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daedren
Developer
25 Nov 2006

Location: "City of the Strong Shield", Resdayn

Gnomey wrote:
If the DB contractor was the betrothed, I don't think the player would necessarily need to murder him or her at the end, though that would certainly be one option. Perhaps the player can sic the Morag Tong on his betrothed, perhaps the player can fight his betrothed in a duel in which the betrothed might send a champion to fight instead, or perhaps the player can have a chat and reach some sort of uncomfortable understanding. The marriage is political, after all. Having it based upon an ugly truth could serve to make it more interesting.
And in that vein, I don't think leaving the player married is any problem at all. It is a political marriage. The player may never actually speak to his partner, depending on what an Indoril wedding ceremony entails. The player might never even see the partner unless he goes out of his way to do so.


Reflecting upon Gnomey's post:I was thinking more about the 'trial' being handled in a private court. The player would preside as the Grand Ascendant. There, he could have the option to order his betrothed's execution (with the options of either fighting himself or not, like Gnomey said) or get to an agreement.

The most important aspect here would be the trial per se: the decision about how to enforce the law. Because, afterall, what the player's betrothed plans is betrayal, and cannot be tolerated.


Gnomey wrote:
I do think the way the player could get into Sandil's good graces would be by saving his life, but that could literally involve the player beating back an assassin mid fed-ex quest.


I personally don't like this. Why does the player need to save Sandil's life in order to get into his good graces? That would somehow belittle the player's betrothed view of Sandil as too tolerant to outlanders (in general), as having is life saved is too extreme a situation to actually matter if the player is an outlander or not. If the player got into Sandil's good graces only in a matter of unveyling some plot concerning money, goods, whatever in that line, we would convey Sandil's character as being more open in a bad Indoril sense (it reminds me of Telvanni master Aryon and his love for Imperial things, concerning the spirit behind this inclination, which strays from the other House members in general).

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Post Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:09 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

daedren wrote:
(it reminds me of Telvanni master Aryon and his love for Imperial things, concerning the spirit behind this inclination, which strays from the other House members in general).


Aryon's interest for Imperial things isn't what set him apart from other councilors. His interest was very much in the spirit of House Telvanni, to the point of having an Imperial fort built just to twist it with Telvanni roots, leading to the eventual deaths of its builders, and imprisoning an Imperial to put on display in a museum. What set him apart was that he was very proactive and progressive, which aren't exclusively Imperial traits; just very a-typical for House Telvanni.

As for the trial, that would indeed be a very different way of handling the question, though until we have an idea of what Indoril trials look like we won't really be able to discuss it in detail.

I do see your point concerning getting into Sandil's good graces, but even if the player saved Sandil's life, he is still an outlander, so I think having him join the ranks of Indoril would be outrageous either way. I'm also not sure whether Sandil needs to be so strongly un-Indoril to perform his role. Similarly, I'm not sure whether the betrothed needs to have ordered the assassination due to being conservative. Maybe the betrothed ordered the assassination due to the perceived slight of being married to an outlander. Maybe the betrothed did it due to some other offense, perceived or real. Maybe a specific reason is never given. I don't consider that point too important, personally.
Post Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:45 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bero
Reviewer
26 Sep 2007

Location: Slovakia

How about you get chance to exile your betrothed in trial or secretly set her/him free. Nerevarine wont settle and his betrothed can survive. I always hated when you have to kill friend who betrays you.
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Post Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:50 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
daedren
Developer
25 Nov 2006

Location: "City of the Strong Shield", Resdayn

Gnomey wrote:
Snip


Hum, I agree. I think you're right. And the reason behind the conspiracy doesn't need to be explained in too much detail, indeed. Maybe that gray-area of the character's main motive might be good.

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-- The Elder Scrolls will become even better with Tamriel Rebuilt.

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Post Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:56 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



I don't think we need to be portraying the Indoril as so intensely xenophobic that one would be seen as crazy or evil to sponsor an outlander joining the house. Outlanders don't join the house; they don't like the Armistice; but that doesn't mean they think all outlanders are literally the devil. Most racists actually don't think all black people should die or whatever, they just are so surprised when they meet a black person who is "articulate."

I think the actual killer should be someone who has been a part of the House Indoril plot of course, but I don't think the betrothed works. The marriage does happen and that character should become a part of the questline - it's really hard to make that work if they hate the main character so much they kill the patriarch of their personal family for marrying them to the player. Having it be Ilvi or a character like Ilvi makes a lot more narrative sense. Actually, I would say it definitely should be Ilvi or Ilvi's Seneschal of the House, to knock someone out of the way of the player's ascent.

Building on the outline posted before:

Quest 1
Questgiver: The hireling manager at the Serene Assembly
Must introduce: Majordomo of the Grand Ascendant's Cloister

I've added this quest so the player doesn't walk in off the street and become a personal assistant to the second highest ranking Indoril. This quest should somehow emphasize the Grand Ascendant's greatness and prestige and inform the player that he is "ill."

