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Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

At the moment, most of the tasks in this section are tied up waiting for further planning and exterior work. One place where we can probably get some work done is finalizing Roa Dyr's NPCs and dialogue. Could everyone who has time take a look at the most recent M3A2 file and comment on the current state of the city? Some characteristics to look for:

1. Does the tone of the dialogue and appearance of the NPCs reflect Indoril motifs?
2. Where in the city can we implement good ideas from the Indoril planning document?
3. Does the city have an effective identity as expressed in dialogue?
4. What characters could use improvement to make them more memorable?

A few things I'd like to see done with the city:

1. Relocate the shacks so they aren't part of Roa Dyr proper. Having such a dirt-poor area tacked onto an otherwise glamorous city looks awkward and moddy.
2. Add Ashtaar's Indoril-style clothing to select NPCs once his clothing is finished and added to TR_Data.

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Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:59 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
EJRS
Developer
14 Aug 2013



First impressions and reflections:

1. Layout:
I guess it is a bit late to do any major changes here, and the layout of the city looks really well in itself, but I find that the layout tells you one story and the dialogue another. Indoril town, yet the temple, an important fixture in Indoril life, as well as the inn mentioned as being the Indoril joint-of-choice are huddled together at the very edge of town, right next to the shanties.

I really got the feeling that the Indorils were the outcasts, while various outlanders and less-affiliated dunmer were the real kings of town.

Same goes for the inn mentioned as being frequented by the dock workers and sailors: it is on the opposite side of town from the docks, logic?

2. Atmospheric detail:
Roa Dyr is mentioned to be a "prosperous river port", yet there is little evidence of any wares coming in or out of town. The only docked ship is of the very smallest variety, there is next to no dockside paraphernalia, and the only bridge connecting the island with the docks to the middle island leads you to some kind of sleepy park area, from where you have to take what feels like a back alley to reach what I take to be the square. And where are the sailors and dockhands?

3. Atmospheric dialogue:
The town needs to feel a lot more active and alive, in my opinion. Here, dialogue can do wonders. As I imagine a town of Roa Dyrs character, the population would basically be divided into three categories: 1. Indoril, 2. merchants and sailors, 3. the "common folk".
I feel that the dialogue needs to reflect the dynamic and tension between these groups as an effective way of making it feel less like borg-town, where just about everyone has the same story to tell, and more like a living place.
For example, it is pretty well established that the sailors (and also, I would guess, the traders) hang out at the Netchiman's Staff, so ask someone from this category, and that's what they'll mention, while if you ask an Indoril, and they'll talk about the Tower and Temple (also offering an opportunity to be characterfully dismissive of outsiders, since it's an "Indoril only"-place). In the same way, I feel that each group should have their preferred merchants.
Also, this should be reflected in the layout of the town, so that there is an informal division between the exciting dock-haunts and the respectable, more local Indoril side of town.

In its present shape, there is an air of white middle-class suburb about the place, very unbecoming.

I apologize if I come across as a tad merciless, but I feel that the town has a lot of potential that could rather easily be tapped.

Edit: re-reading what I just wrote, I realize this came out a bit unclear and rantish. Sorry 'bout that, in a hurry. Might return later in the day with some more clear and well-formulated ideas.
Post Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:40 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
rot
Lead Developer
21 Oct 2012



Roa Dyr's role aside from being pretty is set to be where Indoril interacts with Almas Thirr for the (late?) faction questline; notes on the characters involved can be good. (Draler Ilvi up north), Harbourmaster maybe?
Related: topic 'Almas Thirr' should be available in Roa Dyr. Other possibilities are topics 'House Hlaalu' and 'House Indoril'

The priestess being Dres-coloured seems like too big a deal to not be part of the whole town's plan (including Indoril faction questline), especially with the nearby Almas Thirr (orthodox Temple) and the close ties they're supposed to have. Is it the best place for this?

Roa Dyr has the first Morag Tong hall in the region since Almalexia.

I've just reqlised I went through the whole town without even seeing those shack parts, so they might not be such a wart, not that showing that strong contrast in wealth within "Indoril" would be bad... agree that, even if it's always on the outskirts of a town, here the Temple somehow seems more cast off on the side than usual.
Post Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:58 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Roa Dyr Master Plan

Table of Contents

A. Geographic Region
B. City Characteristics
C. History & Political Situation
D. Surrounding area
E. Population
F. Gameplay Characteristics

A. Geographic Region

Roa Dyr is nestled in a tranquil cove carved out by the currents of the Thirr River Valley, a lush region formed by the Thirr River and its network of tributaries. The majority of Morrowind's major trade goods pass through this region.

