dept is not the bottleneck for releases, quests/NPCs are. So redoing just the landscape (perhaps with some quest/dialogue fixing) would not slow down other releases, but redoing the quests/dialogue to a major extent would take many workers away from Almalexia NPCing, which is a mammoth task and the main obstacle to the Alma release.
3) With care, foresight and appropriate workflow, landscape can be changed without breaking quests. The proper use of TESAME and such in this context is important. What Gez said regarding dialogue losing filters when the cell appropriately named is gone is true, but it's not as big a problem as it might initially seem. Firstly the loss of cell-based filters only occurs if you load an esp without loading the esps that introduce the appropriate cell names alongside it. So: if espX includes a cell named "Port Telvannis", espY can have dialogue filtered to "Port Telvannis" without issue. EspX does not need to have a dependency on espY, but if you load espx without espY, all those cell="Port Telvannis" conditions get resolved to being blank. Secondly, another cell can be named "port Telvannis" (including an interior) and satisfy this condition, leaving the dialogue still filtered. Most of the location-filtered dialogue in map1 is filtered for the settlement names alone; making an appropriate set of dummy int cells is relatively easy.
So, I would suggest that revisiting map1 commence with exterior work alone, also including removal of innapropriate material (like Bal Oyra). Assuming that that exterior work is the most extreme and difficult option, working from a new heightmap, here is a suggested workflow:
1) Make a heightmap for the whole area.
2) Divide this into exterior claims. For each claim, give the same name to each cell as are in the mainland.esm as it is. For example, name exterior cell 18,15 as "Firewatch".
3) For insurance, create the set of dummy cells already described, adding them into mainland.esm.
4) Cut just the cell and landscape data for the cells to be remade out of mainland.esm. Leave everything else present.
5) Only merge the new landscape into the mainland.esm file when all of it is made (thus avoiding cell name loss screwing up the dialogue).
6) Depending on the situation, some interior changes may be necessary.
7) Update dialogue in relation to landscape changes. Instead of "turn left at the ugly lump" -> "turn left at the beautiful mountain".
8) Interior improvement and dialogue improvement as later stages.
______________________________________________________
However, I see no good reason to move musk farming down to Helnim. In fact, if it's to be moved the opposite would be far better. Musk farming is a very Telvanni activity and it should be in the heartland of Telvanni lands. Helnim is a handy place for the Imperials, but the Imperials don't dictate Telvanni activity.
Thematically speaking, musk farming on the border of Telvanni lands will not help to create the impression that this is a closely-guarded Telvanni secret.
Quest-wise, it will decrease the potential for muck-related quests.
It will require changing much dialogue and background. Which is fine if it would be replaced by something better, but this would be the opposite.
Instead, replace Bal Oyra with a musk farm nestled among some cliffs. Replace Sadas Plantation with a musk farm among the sadrith landscape.
1) The dialogue/quests in map1 is much newer than the landscaping and is of concurrently higher (though not perfect) quality).
2) The landscaping dept is not the bottleneck for releases, quests/NPCs are. So redoing just the landscape (perhaps with some quest/dialogue fixing) would not slow down other releases, but redoing the quests/dialogue to a major extent would take many workers away from Almalexia NPCing, which is a mammoth task and the main obstacle to the Alma release.
3) With care, foresight and appropriate workflow, landscape can be changed without breaking quests. The proper use of TESAME and such in this context is important. What Gez said regarding dialogue losing filters when the cell appropriately named is gone is true, but it's not as big a problem as it might initially seem. Firstly the loss of cell-based filters only occurs if you load an esp without loading the esps that introduce the appropriate cell names alongside it. So: if espX includes a cell named "Port Telvannis", espY can have dialogue filtered to "Port Telvannis" without issue. EspX does not need to have a dependency on espY, but if you load espx without espY, all those cell="Port Telvannis" conditions get resolved to being blank. Secondly, another cell can be named "port Telvannis" (including an interior) and satisfy this condition, leaving the dialogue still filtered. Most of the location-filtered dialogue in map1 is filtered for the settlement names alone; making an appropriate set of dummy int cells is relatively easy.
So, I would suggest that revisiting map1 commence with exterior work alone, also including removal of innapropriate material (like Bal Oyra). Assuming that that exterior work is the most extreme and difficult option, working from a new heightmap, here is a suggested workflow:
1) Make a heightmap for the whole area.
