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Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



This post is about the Armistice. What did the Armistice actually say?

Prior to the Armistice, there was the Empire of Tamriel (ruled by Tiber Septim) and also a place called Resdayn (ruled by the Tribunal and their Temple). An armistice is an agreement to stop fighting in which no one surrenders. So the armistice was an agreement between Septim and the Tribunal in which neither surrendered or conceded to the other. The terms by which this happened must've been something along these lines...
    -The Empire of Tamriel recognized the Tribunal and their Temple as sovereign unto themselves and not under the authority of the Emperor.

    -At the same time, the territory of Resdayn came under the sovereignty of the Kingdom of Morrowind. A king from the Raathim line was appointed and his descendents remain on the throne at the time of Morrowind. The Kingdom of Morrowind is a vassal state to the Emperor; this is consistent with the structure in many of the other provinces (Hammerfell and Skyrim in particular come to mind).

    -The Temple and kingdom are co-sovereign over the territory of Morrowind. The kingdom and the imperial apparatus which supports it enforce the Basic Laws of the Empire (don't kill, don't steal), whereas the Temple enforce traditional laws - House right, ban on profane magicks, etc. The ban on slavery is not a part of the Basic Laws and it is not enforced in Morrowind.

    -Ebonheart and Firewatch were conceded to the Empire as military installations to defend the east. Other smaller concessions for forts were made throughout Morrowind.

    -The artifacts of the Dwemer were made the personal property of the Emperor as part of the Armistice.
It seems reasonable to say that some time since then, probably late in the reign of Pelagius IV, some further agreement was reached for the "opening" of Morrowind. This would have entailed:
    -The Temple rescinded its ban on outlanders holding land other than the legion concessions. Mostly through leases from the Hlaalu Council Company, the East Empire Company (as well as possible private companies, I'm thinking particularly of Helnim here) have installed several colonies. One of these, Caldera, sits on the largest ebony lode discovered and is on land disputed between Hlaalu and Redoran.

    -This probably also meant the introduction of the guilds to Morrowind, which are allowed to enforce their monopolies except on the Temple and Houses (which are protected by the Temple's sovereignty and the Temple's enforcement of House rights).

    -The opening of Morrowind has led to the emboldening of the abolitionist movement. It has always been illegal to enslave a papered Imperial citizen; it is now illegal to move persons as commodities across provincial lines, and there is increasing pressure on the Empire in Morrowind to protect citizens from enslavement (at one point in the past, outlanders, especially betmer, were at risk being in Morrowind). Most recently, the Empire has ruled that the Inner Seas are imperial waters and therefore it is illegal to bring slaves to Vvardenfell; for this reason, slaves must be smuggled across the Inner Sea.

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Post Mon May 19, 2014 10:43 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

Good but my take on it is ever so slightly different.

-A key clause of the Armistice is that foreign trade is controlled by the Empire, while internal trade is a matter for the native authorities. This explains the dwemer artefact problem. Export of dwemer items is prohibited, but buying and selling them within Morrowind's jurisdiction is fine.

-Slavery is also a matter of internal law, so technically the import of slaves is illegal but hard to enforce. Especially in the case of Argonian raids by the Dres.

-The Imperial Legion is the only official military of Morrowind, the native armies having been officially stood down. Unofficially you have house guards, Ordinators etc who are classed as private retinues and police forces. The Imperial military is the only military, which is why they have a strong presence despite the partial autonomy of the province.

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Post Mon May 19, 2014 4:59 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

gro-Dhal wrote:
-A key clause of the Armistice is that foreign trade is controlled by the Empire, while internal trade is a matter for the native authorities. This explains the dwemer artefact problem. Export of dwemer items is prohibited, but buying and selling them within Morrowind's jurisdiction is fine.


I've mentioned this before, but I don't see any Dwemer artifact problem. On Vvardenfell it is stated that trade in Dwemer artifacts is illegal, but that that particular law is almost never enforced within Morrowind's borders. As the majority of guards are House-affiliated Dunmer, that isn't really surprising.

My impression of slavery is that it is part of the Basic Laws, but Morrowind opted out of it via the Armistice.

gro-Dhal wrote:
-The Imperial Legion is the only official military of Morrowind, the native armies having been officially stood down.


I'm divided on this one. For one thing, House armies have probably for the most part gone the way of the dodo since the First or Second council; whenever it was established that House Wars should be fought (mostly if not exclusively) through duels and through the Morag Tong.
It is quite possible, though, that that was only established very far down the timeline, possibly even via or after the Armistice. I'm a little foggy on the details, which are probably lacking anyway.
On the other hand, the guards and nobles of a House, as well as Ordinators and Buoyant Armigers, might represent Morrowind's traditional fighting force, anyway. All things considered, their number is not incomparable with the number of Imperial Legion members, especially on the mainland.