Quest 2-6
Questgiver: Indoril Alveth Sandil
Must introduce: Several characters, including several of the Illuminated Elders such as Indoril Draler Ilvi

After success in quest 1, the player will be appointed courier for Indoril Alveth Sandil, the Seneschal of the House. This five quest arc should develop a story about the Indoril's relationship with the Hlaalu - the gist being that it is very bad and not getting any better. There should be a question sort of running throughout it "why won't Indoril Neril Dorom get involved?" After Quest 3, Alveth Sandil recognizes the player as a very valuable asset and a dedicated servant of House Indoril for something the player did. After Quest 6, Alveth Sandil, offers to marry the player to a member of his family so that they can join House Indoril, because they are such an awesome and great person.

Quest 7 - First Rite: The Oath of Faith and Fealty

This quest is the first rite, by which the player is made an Oathman to House Indoril. An Oathman has sworn an Oath to serve the House and is in the process of initiation; if the player breaks with the House after this quest is completed, Redoran and Dres will not have them.

The player is sent, with a letter of Sandil's approval, to an Indoril noble in Necrom with a fancy title I haven't come up with. Their job is to administer to Oath along with a priest of the Temple at the High Fane of the Ancestors. Normally this is a rote job, as any child of an Indoril who wishes to swear the Oath can do it.

Somehow, this quest has to involve a game element other than talking to people. I suggest one of these two paths to introduce that: a) before taking the oath everyone just has to do some quest action like visiting a shrine full of monsters or whatever or b) I think this might be better, the noble in Necrom is dubious of Sandil's approval (*"From the Seneschal? where is the Grand Ascendant's seal?") and demands the player prove their loyalty by completing some quest.

Once the player has done all the prerequisites, they memorize the right Dunmer phrase to click on and say at the ceremony and then they perform the ceremony at the Ancestor's Fane in front of this character and a Temple priest and they are now Oathman.

Quest 8 - Second Rite: ???

This quest is the rite to become a Kinsman. It involves some action; this is why I think its better if the first rite doesn't, its not like all the rites should require you to kill a dreugh. This one somehow proves you are a cool shit worthy to call yourself Kin to Nerevar and fit to marry a Sandil.

Maybe: after completing this quest, the player's name is changed to be prefixed with "Indoril "?

Quest 9 - Bathe with your father-in-law

The player is instructed to meet with Indoril Alveth Sandil at Dreynim Spa, a ritual bathing the night before the wedding. During the bathing , Sandil confesses a secret truth to the player: Neril Dorom is dead. Sandil, the Alma Rula, and Dorom's majordomo have been hiding that fact from the rest of the Indoril to prevent in-fighting. Sandil is putting a lot of the trust in the player.

Quest 10 - Third Rite: Marriage

The marriage happens the day after the bathing. If the player doesn't show up, they broke their oath and are expelled from House Indoril. There is a cinematic marriage sequence at the Cathedral of the Alma Rula, then right after its done an assassin of the Dark Brotherhood assassinated Alveth Sandil. GASP! This wasn't even sanctioned by the Morag Tong! Killing in the Cathedral of the Alma Rula? How dastardly! On the body of one of the assassins is evidence that the assassination was hired by House Hlaalu.

Indoril Draler Ilvi demands a meeting of the Serene Assembly to declare a House War. It is discovered that Neril Dorom is dead. Everything goes to shit, curtains draw, Act II will begin after the intermission.

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Post Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:41 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Sload wrote:
I think the actual killer should be someone who has been a part of the House Indoril plot of course, but I don't think the betrothed works. The marriage does happen and that character should become a part of the questline - it's really hard to make that work if they hate the main character so much they kill the patriarch of their personal family for marrying them to the player.


Well, rather than despising the player on a personal level, the betrothed might originally view the betrothal itself as a slight, without knowing the player personally. But I agree that, even if it could be made to work, it would be difficult.

I do think the idea of Ilvi or someone close to Ilvi would make more narrative sense, but on the other hand I do think that a certain amount of skill is required in the presentation to not make it seem too convenient. (Basically it shouldn't seem like a deus ex machina that clears the way to the top). It's probably the more workable solution, though, either way.

Edit: I like you quest outline so far, by the way, though I do think the question of what the player would do in the seventh quest requires more thought.
Post Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:57 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



Gnomey wrote:
I do think the idea of Ilvi or someone close to Ilvi would make more narrative sense, but on the other hand I do think that a certain amount of skill is required in the presentation to not make it seem too convenient. (Basically it shouldn't seem like a deus ex machina that clears the way to the top). It's probably the more workable solution, though, either way.


I think we could do with a #2 for Ilvi, his majordomo, who did it. He would be the Seneschal by the time it comes out in the quest (with Ilvi as Grand Ascendant).

I think Ilvi should have some sort of character flaw that appears throughout the quest line, a sort of blindness, right? And the series of events at the end, which shouldn't be as simple as "whelp, it turns out this guy was shitty!" could be that this guy becomes an enemy, you know, then later Ilvi resigns of his own volition beccause he sees he's doing a bad job, and that's what paves the way for the player's ascent.