B. City Characteristics

Roa Dyr is House Indoril's only port along its side of the Thirr River Valley. It serves as a corridor for trade goods moving into central Morrowind. The riverport also acts as a local market destination for Indoril aristocrats living on nearby manor estates. The city is known for it's aesthetically pleasing canals and enchanting atmosphere.

What does Roa Dyr tell about the Indoril?

-It shows how Indoril aristocrats and merchants interact.
-It shows the contrast in wealth within House Indoril between the prosperous riverport and surrounding peasant farmsteads.
-It shows the Indoril's attempt to control trade along the Thirr.

C. History & Political Situation

The area around Roa Dyr has belonged to House Indoril since ancient times. Roa Dyr's identity as a major riverport, however, came about more recently (at least by Indoril standards). Following the destruction of their stronghold at Old Ebonheart, the Indoril were left without their traditional choke point for controlling trade at the mouth of the Thirr. Roa Dyr soon rose as a replacement port, it's proximity with Almas Thirr allowing for the quick and efficient exchange of goods between the two cities. It also signifies the hushed partnership between House Indoril and the Temple for regulating traffic on the river. At the moment, the city is part of the conflict between the Hlaalu and Indoril over who controls the Thirr River Valley.

D. Sourrounding area

Almas Thirr is a massive port city close to Roa Dyr and the only bridge crossing over the Thirr. Draler Ilvi is an Illuminated Elder of the Indoril Council, a militaristic noble who holds sovereignty over the east bank of the river valley. His estate manor is to the north of Roa Dyr. Communal farms are found all around the region. The most common dungeons are grottos, caves and ancestral tombs.

E. Population

Roa Dyr is mainly populated by Dunmer: Indoril aristocrats, merchants and a scattering of common-folk craftsmer and dockworkers. The few outlanders around are mainly the wide-eyed touristy types stopping by to see Roa Dyr's canals. Most natives in the city are religious. Matters of faith and mercantile business are often intertwined. The city-dwelling aristocrats maintain their position in society through their ancient customary rights to collect tithes from local communal peasant farms.

F. Gameplay details

Roa Dyr has many shops and inns to suit the player's needs, though most Dunmer shopkeepers are not enthusiastic about serving outlanders. One of the inns serves only Indoril House members. There's also a Morag Tong guildhall, strategically placed on the front line of a brewing House War. Fast travel options include a siltstrider and a boat servicing the northern Thirr River Valley.

----------------

Exterior changes to make:

1. Remove shacks that are on the edge of Roa Dyr. Save them for future work on the Thirr River Valley further south. Remove the Corkbulb field as well.

2. Add an additional ship to the docks, along with more crates and a dock crane to give the port a bustling feel.

3. Move the outdoor merchant stands staffed by TR_m3_Gindrala Mels and TR_m3_Raynila Indrano to the dock area.

4. Exchange the buildings containing Silvin Manor with The Tower and Temple, so that the Indoril establishment isn't kept on the outskirts of town.

Interior changes to make:

1. Having three inns seems rather overindulgent for a city of this size. It makes especially less sense given the proximity of Almas Thirr and its inns. One of them could easily be cut (I'm looking at the The Fallen Moon: an unscrupulous innkeeper bilking travelers doesn't really match the city's aesthetic tone) and replaced with something that adds a little more Indoril character to the city.

NPC changes to make:

1. The local Indoril aristocrats living in Roa Dyr need more personality (I'm particularly embarrassed by my portrayal of Tirnen Felovil as a goody two shoes "mayor"). We need to introduce some of the Indoril rigidity outlined in Sload's Indoril planning document. Perhaps the conflict could be between the ingrained wealth of old aristocratic families and the emerging wealth of merchants, who -while still identifying with conservative Dunmer culture, are not yet part of House Indoril's traditionally recognized upper class. Or is this a little too much like the themes of a Jane Austen novel?

2. Roa Dyr isn't the best place for my idea of having a Dres priest operating in Indoril lands. Almalexia is a better place to implement a theological debate between the orthodox Indoril and Daedra-loving Dres.

3. I think a cool story could be told with Terminus Atrus, the Imperial Wizard living in Roa Dyr. Despite being an upstanding citizen, most of the locals could still see him as little more than a blasphemous hedge wizard. The current rumor about a customer unleashing a Scamp in his shop could be tied to a local Indoril prig who wants to force Terminus out. For his character to work, we need a logical reason for why an outlander wizard would set up shop in an Indoril town. The current explanation that he can sell his spells without having to compete with the Mages Guild could probably work.

4. Jeanette Cobden and possibly other outlander traders should become Indoril-oriented Dunmer merchants. More NPCs in the city need to be aesthetically tied to House Indoril, even if they aren't members of the House officially.

