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Garmethyu
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Garmethyu's writing showcase

Post by Garmethyu »

Hey guys!

I was wondering: Is there any room for spiritual/religious/mythological poetry? I'd like to tell stories of the gods (either Tribunal, Aedra or Daedra) and of the heroes that are directly affected by their actions. Think of it as a mini-Morrowind version of Ovid's Metarmorphoses.

The only problem is that I dont know how the mainstream Dunmer poetry looks like. Where could I find some "rules" regarding meter, rhyme scheme and literary figures?

I hope to start on this project as soon as possible (and as soon as one of you guys allow me to get started). I am excited to finally contribute to the TR development!

Cheers
-G
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Gnomey
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Post by Gnomey »

There is room for it, but it's a very ambitious topic to tackle, which really requires extensive knowledge of and familiarity with TES lore.

My first suggestion would be to read a lot of extant ES texts. There are quite a few which, in one way or another, fill a similar niche to Ovid's Metamorphoses:

[url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/monomyth]The Monomyth[/url] could be likened to the first book, dealing with creation. Note that the Dunmer view of creation hasn't really been explored, though Dunmer seem to hold Lorkhan in higher regard than most other elves. As a side note, 'Daedra' is sometimes translated to 'our better ancestors', though 'not our ancestors' is also given as a translation. The latter tranlation lines up with the Altmer view of Daedra, while the former lines up with the Chimer view.
The [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/16-accords-madness]16 Accords of Madness[/url] is similar in content to the sorts of stories one finds in the Metamorphoses, but certainly not in style. The god in this case is obviously Daedric, and the point of view is obviously not Dunmer.
[url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/ancient-tales-dwemer-part-xi-azura-and-box]Azura and the Box[/url] also deals with a Daedric Prince, and also from an odd non-Dunmer perspective, though the Dunmer perspective is mentioned in the notes.
To round out the Daedric sources, [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/invocation-azura]Invocation of Azura[/url] provides a nice sketch of the attitudes of the 'good' Daedra, though very much from a biased point of view. (As with all TES books that aren't straight-up design documents).

The [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/remanada]Remanada[/url] is a pretty good reference of an Imperial tale of metamorphoses, though not the easiest read. In general, when dealing with the Nine Divines, one can probably get away with adopting a similar tone to Greek and Roman storytellers.

As far as the Tribunal is concerned, the [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/homilies-blessed-almalexia]Homilies of Blessed Almalexia[/url] come to mind, though I wouldn't say they're a good example of typical Dunmer tone. As far as Dunmer poetry is concerned, [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/stranger]The Stranger[/url] and [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/words-wind]Word of the Wind[/url] come to mind.
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Post by Garmethyu »

Thanks! I'll certainly be reading them to figure out how to write a poem Dunmer-style! Perspective will most likely be from a pro-daedric point of view (as in "better ancestors") while not glossing over the fact that quite a few daedra aren't pro-Dunmer. This will result in two topics: importance or might versus cruelty, both being of the same importance to the author.
Obviously, multiple references will be made to the aedra, but they'll be far less important to the author (except when we're talking about the creation of Nirn, obviously).

Regarding your statement that it is very ambitious, I can only respond with: ambitious is my middle name (just kidding). Honestly though, I do not intend to write thousands of verses like Ovid did.
But indeed it is a humongous project. I was planning on posting a few examples of my work as soon as possible so you can give the feedback that I need to start on my magnum opus (gosh that sounds scary). Does this sound good?

P.S. Since the amount of daedra records are pretty small, I'd have to improvise, or sometimes even make up some of the stories that the author is telling. Is this a huge "nono" for you, to tell tales that have never been written down (considering that it is religion after all, and the author can't be sure of anything he writes, regardless of previous records)?
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Gnomey
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Post by Gnomey »

Making up stories isn't a no-no at all; it's encouraged. There's not too much point in retelling stories that have already been told.