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Post Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:32 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

If the subordinate arranged for the assassination right under Ilvi's nose, that would probably in-and-of-itself result in a loss of face for Ilvi, and compounded with his other shortcomings could fairly naturally induce him to hand over the reins.
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Ironed Maidens
Developer
23 Feb 2008



What about if the player is already named Nerevarine by Vivec?
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Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I like the sound of this twist and the person behind the conspiracy. I also like having Ilvi give up the leadership position. It strikes me as more in tone with House Indoril than simply killing him.
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Opiece
Member
17 Jul 2014

Location: Omelette du fromage

I'd have a few comments on Sload's notes for the House:

- Didn't the Indoril house exist before the proclamation of the Tribunal, with Nerevar at its head for some time? The Indoril house might have changed to become really close of the Tribunal, but they can't have been founded at that time.

- I think it would be interesting if the House consciously decided not to go on Vvardenfell: after all, they remain the legitimate rulers of Morrowind, and Vvardenfell is already under their moral control, with the other houses effectively controlling the place in stead of the Indoril. Moreover, they have always ruled on the same lands, and they see no need to change that. It's only recently that the Hlaalu have been taking their lands, and should not be taken as a threat by the whole house (except for Ilvi, of course)

- The idea of house wars doesn't fit with my vision of House Indoril. It seems to me that while the Redoran thrive in wartime, so should the Indoril in peacetime. They are born rulers, and up to now they have been rather successful in their governance, keeping Morrowind out of any major war. Moreover, in their own ideals, House Indoril is not a house per se, but the ruling class above all the other houses. Starting a house war would be acknowledging that they're on the same level as the other houses. That would be acceptable further in the Indoril main questline with Ilvi's rise (= the only lucid Indoril noble, since he's been fighting the Hlaalu for long), as a sign of the House acknowledging the current state of decay (and as foreshadowing of their impeding doom).

- Finally, I really like the concept of Determined Laws. I think that could help characterise the Indoril, and the type of conservatism that befits them in my vision. At the beginning of the game, they refuse to acknowledge any sort of decay: their current issues, if they were to even be recognised as "issues", are just a small crisis. It is in the Indoril nature to rule, and because that is a determined law, the Indoril don't expect that to ever change. Like the phoenix, if they were to "die", it would only be rise again, stronger and harder. The exception would obviously be Ilvi, who faces the glooming threat of the Hlaalu.



Concerning the main questline, having Ilvi be the guy behind the assassination attempt would make the most sense to me. He's been trying for years to change the Indoril mindset, and to warn them against the Hlaalu threat. At the start of the game, he would be extremely isolated; every other Indoril noble would be over confident about the survival of the House. But with the assassination attempt at the wedding, there is actual proof that the Hlaalu are dangerous, and ready to directly attack the nobles themselves. With the Indoril waking up from their dream and realising the current state of their rule, Ilvi seems a natural leader: he's been fighting the Hlaalu for long, he's got willstrength and he's prepared. All that would fit in too nicely without having him involved in the coup.
I believe it could be great if the player plotted with a member of Ilvi's family to destitute him, with the relative in question being shocked by Ilvi's wrongdoing and ready to take his place as an elder. It would fit in with the unable-to-change vibe of the Indoril structure, and give a bittersweet ending: the promotion of the player to Grand Ascendant would officially announce the downfall of the House, as he'd have killed the only way to effectively fight off the Hlaalu.
Post Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:37 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
hollowtreestump
Member
13 Aug 2014



It doesn't really seem Indoril to be willing to break the common conduct and rely on someone like the DB, I mean, aren't the Indoril the ones who care the most about the law? Using the DB would really seem off for a guy who was heavily anti Hlaalu.

I'd suggest something along the lines of this instead:

During the wedding (after the ceremony) Ilvi (or someone associated with Ilvis point of view) challenges Sandal to a duel, and kills him.

Ilvi calls for a meeting of the Illuminated Elders of House Indoril to declare a House War against Hlaalu for some lesser reason, the Elders are fairly gridlocked on the matter. The meeting could be a rather big quest, with the player helping either Ilvi or an anti-war Indoril sway votes, either way, eventually the news gets out that the Grand Ascendent is dead. Ilvi manipulates the other Elders, the anti-war group shatters due to the news, and Ilvi manages to get the war declared, and attain the rank of Grand Ascendent.

Obviously a few Elders are still against the war, and Ilvi, the player could then either serve one of them or Ilvi directly, either way the player mainly deals with the war.

The war goes well, but nonetheless several Indoril feel that it is destroying the house culture. If the player is supporting Ilvi, Ilvi attempts a big attack on Hlaalu, and despite it being a victory, is killed in the process. If the player is against Ilvi, the anti-war faction manages to grow large and influential enough to force Ilvi to sign a treaty and resign.
Post Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:59 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Opiece
Member
17 Jul 2014

Location: Omelette du fromage

hollowtreestump wrote:
It doesn't really seem Indoril to be willing to break the common conduct and rely on someone like the DB, I mean, aren't the Indoril the ones who care the most about the law? Using the DB would really seem off for a guy who was heavily anti Hlaalu.