5. My idea for Eveshi Drilor, the current harbormaster, is to make her an insufferable Indoril technocrat, who quotes obscure, overly complicated religious legal mumbo-jumbo and ritualized codes when regulating dockyard traffic. She is partly why outlander merchants have no real presence in Roa Dyr.

---------------------

Comments and further suggestions are welcomed.


Quote:
Same goes for the inn mentioned as being frequented by the dock workers and sailors: it is on the opposite side of town from the docks, logic?


To be honest, I don't see much of a problem here. Because Roa Dyr is a city of canals, one could argue its entire layout is one big dockyard -at least for smaller watercraft like gondolas.

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Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I haven't really familiarized myself with Roa Dyr yet, so for now I'll content myself with replying to the post above.
Is there a map of Roa Dyr as well as a list of interiors and their functions, or could someone perhaps already familiar with the city quickly cobble one together? I think that would serve as a useful reference for this discussion, and more specifically for me.
I'll try and familiarize myself with the city and its current dialogue either way, though, and if nobody else does I might just make the map and list myself.

Yeti wrote:
The city is known for it's aesthetically pleasing canals and enchanting atmosphere.


To outlanders, or also to Indoril? I'm starting to think that I might prefer if Indoril didn't have much of a sense of aesthetic pleasure, just of law and balance along the lines of the golden mean. Not taken too far, of course; they're not robots. It's more a matter of what they would focus on.
Indoril wouldn't build a city to look beautiful. They would build a city to follow a series of laws and guidelines only they can really follow, and it is the city's ability to match those laws and guidelines that makes it beautiful.
If an outlander were to say "what a beautiful city" to an Indoril, the Indoril might think the outlander was somewhat missing the point and try to explain why the city was beautiful, and how it suitably expresses the glory and strictures of the Tribunal and House Indoril or whatnot. And the outlander would back away.

Yeti wrote:
-It shows how Indoril aristocrats and merchants interact.


I'm not sure whether these should really be distinct groups, or treated as distinct groups, as such. Perhaps Indoril merchants aren't independent, or are not perceived as being independent, but are very much servants of the House and perhaps even specifically the local lord.
The interaction between aristocrats and merchants might be the interaction of a head and an arm, or something along those lines.

Yeti wrote:
-It shows the contrast in wealth within House Indoril between the prosperous riverport and surrounding peasant farmsteads.


Yes, but at the same time there should probably be considerable stratification within an Indoril city. (To properly discuss this I'd need to know what buildings are in Roa Dyr, though).

Yeti wrote:
One of the inns serves only Indoril House members.


I'm not really too keen on this idea. Unless it is basically a barracks intended for housing large numbers of Indoril retainers in times of urgency, I don't think it makes that much sense. From a glance at in-game dialogue, other than calling it a hostel no real reason is given for the service restriction.
What I would suggest is that service is refused to members of House Hlaalu, and maybe also outlanders not affiliated with a House and possibly members of House Telvanni. Or similarly that service is refused to outlanders as a rule unless they belong to House Indoril.
The latter would only require a small change to, I think, a single line of dialogue.
I just don't see Indoril turning away -- for example -- Redoran customers without a very good reason.

Yeti wrote:
There's also a Morag Tong guildhall, strategically placed on the front line of a brewing House War.


My only issue with this line is calling it a 'brewing' House war. Hlaalu has been gobbling up Indoril land for centuries. The House war may escalate during the questlines of those Houses, of course, but more specifically it would be escalating again, or to a new extreme. And I'd be surprised if the Morag Tong weren't kept busy throughout those centuries, whether the war was 'hot' or 'cold' at any given time.
I see the conflict between House Hlaalu and House Indoril a little like the family feud in the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

Yeti wrote:
Having three inns seems rather overindulgent for a city of this size. It makes especially less sense given the proximity of Almas Thirr and its inns. One of them could easily be cut (I'm looking at the The Fallen Moon: an unscrupulous innkeeper bilking travelers doesn't really match the city's aesthetic tone) and replaced with something that adds a little more Indoril character to the city.


Might I suggest a Cornerclub or Council Club? I also personally think that apartment buildings like the Roman insulae are a good way to handle housing for the lower class in Indoril cities, though I'm not sure whether that would work for Roa Dyr.

Yeti wrote:
Perhaps the conflict could be between the ingrained wealth of old aristocratic families and the emerging wealth of merchants, who -while still identifying with conservative Dunmer culture, are not yet part of House Indoril's traditionally recognized upper class. Or is this a little too much like the themes of a Jane Austen novel?


