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immortal_pigs
Developer
15 May 2008

Location: Utrecht

Posting this so there's something tangible to refer to during the section meetings. As before, this is just a proposal and not set in stone(falls).

//

These are a couple of topics to address regarding the city.

Religion
A Temple features rather prominently and centrally in the city. This implies Andothren has a religious background. Andothren is also quite close to Vivec and reasonably proximal to Almalexia. I like to think that Andothren has strong religious roots and that many of the Dunmeri inhabitants, including the Hlaalu are followers of the Tribunal. However, Hlaalu hold different attitudes towards the Temple than the Indoril or the Redoran. How exactly does religion feature in the day to day life of a Hlaalu?

Old Ebonheart vs. Andothren
Looking at the two cities you can see that both are port cities. Seafaring trade must be important for both and they would likely be rivals. The ports of Old Ebonheart look a lot more expansive and professional, Andothren's port looks rather... shady. What I would like to propose is that the Hlaalu and The Empire have struck a deal regarding trade regulations along the Inner Sea. Andothren has been given a monopoly at trading [resource x]. It's exportation of Khajiiti slaves is also condoned. In return, Old Ebonheart has retained international exportation rights for other resources, such as ebony. The two ports are therefore NOT rivals, because the Hlaalu were able to strike a deal that benefitted them, while still seeming beneficial to the Imperials.

Camonna Tong
Looking at the overall shadiness of the city, I get the sense that Andothren would be a perfect hub for the Camonna Tong. I would almost go as far as to say it's the Tong's logistical centerpiece. The Tong will have a presence in the city. A lot of smuggling will be going on in the cities' docks, being kept well hidden from the Imperials. The Hlaalu leadership of the city will also have ties to the Tong. However, the presence is not so explicit as to say they "control the city". They keep to their own enterprise, which is mostly smuggling, and leave the rest of the city to its own business. "What exactly does the Tong smuggle, and to what extent?", would be an interesting question to answer. I would like to see a Camonna Tong hub in the city here:

The Dwemer Ruin
There are a lot of ways to go with this. I believe there are plans to create a Dwemer lighthouse. It also seems implied that the location of Andothren used to be a Dwemer settlement. Perhaps during the war, (what would later be Hlaalu) forces defeated the Dwemer here. But what's going on in the ruin present day? An idea was to have Camonna Tong hidden in the ruin but that seems a bit obvious. I don't think it should be just a standard Dwemer ruin with a couple spiders either. People have been living in the are too long for the ruin to still be dangerous. There is a Mages Guild in Andothren, perhaps they are interested in spelunking the ruin? Anyone have any ideas about what to do with the ruin?

Hlaalu Politics
In the big picture, Andothren is just one of the many large Hlaalu cities. You have Kragenmoor and Narsis and Balmora and others (would be nice to have an overview of Hlaalu cities). Andothren has a say, sure, but it's not really a center of Hlaalu political power. The Hlaalu here are mostly busy with their trading and money making. Because of the Tong influences, the political position of the Hlaalu in Andothren is slanted towards that camp. But it's not like the Camonna Tong secretly hold the reigns. It's more like you have "upright" Hlaalu who are in the Council House and deal legally, and you have more shady Hlaalu who deal with the Tong. But in the end, their all Hlaalu. The people that matter in Andothren will be in on the conspiracy.

Foreign Quarter
Despite the presence of the Tong, there is still a significant foreign population in the city. They tend to live in "downtown", east of the Velothi Temple. The Tong may occasionally cause some troubles, but the foreigners still maintain a friendly disposition towards the Hlaalu. Somehow, the Hlaalu are able to pull this off and disassociate from the less respectable Camonna Tong dealings. On the other hand, the Tong is less militant in Andothren: this is a city where they make money, so they act a bit more professional.
Post Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:52 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

In my Andothren MG designs, the guild steward is mostly interested in Daedra, but nothing speaks against a Dwemer ruin sidetrack. That said, I fear the landscape doesn't give much freedom for the ruin to expand (unless you make it go underwater). Probably the really kickass Dwemer ruins shouldn't be placed right in noobland either.
Post Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:22 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

The Mages Guild holding a large-scale investigation of the Dwemer ruin would be a little too expected, imo. Better to save the major "outlanders interested in learning about the Dwemer" quest hooks for Kemel-ze and the Imperial Archaeological Society.

Then again, having one or two Guild members checking out the ruin could be fun. The locals think they're wasting their time spelunking in a largely looted ruin, and the head of the Guild in Andothren also holds a dim view of their interest, believing that local Daedric ruins hold far more scholarly value. Perhaps at one point in the local questline, the player will be sent to investigate what they're up to after nothing is heard from them for a spell.

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MoonAndStar
Developer
25 Oct 2012

Location: Spain

How about this: the Mages Guild have been wanting for years to get the rights to excavate the ruin, but the local Hlaalu beaurocracy keeps putting obstacles in their way, with rather lame excuses. Turns out the ruin is actually a Commona Tong hideout or warehouse or somehthing, so they don't want anyone getting too close. It would be up to the player to investigate it.
Post Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:31 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
immortal_pigs
Developer
15 May 2008

Location: Utrecht

This google drive folder contains documents pertaining to the Andothren Section. It should be accessible and editable to anyone with the link.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B62eYOCQ4XKjNEZ0bzlQZnh4cXM&usp=sharing
Post Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:04 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I'm not sure if some of these topics will be sectioned off in their own threads, but here are my thoughts on the topics above, and a few in the linked Andothren Master Plan, in all their length.

Travel

For Andothren travel locations, how about Seyda Neen or Vivec instead of Ebonheart? I'm sure Ebonheart would receive East Empire Company and Imperial Navy ships from across the Inner Sea, but as for passengers, I'm wondering whether they wouldn't be redirected to the Census and Excise office in Seyda Neen. Unless we're planning on cutting all references of the quarantine from vanilla dialogue, at least the Imperials should probably observe it in some way.

Andothren could be the destination of the fabled "gondola to the mainland" the player mentions to the C&E officer in Vivec, (the only other likely candidate would be the Hlaalu shack village to the east), or Seyda Neen could become a focal point of Inner Sea travel, connecting (for example) to Teyn, Andothren, Old Ebonheart and maybe Hla Ruhn.

As for the remaining two destinations from Andothren, Teyn in the west and the shack village in the east (3, -17) would be the most likely candidates.

Religion

I'd say the main aspect of Hlaalu religious custom is not discussing ones beliefs. While some would act as though they worship the divines, and some actually would worship the divines, many if not most would be devout Temple followers.

