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Garriath
Developer Emeritus
26 May 2004



I personally don't feel like it's particularily un-dwemerish to use assassins or have civil wars. It's my view that the Dwemer were a people. Vaelnam, for one, was a dwemer talented at killing people. So it stands to reason he might be used to eliminate key targets. That's pretty normal for everybody, unless my idea of the dwemer is very screwed up.

Greed is also a fairly normal trait. I don't remember reading anywhere that the dwemer were a selfless people completely bereft of greed. Rulers have power. Power currupts. This ruler saw potential for being able to mass extra waterglass without the others noticing, and failed. The civil war can be deleted, sure. This whole element isn't key to the story, and could easily be deleted. I feel it does add some depth, so let's see what everyone else has to say about it.

I think the whole dwemer vs. dwemer fight underwater is good, though. It provides a sense of revelation, that it wasn't what one would expect. It was said before that people just here on TR 'assumed it was a flood.'

With this element we find it wasn't a simple flood, or accident; it was homocide. The PC could uncover more evidence about what occurred the deeper he goes, getting more freaked out as he gets deeper into the core.

And I wasn't thinking uber-glass. I was imagining it to be more powerful than average glass (which, I admit, is fairly powerful) yet was more of an aid for an army then the tool used by some single hero.

That's my defense for the story. If you still aren't happy with it and I see your point, I'll be happy to change it. But let's see what other people have to say, first.


As for joining the project, I could try. I think my best bet is thinking up dialogue/quests but I might try my hand at a few small interiors, if you wanted.
Post Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:39 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Assassinace
Developer
21 Aug 2003

Location: Dreamland

I have no problem with the being underwater in a limited sense but I don't think they would make a colony there. Perhaps a large mine though.
As for the assassin I doubt looking at dwemer polititcs that they would have proper assassins anymore then we do in current day. (Not saying someone couldn't be assassinated).
Also there aren't many dwemer texts left surviving and there wouldn't be any underwater. Therefore making the story evident to players might be difficult although I like the idea of the mine being flooded and conspiracy and all that.

My suggestion is that the water glass be the same stuff they used for keening. It wouldn't be any stronger than normal glass, nor will we tell the player what it is beyond subtly showing that it was the material sunder was made from (just a thought).
I would make a retexture of the raw glass in game. And maybe retexture a dwemer short sword or two.
Post Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:18 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

OK. My version of the story (ispired by Garriath's one I must admit).
Once upon a time, even before Veloth, dwemer and stuff there was an island somewhere between VF and mainland. Island was rich on resourses plus it had a volcano in it's center. When the dwemer came they started using island's resourses. Because the island was small some parts of the mining facility were built underwater (after a long research on how to keep water from coming inside the facility). The time passes, facility growed and dwemer found some really valuable resourse on the island - ebony (for example). So they moved most of the facility underwater. They invented the sub to get ebony to the surface and themselves to the underwater facility (this will require 2 models of the sub - one freigter sub and another playable passanger sub). So the dwemer on the surface were happy to receive weekly shipments of ebony and live their happy lives. But once the shipment didn't come. A team was sent to investigate and it didn't return also. And shortly after that the volcano errupted buring surface facility under lava. But due to the underwater mining the island didn't grew - it just submerged. Dwemer didn't want to loose the sourse of ebony so they decided to rebuild the facility. And than the War of the First Council started...

MoDH owner though that it was something even bigger that just a mining facility (maybe he wasn't wrong after all ?) so he sent player to investigate...

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Post Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:19 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

As for recharging the sub with oxygen. Why won't simply tell the player that he needs air to breathe and the sub have only limited supply of the air on board (2 main tanks + 1 reserve. 1 tank = 5 minutes of waterbreathing) so he must recharge it with air.
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Post Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:21 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Assassinace
Developer
21 Aug 2003

Location: Dreamland

I'm not sure that Dunmer would understand the concept of air being depleted. Yes they know they can't breath underwater but that doesn't mean they understand what air is. Therefore the player may not understand that they are refilling the air tanks when they push the shiny red button or however it's done.
Post Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:35 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Garriath
Developer Emeritus
26 May 2004



I'm obviously in no position to complain. If you want me to, I'll be happy to write some stuff up for this place. But even if I don't, there's one thing I'd beg: Make some surprises!