Also, I wasn't expecting you to write as much as Ovid did. :P The reason it's an ambitious topic is because TES has such an extensive body of lore. It's very hard to get the pre-established characterization and tone right, and in general to maintain consistency. Though the issue is somewhat mitigated by the fact that TES has no real reliable narrators.
As such, posting examples is a good idea. I look forward to reading them. And I won't skimp on the feedback. :)

If you're going to write from a Dunmer perspective about Daedra, the following texts might also be useful:

[url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/anticipations]The Anticipations[/url] - the good Daedra from the perspective of a Dunmer follower of the Tribunal temple.
[url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/vivec-and-mephala]Vivec and Mephala[/url] - a closer look at the relationship between Vivec and his anticipation in particular, which appears to be written from a western (non-Dunmer) perspective.
[url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/house-troubles]The House of Troubles[/url] - the bad Daedra from the perspective of a Dunmer follower of the Tribunal temple.
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Post by Garmethyu »

So I decided to write in a trochaic tetrameter, giving it little end rhyme so you read it more like a story rather than a poem, while still having enough literary figures to see it as a poem.

This first chapter is the authors introduction to the reader, the explenation of Anu and Sithis, why they are equally important and the birth of Akatosh.

let me know what you like and (more importantly) what you didn't like!
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Post by klep »

Hi Garmethyu and first of all welcome to TR!

I refrained from posting here for a little while as I don't see myself as knowledgeable about literature or poetry, but having read a lot of MW literature and pretty much every TR book, I'm going to allow myself to give my unprofessional opinion anyway.

I like what you wrote and the subject you picked. If this becomes a series they could be used very well in TR. Depeneding on the (ingame) author of the book, the actual lore used and/or created in the series should probably discussed on the go as you write it, but as you may have seen in older threads in the literature section, it's not uncommon for books to go through a LOT of change before they are considered finished and satisfying for use.

My only concern about your poem, which is, considering the goal, a rather important one, is that it doesn't feel very Dunmer. Like I said I'm not a pro when it comes to literature so my arguments could be well off, but the non-Dunmer feeling is real.
Probably the end-rhyming did it for me. To me this type of rhyming has a more noble Imperial tone or a Nordic 'war hymn' tone to it. Here's [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes3Mod:Tamriel_Rebuilt/The_Seasons]another example[/url] of a TR poem with end rhyme, which I personally do find a good poem, but also misses a bit of that Dunmeri feel. Though a totally different type of poem, one I like a lot is the MW poem [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Battle_of_Molag_Beran]The Battle of Molag Beran[/url]. It sometimes adds a bit of end rhyme with a line in between, but very subtly and not all the time. Other good TR poems can be read in [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes3Mod:Tamriel_Rebuilt/Visions_of_Kallistis_73-74]Visions of Kallistis 73-74[/url].

I suggest you have a look at those and maybe also check out some of the other TR work around. The [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes3Mod:Tamriel_Rebuilt/Books]UESP TR Book listing[/url] is up to date, so you can find all the project's work there. Unfortunately I havent yet gotten to compiling a list on UESP by subject, but in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=326184#326184]Modder Resources[/url] thread can be found an Excel file which also has them listed by subject (though now that I look at it I see that it is slightly outdated, but could still be of help).

All that being said, great work and I hope to see more of your contribution to TR!
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Post by sirrah »

Another good example of (Imperial-translated?) Dunmer poetry from Vanilla is [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Death_Blow_of_Abernanit]The Death Blow of Abernanit[/url]
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Post by Garmethyu »

Nice feedback! I'll try to discuss all points and explain my personal thoughts:
Making a poem feel Dunmer is of course one of the biggest issues, but when done correctly, the poem can merge perfectly with the landscape of the game (MW or TR I don't care) and serve as an inspiration for other developers of TR, or as an explenation for the players on how the Dunmeri culture actually feels like.