As for the rest, it sounds good to me, though I would have thought guild chapters would have already existed in Firewatch and Old Ebonheart after the Armistice.
My main concern is whether there is anything that still needs to be tacked on. One rather minor (in the grand scheme of things) point, for instance, is that the Armistice apparently banned Morag Tong writs on outlanders, or something to that effect. (Morag Tong still assassinates outlanders, but secretly).

Edit: that being said, I'm having trouble finding a source for that last line on the Morag Tong, and am guessing it was some throw-away line of Morrowind dialogue that was already inaccurate by the time the game shipped.
It would make sense for there to be some kind of provision limiting the operation of the Morag Tong against non-Dunmer, though.
Post Mon May 19, 2014 9:31 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



gro-Dhal wrote:
Good but my take on it is ever so slightly different.

-A key clause of the Armistice is that foreign trade is controlled by the Empire, while internal trade is a matter for the native authorities. This explains the dwemer artefact problem. Export of dwemer items is prohibited, but buying and selling them within Morrowind's jurisdiction is fine.

-Slavery is also a matter of internal law, so technically the import of slaves is illegal but hard to enforce. Especially in the case of Argonian raids by the Dres.

-The Imperial Legion is the only official military of Morrowind, the native armies having been officially stood down. Unofficially you have house guards, Ordinators etc who are classed as private retinues and police forces. The Imperial military is the only military, which is why they have a strong presence despite the partial autonomy of the province.
I don't like these. The idea that the Empire "controls foreign trade" seems very broad and not thought out. I'm pretty sure there are quotes that are clear - Dwemer artifacts are the personal property of the Emperor. This was because of Numidium (which is also why its mentioned at all); this law is just not enforced. I don't think the "internal" vs "external" divide is good in general and was trying to move toward a more nuanced explanation than that. Also I don't think Morrowind had any organized armies ever, they have house guards.
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Post Tue May 20, 2014 3:07 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Infragris
Developer
10 Mar 2013



The idea that the Empire controls all foreign trade is a little problematic, especially when you consider the Hlaalu. At P:C, there are plans to have Hlaalu-affiliated parties involved in trade in the Cheydinhall region and along the Blue Road.

More generally, it makes little for the Empire's control over all foreign trade be enforced by a document that supposedly guarantees the Dunmer's special privileges, when we see no specific limits on trade between other provinces.
Post Sat May 24, 2014 12:05 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Tiber's Stone
Member
24 Jul 2014

Location: Mexico and USA

A couple things that (I think) haven't been mentioned yet:

(1) Trade:

Saying that the Empire is in control of all foreign trade, but that the Hlaalu do a lot of trade between provinces isn't inconsistent. The Empire controls all trade with parties outside the borders of the Empire (e.g., with the Akaviri), while people or factions within the Empire can trade with others inside the Empire (e.g., House Hlaalu can trade with someone in Skyrim). The Empire could also, if it wanted, extend permission to people or parties within the Empire to trade outside of it. This is basically how it works with autonomous regions within countries today.

Obviously the EEC's monopoly is a separate matter, but that aside, it's not inconsistent.

(2) Regarding Imperial Titles:

In the time of the Roman Republic, provincial governors were either known as propraetors or proconsuls. Propraetors were usually assigned to more peaceful provinces (not on the borders or without a high risk of revolt), while proconsuls were usually assigned to more difficult provinces. Proconsuls were also the commanders of the legions stationed within their domain. This gave them a great degree of power (think Julius Caesar in Gaul, or Pompey the Great in Asia).

In Imperial times, Emperor Augustus changed the system somewhat. Some provinces were directly governed by the emperor through a legate, who acted basically as a proconsul did in Republic times. These so called "imperial" provinces were usually troubled/boarder provinces and where most legions were stationed. In all the other provinces, the Senate continued appointing governors who usually had no/few legions to command and acted more as propraetors did in Republic times.

In short, governor was just a generic name applied to proconsuls and propraetors, and in troubled/border provinces the governor (proconsul) was also the head of the legion.

I don't know if there's any interest in applying these "rules", so to speak, here. If you did though, the proposed Governor, Proconsul, and head of Legion would all be the same person. There could then be another top character, a civilian, who could be the Emperor's adviser to the King.

Just some thoughts I wanted to throw out Smile

EDIT: Having the chief political and military roles rolled into one could also make a potential Legion questline more dynamic by providing the opportunity to explore politics/governing and not just the military.
Post Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:32 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

1. I think that distinction is meaningless in the context of Morrowind, given the lack of trade partners outside of the Empire.