I don't really think the rise of the bourgeoisie fits the Indoril as a theme. I've also seen it done a lot.
If anything, the conflict might be due to the lack of strong independent merchants. Perhaps Indoril aristocrats and theologians direct trade, making it inflexible and incredibly tedious, and leading to the sort of economic shortcomings (though it's a rather odd comparison to make) that plagued historical communist countries.

Yeti wrote:
I think a cool story could be told with Terminus Atrus, the Imperial Wizard living in Roa Dyr. Despite being an upstanding citizen, most of the locals could still see him as little more than a blasphemous hedge wizard. The current rumor about a customer unleashing a Scamp in his shop could be tied to a local Indoril prig who wants to force Terminus out. For his character to work, we need a logical reason for why an outlander wizard would set up shop in an Indoril town. The current explanation that he can sell his spells without having to compete with the Mages Guild could probably work.


I don't see anything wrong with that explanation. He might also like the look of the city, and I like his comment that "it's actually been quite refreshing", which is really as good a reason to stay in a place as any.
As for the population seeing him as a blasphemous hedge wizard, I'd think the population would be pretty mixed between assuming he was like that and simply being very wary of him.
I certainly don't think he'd be treated as a member of the community, though.

Yeti wrote:
My idea for Eveshi Drilor, the current harbormaster, is to make her an insufferable Indoril technocrat, who quotes obscure, overly complicated religious legal mumbo-jumbo and ritualized codes when regulating dockyard traffic. She is partly why outlander merchants have no real presence in Roa Dyr.


I really like this idea.

But while not all service providers would be as verbose as she may end up being, I'm wondering whether that couldn't be a general approach to Indoril service providers, especially in Roa Dyr, for the reasons I mentioned above: perhaps merchants are in many ways restricted, if they want to be or not, by a variety of laws and guidelines imposed from above.
For example, Indoril aristocrats in the Thirr River Valley may have banned providing all manner of services to members of House Hlaalu, and perhaps even to non-House affiliated outlanders in general. They would have done so for fear of Hlaalu merchants undermining the local economy and gaining a foothold on the east bank of the Thirr River, but the result is basically a self-imposed sanction on various goods, such as Khajiit slaves, as well as creating a very restrictive and isolationist impression that turns away outlander merchants and investors, and generally makes life hard for Indoril service providers.
I'm not sure how that would play out in-game. Perhaps certain merchants can, through a long and tedious process, petition for papers allowing them to make dealings with outlanders, or (I'm not so much a fan of this approach, but there is precedent for it) non-Indoril players need hospitality papers to receive services. Or perhaps merchants will make exceptions to outlanders if they have a high enough disposition. Or some combination of the above.
Post Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:21 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Thanks for the timely reply, Gnomey. Your always fun to bounce ideas off of.

Gnomey wrote:
Is there a map of Roa Dyr as well as a list of interiors and their functions, or could someone perhaps already familiar with the city quickly cobble one together?


I'll see what I can do.

Gnomey wrote:
To outlanders, or also to Indoril? I'm starting to think that I might prefer if Indoril didn't have much of a sense of aesthetic pleasure, just of law and balance along the lines of the golden mean. Not taken too far, of course; they're not robots. It's more a matter of what they would focus on.
Indoril wouldn't build a city to look beautiful. They would build a city to follow a series of laws and guidelines only they can really follow, and it is the city's ability to match those laws and guidelines that makes it beautiful.
If an outlander were to say "what a beautiful city" to an Indoril, the Indoril might think the outlander was somewhat missing the point and try to explain why the city was beautiful, and how it suitably expresses the glory and strictures of the Tribunal and House Indoril or whatnot. And the outlander would back away.


I was mostly expressing how the city would appear to the player. Your interpretation of Indoril aesthetic taste is brilliant, though. This is the kind of weird stuff Roa Dyr needs to be interesting.

Gnomey wrote:
I'm not sure whether these should really be distinct groups, or treated as distinct groups, as such. Perhaps Indoril merchants aren't independent, or are not perceived as being independent, but are very much servants of the House and perhaps even specifically the local lord.
The interaction between aristocrats and merchants might be the interaction of a head and an arm, or something along those lines.


Sound good to me. This is certainly more interesting than my Jane Austen-inspired trite.

Gnomey wrote:
I'm not really too keen on this idea. Unless it is basically a barracks intended for housing large numbers of Indoril retainers in times of urgency, I don't think it makes that much sense. From a glance at in-game dialogue, other than calling it a hostel no real reason is given for the service restriction.
What I would suggest is that service is refused to members of House Hlaalu, and maybe also outlanders not affiliated with a House and possibly members of House Telvanni. Or similarly that service is refused to outlanders as a rule unless they belong to House Indoril.
The latter would only require a small change to, I think, a single line of dialogue.
I just don't see Indoril turning away -- for example -- Redoran customers without a very good reason.