Another aspect is that most Hlaalu wouldn't take offense as easily as Dunmer tend to. At least not openly. If an outlander really offends them, they might hire an assassin, or the aid of the the Camonna Tong, or might crush the offender economically, but they'd generally try and make sure that the offender remains oblivious of their ire.

Non-merchant Hlaalu, not to mention the Velothi lower-class, would likely visit Andothren's temple regularly and do whatever else respectable Temple followers do. Merchants and upper-class Hlaalu would probably have their own way of worship. Not by regularly visiting temples, or making pilgrimages, or -- at least for the more tight-fisted Hlaalu -- donating to charity, but perhaps more subtly in how they live their life. Keeping in mind that the main religious figures of Tribunal faith include Vivec and, to a lesser extent, the Anticipations. An upstanding religious member of Dunmer society wouldn't necessarily pass as an upstanding figure in human society.

Also see Sload's pdf on House Hlaalu; the third page has some information on the Hlaalu view of religion.

We could also say that most Hlaalu Buoyant Armigers and Ordinators came from around Andothren.

Old Ebonheart vs. Andothren

In the Old Ebonheart-Hlaalu trade agreement, House Hlaalu guaranteed the Empire uncontested and un-tolled transport of (for example) Ebony, Gems and Dwemer artifacts down the Thirr river in return for a monopoly on almost all other goods.

Considering that the only safe route to Cyrodiil, as well as the most direct route, passes through Hlaalu lands, the deal wasn't unfavourable to the Imperials. The alternatives were sending those expensive goods around the harsh and unfriendly coast of Skyrim, or the harsh and unfriendly coast of Black Marsh, or through the harsh and unfriendly Redoran lands, or through the harsh and unfriendly Dres and Argonian lands. Pirates and bandits would have robbed any shipments that managed to survive those routes blind.

That being said, House Hlaalu still tolls those goods when they reach Narsis, so they haven't really lost anything out of the deal, while they have gained a near monopoly on local economy. House Hlaalu would carefully ensure that enough goods make it through their lands to convince the Imperials that the deal was worth it. (Which is to say that they may have struck a deal with the Camonna Tong to only rob a certain percentage of Imperial shipments passing through Hlaalu lands).

And having convinced the Empire that it was worth it, they were able to build up good relations with Old Ebonheart, much like with Caldera, giving Hlaalu some influence on Thirr's east bank. (The Indoril, through unwillingness to deal with Imperials, are as much responsible for that state of affairs as House Hlaalu).

(In a wave of nostalgia, I stumbled upon this old thread which mentions a Drenim-Andarius Treaty of 896)

As such, another theme of Andothren, (though it would be far more apparent in Narsis), could be to show how the Hlaalu and Imperials are not just business partners. Hlaalu is using the Empire to further its political interests, while the Empire's infrastructure and trade in Morrowind in its current state is wholly reliant on Hlaalu cooperation. If House Hlaalu were to suddenly close its borders to Cyrodiil, Imperial presence in Morrowind would probably be temporarily crippled, though the Empire would recover in time.

The Dwemer Ruin

The Lost Dwemer Checkpoint under the Mudan Grotto is very close to this ruin. (It may have been flooded with the flooding of the Inner Sea, now that I come to think of it. Which reminds me: why is the Dragonbone Cuirass, supposedly enchanted by Zurin Arctus in early 3E, in a Dwemer Ruin (they disappeared around 1E 700) in the Inner Sea (flooded 2E 572?)? Random nonsense, or can we make a story out of it, which could in turn help us figure out what to do with the ruin at Andothren?)

As to the lighthouse idea: keep in mind that, if the Dwemer built the lighthouse, it would have been a lighthouse that overlooked the lower half of the Thirr, not the Inner Sea. Which could still work. An alternative would be that it is a ruined tower re-purposed as a lighthouse by the Dunmer.

Hlaalu Politics

Andothren is the center of Hlaalu commerce north of the Armun Ashlands. That might include the whole west bank of the Thirr, as there is no other major Hlaalu city currently planned that sits anywhere near as close to the river, unless you count Narsis. (I'm not sure how large Novas Andaram on the east bank will end up being; it may be the player stronghold, which means that it may not exist at the start of the game anyway). As such, an immense amount of goods would be transported through Andothren from and to the many plantations in the region. Andothren would also be an important trade nexus between Hlaalu's Vvardenfell holdings and the Hlaalu heartland.

Andothren would effectively be its own trade node, at or beyond the outermost reaches of Narsis influence. Compared to Narsis, of course, it has a far lesser importance. That, in turn, makes it a more attainable target to those with ambition. The result is that Andothren would be home to various individuals and interest groups vying for power.

The Hlaalu faction questline might involve rising to power in the political free-for-all that is Andothren before going south to tackle Narsis and, possibly, Hlaalu's big secret.

Camonna Tong

In line with the above, I'm thinking that the Camonna Tong, rather than infiltrating House Hlaalu, is simply another interest group in the city, though one of the most influential ones. A Hlaalu noble might make a deal with the Camonna Tong at noon and then chat with an Imperial emissary over dinner. While it would be unlikely for the Camonna Tong to strike a deal with the Imperials, they wouldn't necessarily conflict. Or if they do it would generally be in a fairly controlled manner.

Outside of the city, the power of the Camonna Tong would be more apparent, though. They'd probably have a pretty solid hold over the surrounding plantations, despite the best efforts of independent bandits and smugglers. They might also have a deal with House Hlaalu to 'collect toll' from non-Hlaalu travellers -- especially Imperials -- on occasion.

Fighter's Guild

Going with the above, two natural directions we could go present themselves: either the Fighter's Guild is fairly legitimate and will take the player all across the Armun Ashlands and Roth Roryn to deal with various problems, such as protecting a caravan headed north from Ald Erfoud; or the Fighter's Guild acts as the enforcer for various interest groups and individuals in Andothren. Again, rather than directly being infiltrated, the Fighter's Guild would just impartially take contracts. A mixture is, of course, also possible.
Either way, the Fighter's Guild would probably be involved in locals dealings to some degree, for example they would probably refuse contracts that would get them on the wrong side of House Hlaalu or the Camonna Tong.

Thieves' Guild

Going with the concept of the Thieves Guild trying to establish itself in Andothren, what if they use the (no doubt fairly empty) Dwemer ruins as a guild hall, to avoid coming into direct conflict with the Camonna Tong in the city proper? Maybe they try to pass themselves off as an Imperial Archaeological Society team if pestered.