2) Divide this into exterior claims. For each claim, give the same name to each cell as are in the mainland.esm as it is. For example, name exterior cell 18,15 as "Firewatch".
3) For insurance, create the set of dummy cells already described, adding them into mainland.esm.
4) Cut just the cell and landscape data for the cells to be remade out of mainland.esm. Leave everything else present.
5) Only merge the new landscape into the mainland.esm file when all of it is made (thus avoiding cell name loss screwing up the dialogue).
6) Depending on the situation, some interior changes may be necessary.
7) Update dialogue in relation to landscape changes. Instead of "turn left at the ugly lump" -> "turn left at the beautiful mountain".
8) Interior improvement and dialogue improvement as later stages.
______________________________________________________
However, I see no good reason to move musk farming down to Helnim. In fact, if it's to be moved the opposite would be far better. Musk farming is a very Telvanni activity and it should be in the heartland of Telvanni lands. Helnim is a handy place for the Imperials, but the Imperials don't dictate Telvanni activity.
Thematically speaking, musk farming on the border of Telvanni lands will not help to create the impression that this is a closely-guarded Telvanni secret.
Quest-wise, it will decrease the potential for muck-related quests.
It will require changing much dialogue and background. Which is fine if it would be replaced by something better, but this would be the opposite.
Instead, replace Bal Oyra with a musk farm nestled among some cliffs. Replace Sadas Plantation with a musk farm among the sadrith landscape.
"It’s all been such a mistake. We were once little shrew-like animals. That would be so much better."
-Ophelia Benson
-Ophelia Benson
The current othreleth set did undergo the standard concept stage, making/criticism/fixing, review and inclusion in tr data: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22857&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40Mwgek wrote: A WIP picture of the othreleth shroom made by Ada some time ago and the second one showing some possible textures from a 5 minute draft:
[url=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/m2cs.png/][img]http://imageshack.us/a/img94/1647/m2cs.th.png[/img][/url][url=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/4q55.png/][img]http://imageshack.us/a/img202/7400/4q55.th.png[/img][/url]
Ofcourse the textures should be more vibrant and colourful and the model is pretty basic, but it's a WIP. If someone with the power wants to set up an object claim and concepts of the Shrooms we want I'm more then happy to making a consistent set.
I will not however fix stuff that is really really bad and will be used after this point nonetheless. I find it really awkward that we just go ahead like a locomotive for the sake of progress only and not look at the resources we have dating from the ages of our Telvannis release.
I will however try to fix stuff that is already placed in older cells, like my recent Indoril banner fix. Because changing the model will cause errors everywhere and that will lead to a lot of extra work. Although I would love to make new trees instead of the ugly one
That's why I think the resources of the new areas should be quality checked before usage and that the exterior department can invest some time in map 1 and 2.
Regarding progress, we can and should have both tamriel rebuilt and tamriel rebuilt².
SIGILLVM COMMVNITATIS DE CIVITATE BERGENSI
As much as I can understand your concerns about re-NPCing and re-questing map 1 drawing precious manpower from recent releases, Lud, I must strongly oppose your idea that all the changes to the landscape should be done with the "minimum mutilation of existing quests" principle in mind.
The changes of the terrain are, beside replacing the old crappy landscape, also intended to help to characterize Telvanni in a better and more interesting way and quests are a crucial part of this task.
The name of this thread is "House Telvanni Faction Quest Design" after all.
Exterior modders should do their best and then it is for questers to think, which quests can be salvaged and repurposed, which have to be scrapped and which new ones should be made to get the maximum value from the new setup.
Many of the current quests (couple of mine included) simply do not go well with the way we want Telvanni portrayed.
And many may work as a concept, but come out as somewhere between boring and plain irritating to play. I wonder if anyone ever bothered to playtest them beside me.
Did anybody here ever manage to complete "Intrigue in Port Telvannis" or the whole Firewatch Thieves Guild without resorting to using the console? I am just wondering...
If we are going to redo this, let the quality be our first and foremost (if not only) concern.
The changes of the terrain are, beside replacing the old crappy landscape, also intended to help to characterize Telvanni in a better and more interesting way and quests are a crucial part of this task.
The name of this thread is "House Telvanni Faction Quest Design" after all.
Exterior modders should do their best and then it is for questers to think, which quests can be salvaged and repurposed, which have to be scrapped and which new ones should be made to get the maximum value from the new setup.
Many of the current quests (couple of mine included) simply do not go well with the way we want Telvanni portrayed.