I think a less complicated solution is to just make it open to everyone, while also making it clear that it's mainly a hangout for Indoril retainers and merchants. Perhaps it could be made into the Indoril Cornerclub or Council Club you mentioned.


Gnomey wrote:
But while not all service providers would be as verbose as she may end up being, I'm wondering whether that couldn't be a general approach to Indoril service providers, especially in Roa Dyr, for the reasons I mentioned above: perhaps merchants are in many ways restricted, if they want to be or not, by a variety of laws and guidelines imposed from above.


My only concern is whether this could be easily scripted. Somehow I feel after four centuries, there would already at least be a legal precedent for servicing outlander travelers, even in ostentatiously Indoril towns.

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Post Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:42 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I'm hardly going to insist on the service refusal for outlanders, as I think it would probably just be tedious in-game. I do think the service refusal for Hlaalu members makes sense, though.

Would including service refusal require scripting? I'd think it would only require a unique response or two for "Service Refusal" in the "Persuasion" dialogue tab, checking whether the player is a member of House Hlaalu, or checking whether the player is not a member of House Indoril (and maybe one or two of the other Houses), or checking whether the player has hospitality papers.
Post Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:02 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
rot
Lead Developer
21 Oct 2012



Service refusal for/except for/ factions etc is indeed trivial.

re:the idea of servicing outlanders only through certain rules- selling weapons could be conditional upon the presence of a guard, for instance. Something for flavour since there's always one, or a single-use quest hook
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Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

For livening up the harbour, maybe use these assets? I'm not sure if they're in Data currently.

The idea to place the temple more centre stage of the town seems fine by me, as long as the basic structure of the town doesn't alter (as in the islands etc.) About the park-like area in the middle part, I think that could be turned into a small market, along the lines suggested earlier.
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Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I don't think moving the Temple is worthwhile. Velothi architecture doesn't mix well with Mournhold buildings, and placing it right jab in the middle of the city would only reinforce this. Better to keep it on the outskirts. Perhaps the locals prefer holding their religious services in a quieter part of town anyway.
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Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I'd actually be for bringing the town to the temple a little. Perhaps some of the Indoril buildings from Othrensis could be moved in to replace the corkbulb fields; two or three buildings should do, though more might also be good.
I do think it would probably look better if the buildings don't crowd the temple too closely, though.
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Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Yeah, I can see that working. I'll post that list of interior descriptions you wanted later today or tomorrow, Gnomey.
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Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I know I promised this list a while ago, but I've been busy with end of semester shenanigans and handling the NPCing for Karthwasten, the 95-interior behemoth city at the heart of Skryim: Home of the Nord's second release.

Bu enough about me. Here are descriptions for all the interiors in Roa Dyr, plus a helpful map. I'll be working on a revised master plan for the city, so any timely feedback is appreciated.

Roa Dyr Interior Map

Green outline = Shop
Blue outline = Inn
Purple outline = Faction

1. Western Guard Tower
2. Harbor Storage - unoccupied
3. Harbor Offices - Needs a more immersive name. Occupants of note: Eveshi Drilor: Harbormaster Marlene: Redguard Barbarian imprisoned for brawling in the streets.
4. Truvi Simaril's House - Dunmer Acrobat
5. Jeanette Cobden: Merchant - Trader - Change to a Dunmer Trader
6. Tilmari Ovelas's House - Indoril Oathman: "Upstanding citizen with an occastional taste for adventure" Not an ideal personality for an Indoril character. Might be best to make here generic.
7. Idruvi Naryon's House - Dunmer commoner - Giving a commoner such prime real estate seems odd to me. Perhaps make this the town shipmaster's home.
8. Felovil Manor - Home to Roa Dyr's most prominent aristocratic family. Occupants of note: Tirnen Felovil: Noble. Kind of suburban in character. Needs more personality. Aaneth Felovil - His wife and a Dunmer mage. Probably not the most ideal occupation for an Indoril noblewoman.
9. Terminus Atrus: Wizard - Not a good idea putting the outlander wizard next door to an upstanding Indoril family. Exchange building with one in a different part of town.
10. Silvin Manor - Occupants of note: Meduni Silvin: Indoril spellsword Doves Silvin: Indoril apothecary (non-service). Brother and sister.
11. Gilnam Arendes: Potter - makes Culdems
12. Morag Tong Guildhall
13. Mabelien: Smith - Bosmer SMith.
14. Siln Tharoth's House - Indoril Nightblade. Change to merchant or Noble.
15 Mabelien's House - A traveling Dunmer merchant is staying with him.
16. The Fallen Moon - The Inn's kitchen is a health hazard and its owner makes his living scamming outlander travelers. I think it's pretty lame and unsuitable for an Indoril town
17. Milthulsim Rithro: Pawnbroker - Seems too big for a pawnbroker. The location would make more sense as dockworker housing. It even has it's own gondola dock.
18. Eastern Guard Tower
19. Temple
20. The Tower and Temple - Indoril-oriented hostel.
21. The Netchiman's Staff - Tavern frequented by dockworkers.