But then, Ilvi isn't exactly the classic Indoril. I think we should have a clear divide between Ilvi and his supporters (within the Thirr River Valley, and maybe the Mephalaian moutains, as they'd have to deal with another type of border conflict?), and the classic Indoril nobles (Alt Orethan, Lan Orethan and Inlet Bog). On one hand, you have a pragmatic and militaristic side, more concerned by the House's survival to preserve their rule over Morrowind. On the other hand, you have the classic Indoril side, ruling and living like it's always been, which does not consider the Hlaalu as a threat but as an "incovenience" that will spontaneously disappears, because that's the way the Determined Laws work.
It could generally be compared to the current European politics. The moderate, governing parties are more or less responsible for the crisis, and believe that it'll eventually disappear, acting as if it was just a temporary annoyance. On the other hand, you have populist and extremist parties rising, advocating radical solutions to prevent what they consider to be Europe's impending doom. These parties threaten and question the values of the moderate parties, as well as their actions and "irresponsibility" in the last few years or so.
One of these radical solutions would be to hire a DB assassin, as Ilvi sees it as the only way to make the House react to the current situation and follow him in his House war.

And then, it might show the extent of Ilvi's madness in Indoril eyes, as he'd be ready to break Ordinated Laws in order to prevent a change of the Determined Laws, something which most Indoril would regard as outrageous and unnecessary.


hollowtreestump wrote:
Ilvi calls for a meeting of the Illuminated Elders of House Indoril to declare a House War against Hlaalu for some lesser reason, the Elders are fairly gridlocked on the matter. The meeting could be a rather big quest, with the player helping either Ilvi or an anti-war Indoril sway votes, either way, eventually the news gets out that the Grand Ascendent is dead. Ilvi manipulates the other Elders, the anti-war group shatters due to the news, and Ilvi manages to get the war declared, and attain the rank of Grand Ascendent.


But the point of the assassination attempt would be to have a clear proof of the Hlaalu threat, something that Indoril nobles would consider irrelevant. Even if Ilvi becomes Grand Ascendant after the announcement of the former Grand Ascendant's death, he probably wouldn't have significant support to declare a House War against the Hlaalu, which is a rather extreme decision. House Hlaalu is considered as an expanding vassal, not a glooming danger. And if the Indoril that committed suicide during the Armistice were the ones most concerned with Imperial and Hlaalu empowerment, the current Indoril lords should be the descendants of the nobles who dismissed the event's importance. Again, I'd like the Indoril to do everything in order to avoid House War, as I believe they are peacetime rulers, just like the Redoran are wartime warriors.
Post Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:37 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
ihavefivehat
Member
20 Oct 2014



I just spent some time reading through this and a few other threads concerning Indoril. Here are some miscellaneous ideas which occurred to me.

I like that charitable giving is a prominent part of Indoril society. It shows that there is something genuinely admirable about their traditions, and allows the player to sympathize with their insistence on preserving them. However, maybe some nobles lose sight of the original intent behind this practice, and instead use generous giving to the poor as a way of showing off their wealth. Perhaps one of the early quests could involve the player helping a noble outdo a rival in terms of caring for the poor. This could become a sort of goofy thing where a single hapless vagrant gets caught in a charitable arms race between two nobles and ends up being pampered to a ridiculous degree.

I also came up with the idea that maybe as a coming-of-age ritual, Indoril young men are expected to spend some time living the life of an ascetic at a monastery. This is ideally a time for meditation; to gain a deeper understanding of their religion and reflect on their duty as a member of the ruling class. However, it would be telling if some of these monasteries ended up as a sort of luxury retreats, with the monks being forced to pamper the spoiled young nobles.

In reference to slavery, I think the Indoril should consider their treatment of slaves to be civilized and humane. They pride themselves on treating their slaves relatively well, especially compared to the Dres or Hlaalu. Slaves who are household servants might become trusted members of the family, and maybe there is a tradition of nobles freeing dutiful slaves on their death beds. However, this would only apply to human and elven slaves. Betmer would still be thought of as cattle and be treated deplorably.
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klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

After having read a question about the topic names for Indoril and Dres quests in the questions thread, I would like to propose to call Indoril quests 'devoirs' which is derived from the Latin word 'debere' (to owe) and can be translated to 'something which one must do' or 'debt'. I think this fits well with the Indoril sense of superiority and though it may not be a common word for religious duties, it does sound more divine than a simple 'duty' or 'task'.

For Dres I would like to propose 'affairs' as this word expresses equality while still meaning assignment, but I'm in the wrong thread for that right now!
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Ironed Maidens
Developer
23 Feb 2008



For the Dres work word, I can think of a few.