Given Akavir's air of mystery, Uriel V's invasion being the only real window we have as to how it looks like (and a very unreliable one at that), I'd assume that the Empire does not trade with Akavir, or at least not directly. (The text mentions the Akaviri potentates, but they lived even longer ago, and their insights were apparently unreliable even when they were alive). The Empire may or may not trade with Pyandonea to the south; what is known is that Maormer are traditional enemies of the Altmer. The text seems to indicate that there is no contact between the Empire and Maormer. Atmora appears to lack people to trade with.
That leaves only Yokuda as a major continent, or rather its ruins. Trade is noted to occur between Tamriel and the remaining Yokudans, but Yokuda is on the other side of the continent, so this has little bearing on Morrowind.
As such, the only viable trade partners for Morrowind would be smaller unmentioned islands and archipelagos that may or may not exist and are apparently not considered worth mentioning either way, and as such, if some did exist, would probably yield too little profit to be considered significant.

What I find more likely is that the Empire controls inter-provincial trade, but still allows Hlaalu to trade outside of Morrowind's borders. (As such, it is not a right of House Hlaalu to be able to trade beyond its borders, but an indulgence on the side of the Empire). Alternatively, House Hlaalu may be allowed to trade with other provinces as long as it pays a fee to the Empire, or House Hlaalu may simply be an exception to the rule.
Hlaalu, given its partnership with the Empire, is likely to have cut one or the other deal anyway, while Dres, the only other noted trade power, would probably care little about the Armistice. According to Sload's documents, most inter-provincial trade was traditionally done through House Hlaalu anyway. The stipulation that the Empire controls inter-provincial trade was probably more of a formality than anything else.

2. For the purposes of Tamriel Rebuilt, I think it would probably be better to keep those three positions distinct to outline the different factions within the Empire and, by extension, the divisions within the Empire: the head of the Legion protects the legion's interests, the Proconsul protects the Emperor's interests, and the governor doesn't exist. (Refer to this thread; the king and dukes of Morrowind already occupy the position a governor would have had in the power structure).
Morrowind doesn't really resemble any Roman province I know of anyway, being a semi-autonomous state with its own governments. Note my use of plural. As such, in this case, I think there would be little point in applying the historic Roman power structure in a context the Romans would no doubt have found wholly unfamiliar.
Post Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:33 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Infragris
Developer
10 Mar 2013



How exactly does House Hlaalu operate outside of Morrowind anyway? I don't suppose it can legally function as a political party outside of the Morrowind context. We know that there is conflict surrounding Dunmeri interventions in Cheydinhal, but is this the work of House officials, affiliates or exiles/refugees?
Post Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:47 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

On various levels, probably. The easiest answer, though, is through the House Hlaalu Company; from my understanding House Hlaalu is simply a broader political structure erected around what is really just a corporation, and there is no reason to believe that the corporation, as opposed to the House, is limited by provincial borders.

Another legitimate answer would be that Hlaalu beyond Morrowind operates through influential House members. This is probably equally true; to people beyond Morrowind Hlaalu councilmen are probably vaguely recognized as nobles of some sort. It sort of makes me think of the early kings of Brandenburg, who were prince-electors of the Holy Roman Empire, but kings in Prussia (which, at the time, was outside of the Holy Roman Empire). Andel Indarys was probably a councilman in Morrowind, but a count in Cyrodiil. King Hlaalu Helseth and family provides another obvious example.

A third and also legitimate answer would be that House Hlaalu, of all Houses, would probably operate beyond its jurisdiction. All sorts of people outside of Morrowind who are not technically members of House Hlaalu may still be loyal to the House, or be in the House's payroll, or might be blackmailed into working for House Hlaalu, etc. This would probably be especially true in High Rock, of course.
Post Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:51 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

Infragris wrote:
How exactly does House Hlaalu operate outside of Morrowind anyway? I don't suppose it can legally function as a political party outside of the Morrowind context. We know that there is conflict surrounding Dunmeri interventions in Cheydinhal, but is this the work of House officials, affiliates or exiles/refugees?


A good example would be Andel Indarys in Cheydinhal, who is affiliated with the Hlaalu and got his position as count through the influence of Helseth and/or Barenziah.

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Post Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:57 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



This may very well be the most incremental of contributions, but I was thinking about the in-game ranks for the Imperial Navy and came up with these:



LEGION - NAVY

1. Recruit - Deckhand
2. Spearman - Oarsman
3. Trooper - Mariner
4. Agent - Boatswain
5. Champion - Captain
6. Knight Errant - Knight Argonaut
7. Knight Bachelor - Knight Commodore
8. Knight Protector - Knight Navarch
9. Knight of the Garland - Knight of the Seadrake
10. Knight of the Imperial Dragon - Admiral of the East Fleet


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Post Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:13 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

As discussed in the Skype meeting, this old graph still works pretty well for the Empire's government structure in Morrowind:



With one change: 'Governor' should be replaced with 'King'.

