Mainland Great Houses (who can join ?)

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Mainland Great Houses (who can join ?)

Post by Stalker »

I think that all Great Houses we are making must have rules of joining (not only Indoril and Dres).
Hlaalu: let everyone in (but suspicios to beast races)
Telvanni: no beasts, all races exept Altmer and Dunmer - as hirelings
Redoran: Dunmer and Redguard only.
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Post by Marauth Alaí-Raán »

Not gonna be popular, I know I dislike it already as my character is a Redoran and an Altmer, the Redorans have the least prejudice aside from the Hlaalu, as long as you're honourable and capable. The Telvanni I agree about the beast races, to an extent, but for the rest of them I'm sure again they're not too bothered if you're magickally capable.
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Post by Stalker »

That's not magick capability they care about but your ability to fight.
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Post by Starcrunch »

For Telvanni that is the same thing.

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Post by Stalker »

Huh ? So you think that Bosmer could become Telvanni grandmaster or even Councilor ? Every Telvanni Bosmer I saw was a trader or hireling.
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Post by Starcrunch »

No, for the Telvanni magical ability = ability to fight. The Telvanni respect power and talent no matter who has it, that is much more important for them than being Dunmer. A weak, useless Dunmer is just as low as a weak, useless Argonian in their eyes. I see Telvanni racism as much different than Dres style racism, it's almost eliteism more than racism. The world is not divided into Dunmer/non-Dunmer the world is divided into strong/weak.

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Post by Stalker »

Anyway they won't tolerate inferior beast races (Orcs including) among their ranks. They are slave users after all.
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Post by Starcrunch »

They enslave who they can, it has nothing to do with race. Argonians/Khajit are the primary slaves of the Telvanni because they are the races enslaved by other Dunmer. They accept those that have power it does not matter what race they are, in many ways they are the only House I can really imagine beast races having a snowballs chance in hell of being powerfull in. I see the Dres as outright racist/slaver bastards (ie. old school slavers), Indoril are more like your early 20th century southern US racists (think Governor Wallace), Hlaalu are your I'm not a racist but my daughter better never marry an foriegner type, Redoran are your I only live in white neigborhoods racist. For the Telvanni seeing is believing each person is evaluated as an individual (which makes them sound very cuddley and nice) and then discarded, ignored, or enslaved if they are weak.

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Post by Stalker »

Actually you're not quite right. Telvanni will not tolerate beasts because they are beasts. It has nothing to do with power. If you're Argorian = filthy lizard = you just CAN'T have nough power to become a Telvanni = you must be enslaved. As you can see only Dunmer are Telvanni Councilors. And it's right (to Telvanni way of thinking).
Actually the only House they have a chance of joining is Hlaalu which is really open House. It is them who don't care about your race. Anyway Khajit and Argorians are not magicians to become Telvanni. Look at Corprusarium guarding for example. He was strong even when he was made into a slave. And even now he's not Telvanni but rather Fyr's personal worker. I think "officialy" he's a slave.
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Post by Zalzidrax »

Argonians have just as much magical talent as dunmer. And anyhow, race does not inherently determine a single individual's prowess.
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Post by Stalker »

You actually think that ? Dunmer are perfect battlemages (Destrcution+Middle Armor). And who are Argorians ? Thieves ? Assasins ? But definatly not mages.
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Post by Marauth Alaí-Raán »

An Argonian can pick destruction and medium armour as major skills, face it an Orc can become damn well charming, all right you have to work harder to attain those things as you don't have a starting bonus but it's still perfectly possible for an Argonian to become the most skilled battlemage in Morrowind. The Telvanni enslave humans BTW, they enslave Dunmer as well - ever paid a visit to the slave market in Sadrith Mora? Anyway they respect power regardless of who has it.

I didn't really get the comment about the Redorans, must be an American thing. But they are not slavers at all, in fact they've abandoned it all together, they would accept you if you have the ability to be a strong leader and return them to power, that's why they supported Venim, not because he was Dunmer but because he could help them survive, survival is more important to them than their prejudices.
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Mainland Great Houses (who can join ?)