Campaign - "Yes, %PCRank, you must campaign for House Dres more before you can be advanced any further."

Subjugation - "Welcome into House Dres, %PCName. You may sleep in any of the public beds here at our Househall and use any of our services. There is much subjugation going on and we need your help."

Junctures - "Come see me for more junctures, %PCRank."

One more idea I have is to have a completely new word made up from Old Ehlnofex for the work word. The Dres are the most old-school of the houses, and I can imagine they would use a word designed specifically to mean paying a debt to the house or possibly showing glory to the house.

My purposed work word in this case would be

Shanthil - "%PCRace, you must show more dedication to the shanthil."

I made it up from a rough mix of a 'Retainer' Old Ehlnofex word, and one meaning 'Way of'. Not sure how well it would fit House Dres (AT LEAST THAT WORD IN PARTICULAR) but I do think a new word can be made up to indicate the transgression from the other Houses, and it would help solidify the Dres' persistence to remain like a traditional House.
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Terrifying Daedric Foe
Developer
26 Aug 2010

Location: England

My concern with using 'devoirs' is that it's the French word for homework and, to me at least, that makes it immersion-breaking.
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timmyr0x0r
Member
29 Dec 2014



Terrifying Daedric Foe wrote:
My concern with using 'devoirs' is that it's the French word for homework and, to me at least, that makes it immersion-breaking.


Well, as a French myself, I see your point, but then "devoirs" also means "duties" in French. Might be too similar to vanilla guild dialogue if seen that way, but I like the idea that the Indoril believes that what they order and intend to do is in the natural order of things.

As if, as a faction, the Indoril people think they aren't "enforcing" their will at others, but only playing or upholding their role which is part of, in their view, just how the world is.

They expect to be naturally accepted as rulers, just as they naturally accepted to rule.

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klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Concerning faction relationships, or NPC reactions towards members of other factions.

In another thread I started drawing a table to determine faction relationships with other factions, which has changed a few times since the first sketch. The table shows NPC reactions towards members of different factions. The table should be read by finding the source faction on the left hand column, and matching it with a faction from the top row. See the table in the spoiler below.
Gnomey wrote:
First of all, in those graphs, I think the vertical columns are really the most important. They show how the opinions of members of factions change upon the player joining a certain faction.
Always remember that faction relations are inherently player-centric. The player will probably never join Her Hands, for instance, so figuring out what other factions would think of Her Hands would mostly be a waste of time. Figuring out what Her Hands thinks (if anything) of other factions is, however, very important.
Truth be told, I think it might be more reasonable to just figure out the vertical columns in the individual faction threads. This would split the task into bite-sized portions, allowing for proper discussion, and it would be rather easy to then go through the faction threads and gather the results.

Per Gnomey’s advice I am now splitting this up through the faction threads. Please discuss in this thread the reactions of other factions towards Great House Indoril to keep things organised.



I could assume the Imperial factions that haven't yet been handled also don't have much love for Indoril. A +3 towards Indoril from Her Hands seems quite obvious as well. Any more thoughts on Indoril relationships?


Last edited by klep on Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Notes for House Indoril.pdf wrote:
A flurry of exegeses were written to explain the Armistice in
terms of determined law; these tended to present the situation in a way that maintained the
Tribunal's total sovereignty over Morrowind.


Do these actually exist? The only titles I could possibly relate to this are Charity and Leadership and The Truth of Indoril Fidelity.
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Tondollari
Developer
02 Dec 2013

Location: Louisiana

I have a quest idea, perhaps suited to somewhere in quest numbers 2-6 of Sload's outline.

An Indoril is found dead in the courtyard of a castle-estate.

Early in the morning, he went out to ring bells that he rings every morning for some kind of ritual (mourning for a dead son or something?). Afterwards, a scuffle was heard but he died before anybody arrived at the scene. Nobody saw the murderer.

The player is somehow given cause to play the bells, maybe even the melody that the Indoril played before dying. Doing this summons a daedra that attacks the player. Apparently, someone who knew about the Indoril's daily ritual cursed the bells.

The player has to find this person and kill him/her.
Post Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:45 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

Nice -- but shouldn't something like this be part of a bigger story? Daedric curses, to my knowledge, are not common knowledge in MW; an enchanter, an arcanist or a Daedric cultist might know them, but not an average bandit trying to rob a mansion. If my MG-vs-Indoril plans are still considered up to date, this could be part of the setup, as suspicion can be cast on the MG.
Post Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:38 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Seneca37
Lead Developer
10 Feb 2014



klep wrote:
Notes for House Indoril.pdf wrote:
A flurry of exegeses were written to explain the Armistice in
terms of determined law; these tended to present the situation in a way that maintained the
Tribunal's total sovereignty over Morrowind.


Do these actually exist? The only titles I could possibly relate to this are Charity and Leadership and The Truth of Indoril Fidelity.