This is the main problem I got with a lot of MW's quests. If you hear a tax collecter died, it's the person who argued with him. All that. Everything went really simple, and I felt that this is one of the strongest flaws in an otherwise AWESOME game. In the case of an unknown dwemer colony (or whatever you wish to call it) there's a great potential for unexpected twists and surprises. This could be one of the most memorable quests in all of TR, if we (or, should I say, you) play your cards right. I'd ask that you let me come along to help you, and make a few small interiors, but, as I said before, I'm in no place to make demands.
Post Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:44 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

Help is ALWAYS appriciated. I don't want to look like an uber modder which can do everything by himself. I just posted my story. I didn't like your because I think it's not dwemerish. We all imagine dwemer w\o assasins, civil wars and smuggling. It fits Dunmer more.

About air. Why player must not know that he's unable to breathe underwater because there's no air ? But anyway refilling tanks no matter how it is called I think is a nice idea. Any arguments against it ?


And ppl please post more comments about 2 versions of the main story.

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Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:48 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Assassinace
Developer
21 Aug 2003

Location: Dreamland

Ok the tanks don't matter because basically what will happen is every so often you will have to resurface. Just curious however. How are you going to script it?

On a side note the point I was trying to get at is the dwemer are mysterious and therefore being straight forward and saying player you must refill your air tanks every 6 minutes and haveing a description of how the air tanks work by the guy that gives you the sub takes away the mystique. However I agree that making the player resurface every so often is probably the best way to go.

Oh and whats really been bugging me is that they aren't H20 tanks as if they were you would drown. They would be either 02 tanks or N20.
Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:26 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

H20, O2, NO2, N20 - that doesn't really matters now.

I was thinking that player must return to the refilling station every time he need his tanks refilled. I'm saying "tanks, "refilled" , "air" etc. only here. There will be another explanation.

How it's gonna be scripted ? Through the global scripts I think. It'll check how much tanks are filled and add tanks*6 min waterbreathing spell to the player. Player will be able to change the tanks while surfaced (he will have one or two reserve ones). Waterbreating spell will be casted only after "DIVE" command. Because I think it's just a waste of air to use the tanks while surfaced.

And again. Any suggestions and comments about the story ?

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Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:08 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Assassinace
Developer
21 Aug 2003

Location: Dreamland

I'm curious to see what your concept for a dwemer filling station is like because it doesn't seem very dwemerish to me. Overall looks good though.
Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:26 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

It won't be dwemer. It would be built by MoDH owner from dwemer parts. The original dwemer one is buried under the dust.
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Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:42 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

ok:

dwemer sub is an interior, you get in it, rest, then script changes the door to teleport to platform.

Seeing as how when you run out of breath it starts to take down your HP, giving extra breath would be hard...I suggest maybe giving 100 hit points for the duration of the expedition and have a side quest where you are attacked or something goes wrong. that would add spice and change the uberness notch level down a bit so you don't have it easy the whole time.

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Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:43 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

Dwemer sub is not an interior. If it was an interior it will be impossible to control. Only teleport to pre-defined locations. And that sux. I was thinking of adding some malfunctions to it but it'll require hell lot of scripting.
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Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:54 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

so...what exactly is it? a static that moves?
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Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:52 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

Have you played Fishing Academy ? If no - DL it and you'll find a sub there. That's what I'm trying to do.


BTW I think I've got official approvance from the core on making the sub !

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Post Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:24 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Túrelio
Developer
18 Apr 2004

Location: Georgia, USA

How will you get it so that it appears you are inside of the sub with air, but outside it is water?
Post Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:29 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

There's no way to do this. You will in in water while inside the sub but you won't sunk because of waterbreathing. That's how it was made in Fishing Academy and I'm taking my inspiration from there p.lus I'm going to use FA's scripts.
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Post Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:32 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

well I haven't ever seen the fishing academy(heard of it, yes, but not seen it), but this sound's interesting.
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Post Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:27 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

OK. Dexter has painted a really nice sub sketch. Opinions please:

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Post Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:44 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

Bump
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Post Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:16 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
opelcity
Member
09 Dec 2003

Location: Hessen

looks good, but you might want to make the sphere appear like it has been bolted together by metal plates instead of having been forged as a single round object...