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-Head of NPCs: Skyrim: Home of the Nords
Post Fri May 09, 2014 6:51 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Thanks for compiling that list and map. First, my comments on the interiors:

Yeti wrote:
7. Idruvi Naryon's House - Dunmer commoner - Giving a commoner such prime real estate seems odd to me. Perhaps make this the town shipmaster's home.


I agree, and that seems like a good idea.

Yeti wrote:
8. Felovil Manor - Home to Roa Dyr's most prominent aristocratic family. Occupants of note: Tirnen Felovil: Noble. Kind of suburban in character. Needs more personality. Aaneth Felovil - His wife and a Dunmer mage. Probably not the most ideal occupation for an Indoril noblewoman.


Or we could run with it and portray what the Indoril idea of a respectable mage is.

Yeti wrote:
9. Terminus Atrus: Wizard - Not a good idea putting the outlander wizard next door to an upstanding Indoril family. Exchange building with one in a different part of town.


Or we could run with it and portray the tensions between an Indoril mage and an Imperial mage.

Yeti wrote:
11. Gilnam Arendes: Potter - makes Culdems


The improvised potter's wheel can be replaced by TR's model. It's a large house for a potter, though. Maybe he has some sort of odd background, like a shamed son of an Indoril noble family or something?

Yeti wrote:
14. Siln Tharoth's House - Indoril Nightblade. Change to merchant or Noble.


Maybe turn this into Mabelien's house?

Yeti wrote:
15 Mabelien's House - A traveling Dunmer merchant is staying with him.


This house is fairly large and stocked with weapons. Maybe it could belong to a former Ordinator or Indoril guard captain, or some other martial and well-to-do figure?

Yeti wrote:
16. The Fallen Moon - The Inn's kitchen is a health hazard and its owner makes his living scamming outlander travelers. I think it's pretty lame and unsuitable for an Indoril town


While an original idea, I'm not sure about using red lights to simulate a bloodstain. TR does actually have bloodstain models. The fireplace grate also caspers. Whatever is done with it, I think this interior could use some work...

Yeti wrote:
17. Milthulsim Rithro: Pawnbroker - Seems too big for a pawnbroker. The location would make more sense as dockworker housing. It even has it's own gondola dock.


I'd actually suggest a tradehouse.

Unfortunately, I think that the demographics of Roa Dyr are part of a larger Indoril problem that needs to be discussed. Like, I suspect, most Indoril cities, you have several manors, several shops, and the rare commoner house. It's an odd, top-heavy structure that either needs elaboration and justification or to be changed.

The surrounding communal farms tend to be satellites of rural estate manors. Where does that leave the urban nobility? Who are the merchants, what caste do they come from, what status do they enjoy? Should there be any commoners aside from the dock workers? What role would they have in the city?

I'll probably try and post about those questions in "House Indoril Brainstorming" soon. I'm not sure whether that really stops the above changes and current set up from being viable, though; if more MH buildings are going to be added to the outskirts, we might be able to use them to use them to amend any demographic issues. But that remains to be seen.
Post Sat May 10, 2014 2:26 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I think Roa dyr can afford being a little top-heavy in terms of demographics, seeing as there are a ton of Dunmer peasants living in the farmsteads to the south. It's primarily a gentrified market-town. A few more commoner homes could be added though.

Food for thought:

Interview with a Dunmer wrote:
Alvur Relds: By "professions," sir, I'd think we're talking about gentlemen, educated-like. Gentlemen are housemen and retainers, and brothers in the Temple. There's also tradesmen and crafters in town, just like you, and farmers out in the countryside, just like you.


Gnomey wrote:
Or we could run with it and portray what the Indoril idea of a respectable mage is.

Or we could run with it and portray the tensions between an Indoril mage and an Imperial mage.


Yeah, these could be interesting concepts to explore.

Interview with a Dunmer wrote:
Alvur Relds: Again, sir, don't think we have wizard shops on every corner, like you Westers. Of course, these days you find guilds in most of the large towns, but that's you Westers setting up in Morrowind -- not the Dunmer way. Any magic not Temple magic is thought a bit funny, at best, and black and evil at worst. All the houses have their mages, of course, and each village will have a hedgewizard or two, but not respectable-like. And conjurers and necromancers and such, well, we put them right up on poles where they belong.


