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cookie16
Developer
27 Oct 2012

Location: The Great White North

I have heard that they are one of the better aspects of the game and am wondering what your guys opinion on adding some of them?
He is a listhttp://www.imperial-library.info/books/online/by-category
Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:41 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

I've had a look and some of them are good. Not many are particularly relevant to 3rd era Morrowind though. Any specific suggestions?
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cookie16
Developer
27 Oct 2012

Location: The Great White North

I just saw it mentioned in the Skyrim mods forums and got me wondering about it. I don't read the books and lore in TES very often so I won't know what fits.

Why does it have to be relevant to the 3rd era?
TESO is like 2000 years before Morrowind, so books can end up anywhere and does it need to be about topics only mentioned in Morrowind?

I can't seem to get these links working, but this might be the best spot to start looking for bookshttp://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1494940-good-eso-lore/
Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:05 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

cookie16 wrote:
does it need to be about topics only mentioned in Morrowind?


No, but as we're making Morrowind the priority is for books that enhance player's knowledge of that setting. That can be interpreted pretty loosely but eg some guide to fighting a monster in Hammerfell isn't going to be of much interest.

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Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:51 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

cookie16 wrote:
Why does it have to be relevant to the 3rd era?
TESO is like 2000 years before Morrowind, so books can end up anywhere and does it need to be about topics only mentioned in Morrowind?


I can think of two reasons:

1. Proportion. It would look odd if Morrowind's bookshops and studies were stocked with modern books and books from 2000 years ago, with very few books spanning the large gap between.
It would be as though all of the books in China were either published recently or during the Han dynasty.
2. Significance. Books are a world-building tool rather than blocks of processed wood that fill bookshelves. If the books do not contribute to the world of Tamriel that TR is trying to represent, they don't really have a reason to be there.
For example I'd argue that the book Jorunn the Skald-King would have little significance in the context of TR, even though Jorunn was an important figure in his day and even though he played an important role in Morrowind affairs at the time.
The fact of the matter is that Jorunn appears to have very little significance in 3E 427, and that if a book were to be included about him its purpose should probably be to point out what significance he does have in regard to late third era Morrowind, rather than what significance he had in regard to early second era Morrowind.

Edit: I'd argue that the second reason trumps the first, so if there are texts in TESO that contribute to the world TR is trying to represent I'm all for adding them. Flavour text is also a legitimate way to build a world, which I suspect is largely the reason why books from Knights of the Nine are included in TR even though they have nothing to do with Morrowind province.
Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:36 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

The KOTN books have a lot to do with the Empire, which is a major player in Morrowind.
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Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:48 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
cookie16
Developer
27 Oct 2012

Location: The Great White North

I'm just going to post book that I believe will fit well in Morrowind and ones that expands on the world.

This one seems to give a theory on how the Ayleid went extint.http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Ayleid_Survivals_in_Valenwood

Small life lesson given by Almalexiahttp://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Almalexia_and_the_Mudcrab
Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:36 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
rot
Lead Developer
21 Oct 2012



cookie16 wrote:
I'm just going to post book that I believe will fit well in Morrowind and ones that expands on the world.

This one seems to give a theory on how the Ayleid went extint.http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Ayleid_Survivals_in_Valenwood

Small life lesson given by Almalexiahttp://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Almalexia_and_the_Mudcrab


Can't be bothered to read further into the first and I don't think Ayleid stuff is relevant to Morrowind; Almalexia and the Mudcrab is good tho.
Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:46 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
cookie16
Developer
27 Oct 2012

Location: The Great White North

http://www.imperial-library.info/stories/eso-book-highlights-dunmer-morrowind
Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:03 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I took a look at the linked books. My opinions:

Legend of the Ghost Snake - This one is vague enough so that we could possibly make do with it, but it would only really be worthwhile if we want to add a Mabrigash population to Deshaan and explore and expand their background lore. (The information in the book would naturally be treated as misinterpretation and misrepresentation).
I'd keep it in mind, but for now don't think think it adds anything to the project. I'm also not sure whether this kind of text would survive 2000 years.
Mottos of the Great Dunmeri Houses - This one could also work, though I'm not sure about the apparent new saint and patron of House Telvanni Vorys. I'd need to read up on him. I'd imagine the association of those saints with those Houses would not be universal among Dunmer.
Again, though, I'm not sure if this is the kind of text that would survive 2000 years, and if it did survive I'd imagine it would be unique.
The Great Houses and Their Uses - On a stylistic note, the heavy use of the word 'clout' kind of bothers me with this one. It also doesn't necessarily seem like the kind of text one would keep or reprint for 2000 years.
TESO's Deshaan also covers a lot more area than TR's. The reference to Hlaalu having "a snake's grip on Deshaan" doesn't really work too well in the context of TR.
Other than those points, though, it still works fairly well in present TR. The reference to Indoril controlling 'Stonefalls' is especially good as according to TR Lore the Indoril would have still controlled Andothren at that point. The fact that it is called Stonefalls in the text is unfortunate, of course.
A Pocket Guide to Mournhold - I doubt this one would work. Who reads 2000 year old tourist guides? The text is also rather bubbly as opposed to xenophobic, despite the fact that Dunmer authorship seems implied.
A far greater issue is that TR's Almalexia does not exist in TESO. Only Mournhold does. According to the map in UESP, Mournhold appears to be a rural hamlet in TESO. (As opposed to its appearance in Tribunal in which it is an urban hamlet). While the argument could be made that TR's Almalexia grew out of Mournhold after TESO, almost 600 years had passed since Almalexia was rebuilt by the time of ESO and it was and continued to be a major city. I don't think it would have been so slow to grow.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/kwama-mining-fun-and-profit - this text is surprisingly accurate to Morrowind's portrayal of Kwama mining, considering the fact that TESO made some changes to the Kwama. It's a good text, if not necessarily useful in TR gameplay terms, but once again I'm wondering who would read an entrepreneurial guide that is 2000 years old.

Going from those texts TESO's books do seem to be well-written, but they demonstrate rather clearly my point about books as a world-building tool. They were clearly designed around TESO, and in my opinion would seem out of place in TR, or really anywhere else.
I might try and skim the list at the Imperial library, though. As they are well-written, it would be a pity to ignore any books that could fit in TR.
Going from the above texts, it seems like a good approach to a lot of TESO books that seem worth including would be to make them unique, and possibly fragmentary.
Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:00 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
EJRS
Developer
14 Aug 2013



I must say, having read only gnomeys selection above, that I find these books disappointing. The quality of the language as well as the structure is too low, the content is very unimaginative and lacking in complexity.
To me, too much of it comes across as something written by a teenage fanboy: a fair enough first try, but try again, and again, and it might have gone somewhere.
Almalexia and the Mudcrab was quite cute, though.

Not to say that all of the books in TES3 are all that good, a few of them are actually rather embarassing, although the non-fiction books are generally good.

I'd say keep these out of TR, even disregarding the quality of them. They describe a world not quite aligning with the one described in TES3, and 2000 years is a very long lifespan for a piece of writing.

Edit: I took the time to read some of the other ESO books. Indeed, there are some pretty good ones, but the ones I found felt like they were outside of the scope of TR. They might be more of interest to the PC-people, and I imagine that the Imperial City would contain some kind of huge library containing some quite ancient tomes. Preferably fragmentary. Preferably being the subject of scholarly writings to meta things up a bit. Just sayin.
Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:29 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I'd say Almalexia and the Mudcrab is worth including. Traditional tales take a while to go out of style, especially in a land like Morrowind where traditions are maintained for centuries and the gods the stories are about used to actively take part in the land's cultural fabric.

I kind of like Brave Little Scrib too despite its sometimes childish tone. We could really use more Dunmer fables that don't involve the Tribunal.

Dwemer Dreams could work as a unique text sought after by an Imperial scholar searching dusty Dunmer archives. Perhaps we could introduce some fragmentation to it for fun.

Masterwork of the Inducer seems almost too good not to use, though it has virtually nothing to do with Morrowind.