Alternatively, it could be an early Fighter's Guild location: as the Dwemer ruin is so close to Andothren, it was probably mostly cleared and looted. The player might be asked to deal with some small-time crooks who are trying to set up a base there, or some rats that infested the place or something.
Post Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:08 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

Gnomey wrote:
Travel

For Andothren travel locations, how about Seyda Neen or Vivec instead of Ebonheart? I'm sure Ebonheart would receive East Empire Company and Imperial Navy ships from across the Inner Sea, but as for passengers, I'm wondering whether they wouldn't be redirected to the Census and Excise office in Seyda Neen. Unless we're planning on cutting all references of the quarantine from vanilla dialogue, at least the Imperials should probably observe it in some way.


We *are* cutting these references from vanilla dialogue.

Gnomey wrote:
Andothren could be the destination of the fabled "gondola to the mainland" the player mentions to the C&E officer in Vivec, (the only other likely candidate would be the Hlaalu shack village to the east), or Seyda Neen could become a focal point of Inner Sea travel, connecting (for example) to Teyn, Andothren, Old Ebonheart and maybe Hla Ruhn.


Seyda Neen is a bit too small and insignificant (and its port is very small) for that. (What is Hla Ruhn again?)

Gnomey wrote:
The Dwemer Ruin

The Lost Dwemer Checkpoint under the Mudan Grotto is very close to this ruin. (It may have been flooded with the flooding of the Inner Sea, now that I come to think of it. Which reminds me: why is the Dragonbone Cuirass, supposedly enchanted by Zurin Arctus in early 3E, in a Dwemer Ruin (they disappeared around 1E 700) in the Inner Sea (flooded 2E 572?)? Random nonsense, or can we make a story out of it, which could in turn help us figure out what to do with the ruin at Andothren?)


Be aware that everything we do about this would probably lower the easter-egg status of the Mudan ruin. Which is not a bad thing in my opinion -- we just should be aware of it.

Gnomey wrote:
(I'm not sure how large Novas Andaram on the east bank will end up being; it may be the player stronghold, which means that it may not exist at the start of the game anyway).


Player stronghold for what house? I'm confused.
Post Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:56 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
immortal_pigs
Developer
15 May 2008

Location: Utrecht

Excellent post Gnomey, I feel like you've fleshed out most of the important concepts surrounding the city.

So for travel we now have: Seyda Neen, Vivec, Teyn, Shack Village. We should probably get a "Travel [Section]" in the Master Plan forums to handle travel mod-wide.

I like your views on the Hlaalu not taken offense visably. It fits in their duplicitous nature. Also like the economy stuff, and the Camonna Tong only robbing a certain fixed percentage.

It's probably a ruined tower repurposed, that's an easier explanation.

We should probably make a "Hlaalu [Master Plan]" thread in the Master Plan forums to handle the big picture stuff, such as how does Andothren relate to Narsis or Balmora or Kragenmoor.

I think we can give the Camonna Tong one, maybe two plantations. Not too many though. In my imagination they hold like a 20% inluence over House Hlaalu, which would be reflected in the amount of plantations they hold. (Consider they also have a big presence on Vvardenfel witht the Dren Plantation and that skooma plantation).

I like the Thieves Guild finding refuge in the Dwemer Ruin. I agree they should probably be tryin to establish a presence in the city, rather than already having a strong presence. In any case, the TG and the FG should probably get a section thread sometime soon.
Post Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:08 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

arvisrend wrote:
We *are* cutting these references from vanilla dialogue.


Nevermind then. Good to know.

arvisrend wrote:
Seyda Neen is a bit too small and insignificant (and its port is very small) for that. (What is Hla Ruhn again?)


Vanilla dialogue on Seyda Neen:

Savant wrote:
The piercing light of the Grand Pharos at the mouth of the harbor of the port village of Seyda Neen is a beacon to mariners throughout the Inner Sea. Most visitors from the Empire make landfall at the port of Seyda Neen, where they are processed by the Imperial Census and Excise Commission agents of the Coastguard station. The Coastguard cutters docked here control smuggling and piracy on the Inner Sea.


Some exaggeration on "Grand Pharos" and "control smuggling and piracy", though. Nonetheless, despite how pathetic its dock is, that is pretty much the singular purpose of Seyda Neen. It doesn't really have anything else going for it.

Hla Ruhn is a small Redoran village in the claim TR_5-4, cell (-16; -3), and the nearest Redoran dock to Andothren, at roughly the distance between Khuul and Dagon Fel. It only has a skiff at the moment, though. It could be skipped in favour of Kogomar (claim TR_5-22, cell (-15, 1)), but that might be a little too far away. In that case, Andothren would probably only offer ship service as far west as Teyn, which would then offer transport to Kogomar.
I do think a separate travel section or maybe thread in Master Planning would be a good idea, though. In the meanwhile, I'll probably see if I can cobble together a workable map.

arvisrend wrote:
Player stronghold for what house? I'm confused.


Novas Andaram is currently planned as the only Hlaalu settlement on the east bank of the Thirr, which was newly established. One idea floating about was to make it the player stronghold in House Hlaalu, effectively putting the player in the middle of the conflict around Thirr.

immortal_pigs wrote:
I think we can give the Camonna Tong one, maybe two plantations. Not too many though.


I was thinking more along the lines of protection rackets and the like as opposed to direct ownership, if I wasn't clear, but direct ownership also works.
Post Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:30 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Quote:
They might also have a deal with House Hlaalu to 'collect toll' from non-Hlaalu travellers -- especially Imperials -- on occasion.


We could also have Cammona Tong abducting free Argonians and Khajiit travelers on the road to sell as slaves. I had a quest plan designed for Almas Thirr built around this idea, but Andothren might be a better location to adapt it.

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Post Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:12 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

Yeti wrote:
We could also have Cammona Tong abducting free Argonians and Khajiit travelers on the road to sell as slaves. I had a quest plan designed for Almas Thirr built around this idea, but Andothren might be a better location to adapt it.


Fun as this is, it could take away from the (relatively!) homey feel of our low-level regions. Maybe if you don't make it seem like a regular occurrence but rather as something new ("The Camonna is getting more and more insolent lately. They might be right the Legion will look the other way as they're kidnapping lizards under their nose. But one day it'll hurt some Hlaalu business and we'll see that discussed out on the streets of Andothren.")