So "what makes a poem Dunmeri?" Is most likely the most important question that a poet can ask and it is the key to success.


However... It is also virtually impossible to answer.


I based the poem that I wrote on one of the poems Gnomey reccomended, having a clear meter, which I really like (remember, it should be some kind of Ovid). The lack of rhyme was intentional, because it reads more like a story than a poem this way and, thanks to the meter, one can perfectly read this as a poem. Having both end rhyme and a meter makes it hard to read as a story, forcing the reader to read it twice because they could only understand it partially the first time. Also, giving verses end rhyme is insanely difficult and time-consuming with the amount of verses that I am thinking about. Other forms of rhyme could be the alliteration (while Walter the waving wale was weighing water whirlwinds) but that doesn't sound Dunmeri at all. Note that the visions of Kallistis have no end rhyme either.

The death blow of Abernanit is a known one and I was intrigued by the "In Morrowind" line, that repeats itself. Having the same line in every part of the poem is manageable with small to medium poems but the one I intend to write is humongous, therefore I decided to implement "came in reach of met of Mundus" every now and then to remember the reader for who the world was made :p

But i never intended my first example to be perfect and though I defend the decisions that I made, I'll listen to any and all comments made.
Here's what I'm going to do: I'll adjust the intro that I made and continue writing till somewhere in the creation of the mortal plane, where I'll stop writing and rewrite the entire poem in a different style (some will have more end rhyme etc.) so that in time I'll have a multitude of medium-sized poems from which the developers can choose. I'll continue working on that particular style.

How does that sound?
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Post by Gnomey »

Personally, I think the meter works well, but has resulted in a very dense poem; I'd consider trying to keep individual stanzas relatively short to make the poem more readable to the casual player. (Note that 'relatively short' and 'more readable' are vague terms with a lot of playroom; not all literature needs to be accessible to everybody, as the 36 Lessons of Vivec amply demonstrate).

I do think two things need to be established, though: who is the author, and who is he writing for? Is the author a Tribunal priest? A member of an obscure religious cult in Almalexia? A Dunmer bard? If the author is a fairly serious figure who is writing an academic or theological chronicle, for instance, I'd argue that end-rhymes would probably be undesirable. If, on the other end of the spectrum, the poem was written to, say, entertain Redoran nobles at a council meeting and eulogize their common ancestry, I'd personally expect them to favour a less formulaic structure with various conventions mixed together.

My main quibbles with the poem are for Lore matters: Akatosh is an Imperial phenomenon that has, indeed, since spread to other citizens of the Empire, but is [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/varieties-faith-empire]by no means universal[/url]. To most elves he's Auri-El, to Nords he is Alduin (though Skyrim does its best to muddy that up), to Redguards he's Satakal, to Khajiit Alkosh.
I have just recalled that the Morrowind book [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/sithis]Sithis[/url] seems to be written from a Dunmer perspective; in fact, like the Sermons, it almost seems to be written by Vivec for Nerevar. Either way, that text does clarify a lot, and I rather wish I'd remembered it earlier.

First off, Sithis uses elven terminology, so Auri-El instead of Akatosh.
More importantly, though, it illustrates the general Dunmer view of creation, and one that really makes a lot of sense: Dunmer completely favour chaos, which is what makes them such outliers among the elves. The text may be harsher than the norm, mind; I'm not sure whether it would be typical for Dunmer to literally demonize stasis.
But the general point carries over: Dunmer are reactionaries. They followed the Daedra out of Aldmeris and, indeed, they later rebelled even against the Daedra.

Another thing to note is that Anu and Sithis are basically forces, not figures, though they are sometimes (as is the case with Sithis in that book) personified to a degree. As such, it seems a little odd to praise them, though it's not completely out of the question either.

Edit: the extended version of [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/obscure-where-were-you-when-dragon-broke]Where were you when the Dragon Broke?[/url] has a line from a Dunmer priestess which might also be worth reading, and for once it's short.
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