Gnomey wrote:
This house is fairly large and stocked with weapons. Maybe it could belong to a former Ordinator or Indoril guard captain, or some other martial and well-to-do figure?


Retired Ordinators and guard captains have been done to death. That said, I agree the house might be a little too big for a smith.

Gnomey wrote:
I'd actually suggest a tradehouse.


We already have a trade house. That's what Jeanette Cobden's place is. I prefer some kind of lower-class housing, since we don't have much of it in the town, as you pointed out.

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-Head of NPCs: Skyrim: Home of the Nords
Post Sat May 10, 2014 2:45 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Yeti wrote:
Retired Ordinators and guard captains have been done to death.


Yeah, I though it might be.

Yeti wrote:
We already have a trade house. That's what Jeanette Cobden's place is. I prefer some kind of lower-class housing, since we don't have much of it in the town, as you pointed out.


First of all, I got really confused just now because the sign outside her shop reads "Neri Murthis: Merchant".

Second of all, when I said tradehouse I meant something rather specific. Calling it a House of Commerce might come closer; something like a factory in the pre-indusrial sense. Basically, it would be the center of Roa Dyr's export and import business, where wares are bought and sold.

So while the wares would be stored and documented at the warehouse, all of the actual commerce would be handled in the tradehouse.

Edit: I think the lower class might fit in at the temple.
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Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I guess that would make sense. Part of me can't help thinking there is an overload of services in the Roa Dyr - Almas Thirr area, but maybe the concentration is a good thing thematically for the region.
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-Head of NPCs: Skyrim: Home of the Nords
Post Sat May 10, 2014 5:47 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Roa Dyr Master Plan (Revised)

Table of Contents

A. Geographic Region
B. City Characteristics
C. History & Political Situation
D. Surrounding area
E. Population
F. Gameplay Characteristics G. Notable Characters

A. Geographic Region

Roa Dyr is nestled in a tranquil cove carved out by the currents of the Thirr River Valley, a lush region formed by the Thirr River and its network of tributaries. The majority of Morrowind's major trade goods pass through this region. Communal peasant farming serves as the main economic system of the valley’s eastern bank.

B. City Characteristics

Roa Dyr is House Indoril's only port along its side of the Thirr River Valley. It serves as a corridor for trade goods moving into central Morrowind. The riverport also acts as a local market destination for Indoril aristocrats living on nearby manor estates. It is home to a considerable Indoril merchant class, mostly made up of Kinsman.

The city is known for its aesthetically pleasing canals and enchanting atmosphere; though its Indoril citizens would scoff at outlanders describing it has such. To the Indoril, the city’s beauty is based on it’s following of the laws of aesthetic balance and Tribunal architectural parameters relating to an unfathomable golden mean. In other words, religious themes and codes are worked into the city’s architecture and design. Only the Indoril understand how.

What does Roa Dyr tell about the Indoril?

-It shows how Indoril merchants act as servants of their House and lords, which distinguishes them from independently minded merchants of House Hlaalu. Indoril merchants act as an arm of the House, while Indoril aristocrats serve as the head.

-It shows the Indoril focus on bureaucratic hierarchies and procedures, the implementation of Ordained laws in an economic setting and the ritualized nature of commercial regulation in Indoril towns.

-It shows the contrast in wealth within House Indoril, between the prosperous riverport and surrounding peasant farmsteads, and the stratification of society within the town itself.

-It shows the Indoril's attempt to control trade along the Thirr by keeping Hlaalu merchants from gaining a foothold on the Thirr’s eastern bank. The Hlaalu are seen as interlopers disrupting the natural order of things on the river, especially in regards to their desire to gain influence in Almas Thirr, a “neutral” Temple stronghold that supposedly serves as an arbiter of peace on the river.

C. History & Political Situation

The area around Roa Dyr has belonged to House Indoril since ancient times. Roa Dyr's identity as a major riverport, however, came about more recently (at least by Indoril standards). Following the destruction of their stronghold at Old Ebonheart, the Indoril were left without their traditional choke point for controlling trade at the mouth of the Thirr. Roa Dyr soon rose as a replacement port; it's proximity with Almas Thirr allowing for the quick and efficient exchange of goods between the two cities. It also signifies the hushed partnership between House Indoril and the Temple for regulating traffic on the river. At the moment, the city is part of the conflict between the Hlaalu and Indoril over who controls the Thirr River Valley.

Roa Dyr’s status as a major trade port is hindered by the lack of a truly strong independent merchant class. Indoril aristocrats and theologians direct trade in and out of the port, making conducting business extremely tedious and time-consuming. Most outlander merchants avoid the city because they are unable to navigate through the complexities of Indoril bureaucratic procedures, which are heavily ritualized. Laws and guidelines are imposed on service providers and other merchants from the powers above.