Post by Dreadmaster Errtu »

Argonian females are said to be quite skilled in magick, so maybe one of them could be a Telvanni leader.
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Post by Zalzidrax »

Stalker wrote:You actually think that ? Dunmer are perfect battlemages (Destrcution+Middle Armor). And who are Argorians ? Thieves ? Assasins ? But definatly not mages.
Battlemages are not the only type of mages; brute force is the only type of deadly magic. Argonians are skilled in illusion, mysticism, and alchemy, all of which can be very efffective- you can't fireball something if you don't know it's there, and absorb health is a very useful spell- never mind the wide range of things one can do with potions.
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beast races

Post by Anonymous »

i have seen a argonian in the house of telvanni and he was for slavery. i dont think you should disinclude the beast racies, but there should be some disavandiges. like not gettinfg an advance all that often or not be able to make the rank above mouth.maybe they could only be hired as mercenaries to do missions like guarding concilors or escorts or rescuse. if besthda software let anyone join the great house of telvanni then we should leave it the way it is.
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Post by Starcrunch »

Marauth Alaí-Raán wrote: I didn't really get the comment about the Redorans, must be an American thing. But they are not slavers at all, in fact they've abandoned it all together, they would accept you if you have the ability to be a strong leader and return them to power, that's why they supported Venim, not because he was Dunmer but because he could help them survive, survival is more important to them than their prejudices.
It is an American thing...There are places that don't believe in slavery but don't want to mix with other types of people. Not all racists believe in slavery (ie. Redoran) and not all slavers are racist (ie. Telvanni).

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Post by Nomadic1 »

I don't see Redoran as being racist at all, instead they are charged with the defence of Morrowind and they only want to deal with those which hold loyalty to Morrowind whilst still maintaining their high standards of honour and chivalry.

House Telvanni is not particularily racist either, until the high ranks which they would prefer to keep Dunmer. They don't really care to much about race and politics and so forth, they are just isolationists.

House Hlaalu I actually find to be the most racist house on Vvardenfell, despite the fact that they are the only house with non-Dunmer councillors. You need only speak with people of House Hlaalu as to why I think that.

House Indoril is not so much racist as they are devout. As in they don't really want to know you unless you are a temple follower, and as the temple is primarily a Dunmer institution, it seems as though they are racist. They don't like foreigners telling them what to do, and they certainly do hate the empire and the legions and cult.

House Dres I reckon is the truly racist house, but I don't find them to let race get in the way of money with these people. Tear is the largest seaport and trading centre in all of eastern Tamriel, and I have no doubt that you would expect to find shopkeepers and merchants and so forth of non-Dunmer races as being as much a part of their commercial scene as you would find Dunmer.
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Post by sirwootalot123 »

Here are my ideas:

TELVANNI: all magic-like races perfectly fine, non-breton humansharder to get in but still possible, no beasts unless they prove themselves to be very powerful.

INDORIL: Dunmer perfectly fine, all other races must be fairly high in the temple (at least layman), no beasts.

REDORAN: All races, but dunmer much easier to get in (instant join).

HLAALU: all races equal.

DRES: Dunmer ONLY, and still quite hard to get in because of being a non-native.
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Post by Keldor »

Argonians and khajit races, it just wuld not be right having those in the televani house. It's like having a black mani in the KKK, it would not be right. By the way anyone wach chappelles show rememeber when he was blind and he thought he was white and hated black and was the leader of the KKK, and when he showed his face the one guys head exploded that was the best show. Back on the subject beast races being a member of the telvani I think it would be aginst lore because telvani are good at magic, if you read the booklet or manual that came with the game for Khajits it says they are good thieves and they get no bonuses for magic. Sure you can make a beast race good at magic, but if you couldnt it would kind of ruin the game. So I say beast races being in the telvani its just not right.
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Post by Starcrunch »

Keldor wrote:Argonians and khajit races, it just wuld not be right having those in the televani house. It's like having a black mani in the KKK, it would not be right. By the way anyone wach chappelles show rememeber when he was blind and he thought he was white and hated black and was the leader of the KKK, and when he showed his face the one guys head exploded that was the best show. Back on the subject beast races being a member of the telvani I think it would be aginst lore because telvani are good at magic, if you read the booklet or manual that came with the game for Khajits it says they are good thieves and they get no bonuses for magic. Sure you can make a beast race good at magic, but if you couldnt it would kind of ruin the game. So I say beast races being in the telvani its just not right.
Telvanni are nothing like the KKK, Argonians have Illusion skill which last I checked was a school of magic.

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Post by Munkie »

Regardless of how others feel especially those that have participated in this thread, I ask that the moderators lock and delete this thread for the simple reasons that this discussion has gone off topic and could possibly lead to a direction that is not needed.
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Post by Garriath »

Oh, I'd disagree. The purpose of this thread was to discuss what races are allowed in whatever house. Racism plays a large role here, as the Dunmer are a fairly racist/xenophobic nation. Discussing which Great Houses are more prejudiced is a fairly important factor in this.