Quote:
And BTW nobody want to actually join the project ?


well, you can definately count me in for creative work on quests, books and stuff like that.
Post Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:56 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

OK. Oh about plates. It would be moddeller and texturer who will actually create a more platish look. Judging from the poll this sub is OK for most of the people so I think I should make a request for someone to make it. Any arguments why should I don't ?
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Post Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:42 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Majra
Developer Emeritus
16 Jan 2004

Location: Darvulk Haven Elsweyr

hmmm Im kinda confused about it, which I think is true for most long standing members. I just heard about this just now. At first I thought it was like a moving submarine, like how we would think of a submarine, or like from 20000 leagues under the sea, and I was against it. Then I saw a concept from Opel, which made it look like the machine worked on basic mechanics, ie, it gets heavier and sinks, or it gets lighter and floats, which I liked because it seemed more realistic in the world of tamriel, and itd be interesting, but not such a sudden game changing thing. But now I see that it will have a motor and move forward, which I am against again.

Another issue I found is, you said this is a Dunmer who is facinated by all this. Personally I dont think a Dunmer would be allowed to do all this, its not like the dwemer and Dunmer were really on good terms right? Im thinking a lot of the clans still get ancy with the idea of celebrating the dwemer. And they'd prolly be very frighten from the prospects of someone diving into a hole, to possibly discover the secret of their disappearance, or maybe in their mind maybe even release them from whatever disappearance has occured (this again is from their mindset and not what you have proposed)

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Post Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:29 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Anonymous
Guest




Stalker, on the topic we were discussing earlier on the poll.

A dumner just doesn't have the mechanical or magical knowhow to even REPAIR a dwemer machine as complicated as this let alone build one. It just couldn't be done, now perhaps he may have found one but I've already expressed how much I don't like that idea. Basically I'm trying to say that I don't like the ENTIRE idea of having a DRIVABLE submersible.
Post Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:43 pm             Reply with quote                   up  
Anonymous
Guest




Well personally I like the idea and don't have any problems with it. (of course my opinion doesn't really matter, so anyways......)if there is anything I can do to help, just ask (i really can't do a whole lot with the cs, but i'm trying to learn at the moment).
Post Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:01 pm             Reply with quote                   up  
Anonymous
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Another valid arguement I have is that we would have to MAKE all of that explorable sea floor. If you have a submarine capable of exploring the sea floor of Tamriel, then that sea floor would have to have something in it. I don't think you or even Noirgrim, who claimed the largest area of landmass at one time I've ever seen, would be willing to do that...sea floor is boring!!!!! No one will make it.
Post Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:39 pm             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

OK. My arguments for the idea:
1) Why won't Dunmer be capable of repairing the sub if it has a few holes in it and missing oxygen tanks ?
2) Nobody will know what the guys is planning to do. He will build (repair) the sub in rather isolated place. Plus Black Light is free city.
3) You say that exploring the sea would be boring and such things. OK. Let's pretend that we are making Hammerfel. Dwemer Dirigable comes in mind. Would it be much more interesting to explore air than the sea ?
4) I will agree to remove the sub from the quest if majority of the core and members will vote "against". It won't be turned into a bolt-on because nobody will waist their time on making the model which won't be used.
5) I still need to rework the main story to suit the new circumstances (repairing the sub etc.) so ignore the current one.

So the core and majority decides. If somebody want to make the poll - you're welcome. I won't do this as I'm waiting for responce of the core.

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Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:27 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Anonymous
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Well, Ok the repairing thing, I'm not going to stress that but dunmer are a more spiritual race and wouldn't use technology to explore the sea, perhaps make a rally powerful water breathing spell.

When I meant that the sea floor would be boring I was refering to it would be boring to the people MAKING the sea floor, all it is is a bunch of rocks and seaweed, no one would be willing to make it all. So forget about the dirigible.