As an aside, I recalled during the Skype meeting that Caldera has a Governor's Hall. This could require further investigation. A quick glance in the CS seems to suggest that 'governor' as used in Morrowind is actually a title used by Hlaalu mayors, as Odral Helvi is a member of House Hlaalu and Avon Oran is also called a governor. Odral Helvi apparently also has the title of 'town reeve of Caldera', which I assume to be the Imperial title and which we could perhaps make use of.

For the most part, I would assume, the Imperial position of 'governor' is a generic title awarded to Imperial citizens who are put in charge of a (generally newly acquired) territory. These appointed individuals eventually tend to be replaced by a more permanent position, often a hereditary one. Morrowind may have had a governor before, but he was replaced by the king and dukes of Morrowind. (Going by The Real Barenziah, it seems like quite a few years passed between the Armistice and Barenziah becoming queen).
Post Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:03 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Concerning faction relationships, or NPC reactions towards members of other factions.

In another thread I started drawing a table to determine faction relationships with other factions, which has changed a few times since the first sketch. The table shows NPC reactions towards members of different factions. The table should be read by finding the source faction on the left hand column, and matching it with a faction from the top row. See the table in the spoiler below.
Gnomey wrote:
First of all, in those graphs, I think the vertical columns are really the most important. They show how the opinions of members of factions change upon the player joining a certain faction.
Always remember that faction relations are inherently player-centric. The player will probably never join Her Hands, for instance, so figuring out what other factions would think of Her Hands would mostly be a waste of time. Figuring out what Her Hands thinks (if anything) of other factions is, however, very important.
Truth be told, I think it might be more reasonable to just figure out the vertical columns in the individual faction threads. This would split the task into bite-sized portions, allowing for proper discussion, and it would be rather easy to then go through the faction threads and gather the results.

Per Gnomey’s advice I am now splitting this up through the faction threads. Please discuss in this thread the reactions of other factions towards Empire factions to keep things organised.



I thought it probably better to handle all Empire factions in a single thread. Imo, the Empire factions are represented quite well in the table. Only the East Empire Company and the Imperial Knights still seem rather vague, but please release your thoughts on any of it.
Then there is the Imperial Archaeological Society. I read about them in a post dating 2005. Are they still part of TR?
Post Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:43 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I'm not sure which factions in particular should be discussed here and which should get their own threads eventually. (I might set up threads for various factions like the Blades if only to make it easier to track discussion of them, as they currently tend to pop up in various unrelated threads).

The factions I think should certainly be discussed here:

Imperial Legion
Imperial Navy
Census and Excise Office (at least as far as I'm concerned)

The Imperial Knights were not used in Morrowind, and I think that was intentional. To me, it appears they were merged with the Imperial Legion faction. I assume the Legion faction was initially intended to be fully military focused, (perhaps with higher ranks along the lines of 'Commander' and 'General'), and that the Knights were a separate faction that the player might be able to join after reaching a certain rank.
Either because that was deemed too clunky or just in general due to cutting down content (like General Darius' quest in which the player is supposed to retrieve Annumidium plans), Bethesda decided to merge the two factions.
While some ideas have been thrown around for the Imperial Knights, I'm still of the opinion that they are superfluous.

The factions I specifically think should not be discussed here are:

Blades
East Empire Company
Imperial Archaeological Society

Thanks for making these posts, by the way.
Post Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:02 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I wanted to make a few quick points about the Empire and its associated factions:

First of all, are we actually keeping branch divisions for Imperial factions? As I certainly think we should. More specifically, I think having different faction branches conforming more or less to Morrowind's administrative districts would be worthwhile for the Imperial Legion, Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, perhaps the Imperial Cult and perhaps the IAS. (And, at least on paper, Census and Excise and the Imperial Coastguard, which would be under purview of the various dukes).

Second of all, I recently remembered that the Imperial Coastguard exists. They're not terribly important, for the most part, but are worth keeping in mind none-the-less, especially as we're currently tackling the southern bank of the Inner Sea.

Third of all, as discussed in the Morag Tong thread, I think a clause should be added to the Armistice that non-Dunmer are forbidden to hire or be marked by the Morag Tong. Imperial Guards should probably not recognize any writs on outlanders. Those writs might, however, exist, and other guards might respect them anyway for reasons that should be obvious.
Post Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:46 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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