What about having the CT's "enforcers" quartered somewhere in caves in the RR? It's close enough to Andothren and the plantations for them to cooperate with the bosses, while at the same time sufficiently far away to hide from whatever little law enforcement would otherwise look their way. Or is there no need to that? I'm suggesting this purely out of gameplay concerns: Exploration is much more rewarding when there is some detective component in it, and there might even be a way to prevent some murders that would otherwise occur in later quests.
Post Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:41 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
immortal_pigs
Developer
15 May 2008

Location: Utrecht

Document on the types of NPCs in Andothren.

+ link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C5aiVghd-nqQnAcOLoVzFRoIOsGAqUkQp0H5fveHkvU/edit



AndothrenNPCsandDialog.pdf
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq2eYOCQ4XKjdElPUUFJUFREN29vaU5XT1lscVYwRlE&usp=drive_web#gid=0
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Terrifying Daedric Foe
Developer
26 Aug 2010

Location: England

Yeti wrote:
Then again, having one or two Guild members checking out the ruin could be fun. The locals think they're wasting their time spelunking in a largely looted ruin, and the head of the Guild in Andothren also holds a dim view of their interest, believing that local Daedric ruins hold far more scholarly value. Perhaps at one point in the local questline, the player will be sent to investigate what they're up to after nothing is heard from them for a spell.

Perhaps, to mix things up a bit, the reason they haven't reported back isn't because they've been attacked by bandits or awoken something they shouldn't, but because they've deliberately absconded for some reason (to get married, leave the Guild to carry out their own research, etc). They leave a note explaining their actions and the player has a choice of whether to pursue them and try to bring them, or to leave them be.

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Post Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:32 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Three notes on the last part of that document: first of all, on 6th House cultists, apparently they assassinated "prominent Imperial citizens and Hlaalu Imperial sympathizers." If we're going to portray the assassination of Hlaalu Imperial sympathizers anywhere in this mod, it would be in Andothren, due to its proximity to Vvardenfell. It should definitely come up in dialogue, at least, such as in "Latest Rumors".

We could also include trade of Ash Statues, at least among smugglers. While they probably haven't really spread to the mainland, Andothren, as one of the most (if not the most) important ports on the Inner Sea, might still have a few pass through its port, especially as the Camonna Tong have a deal with Dagoth Ur.

Finally, on the Blades, their placement in Vvardenfell was very deliberate, following a precise strategy, which actually appears to be specifically geared to fighting Dagoth Ur. They by no means appear to have been placed at random, and I think we should leave off of putting them anywhere until we set up a specific plan on how they should be distributed across the province and make sure that they really belong there.
That wouldn't be too hard, either, because in Morrowind they are portrayed as being capable at their job. We'd really only need to go in later and add one or two lines of dialogue and a faction affiliation to NPCs who are in the right places to make them Blades agents.
That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one Blades agent ends up in Andothren, as well as Old Ebonheart, Almas Thirr and Narsis. After all, like Nine-Toes, they would need to ensure that, in the worst case, Imperial troops could land on Vvardenfell, and especially considering the conflict around the Thirr, they'd probably want to make sure they know how the wind blows.
Post Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:05 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



a lot of this discussion seems way outside the realm of andothren and should be discussed in master planning
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Post Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:07 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

To tell the truth I'm a little hesitant to create threads there. Should I feel free to create threads on lower-priority topics, for example '[Region] Argon Jungle', or should I keep to higher-priority topics?

Back on-topic, I have a few more notes on the .pdf:

First, something to keep in mind is that some of the labour force would also probably have a Hlaalu affiliation, as not all members of the House are merchants, plantation owners and politicians. House membership is dictated by birth and marriage among other factors.
The Velothi might also not be the devout group after all, taking another look at the only line I can find on them in Morrowind:

Savant wrote:
The Velothi are people of Ashlander stock who have abandoned nomadic life and settled among the native Dunmer; the Velothi are despised by their Ashlander cousins as weak and soft, while the Dunmer look down upon the Velothi as an insignificant underclass.


That opens up a few more lines of discussion, though, and really does belong to master planning.

Catcatchers who abduct slaves from Elsweyr would probably be in Kragenmoor, if anywhere. While free Khajiit and, for that matter, Argonians might be abducted by illegal groups in Hlaalu land, that would probably just be one of many illegal activities rather than a distinct profession.

Finally, I took the liberty of adding two classes to the google document I think belong there (in green):

Temple Clergy: potentially has a big influence on Andothren politics and local life. Where do their allegiances lie in the Hlaalu-Indoril conflict? Do they ascribe to the false neutrality policy of the Temple in Almas Thirr, are they opposed to it or do they avoid the issue? The answers to such questions would potentially have a significant effect on the dynamic and atmosphere of Andothren.
Hlaalu Guards: while I don't have too much to say on them, they are a class distinct from the others that were mentioned and have an important role in the city. As such, they're probably worth keeping in mind. Especially considering questions like whether they are corrupt, or in any way influenced by local politics.

Edit: I cut down on the bit on catcatchers as discussion has moved to this thread.
Post Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:00 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



so some of these questions are local questions (like wtf is happening at the Dwemer ruin) but a lot are actually Master Planning questions (like what the Hlaalu are like). A completed Hlaalu Master Plan document would cover the most basic concept of each Tier I & II settlement (Andothren is like this, whereas Kragenmoor is like this).
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Post Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:57 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



Okay, we need to transition into actualizing Andothren.

I think we should go through these steps:

1. Converting this brainstorm into a plan.
2. Writing all the generic dialog.
3. Creating the NPCs.
4. Making the local misc questions.

---

It seems from the master planning thread that making Andothren a Camonna Tong controlled city works for the whole project. So what we have as the vaguest sketch of Andothren is this:

The Hlaalu's only oceanic port is Andothren, just west of the Thirr. This major trading port is controlled by the Camonna Tong. Andothren is filled with waterfalls & lies in the shadows of a major Dwemer ruin. The bay has been a Temple holy site for centuries.

The things to address then are:
-Making sure its really a port.
-Camonna Tong control & foreigners type stuff.
-The Dwemer ruins.
-Religiosity.

---

Religious stuff: I think Andothren's waterfalls should be Almalexia's miracle of "bringing the sky low & making the earth cry sweet water" to provide a refuge for the Dunmer armies during the Battle of Red Mountain, when Kagrenac sunk the Valley of Veloth & created the Inner Sea. The fresh water falls still exist here as a reminder of her glory.