-----

On a side not, apparently The Ruins of Kemel-Ze dates to a much earliar period than was originally thought, at least according to Bethesda Wink

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Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:40 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
cookie16
Developer
27 Oct 2012

Location: The Great White North

ESO actually only takes place around 500 years before Morrowind: Timeline

Rats edit: Here you go ; )


Last edited by cookie16 on Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:23 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
EJRS
Developer
14 Aug 2013



Cookie: [URL=This is where you enter the URL]This is where you enter the text you want to represent the link with[/url]
Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:05 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
cookie16
Developer
27 Oct 2012

Location: The Great White North

Blasphemous Revenants - Dunmer's point of view about summoning the dead.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/blasphemous-revenants

On Argonians - An outsider's observations on Argonians and the Hist.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/argonians

Vivec and Mephala
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/vivec-and-mephala

The House of Troubles - The "House of Troubles" refers to the Daedra who decided not to submit to the Tribunal, according to Temple Doctrine. This is a book about those Daedra.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/house-troubles

The Homilies of Blessed Almalexia - Some stories by Almalexia.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/homilies-blessed-almalexia
Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:08 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
rot
Lead Developer
21 Oct 2012



Most if not all of the above are actually books from Morrowind, vanilla.

... also remember Vivec And Mephala as an all-encompassing example of boring, complacent and painfully unsubtle writing that manages to be out of place every-single-where it's been placed ingame [/rant]
Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:42 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Terrifying Daedric Foe
Developer
26 Aug 2010

Location: England

cookie16 wrote:
ESO actually only takes place around 500 years before Morrowind: Timeline

Rats edit: Here you go ; )

742 years, to be precise.

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Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:03 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

cookie16 wrote:
ESO actually only takes place around 500 years before Morrowind:


Apparently 741 years, to be precise. (Edit: ninja'd by Terrifying Daedric Foe, and what's worse our calculations are a year off from each other). That's still a very long time, but I did overstate it by a factor of three.

I agree that Almalexia and the Mudcrab is worth using. Brave Little Scrib could also work, but for that one I might prefer an approach similar to Hanging Gardens: maybe a scholar, possibly from the Imperial Archaeological society, uncovers an ancient Dunmer text, but it turns out to just be a children's story.

I'd very much be for Dwemer Dreams being included in a fragmentary form, but not unique. It could also work in its complete form, but frankly I'd prefer to cut out most of its frame story.

Masterwork of the Inducer is good, but it seems more like it would be a unique or very rare text one might find in the study of an Imperial scholar near the Velothi Mountains or something. The same goes for On Argonians.

The rest are Morrowind books, as rot pointed out.

Edit: it seems I was mesmerized by Terrifying Daedric Foe's avatar while writing this post. Oops.


Last edited by Gnomey on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:23 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
cookie16
Developer
27 Oct 2012

Location: The Great White North

What should the book be about for it to be included into TR?
I get the impression that books should only be add if they add/expand upon topics related to Morrowind and it inhabits.

Sure it may not have an abundance of literature on topics that may be more relevant in other provinces or cultures, but Morrowind is a fairly accessible province allowing travelers from far and wide to visit.

The Boy Who Became a Kagouti
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Boy_Who_Became_a_Kagouti
Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:48 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
rot
Lead Developer
21 Oct 2012



cookie16 wrote:
What should the book be about for it to be included into TR?


1- The book's existence in the world must make sense
(edit: that's the books' presence, as a whole; so while being thematically fitting isn't technically a hard criterion, it wouldn't do to have a disproportionate amount of books that aren't relevant at all to the themes of tesIII)
When it feels like a very strong necessity for it to be unique and hidden, especially, it's time to do a double-take on whether it's not just being shoehorned in because of "ELDER SCROLLS" or "LORE" BS associations
2- The book's contents or the book's existence in the world must be interesting
It's something you'd want to read/discover and want the player to read/discover
3- The writing should be at least decent and believable
eg not sound like fanfiction. For the most part ESO's books seem to fall slightly short of being well-written and widely short of being believable as in-universe books
Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:29 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Terrifying Daedric Foe
Developer
26 Aug 2010

Location: England

Gnomey wrote:
cookie16 wrote:
ESO actually only takes place around 500 years before Morrowind:


Apparently 741 years, to be precise. (Edit: ninja'd by Scamp, and what's worse our calculations are a year off from each other). That's still a very long time, but I did overstate it by a factor of three.

I beg your pardon! Surprised

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Post Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:49 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
cookie16
Developer
27 Oct 2012

Location: The Great White North

Terrifying Daedric Foe wrote:
Gnomey wrote:
cookie16 wrote:
ESO actually only takes place around 500 years before Morrowind:


Apparently 741 years, to be precise. (Edit: ninja'd by Scamp, and what's worse our calculations are a year off from each other). That's still a very long time, but I did overstate it by a factor of three.

I beg your pardon! Surprised

I would take that as a complement:)
Post Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:51 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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