But if the moderators choose to lock it, so be it.
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Post by Marauth Alaí-Raán »

I think crude discussion relating to the KKK are unnecessary however. But yes rascism is a large part of Dunmeri society but the Telvanni are not in any way rascist comparing them to the KKK is a rather misguided idea, they're slavers, not rascists.

I'm rather in agreement with Sirwootalot on this actually, though I think layman is letting us off a bit lightly for the Indoril, layman is the first rank, all you have to do is go sign up at a temple and bingo you can join House Indoril, you should at least have to prove you have faith by maybe doing those pilgrimmages - the first mission in the Temple I think is to go get blessed at a variety of locations.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

Well said Garriath.

I do reckon that people overstate how racist the Dunmer are. When Caius and others give their description of the various houses, it does not come clean from bias. Caius is an Imperial who holds alliegience to the empire. People like that tend to get along well in Hlaalu lands, but are disliked in all other lands (for obvious reasons). People who do take heart to Morrowind find themselves welcomed IMO in Redoran and Indoril lands because they charge themselves to the defence and well-being of Morrowind. The Telvanni I don't think even care about race, they just hate the empire and Imperial institutions are do their best to thwart them. The Dres are racist IMO, but not as racist as everyone says. I don't think they'd let non-Dunmer join the house, I imagine them to call foreigners scum at every chance, but they certainly do business with them in a civil manner (think the Sload; if those fat disgusting disease-spreading slugs are welcome in Tear, then why the hell wouldn't anyone else? Sure, a few gangs might try to enslave Khajiit and Argonians who enter the dark alleyways and so forth but they wouldn't be actively seeking to do that to their business partners and customers)
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Post by Nazz »

Basicly this all comes down to a battle of lore vs fun for the player. And to me fun to the player is more important here, and its also the path Bethesda obviously took. Really if they had gone strictly by what we knew of the houses before Morrowind and restricted memebership by race House Hlaalu would be the only one the player would be able to join.

Hlaalu is easy, they would allow almost anyone in. It would still be very difficult to raise in the ranks for an outlander because despite their love for the Empire they are still Dunmer and still share some of the ties to their less Imperial loving bretheren

The Telvanni are "the most xenophobic of a xenophobic race", considering the source its obviously a bit biased but the basic concept of the Telvanni liking to keep to themselves and shunning outlanders is there. Perhaps they would hire some as mercenaries, as we see in game, but they would never allow a Argonian, or any other race, no matter how strong to advance into true membership in the House. In fact they might dispose of such a mercenary if he/she seemed to have grander thoughts than lowly servitude.

The Redoran are weak and small but still a very proud and noble House. Allowing an outlander into the ranks of the house would be a great dishonor to the house as a whole. Again they might take some on as mercs like the Telvanni but I think thats as far as they would let it go. I think its worth noting a subtlety in the Great House ranks that I think alot of people miss and that is that you are not a memeber of the house until you reach the rank of kinsman, before that time you are just an assossiate/mercenary that works for the house and not an actual member.

The Indoril are the same as the Redorans but more proud and stuck up. They see themselves as the true leaders of Morrowind and hate the Empire and all it stands for. They would never allow an outlander in even as a merc because that would lessen the purity of the house, and all Morrowind born Dunmer would have to be born into the House as tradition dictates. With that said I do plan to let other races join House Indoril but they will have to go through some tests that will get them removed from other Imperial factions if they wish to join.

As for the Dres I don't think they are any more racist than any of the other Dunmer houses, they just rely heavily on slaves. Realisticly they wouldn't allow anyone into the House that wasn't born into it, but I think we should allow other races to join just because it gives more options to the player. We shouldn't force everyone who plays TR and wants to join one of the new Houses to be a Dunmer especially since exception was made for the other three Houses.
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Post by Keldor »

Keldor wrote:Argonians and khajit races, it just wuld not be right having those in the televani house. It's like having a black mani in the KKK, it would not be right. By the way anyone wach chappelles show rememeber when he was blind and he thought he was white and hated black and was the leader of the KKK, and when he showed his face the one guys head exploded that was the best show. Back on the subject beast races being a member of the telvani I think it would be aginst lore because telvani are good at magic, if you read the booklet or manual that came with the game for Khajits it says they are good thieves and they get no bonuses for magic. Sure you can make a beast race good at magic, but if you couldnt it would kind of ruin the game. So I say beast races being in the telvani its just not right.
Starcrunch wrote:Telvanni are nothing like the KKK, Argonians have Illusion skill which last I checked was a school of magic.