And many may work as a concept, but come out as somewhere between boring and plain irritating to play. I wonder if anyone ever bothered to playtest them beside me.
Did anybody here ever manage to complete "Intrigue in Port Telvannis" or the whole Firewatch Thieves Guild without resorting to using the console? I am just wondering...
If we are going to redo this, let the quality be our first and foremost (if not only) concern.
THEO
It did, for one review. The second try is just approved and not reviewed. With the first review by Ada, he didn't look at the files obviously, because otherwise he would have mentioned the black and white texture.Nemon wrote:The current othreleth set did undergo the standard concept stage, making/criticism/fixing, review and inclusion in tr data: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22857&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40Mwgek wrote: A WIP picture of the othreleth shroom made by Ada some time ago and the second one showing some possible textures from a 5 minute draft:
[url=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/m2cs.png/][img]http://imageshack.us/a/img94/1647/m2cs.th.png[/img][/url][url=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/4q55.png/][img]http://imageshack.us/a/img202/7400/4q55.th.png[/img][/url]
Ofcourse the textures should be more vibrant and colourful and the model is pretty basic, but it's a WIP. If someone with the power wants to set up an object claim and concepts of the Shrooms we want I'm more then happy to making a consistent set.
I will not however fix stuff that is really really bad and will be used after this point nonetheless. I find it really awkward that we just go ahead like a locomotive for the sake of progress only and not look at the resources we have dating from the ages of our Telvannis release.
I will however try to fix stuff that is already placed in older cells, like my recent Indoril banner fix. Because changing the model will cause errors everywhere and that will lead to a lot of extra work. Although I would love to make new trees instead of the ugly one
That's why I think the resources of the new areas should be quality checked before usage and that the exterior department can invest some time in map 1 and 2.
Regarding progress, we can and should have both tamriel rebuilt and tamriel rebuilt².
--Mwgek--
I think you misunderstand me somewhat. What I said is that changes to the landscape should be done first and without breaking the dialogue and quests. When this is done, the quests can then be examined and altered, building upon the existing framework.Theo wrote:As much as I can understand your concerns about re-NPCing and re-questing map 1 drawing precious manpower from recent releases, Lud, I must strongly oppose your idea that all the changes to the landscape should be done with the "minimum mutilation of existing quests" principle in mind.
On the other hand, if the dialogue is broken, then getting the dialogue functioning and organised again would be an immense task. Removing a quest because it's not very good by selectively deleting the relevant data is easy and doesn't break other things. Damaging dialogue filtering will create huge amounts of work in order to fix a lot of previously perfectly good work (I'm thinking of background dialogue here).
Think of it like fixing a wall (the landscape) in a house. By erecting scaffolding, you can take out that wall and leave the roof intact. By going at it with a sledgehammer, you need to build a whole new house.
Doing things as I outlined has the additional advantage that the map would stay in a functioning state.
"It’s all been such a mistake. We were once little shrew-like animals. That would be so much better."
-Ophelia Benson
-Ophelia Benson
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Swiftoak
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I just want to point out for your benefit that this is a movie quote from Down Periscope. It originated from Harley Davidson motorbikes, where were referred to as hogs, and the kickstand which would be kicked up in order to start a journey. Now it's used in reference to starting a voyage or sending something on its way.Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:At some point, we have to put our fists on the table and say "Let's Kick This Pig" as Tyrion once said in my Necrom thread.
Last edited by Swiftoak on Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
-Hippocrates
-Hippocrates
goddamnit you all wrote so fucking much
This thread has been a mess over the past week or whatever. There are all these different lines of conversation weaving around each other without any central or underlying conceptual conversation going on. The changes being discussed seem sudden, arbitrary, and unrooted in cause or in currently extant material. I cannot make enough sense of this thread to follow it or respond. Things are dealt with at once in their specificity (what Kemelze should look like) and then in their massive generalities (what the heightmap should be like), without any coherent or intelligible train of thought or categorization of ideas. Frankly, all of these posts seem like a lot of sound and fury to me.
This is not productive. Outlining the most general changes needed to Map 1 & 2 is valuable, but that's not being done here. We've moved from the vaguest generalizations (what regions should exist, what style the settlement should be) to specific road maps and region lines without first checking current material should be salvaged or what generalities of the current material should be maintained. Please stop this.
If anyone wants to help TR, Almalexia needs interiors badly.