I thought of something that I would agree with. What if the sub was only usable in a single dungeon, like it is contained in an underwater cavern underneeth the dwemer museum or something. As long as it doesn't dramaticlly change the way that character would play the rest of the game. By making a ridable sub accessable to anyone who completed the quests, is taking some serious liberties. Think about it, WWBD? instead of WWJD?, (it's my new motto, it means What Would Bethesda DO?) If Bethesda expanded the game, would they really have a submarine capable of completely revamping the way a player plays the game. Just think about it, don't immidiately say "Yeah of course they would" just for the sake of argument, just think about it, This goes for anyone else who's reading this, not just Stalker. WWBD?
Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 1:44 pm             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

First, the latest screenie of MoDH planning:
1 - manor part
2 - Animunculi department
3 - main exihibition
Screenie attached.
1) Why won't ONE obssesed with Dwemer Dark Elf who doesn't know Alternation want to create a sub ?
2) If nobody will I'm gonna make the sea floor around the key places the player is gonna visit in the sub
3) What is WWJD ?
4) My personal opinion: Beth will never add sub to the game. It's just not their style. But if you want I can start bugging one of the devs to answer this question. No, really.
5) Here's a consensus. Player will embarc on a quest in a sub. When the quest is finished the sub will be parked at MoDH. BUT if a bolt-on is DLed the player will be able to use the sub whenever he wants to. That will go ?

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Last edited by Stalker on Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 1:59 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

Forgot that you can't attach screenies by post editing. Here it is.
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Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:11 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Darth_Blade
Member
02 Jul 2004

Location: Russia, Norilsk

The sub could be useful when all of Tamriel is complete (oh, will I live to see that day?). Its use? To travel from province to province (excluding Cyrodiil of course). AND it can be driveable at the same time. I imagine it like that: the player walks inside the subs and starts, then approaches a part of the seafloor that's been marked in the CS and a menu appears asking him where he wants to go. The player chooses the province, and appears just near the similar line in that province. That way there's not too much seafloor to make, and there will be a cool transportation device.
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Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:15 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

Eghh. You don't get the main thing - the sub will be controlable in realtime.
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Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:19 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Anonymous
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But Darth Blade is right, I was stressing this point earlier, unless you can get together a very large group of people with nothing bether to do with their lives than make sea floor for several months then go right ahead.

@Stalker-BTW, I do like the idea you possed about it being a one time deal, the bolt-on is not something I would DL, but then again it's a bolt-on so I don't care what you do there. I don't care what you do with the bolt-on's just keep it in one cell for the original TR agreed?
Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:17 pm             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

Not one cell. You didn't het the point. You build (let I call it that way for now) the sub. It's current position is for example -12,39. Than you need to swim to the ruin at -10,30, complete the quest and return. And that's all. You can't drive the sub until you've got the bolt-on.
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Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:23 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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Hmmm...and what stops the player from never bringing it back? or are you saying that the scenario you described would be the one you would have ONLY if you DLed the bolt-on.
Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:56 pm             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

What stops the player from brining it back ? Lack of air. Player will need to recharge oxygen tanks every 15 minutes otherwise he will drown (I think I'll put "Drain health" enchantment on him so waterbreathing potions and scrolls won't save him Twisted Evil )
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Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:59 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

Oh and one small thing. If the player doesn't like the sub or he thinks that it doesn't fir into TES world why would he leave in in his possesion. Plus you won't complete the quest w\o returning the sub. Contrarguments ? Wink
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Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:01 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Anonymous
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But then all you would need is a Restore Health constant effect that matches it and you could keep it. It's sort of like the boots of blinding speed, all you need is a powerful 1sec resist magicka spell (or potion) and then put on the boots and you can see perfectly from that point on and still be just as fast.
Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:03 pm             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

a) who said that the player will know what enchantment will be casted on him ?
b) the health could be lowered via script

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Post Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:05 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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Thats what bolt-ons are for, keep the player from being able to keep the sub for very long (I personally like the interior only idea), then the bolt-on would allow the player to drive it permanently outside. MAKE IT A BOLT-ON!!!! don't make it so easy to run off with the thing.
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