I don't think Andothren's religiosity should be connected to the Hlaalu in any way. Its not a quirk of the local Hlaalu that the port they control is a religious site, its just a fact. It seems like a better explanation that the Temple is prominent because it is a religious site rather than that the Temple is prominent because these Hlaalu are uncharacteristically faithful. Rather, I'd have the Camonna Tong cheating and bilking pilgrims who come to Andothren.

---

Dwemer ruin: I wanted to make a lighthouse in the Dwemer ruin to make it memorable & unique instead of putting another observatory there to make it so that no Dwemer ruin is memorable & unique. I also think the ext should be changed to make sure its visible from much of Andothren with graphics extenders.

I don't think the ruin needs to be looted as in "not a fun adventure." I think if the upper levels are looted just enough that low-level players can explore them, that is good. Whats important is that this ruin is one a lot of players are going to visit, & since the spotlight is on it it needs to be good and fun.

If it has a lighthouse, maybe some old cook is living there making it work?

---

Some people were talking about fast travel & I want to mention that fast travel needs to be figured out on a province-wide basis & not in the Andothren thread. Andothren will have fast travel to whatever cities people tell us it has fast travel to.

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Post Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:38 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

Sload wrote:
Rather, I'd have the Camonna Tong cheating and bilking pilgrims who come to Andothren.


+1. Makes for really good dialogue and quests, and creates an appropriately uncomfortable yet not unsafe atmosphere to the player.

Sload wrote:
Some people were talking about fast travel & I want to mention that fast travel needs to be figured out on a province-wide basis & not in the Andothren thread. Andothren will have fast travel to whatever cities people tell us it has fast travel to.


Can you start a thread about it in Master Planning with your old map updated to things we agreed on?
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immortal_pigs
Developer
15 May 2008

Location: Utrecht

How do you reckon we take care of the dialog aspect of things? Make a separate proposal thread in Andothren - Thirr? And do we use a google drive doc accessible to everyone? Excel or just a doc?
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arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

I don't see much of a use for spreadsheets, so IMHO a doc is fine.
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immortal_pigs
Developer
15 May 2008

Location: Utrecht

Before we go ahead with all this I want to bring up a few more points

1) I've heard mentioned that House Hlaalu would have Tongs as well. If so, what kind of Tongs do we want to have in the city of Andothren. About 2 or so should be sufficient.

2) What about cornerclubs? Are these a distinctly Hlaalu thing? I had the impression that these cornerclubs might be the place where the real Hlaalu action happens (making deals, planning scams).

3) Following this, it might be nice to edit some of the cornerclub interiors to add a "secret smoke filled room".

4) See uploaded image. There's a building that looks a lot like a Hlaalu Council Hall atop the stairs of East Side Andothren. What's the deal with this building? (The real council hall seems to be over in the west of Andothren).



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Bero
Reviewer
26 Sep 2007

Location: Slovakia

It is council hall => http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=176560
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Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

First of all, as we're discussing the city, an updated city plan might be useful. I'd like to know what presence the Camonna Tong currently have in the city, and whether it should be increased. It would also probably help with general planning to have an overview of what the city actually contains.
For current plans, my best efforts revealed this fossil of a thread about Stonefalls. It is, needless to say, incredibly outdated. Do we have anything more recent?

Sload wrote:
I don't think Andothren's religiosity should be connected to the Hlaalu in any way. Its not a quirk of the local Hlaalu that the port they control is a religious site, its just a fact. It seems like a better explanation that the Temple is prominent because it is a religious site rather than that the Temple is prominent because these Hlaalu are uncharacteristically faithful. Rather, I'd have the Camonna Tong cheating and bilking pilgrims who come to Andothren.


I was originally thinking that the religious nature of the settlement (and, possibly, the fact that the area may have belonged to House Indoril before) drew in a religious population, but I'm fine with handling it this way, too.
That does bring two questions to my mind, though:
First, how would we handle the religiosity of the surrounding region, such as the Shrine of St. Aralor in (-3, -18)? Would the proximity of the sites be a coincidence?
Secondly, what is the dynamic between the Temple and the Camonna Tong? I suppose the Camonna Tong are unscrupulous in their business practices, but are they iconoclasts?

Sload wrote:
Dwemer ruin: I wanted to make a lighthouse in the Dwemer ruin to make it memorable & unique instead of putting another observatory there to make it so that no Dwemer ruin is memorable & unique.


I mentioned this before, but how were you thinking of handling the lighthouse? Would it be a re-purposed ruined tower, or would the Dwemer have built it as a lighthouse to, for instance, illuminate what was then probably the lower Thirr?

On that note, did the ruin as a whole have a specific function? Did the nearby Lost Dwemer Checkpoint hidden in the Mudan Grotto play a role in that function?

Sload wrote:
I don't think the ruin needs to be looted as in "not a fun adventure." I think if the upper levels are looted just enough that low-level players can explore them, that is good. Whats important is that this ruin is one a lot of players are going to visit, & since the spotlight is on it it needs to be good and fun.


I agree with your overall point on what experience we would want the player to have in the ruins, but I'd still like a clearer idea of how to present that experience.
As the ruins are overlooking a city, and the city is owned by the mercantile Hlaalu and is likely surrounded by smugglers as well as several Imperial settlements, I'd prefer if a clear reason were given for the ruins not to have been emptied of loot.
One solution could be to make parts of the ruin less accessible, while still providing a good experience for low-level characters, for example by including puzzles, or making some rooms and hallways so ruined that platforming is required, or, as is partially the case with the current interior, having parts of the ruins only be accessible via shafts.
Basically, rather than having a part of the ruin nobody ever discovered until the player came along, having parts of the ruin that nobody ever took the trouble to systematically clear.

Sload wrote:
If it has a lighthouse, maybe some old cook is living there making it work?


An "old cook" or an "old kook"? I'd really be fine with either, though I'd prefer if any craziness would be handled differently from this fellow or the fellows at the end of this page, who fulfilled a similar function. Most people probably haven't played Redguard, though, so it's hardly a big deal.

Edit: I do think Andothren should have cornerclubs, if it doesn't already. I'm not so sure on Tongs; I'd be fine either way, the question is just whether the Hlaalu should have a lot of Tongs or whether Tongs are more of an Indoril/Almalexia thing for the most part.
Post Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:44 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



Quote:
For current plans, my best efforts revealed this fossil of a thread about Stonefalls. It is, needless to say, incredibly outdated. Do we have anything more recent?


Yeah we need a good overhead and to identify anything that needs to be changed in ints or exts to go along with writing dialog. Can you take some pics from your version of the file (I can work on identifying all the important ints & the city sections from those pics).