This thread has been a mess over the past week or whatever. There are all these different lines of conversation weaving around each other without any central or underlying conceptual conversation going on. The changes being discussed seem sudden, arbitrary, and unrooted in cause or in currently extant material. I cannot make enough sense of this thread to follow it or respond. Things are dealt with at once in their specificity (what Kemelze should look like) and then in their massive generalities (what the heightmap should be like), without any coherent or intelligible train of thought or categorization of ideas. Frankly, all of these posts seem like a lot of sound and fury to me.
This is not productive. Outlining the most general changes needed to Map 1 & 2 is valuable, but that's not being done here. We've moved from the vaguest generalizations (what regions should exist, what style the settlement should be) to specific road maps and region lines without first checking current material should be salvaged or what generalities of the current material should be maintained. Please stop this.
If anyone wants to help TR, Almalexia needs interiors badly.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
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arvisrend
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Just a comment on Lud's post:
I'm all for killing Bal Oyra or reducing it to a couple of shacks, but that will require nontrivial work on scripts and dialogue.
EDIT2: Another argument for not starting the Map1 reimplementation too soon is that some Map1 quests aren't bad per se, they're just not Telvanni enough. With Maps 3-4 done we'll have much more space to move them to (which requires work but much less so than making them anew).
EDIT: I just got ninjad by Sload. To repeat what is most important:
Only if you really mean landscape as opposed to towns. But I thought you wanted to start with towns, given that they're the crappiest part of TR1?Lud wrote:3) With care, foresight and appropriate workflow, landscape can be changed without breaking quests.
I'm all for killing Bal Oyra or reducing it to a couple of shacks, but that will require nontrivial work on scripts and dialogue.
EDIT2: Another argument for not starting the Map1 reimplementation too soon is that some Map1 quests aren't bad per se, they're just not Telvanni enough. With Maps 3-4 done we'll have much more space to move them to (which requires work but much less so than making them anew).
EDIT: I just got ninjad by Sload. To repeat what is most important:
Sload wrote: If anyone wants to help TR, Almalexia needs interiors badly.
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Yeti
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No, because all our newer lands are as close to perfect as we're ever likely going to get them. Any remaking of Indoril, Heartland or Velothi areas at this point would be perfectionist to the point of insanity. At some point a line needs to be drawn. I personally would draw it at anything south of the Helnim Fields.Nemon wrote:Remaking Telvannis, okay but then what? Will we start thinking about remaking the indoril land, heartland or the velothi areas?
This thread is starting to make my brain hurt. Didn't we already outline a pretty good idea of the general changes we want to make more than a page ago?
-Head of NPCs: [url=http://www.shotn.com/forums/]Skyrim: Home of the Nords[/url]
Pretty much. I have no further thoughts to add and I'm very happy to see Swifty plan an increased activity here later.Yeti wrote: This thread is starting to make my brain hurt. Didn't we already outline a pretty good idea of the general changes we want to make more than a page ago?
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Swiftoak
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It's cause I'm secretly plotting to usurp you as HoE when you eventaully realize RL is finally getting to you bwahahahahaha *evilgrin*I'm very happy to see Swifty plan an increased activity here later.
Not really though. All jokes aside, I'm with Yeti. I did, or at least I tried to, take alot of consideration to a general concept, although I agree that I'm partially guilty of making this conversation zigzag (I have a horrible tendency to ramble, IRL too, and all that seems to accomplish is to throw people off, so I apologize if I did).
Alot of the map wasn't arbitrary at all. In fact most of it is based entirely of Sload's ideas. His region borders, his tiered settlements, alongside some of my own ideas. Some of the roads still need to be adjusted. If it were me, I'd take it further and make none of the Telvanni sadriths accessible by road, as most of their power lies close to the sea, so maritime travel should be the main method of trade in this region.
Some stuff like that, muckfarming, and refining the general concept still needs to be fleshed out first (so yes I agree Sload), which is exactly why I think this conversation absolutely needs to keep happening until we reach some sort of consensus. We've let things like this sit for months on end at times, which concerns me. Yes Alma is a priority, we all know that, but stuff like this should still be kept on the forefront rather than be allowed to sink. We should get our concept artists working on establishing a mood for some of the newer regions.
I'm not saying it's boots-on-the-ground-drop-everything-we-do, but a few ideas won't put the brakes on Alma interiorizing. I won't be CSing for a few months at the least, so this is the least I can do, beacuse I like most people want to see Telvannis live up to its' full potential. This is the only reason I'm sounding alot more pushy as of late.