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I did not mean the Telvanni are like KKK what I meant was the telvanni use argonians as slaves and therefore they probably wouldnt want them be a member of the house. Just like a black person would not be able to be in the KKK, because it would not be right it would not make sense. Having argonians in the telvanni would make no sense either, the telvanni use them as slave so it would not make sense if they could be a member of the telvanni. I did not mean the telvanni are like the KKK I am saying that it would not be right to have argonians as a member of the telvanni house.
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Post by Stalker »

I see this disscussion leaded us to "Dres to everyone". But judging from the LORE view (not playablity) who would be able to join Great Houses ? Again, from the LORE point of view.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

Well, in game for all three houses you need a patron (Sarethi, Curio and Aryon) to advance once you reach the real levels in the Great Houses. Sarethi and Aryon are apprehensive and need to be convinced by a quest. I don't actually see any reason why you couldn't join any of the houses, just to advance to the real ranks (House Cousin and up I suppose) you need a patron like them.

As for the slave discussion, House Redoran is the only house which doesn't use slaves. Yet Argonians and Khajiit can join House Hlaalu and Telvanni if they want.
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Post by Marauth Alaí-Raán »

Keldor wrote:I did not mean the Telvanni are like KKK what I meant was the telvanni use argonians as slaves and therefore they probably wouldnt want them be a member of the house. Just like a black person would not be able to be in the KKK, because it would not be right it would not make sense. Having argonians in the telvanni would make no sense either, the telvanni use them as slave so it would not make sense if they could be a member of the telvanni. I did not mean the telvanni are like the KKK I am saying that it would not be right to have argonians as a member of the telvanni house.
Erm, I still really see no connection at all between the KKK and the Telvanni, the KKK is a rascist organisation that would not have black members because they believe (for whatever reason - this is not the time or place to go into that) that black people are inferior. The Telvanni do not believe that any race is inherently more or less powerful than any other race, they judge by power and an Argonian can become just as powerful a mage as any elf or human, it just takes longer than the elves.

Think about this: the Telvanni use Dunmer as slaves, do they not let in Dunmer? (a stupid question I know but it makes the point)

From a lore point of view no one should be able to join any of the Great Houses, maybe Hlaalu as mercenaries, you know up till lawman or kinsman or whatever the highest 'guard' rank is. But that would be no fun and besides Bethesda has changed that in game, I really hope they never set a game in Sumurset because it wouldn't be right seeing all the other races wandering about the islands, the same thing would happen there as has happened to Morrowind, the story has to be diluted for reasons of playability.
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Post by Keldor »

OK i give up on the KKK, you just dont get my point so i am not going to use KKK as an example. What should be done is that there will be no argonian NPC's in the telvanni house, except the player. If the player is an argonian there should be some kind of exception to let the player join. But leave NPC beast races out of the house. Have only the player join. Yes telvanni use dunmer as slaves but I never seen a telvanni wizard having a dunmer as a slave its usually an argonian, I only saw them selling dunmer slaves but not actually using one as their slave. So i think if the player is a beast race he can join the hosue. But dont have NPC beast races being a member. I dont want to see an argonian NPC being a wizard, except the player. What I am trying to say have the player join as a beast race, but dont put any beast NPC's.
I am sorry for the confusion about the KKK, I was not trying to relate the telvanni to the KKK.
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Post by Juhazar »

Here's what I think:

Hlaalu: Everyone
Redoran: Dunmer and Redguard
Telvanni: Dunmer and High Elf
Indoril: Dunmer
Dres: Dunmer
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Post by Zalzidrax »

Race restrictions make things boring. Since houses Redoran, Hlaalu, and Telvanni all accept any race in the original game, so that shouldn't change.
Anyhow, Hlaalu care mostly about profit, Redoran are too honorable and noble to deny someone who has proven themself devout and loyal to their cause, and the Telvanni respect power above all else, so non-dunmer would probably encounter more opposition, silencing the said opposition would be as good a seal of approval as any.
Indoril is definitely more traditionalist and secular so they'd probably make it more difficult for a non-dunmer to rise in their ranks.
House Dres is the most xenophobic and the most involved in slavery, so I think a flat out denial of beast races is not uncalled for, and great suspicion against everyone else.

Of course you must remember that the player is an outlander no matter what race they are, so even a dunmer would still be targeted by xenophobia.
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