Quote:
I was originally thinking that the religious nature of the settlement (and, possibly, the fact that the area may have belonged to House Indoril before) drew in a religious population, but I'm fine with handling it this way, too.
That does bring two questions to my mind, though:
First, how would we handle the religiosity of the surrounding region, such as the Shrine of St. Aralor in (-3, -18)? Would the proximity of the sites be a coincidence?
Secondly, what is the dynamic between the Temple and the Camonna Tong? I suppose the Camonna Tong are unscrupulous in their business practices, but are they iconoclasts?


I think doing something with the fact that this land was once Indoril (incl. for example, how it became Hlaalu) is probably important, and extends beyond this city to possibly the whole section. Someone should think up a good explanation for that. I think the most basic core of the explanation is the Company inherited the land from an Indoril, but there are other things we can do with that: how did the company come to be the inheritor of an Indoril lord? Did someone else get squeezed out? Is it Ilvi? That's just what comes to my mind, I'm sure other people have other ideas.

I think it would be weird for the Camonna Tong to be actively anti-religious; they seem apathetic to questions that don't involve money or outlanders.

Sload wrote:
Dwemer ruin: I wanted to make a lighthouse in the Dwemer ruin to make it memorable & unique instead of putting another observatory there to make it so that no Dwemer ruin is memorable & unique.


Quote:
I mentioned this before, but how were you thinking of handling the lighthouse? Would it be a re-purposed ruined tower, or would the Dwemer have built it as a lighthouse to, for instance, illuminate what was then probably the lower Thirr?

On that note, did the ruin as a whole have a specific function? Did the nearby Lost Dwemer Checkpoint hidden in the Mudan Grotto play a role in that function?


Yeah no idea on any of this (& your other thoughts on the ruin are good too!). Someone should claim "figuring out what the Dwemer ruin is like;" I think the important goal is that it a) make sense with its proximity to the city (having smugglers as the baddies in the upper level, for example, Arkngthand style); b) be a fun play experience.


Quote:
An "old cook" or an "old kook"? I'd really be fine with either, though I'd prefer if any craziness would be handled differently from this fellow or the fellows at the end of this page, who fulfilled a similar function. Most people probably haven't played Redguard, though, so it's hardly a big deal.


Haha I meant kook, but maybe they're a cook?


Quote:
Edit: I do think Andothren should have cornerclubs, if it doesn't already. I'm not so sure on Tongs; I'd be fine either way, the question is just whether the Hlaalu should have a lot of Tongs or whether Tongs are more of an Indoril/Almalexia thing for the most part.


I think Tongs aside from the Camonna Tong should be introduced as they are needed in the quest, not put there & then we think of quests for them later. I think Andothren needs a cornerclub & I don't know if it has one already. I also think that Aldruhn & Balmora had "council clubs"? What's up with these made up names for different kinds of bars?

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Post Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:09 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Sload wrote:
I also think that Aldruhn & Balmora had "council clubs"? What's up with these made up names for different kinds of bars?


It does have interesting implications on Dunmer (especially Hlaalu) social life. To me it brings to mind the European coffeehouses and British gentlemen's clubs.

I'll see to those overhead images.

Edit: actually, now that I check UESP, there are more clubs in Morrowind than I remember: one in Sadrith Mora, two in Vivec, two in Balmora and one in Ald-ruhn. Maybe we should be more consistent in including clubs in settlements?
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Terrifying Daedric Foe
Developer
26 Aug 2010

Location: England

Sload wrote:
I think doing something with the fact that this land was once Indoril (incl. for example, how it became Hlaalu) is probably important, and extends beyond this city to possibly the whole section. Someone should think up a good explanation for that. I think the most basic core of the explanation is the Company inherited the land from an Indoril, but there are other things we can do with that: how did the company come to be the inheritor of an Indoril lord? Did someone else get squeezed out? Is it Ilvi? That's just what comes to my mind, I'm sure other people have other ideas.

How about the ruling Indoril family of Andothren was decimated during the mass suicides. Then some enterprising young Hlaalu married a surviving distant cousin and claimed control of the city with the support of Camonna Tong money and muscle. Indoril was powerless to resist, as they were with Ebonheart on the other bank of the Thirr. Over the following decades the city was entirely rebuilt in good ol' Hlaalu style (at first they used the excuse that they were enlarging and improving the docks, but soon gave up on that pretence).

Sload wrote:
Haha I meant kook, but maybe they're a cook?

Well, if they live on their own in the lighthouse they'll need to cook their own food. Smile

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immortal_pigs
Developer
15 May 2008

Location: Utrecht

Quote:
I'd like to know what presence the Camonna Tong currently have in the city, and whether it should be increased. It would also probably help with general planning to have an overview of what the city actually contains.


(Because people love quotas). I'd like to see three Camonna Tong cornerclubs. The point here is that they will all have that distinct Camonna Tong vibe, where the inhabitants are rather rude and verbally hostile, but they don't outright attack. For more specifics: one club should be for Camonna Tong lowlife thugs. One club should be for plantations owners and businessmen. One club should be for Hlaalu politicians.

(Another quota). I'd like to see at least one plantation owner living in the city of Andothren. It doesn't have to be big baws Rethil (or whatever the name will be). Let's say it's Mundrethi (who should get a name change). This is mainly to represent the plantation owners presence in the city.

Quote:
I was originally thinking that the religious nature of the settlement (and, possibly, the fact that the area may have belonged to House Indoril before) drew in a religious population, but I'm fine with handling it this way, too. That does bring two questions to my mind, though:
First, how would we handle the religiosity of the surrounding region, such as the Shrine of St. Aralor in (-3, -18)? Would the proximity of the sites be a coincidence?
Secondly, what is the dynamic between the Temple and the Camonna Tong? I suppose the Camonna Tong are unscrupulous in their business practices, but are they iconoclasts?


I don't think the Camonna Tong should be iconoclasts and imo having them extort Tribunal Pilgrims goes a bit far doesn't it? The dynamic between the Temple and the Tong should be that they ignore each other. But it might be nice to have the Andothren priest be tied to the Camonna Tong!

The Shrine of St. Aralor issue is something that follows from an absence of a Tribunal Temple Master Plan. Locations of shrines ought to follow this Master Plan, as opposed to having to be backwards rationalized into existance.

Quote:
I mentioned this before, but how were you thinking of handling the lighthouse? Would it be a re-purposed ruined tower, or would the Dwemer have built it as a lighthouse to, for instance, illuminate what was then probably the lower Thirr?