I don't think so. The only good write-up of the Armistice is Sload's comment (and subsequent discussion) HERE
Post Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:40 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

Not sure if Horatio Gargonath's home is still in Mournhold, but when I did the interior for it I wrote an expose play that defamed House Indoril, the idea being that a quest could be built around it. Someone has to break into his house without him knowing and steal the play before it was published.
Post Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:21 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Would someone be able to concretely write a piece on the political culture of House Indoril? There are so many different voices in this thread and around the forums that I can't really see the trees through the forest anymore.

It's obvious that they are a very traditional house and that their decisions are always motivated by their interpretation of Tribunal doctrine, but other than that I'm not able to create a solid view of how politics are handled.
Post Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:30 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Have you seen this proposal document written by Sload?


IndorilProposal.pdf
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_________________
-Head of NPCs: Skyrim: Home of the Nords
Post Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:04 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

I actually had it, but totally forgot about it. Thanks, Yeti.

I also want to discuss slavery.
Gnomey wrote:
Another question is whether House Indoril should employ household slaves, and what role they would serve in a household. I think that, if only to contrast with House Hlaalu, House Indoril would employ household slaves, but they would probably also employ servants; slaves might do menial tasks around the house, and more rarely Altmer slaves might possibly act as instructors, scribes, clerks or somesuch, though I'm not too sure on that.


How does House Indoril make use of their slaves other than in the field, and do they distinguish slaves of different races?
The Dres, for example, do:

True Sapience of Dres Nobility wrote:
House Dres, true House of the Dunmer, has always been fond of slaves. Our territory lies on the edge of the Black Marsh. A country filled with the murky and savage race of Argonians. This supplies us with a fresh amount of slaves. The creatures are intelligent enough to take caution near our borders, in fear of being captured by our slave hunters and being sold at the market. While I personally prefer slaves of higher intelligence and hygiene, such as Altmer, Breton and some Imperials, they serve well harvesting in the fields. I guess, to be truthful, I rather enjoy any slave, regardless of their gender or race.


I see the Indoril distinguish their slaves in a similar way. Though they are all still filthy slaves, those that perform in the household and other posts where they'd be closer to nobles, they would prefer them to be of non-beast races.
Post Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:06 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Yeah, the beast races are especially unpalatable and mostly kept out of sight of the nobles, but also the most numerous. They would mostly be lent to Velothi towns to help with labour and such.
I'd assume Imperials, Nords, Bretons and Redguards, in the rare instances where they do appear, would be used essentially as slave soldiers or -- if they have the skills -- craftsmen, as they're perceived as being ill suited to hard labour, but one doesn't want to see them around the lord's household either.
Elves are perceived as the least unpleasant of the other races, and one can just about get away with having them in the lord's presence. They're still at the bottom of the barrel, though, as far as household status is concerned; even lower than any Velothi who work on the estate.
Dunmer slaves would be rare, but relatively sought after. There would still be an insurmountable stigma due to their being slaves, but they're not bad to look at, at least, and their presence would generally not offend any tender sensibilities or anything. They might even be trusted henchmen, in some instances.

Note that I came up with a lot of this on the spot, so it's very much up for discussion.
Post Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:53 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Adding an IRC log between Gnomey and me about Indoril slavery for reference.

<Gnomey> I replied to your slave question.
<Gnomey> I think the important point is that slaves are always looked down upon, and are not treated well; they wouldn't have fancy rooms or anything, even if they act as tutors.
<klep> I had a similar view on them. Maybe not on the Dunmer slaves being trusted henchmen, but if they are limited the idea isnt bad. How does a Dunmer en up being a slave though?
<klep> They'd need personal stories
<Gnomey> I frankly have no idea,
<Gnomey> but I doubt the Indoril would make Dunmer slaves;
<Gnomey> hard to say.
<klep> Or simply not be allowed to speak of it. Kinda lame though
<Gnomey> Just to throw ideas out, one idea would be to settle debts.
<Gnomey> Another would be as a way of dealing with outlaws,
<klep> I could see some Hlaalu scum being enslaved by the Indoril
<Gnomey> another would be as a way to deal with enemies, so if House Hlaalu catches a spy, away he goes.
<Gnomey> I think the Indoril would have too lofty a view of Dunmer, frankly.
<Gnomey> If you're a slave, you're a slave,
<Gnomey> but if you're a free Dunmer, no matter how misguided or unpleasant, you deserve not to be a slave.
<Gnomey> I frankly see them as considering death a better solution, for the most extreme cases.
<klep> Ah yes, "An Argonian alone in the waste is not a slave. A Dunmer alone on the mountain is not a master. Yet they both have it in them to be slave and master, should they meet together. It is in the meeting that the bond is created."
<Gnomey> Yeah.
<Gnomey> In the case of Hlaalu, though, and its associated Tongs and such, I do see some of them being petty enough to enslave their enemies.
<Gnomey> I could also see Dres doing it as a really brutal form of punishment,
<Gnomey> and Telvanni go without saying.
<Gnomey> Even Indoril would no doubt agree that being made a slave isn't the worst fate you can expect from a Dunmer Magister.
<klep> Not much left for Indoril other than settling settling debts or disputes. As in, to settle a debt, the debtor is permitted the life of a son of the liable party. The father pleads for his sons life. Out of great generosity the debtor agrees to enslave the son in stead of killing him
<klep> Better yet: Out of generosity the debtor agrees not to take the sons life, but enslaves him in stead
<Gnomey> As I say, I think the Indoril should never enslave Dunmer themselves.
<Gnomey> THey use Dunmer slaves, but don't produce them, so to speak.
<klep> Thats solid

Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:49 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

I'm trying to understand Indoril law. Ordained law specifically.