D. Surrounding area

Almas Thirr is a massive port city close to Roa Dyr and offers the only bridge crossing over the Thirr River. Draler Ilvi is an Illuminated Elder of the Indoril Council, a militaristic noble who holds sovereignty over the east bank of the Thirr River Valley. His estate manor is to the north of Roa Dyr. Communal farms are found all around the surrounding region, including farmsteads to the south and the village of Dondril to the north. The most common dungeons are grottos, caves and ancestral tombs.

E. Population

Roa Dyr is mainly populated by Dunmer: Indoril aristocrats, Indoril-associated merchants and a scattering of common-folk craftsmer and dockworkers. The few outlanders around are mainly the wide-eyed touristy types stopping by to see Roa Dyr's canals. Most natives in the city are religious. Matters of faith and mercantile business are often intertwined. The city-dwelling aristocrats maintain their position in society through their ancient customary rights to collect tithes from the local peasantry.

F. Gameplay details

Roa Dyr has many shops and inns to suit the player's needs, though most Dunmer shopkeepers are not enthusiastic about serving outlanders. The Tower and Temple Council Club is an inn that only serves outlanders belonging to House Indoril. A Morag Tong guildhall is strategically placed on the front line of a centuries-long House War. As one would obviously expect from an Indoril settlement, a Tribunal Temple is also situated in Roa Dyr. Quests are not offered from either faction location, due to their small size. Fast travel options include a boat servicing the northern Thirr River Valley and a siltstrider that provides transport to Othrensis and Almalexia to the east.

G. Notable Characters

Tirnen Felovil – A leading citizen of the city and a dutiful nobleman. He’s uncomfortable when interacting with outlanders, as he doesn’t quite know how to balance his sense of respectable conduct in their presence. He also finds foreign etiquette distasteful (he’s very much influenced by Draler Ilvi’s dissertations on love and laughter).

Aaneth Felovil – Indoril noblewoman and mage in service of House Indoril. Studied Temple magic and is a role model for how respectable Dunmer mages behave. She isn’t particularly nice and comes across as aloof.

Eveshi Drilor - The current harbormaster of Roa Dyr, she is an insufferable Indoril technocrat, who quotes obscure, overly complicated religious legal mumbo-jumbo and ritualized codes when regulating dockyard traffic. Her verbose administrating is partly why outlander merchants have no real presence in Roa Dyr.

Terminus Atrus - An Imperial Wizard living in Roa Dyr. He moved to the Indoril settlement to escape Mages Guild competition, and because he rather liked the city’s look. He sells spells and provides other magic-related services. Despite being an upstanding citizen, the locals have a mixed opinion of him. Some see him as just another blasphemous outlander hedge wizard, while others are merely wary of him.

Though he’s never been treated as a member of the community, he has only recently run into direct opposition to his presence. A customer unleashed a Scamp in his shop, and he’s looking for someone to help find out who was responsible. One of the local Indoril prigs could be trying to force him out. Or maybe they could be used as a red herring for someone else (perhaps an angry Mages Guild rival ill pleased with Terminus flaunting his independence from the Guild).

_________________
-Head of NPCs: Skyrim: Home of the Nords
Post Sat May 10, 2014 7:00 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
EJRS
Developer
14 Aug 2013



With the changes listed above, I think this can turn out great!

A humble suggestion for a slight redesign of the port area: add a TR_ex_ind_bridge04 at 71433.328, -216888.031, 246.921 (rot: about z24.4) and move the TR_ex_ind_building_06 (currently harbour storage) at 70495.414, -218363.203, 110.987 to 70413.602, -217803.719, 110.987.

This layout makes the port feel more connected to the next island, which I feel is much needed for plausibility, as well as clears up some space to add dock paraphernalia. It also looks more aestheticaly appealing, in my opinion.

Phew, a few shades less vitriolic that my previous entry.
Post Sat May 10, 2014 6:30 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Any final thoughts on this? I could potentially open Roa Dyr up for exterior revising otherwise.

Roa Dyr Exterior Changes checklist

-Remove shacks and Corkbulb field on the edge of Roa Dyr. Add smaller Indoril houses in their place. Exspand the civilised look of the rest of the town to this area.

-Add an additional ship to the docks, along with more crates, culdems and a dock crane to give the port a bustling feel.

-Move the outdoor merchant stands staffed by TR_m3_Gindrala Mels and TR_m3_Raynila Indrano to the dock area.

Will add more later.

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-Head of NPCs: Skyrim: Home of the Nords
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