Repurposed tower. We don't know what the area was like back in the Dwemer days. A Dwemer lighthouse seems a charming idea. I like the idea of connecting to the Mudan Grotto, unless that means touching the double V.

Quote:
Basically, rather than having a part of the ruin nobody ever discovered until the player came along, having parts of the ruin that nobody ever took the trouble to systematically clear.


Personally I would like the Dwemer ruin to be empty. Maybe have some shady Camonna Tong activity going on inside. Or perhaps some fugitive/criminal/fugitive slaves hiding in the ruin. It makes no sense to have a dangerous ruin so close to the city imo.

Quote:
I think doing something with the fact that this land was once Indoril (incl. for example, how it became Hlaalu) is probably important, and extends beyond this city to possibly the whole section. Someone should think up a good explanation for that. I think the most basic core of the explanation is the Company inherited the land from an Indoril, but there are other things we can do with that: how did the company come to be the inheritor of an Indoril lord? Did someone else get squeezed out? Is it Ilvi? That's just what comes to my mind, I'm sure other people have other ideas.

How about the ruling Indoril family of Andothren was decimated during the mass suicides. Then some enterprising young Hlaalu married a surviving distant cousin and claimed control of the city with the support of Camonna Tong money and muscle. Indoril was powerless to resist, as they were with Ebonheart on the other bank of the Thirr. Over the following decades the city was entirely rebuilt in good ol' Hlaalu style (at first they used the excuse that they were enlarging and improving the docks, but soon gave up on that pretence).


For the Hlaalu Councilman of Andothren I'd like to go with the name Tholer Andas. Tholer for the religious connotations; Tholer Saryioni (which should make a nice contrast with the Tong affiliation). Andas for it's short Hlaaluesque bite and the "And" relating to "Andothren".

I'd like to see the River Thirr/Almas Thirr conflict be between Draler Ilvi (who is something of a warrior poet; see "The Formalities..." book series in Literature & Writing) and Dram Bero (who is also something of a warrior poet; see "Grasping Fortune"). The reason I mention this is because I don't want the Thirr conflict to be about Andothren Councilor vs. Roa Dyr Councilor. So I don't like the idea of Ilvi being squeezed and this being his motivation for a House war. I like to think both Ilvi and Bero being idealistic warrior poets fighting it out because of ideals and not selfish drives.

So how did the Hlaalu Council Company come to inherit the Andothren lands? The implication would be that the left bank of the Thirr was once all Indoril territory and that all these Hlaalu plantations are relatively recent enterprises. I kind of like the idea of a prominent Indoril family turning sides and joining the Hlaalu. In this case the prominent family would be the Andasril, who then became the Andas family, now headed by Tholer Andas.

edit:
updated le Andothren Master Plan document



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Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Idea: Andothren was originally a small Hlaalu enclave in Indoril lands that was granted to it sometime in the Second Era to help facilitate the flow of western goods into the northern reaches of the province. After the Armistice, it grew into the larger port it is today.
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Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



I don't agree with everything immpigs posted but right not what I'm posting about.


----

Main player-relevant ints in Andothren. Yellow shops, orange factions, pink taverns. (green i4-89 is supposed to be yellow & is a shop).

When kingfish laid Andothren out, he seems to have made two main commercial/guild locations, the middle-level street on the west side, and the main square on the east side. I moved i4-66 to the hill above because of layout issues, but it was on that same street as i4-72 & i4-74 before.

There are also two commercial ints (a bar & a pawnbroker) by whats basically a manor district. The pawnbroker doesn't make sense here, the bar is supposed to be "upper class" so it does make sense. Finally, there's a tavern & an outfitter near what will be the west & east ports.

I think this should be slightly restructured, necessitating some int changes.

-i4-89 should be moved and that building should not be a pawnbroker.
-i4-64 should not be an alchemist, but that area is still in an early stage of production & we should figure that whole area out (its a recent addition to the city to deal with building spacing issues).
-i4-71 or i4-80 should become an alchemist to replace i4-64 & solidify that street as a merchants' street.

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Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

What is the unidentified shop right south of i4-74? Is that i4-66?

As for the rest of the plan, I'd nominate i4-80 as the new alchemist's shop. It's currently somewhat seedy looking residential housing that might do better elsewhere. However, another possibility would be to extend the commercial road upstairs to where i4-64 currently is, perhaps squeezing the interior of i4-89 in there too.

I do think establishing a plan for the new quarter and the new docks should be a pretty high priority, though.

Edit: in reply to IP's posts in this thread:

immortal_pigs wrote:
The manor i4-90 seems to be the right location for the Andothren boss, with the attached i4-91 being a nice place for a backdoor smoke filled room where the secret Hlaalu action happens.

i4-124 "The Dancing Cup" is a bit of a boring name, right?

I'd also like to have one Blades' agent in the city as a parallel to Balmora, maybe i4-117?

i4-89 seems like a nice manor for a plantation owner.


I agree on every point except for the Blades agent, for reasons I have outlined earlier in this thread, with special mention of my point that the only way to identify Blades agents in Vvardenfell was through dialogue anyway. Until we get around to planning the Blades faction and any Blades-related questlines, I think it would be better to ignore the fact that the Blades exist.
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immortal_pigs
Developer
15 May 2008

Location: Utrecht

Proposal for the i4-64 area:
We make this Andothren's nasty area. This would be the hub where the Camonna Tong hang out. Also some kind of a smuggling den where they keep moon sugar and other goodies. The area's proximity to the docks makes it easier to smuggle. The area would look like a bunch of interiors connected to each other and maybe also have that dangerous sideway street vibe of Balmora (see image). As you can see if you pass the gate between i4-108 and i4-60 you could easily access the water from the road. I'd imagine smuggling ships arriving at night and silently moving their warez along this route, as opposed to via the main docks.

http://api.ning.com/files/qn5ZDC3BwWlsSKGvmRp9bbBQeQ*00HrMxSmKeXc8Jy*XQrkGLIjvGcYyV5LXvKMMv3FkOQ6s3dL-jMp0F4MwXHxGbnC2szEf/camonna_tong_by_lelek1980d4ppv0x.jpg

(Can someone teach me how to inbed images into words?)

**

I agree with Gnomey on the Blades and Sload on creating a commercial street.

I would like to keep the outside manor shell of i4-89, which is apparently a pawnbroker. I would like this to be the manor of some plantation magnate.

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Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

I was kind of a fan of Gnomey's western harbour idea. Are these going to be made?