Adanorcil wrote:
The identity of the judges depends on the jurisdictional level of the case. In broad terms, Morrowind's law has two distinct levels. Historically, every Great House has a set of traditional rules and values that it is allowed to enforce as it sees fit. As long as as a conflict does not involve members of a different House, procedure dictates that the defendant is tried under the law of the House concerned. These idiosyncratic regulations can vary immensely. The exhaustive regulations of the Indoril fill a library by themselves whereas the Telvanni have no written rules and few unwritten ones, and as result, never appear before court for such matters. (And in truth rarely do at all.) Redoran disputes are often settled with(the threat of) an honorary duel.

Though this quote dates back to 2012, I feel it's still relevant. However, I find these "libraries full" of Indoril regulations hard to find. There's some mention here and there about Indoril law being very thorough, but the actual laws (or indications of what they could/should/would be like) don't seem to have been written. Most of the Indoril law related topics refer to the Determined Law. I feel a concrete distinction between Ordained Law and Determined Law should be established. Or did I overlook something?
Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:29 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Those libraries are located in the same spot as the extensive, functioning sewer systems under the larger cities, the flurry of exegeses written to explain away the Armistice and children. (Actually, that place sounds horrific...) They should technically exist in-game, but nobody is going to write them, and if we had a willing author there would be much more worthwhile stuff to write.
In short, we act as though they exist, but won't actually bother writing them. As they're supposed to be extensive, contradictory (though the Indoril wouldn't see them that way) and written in ways only Indoril legislators could really (pretend to) understand, agreeing on what those laws are isn't overly important.
Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:36 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Dreadnautilus
Member
25 Nov 2014



Gnomey wrote:
Those libraries are located in the same spot as the extensive, functioning sewer systems under the larger cities, the flurry of exegeses written to explain away the Armistice and children. (Actually, that place sounds horrific...) They should technically exist in-game, but nobody is going to write them, and if we had a willing author there would be much more worthwhile stuff to write.
In short, we act as though they exist, but won't actually bother writing them. As they're supposed to be extensive, contradictory (though the Indoril wouldn't see them that way) and written in ways only Indoril legislators could really (pretend to) understand, agreeing on what those laws are isn't overly important.


I think you could get away with having a whole bunch of books that say "[This book details Indoril legislation concerning property rights]" or something, ala those Dwarven books in Tribunal that say "[This book appears to be written in an unknown Dwemer language. From the schematics, it appears to be a manual on fabrication of metals.]" and whatnot.
Post Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:44 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Something came up on IRC when I was discussing Indoril law & justice with Gnomey. It’s related to the following reference from Weirding Indoril:
Why wrote:
Escalating Sload's idea of retainers fasting in their master's name, how about we take this idea of substitutes to the extreme?

When lesser disputes among nobles are settled, either by gentlemen's agreement, social justice, or by a Temple official, or more major disputes are taken to the Courthouse(?), a noble can opt to have his punishment enacted on one, or multiple, of his subjects, instead of himself. For instance, a noble convicted of a crime may choose to pay reparations in either coin or blood. He may then volunteer one of his retainers to take the punishment for him. Since noble blood is obviously more valuable to the Indoril than that of one of lower birth, a heavy punishment for a noble can be translated to the flogging of multiple of his retainers, or the suicide of a few. This practice is regarded as normal, both among nobles and their subjects, and is seen as being "for the good of the House" since the House needs its leaders more than it needs any individual retainer.

See in IRC log in the spoiler below, it has been edited slightly for the reader’s convenience:


<@Gnomey> I'm not sure about the reference to suicide as punishment, but that's a subject that can be discussed.
<@Gnomey> The only real reference we have to Indoril suicide has been repurposed by TR to, rather than being a sort of Japanese-style harakiri,
<@Gnomey> having been due to insurmountable dissonance between the reality of those who committed suicide with the reality they faced.
<@Gnomey> I see no real reason to believe that Indoril think suicide is a legitimate method of absolving oneself -- or ones master -- of sins.
<@Gnomey> Same for flogging, really;
<@Gnomey> rather than punishment, I'd think they would rather favour shows of piety to make good on the transgression,
<@Gnomey> and if the transgression is too large, the greatest punishment would be banishment.
<klep> Sounds very reasonable. Something to be discussed openly
<@Gnomey> Yeah, you make a good point. Razz
<@Gnomey> The point that Indoril shouldn't be suicide-happy was made on the forums,
<@Gnomey> but even that could require further discussion.
<klep> Yes I did read that somewhere
<klep> Cant remember where, but I was very much in favour of the idea that the suicide thing was a one time thing in history and that the Indoril should not be habitual to it
<@Gnomey> Yeah, exactly.
<%Seneca37> I concur