Now Sload has provided a very decent generalization (again feel free to correct me on this Sload) as to the character of the Telvanni faction and region, and I have attempted to visually interpret those characteristics in a clear, and concise exterior plan. I frankly don't care if you throw it all out in favour of something else, but it's there. And sadly, not much has been said of what I have put forth. We've been discussing this for years, and I'd like a solid plan forward in the coming months. Concepts, everything. Alma work should progress unimpeded in the meantime. We sure as hell shouldn't wait until Almalexia is set and done for to come to a bloody consensus on this. If something on my map doesn't exactly contribute to the idea of Telvanni, then point it out and suggest how it can be improved/modified so that it does. And if anything on my map is arbitrary, then scrap it, and come up with something else that is more appropriate. Decide what to keep and what not to keep. Decide if our general concept is fleshed out enough to warrant a visual map, and if not, make it good enough so that it does. And outline the appropriate changes based on that concept. Just don't sit on this for another year or two.
I apologize if I come off as confrontative/angry. I'm not. I'm simply tired of this bicycle-like discussion, like all of you. I'm sorry if what I said hasn't been productive. So I'll stop for now. I do not wish to throw people off any more, or frustrate Sload any further, as I understand (or at least I'm doing my best to try and understand) his position on this conversation.
"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
-Hippocrates
-Hippocrates
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Lord_Gallant
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As the guy responsible for most of the exterior architecture for Port Telvannis, I'd like to chime in here, if I may.
When Port Telvannis as you see it now was built, most Telvanni towns actually looked a lot like Sadrith Mora in vanilla Morrowind. That is to say, towns consisted of isolated mushroom pods attached to the ground, and at that time, Nazz's version of Port Telvannis was similar. I offered to improve upon the city's design, and Nazz was impressed enough by the new architecture that he made it permanent. This was quite a while ago, back before I was even on the core team, and it resulted in what is the current exterior for the city.
Several years later, when very large cities such as Prometheus' Narsis were being built, I proposed to expand upon the city to essentially double the interior cell count as well as condense/heighten the city with another canopy layer. The idea was to make it more comparable to existing "capital" cities. The expansion concept was not popular at the time, due to the fact that it would add more work for the interior team, so I ended up abandoning the project.
I will be the first to admit, Port Telvannis could use a little *more*. Despite the great amount of positive feedback the city has received in the last decade, it would be nice to see the city allowed to achieve its full potential, as I had intended all those years ago.
However, I am still proud of the work I have done, even if I think more could be done, and so I will respectfully request that at least a substantial portion of the exterior canopy be preserved in whatever improvements are in store for it. I still want to be able to walk this city knowing that I played a significant part in its design. I think that a lot can be achieved with the city without having to delete most of what was already done, though I understand the realities of a redesign. I simply hope that you will reconsider a "select all, delete" approach to Port Telvannis.
Thank you for understanding,
-LG
When Port Telvannis as you see it now was built, most Telvanni towns actually looked a lot like Sadrith Mora in vanilla Morrowind. That is to say, towns consisted of isolated mushroom pods attached to the ground, and at that time, Nazz's version of Port Telvannis was similar. I offered to improve upon the city's design, and Nazz was impressed enough by the new architecture that he made it permanent. This was quite a while ago, back before I was even on the core team, and it resulted in what is the current exterior for the city.
Several years later, when very large cities such as Prometheus' Narsis were being built, I proposed to expand upon the city to essentially double the interior cell count as well as condense/heighten the city with another canopy layer. The idea was to make it more comparable to existing "capital" cities. The expansion concept was not popular at the time, due to the fact that it would add more work for the interior team, so I ended up abandoning the project.
I will be the first to admit, Port Telvannis could use a little *more*. Despite the great amount of positive feedback the city has received in the last decade, it would be nice to see the city allowed to achieve its full potential, as I had intended all those years ago.
However, I am still proud of the work I have done, even if I think more could be done, and so I will respectfully request that at least a substantial portion of the exterior canopy be preserved in whatever improvements are in store for it. I still want to be able to walk this city knowing that I played a significant part in its design. I think that a lot can be achieved with the city without having to delete most of what was already done, though I understand the realities of a redesign. I simply hope that you will reconsider a "select all, delete" approach to Port Telvannis.
Thank you for understanding,
-LG
Trudging through the relentless Skyrim snowstorms, the lone Paladin looks on in sorrow as the land of Tamriel evolves without him; his mind occupied with other matters.