Also, when everything's been decided, I can put up the ints if so desired. I know some of you can do it too though, so it's up to you.
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Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



immortal_pigs wrote:
(Because people love quotas). I'd like to see three Camonna Tong cornerclubs. The point here is that they will all have that distinct Camonna Tong vibe, where the inhabitants are rather rude and verbally hostile, but they don't outright attack. For more specifics: one club should be for Camonna Tong lowlife thugs. One club should be for plantations owners and businessmen. One club should be for Hlaalu politicians.

(Another quota). I'd like to see at least one plantation owner living in the city of Andothren. It doesn't have to be big baws Rethil (or whatever the name will be). Let's say it's Mundrethi (who should get a name change). This is mainly to represent the plantation owners presence in the city.


I don't agree with any of this. Yes, because quotas. Because you put a number before having a reason for it. You didn't even know what clubs Andothren had before you posted this!

We have four clubs in Andothren. One is on the main square, one is in the manor district, two are near the docks. One of these is a Thieves Guild, presumably, leaving three. One is obviously a council club, being in the upper class district and not having beds to let. This is for Camonna Tong / Hlaalu elite (why would there be a separate one for "plantation owners and businessmen" and "Hlaalu politicians"? those two sets are identical!).

Should one of the other taverns be run by Camonna thugs? Sure, I think the one near the west docks. That doesn't mean full of thugs exclusively, that means full of sailors and some thugs.

As to the plantation owners, they should live on their plantations because that's why they have plantations with manors on them. Not being in Andothren doesn't mean they don't run it.

Quote:
I don't think the Camonna Tong should be iconoclasts and imo having them extort Tribunal Pilgrims goes a bit far doesn't it? The dynamic between the Temple and the Tong should be that they ignore each other. But it might be nice to have the Andothren priest be tied to the Camonna Tong!


Do you know what cheating and bilking is? Do you know what extortion is? I don't even know how you extort a pilgrim instead of straight up robbing them, a poor stranger far from home doesn't really have much you can threaten.

Price gouging, fraud, & confidence tricks. Cheating and bilking, what the operators of sketch taverns & saloons have done for centuries.

Like Thernardier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k6uqhKEAOM


Quote:
Personally I would like the Dwemer ruin to be empty. Maybe have some shady Camonna Tong activity going on inside. Or perhaps some fugitive/criminal/fugitive slaves hiding in the ruin. It makes no sense to have a dangerous ruin so close to the city imo.
Like you didn't read my previous posts on the subject.


Quote:
I'd like to see the River Thirr/Almas Thirr conflict be between Draler Ilvi (who is something of a warrior poet; see "The Formalities..." book series in Literature & Writing) and Dram Bero (who is also something of a warrior poet; see "Grasping Fortune"). The reason I mention this is because I don't want the Thirr conflict to be about Andothren Councilor vs. Roa Dyr Councilor. So I don't like the idea of Ilvi being squeezed and this being his motivation for a House war. I like to think both Ilvi and Bero being idealistic warrior poets fighting it out because of ideals and not selfish drives.
This is absolutely not the right thread to talk about it. This is the thread for the city of Andothren, not for the Hlaalu or Indoril faction.
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Post Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:31 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Terrifying Daedric Foe
Developer
26 Aug 2010

Location: England

Sload wrote:
immortal_pigs wrote:
(Because people love quotas). I'd like to see three Camonna Tong cornerclubs. The point here is that they will all have that distinct Camonna Tong vibe, where the inhabitants are rather rude and verbally hostile, but they don't outright attack. For more specifics: one club should be for Camonna Tong lowlife thugs. One club should be for plantations owners and businessmen. One club should be for Hlaalu politicians.

(Another quota). I'd like to see at least one plantation owner living in the city of Andothren. It doesn't have to be big baws Rethil (or whatever the name will be). Let's say it's Mundrethi (who should get a name change). This is mainly to represent the plantation owners presence in the city.


I don't agree with any of this.

Out of interest, why not? I don't see anything particularly wrong with these suggestions, although three cornerclubs is maybe a bit excessive.

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Post Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:40 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



I meant to write that out before I clicked post.

Gnomey wrote:
What is the unidentified shop right south of i4-74? Is that i4-66?
i4-76, the bookstore.
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Post Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:41 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch
Developer
31 Dec 2013



can i get my showcase interior in for this still? you never answered my pm from 2 weeks ago bout this.
Post Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:47 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I'd say it's still rather early to tell. We don't have concrete plans for the western docks and the new area Sload added in the northwestern corner of the city.

As far as the Camonna Tong are concerned, I think something to keep in mind is that they are not like the Imperial Guilds. They wouldn't just keep to clubs; they'd have a presence in various parts of the city. The owner of i4-72 might have Camonna Tong ties. The guards in i4-82 might have Camonna Tong ties. Whoever lives in i4-116 might have Camonna Tong ties. Judging Camonna Tong presence shouldn't be as straightforward as counting the number of Camonna Tong-owned clubs, in my opinion.

We could have one of the plantation owners be in the council hall or the upper-class club if we really want to underscore the fact that the ones controlling Andothren are the plantation owners. We could also consider having a plantation without a manor, having the owner live in Andothren instead, though this wouldn't be the thread to discuss that in.

By the way, would this be the thread to discuss whether we will have a Thieves Guild presence within Andothren?

As to how to imbed images in words: I don't know.
Post Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:11 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
immortal_pigs
Developer
15 May 2008

Location: Utrecht

1) I agree with Sloads idea for the taverns: one TG, two CT, one "unaffiliated"?
2) To me extorting and cheating & bilking seemed the same type of thing, but that was a mistake. Scuzi.
3) I try to read every post made, I just happen to have a different opinion for the Dwemer Ruin. My argument is that it is too proximal to the city to really still be dangerous and inhabited by baddies.
4) From what I see, having the plantation owners be the controllers of Andothren is a new idea. Is everyone on board with this?
5) I suppose we can make a TG thread elsewhere; we already have one for the MG as well.

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Post Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:41 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

1) are we talking CT controlled or CT affiliated? The upper-class club might not be controlled by the Camonna Tong, for instance, but would almost certainly be frequented by Camonna Tong members.
4) Yes. Though how much they actively control and how much the CT controls is another question.
5) That might be a good idea. Really, though, it would be more convenient to have a TG master plan to work with. Another idea would be to give the TG a lower-profile Guildhall, for example the pawnbroker: the pawnbroker and possible a 'spouse' could have leadership positions while the guild members and clients are the customers.
Post Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:01 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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