I remember now where I had read this before; in a post by rot in this thread:
rot wrote:
There are no suicide rituals in Indoril culture; the mass suicides were a spontaneous collective phenomenon, which is not mentioned in polite conversation

Now, a clear consent hasn’t yet been made on Indoril suicide, though I suppose most would agree with rot on this. However, the topic of Indoril justice is still rather vague. How does Indoril law punish those guilty of wrongdoing, and does punishment differentiate for people of different social classes (House members, House nobles, non-House members, outlanders)?

Unrelated question: Why do my quotes screw up? Thanks Terrifying Daedric Foe.


Last edited by klep on Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
Post Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:08 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Terrifying Daedric Foe
Developer
26 Aug 2010

Location: England

I think there's something wrong with your quotation marks. Yours look this - ” - when they should look like this - " -

(you can't see this on the forums, but if you click "reply with quote" the font in the reply box makes the difference obvious.

_________________
'The strange thing about TR is that I think it is by and large accepted that we will finish. We are all the sort of crazy people that would do such a thing. We are inevitable.' ~ Thrignar Fraxix
Post Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:21 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

I've been working on getting together an Indoril Master planning for a while now. It’s basically a summary of (almost) everything which has been discussed concerning House Indoril. The document is quite self-explanatory, so I’ll just go ahead and post it. Discussion is encouraged.

Swiftoak also had a go at an Indoril document, choosing a different approach. It’s worth a read as well. Link to Swiftoak's doc



Great House Indoril [Master Planning] v1.0.pdf
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Post Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:08 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Seneca37
Lead Developer
10 Feb 2014



The above document can also be found at the top of this topic. I (or one of the leads) will make sure that the latest version can always be found there.
Post Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:47 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

To start off, I want to commend you for your diligent work organizing this, klep. I cannot imagine how much time it took for you to mine our old threads for raw material to craft this planning document. It truly is a momentous achievement.

Overall, I think it would be good to keep klep's opening words on the purpose of the document in mind for upcoming discussion. The document serves as a great summary of what we have (inconsistencies and all). Past discussions can always help inform future decisions.

To be completely transparent, I am in love with Swiftoak's vision of House Indoril - it's characters, it's settlements, it's regions. Everything about it clicks for me in a way that is both inspirational and practical. That's not to say it diminishes klep's work by any means - both are immensely useful in their own ways.

_________________
-Head of NPCs: Skyrim: Home of the Nords
Post Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:32 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



Superb work with the document, klep! I particularly like the fact that you have everything referenced!

I'll comment more once I've thoroughly read the whole thing.

_________________
stars are out tonight.
Post Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:57 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Here's an updated version of the House Indoril planning document. Most of the changes are results of last Skype Meeting, which was about this document. Find in the spoiler spoiler below a change log of this version.

Great House Indoril [Master Planning] - v1.1 Change log
31 March 2015


1 HISTORY
1.2 TR History
Sentence removed about House Indoril's inability to participate in the opening of Vvardenfell.

2 GEOGRAPHY
2.2 Regions
Inlet Bog -> Sundered Scar (name is replaced throughout the document).

2.3 Settlements
Added note on Akamora's restructure into three smaller castle-estates (Akamora itself is not touched and remains present throughout the document).
Seyda Vano -> Id Vano (name is replaced throughout the document).
Merged Bosmora and Saint Llothis into Lan Murha.

3 GOVERNMENT
3.1.1 Law, justice and taxes
Updated the way Indoril acts on wrongdoings of other Indoril.

3.1.2 The decay
Added short bit about how the small groups mentioned in this section will be developed.

3.3.1 Foreign relations
Largely updated the Indoril relations with the other Great Houses and the Empire.

4 ECONOMY
Slightly updated.

5 DEMOGRAPHICS & CULTURE
5.2 Education
Added a sentence about Indoril tutors.

6 PLAYER INTERACTION
6.2 Quest line
Added info about the House War.




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Post Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:43 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

After having proposed 'devoir' as the topic name for Indoril quests, without much success, I would like to propose using the word 'piety'. Both the meaning and the sound of the word seem Indoril-like to me.

However, the plural of piety is pieties, which does look rather ugly in my eyes. Therefore I propose using it only in its singular form (don't take note of the sentences rather than the use of the word piety as they are merely simple examples):

Advancement:
"You must show more piety before you can advance any further"

"You have shown enough piety to take the rank of X"

Piety:
"Speak with Indoril X if you seek piety"

To be honest I'm not yet totally convinced of it myself, but the word popped up in my mind so I thought I'd share.
Post Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:28 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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