Alternative argonian sub-species...

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:36 am

There are seventeen breeds of Kajiit (counting the Mane), and the way they are separated is very, VERY different than the way argonians differ. Then you've got several different divisions of elves, and several different races of humans. Silly Masseline, we don't 'do this' to other races, Bethesda's already done most of it for us!

If I have time, I'll try to make a sketch of the basic skull shapes for the different argonians... that's really the part where they'll differ the most, and apparently where the most confusion is.

Massalinie · Post by **Massalinie** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:39 am

Hey! i didn't mean elves and humans, i KNOW that they are allready divided, but the Kajiiti aren't. You said yourself, there are 17 different species of Kajiiti. So, I'm just saying we should think about them too

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:41 am

Massalinie wrote:Hey! i didn't mean elves and humans, i KNOW that they are allready divided, but the Kajiiti aren't. You said yourself, there are 17 different species of Kajiiti. So, I'm just saying we should think about them too

Check out concept art on our site. And please stop brining this thread off-topic. I'm taking myself into account too.

Massalinie · Post by **Massalinie** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:45 am

its not THAT off topic. Its still to do with sub-species'.
Anyway, sorry to intrrupt your work, which btw, is looking really good

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:03 am

The head for Teddy V. is based on that of an iguana, not an ape. At first he was going to have a head similar to that of a komodo dragon, but I didn't want it to be a carbon-copy of that warhammer thing Wooty posted.

Infinitium · Post by **Infinitium** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:09 am

iirc, game lore at some time state that "most argonians found outside the black marsh are of the hist tribe", or somesuch. It was a while since I last played though, so I can't swear by it.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:52 am

The sutadee is Briliant! I also agree that black marsh is way cooler than skyrim, but that's off topic. I think the crocadilian one should be more... well, crodile-like. Firstly, whould long snouts cause any ingame problems? Secondly, I think the body is a little too buff.

As for Tomei, is this one? (in the corner) It says "argonian healer, but it fits the description of tomei

http://www.til.gamingsource.net/gallery/mw_TAoM_p31.jpg

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:09 pm

Hooray! Someone found the Bethesda concept art! I've been looking (unsucessfully) for that!

There's another one I think would be helpful to have around too - the one that gave me the idea for the Tanza-Ra. It's this hunched over sort of crocodile guy with some armor and a shield. Can you pull that one up?

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:38 pm

It's an official concept art so we must use it. BTW the link is wrong. Remove www from it.
I think it fits Tolmei or those priests (forgot their name)

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:03 pm

Unable to find the crocodilian one on TIL - but I KNOW he exists! Aaah! This is driving me insane.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:30 pm

http://www.theelderscrolls.com/codex/races_argonian.htm

I wish youd told me you were looking for it

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:34 am

Hooray! It has been found! THAT's roughly what a Tanza-Ra should look like.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:47 am

Stumpytheguar wrote:Hooray! It has been found! THAT's roughly what a Tanza-Ra should look like.

[url=http://www.theelderscrolls.com/images/codex/races_argonian_center02.gif]This[/url] is Tanza-Ra, and [url=http://www.theelderscrolls.com/images/codex/races_argonian_center03.gif]this[/url] must be Sutadee or that shaman-type ones.

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Sun May 01, 2005 9:20 am

Pardon me for asking a difficult question, but what about the "Arena" Argonians? The Arena/Daggerfall Khajiit where tagged as Ohmes, so what are the more humanoid Argonians tagged as? Are they a mixed breed of man and argonian?

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Sun May 01, 2005 6:11 pm

They are just an outdated design of the Argonian, though we COULD put it into TR. What do you guys think?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun May 01, 2005 6:16 pm

You mean grey skin, green hair? No.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Sun May 01, 2005 6:21 pm

The breed of Argonians seen in Morrowind are supposed to be the ones most at home without the outside world. I'd advise against it,

However, if we switch to oblivion we could have a hidden enclave of the reflective Kothringi. though rumor is they were wiped out by the Knaheten flu, and nobody has seen one since then and told too many other people about it. Though people are probably even more cautious about journeying deep into the black marsh because of the Knahaten flu.

Cjad the Nord · Post by **Cjad the Nord** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:34 pm

I'd just like to go off on a tanget here and correct a mistake someone made earlier. There are no Hist Trees, there is a Hist Tree, called "Eye of Argonia", in the very center of Argonia, in a little known town called Murkwood.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:54 pm

Erm... no.

The Eye of Argonia refers to a game planned by Bethesda but never made revolving around the Eye of Argonia, a gem and/or a key to an ancient lost argonian city.

Murkwood was a forest dungeon in arena, symbolized on the map by a big tree, which may have caused some confusion.

The Hist are always referred to in a plural fashion in all texts I have seen. There is reference to their destruction in the Seed, which is an adaptation of an Argonian slave folktale, and took place probably in the Telvanni isles anyhow, so even so would only mean that the Black Marsh used to extend much further north into Morrowind.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Mon May 02, 2005 10:34 pm

Anyone else anxiously awaiting the argonian compendium from

!!

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue May 03, 2005 12:53 am

We should get all three races and some Khaajit races made and include them in the more luxerious Dres plantations. Maybe the Dres even breed slaves to have certain qualities or be of a certain kind. The Dres plantations should also have a lot more non-beast slaves, but that's offtopic.

Cjad the Nord · Post by **Cjad the Nord** » Tue May 03, 2005 9:35 pm

The Black Marsh capital is called Murkwood, it is a giant tree located in the middle of Black Marsh, It can actually be seen by close by castle, and is believed to be a Religious Symbol for the Argonian.

Also, I couldn't find the exact quote, but I'm quite positive there is only ONE Hist remaining. I'll try and find it tomorrow, though. I suddenly doubt, but I can't find my source, so it'll have to wait.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue May 03, 2005 11:13 pm

If you found it here it's Stumpy saying it. He no longer feels that way.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:14 am

Hey Dexter, love the sketch of Teddy D (or whatever he's called), the physique is nicely reptilian around the chest. The only fault I can pick is the head and face, it looks too human. Could you do a couple of sketches just of the head from the front and side with a more pronounced, snakelike neck and snout, and blank, reptilian eyes. I think the sheer size of a character like this is obviously intended to be intimidating, and to give it a blank, animalistic stare will complement it perfectly. Terrifying! *ooh*

Asylum · Post by **Asylum** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:11 am

Maybe the Dres even breed slaves to have certain qualities or be of a certain kind.

I don't think this would be a good idea to breed kajiiti because the stand of the two moons determans what kind of kajiiti it will become. And it is probably easyer to raid a village somewhere and get what you need then go breeding.

but I'm quite positive there is only ONE Hist remaining

In the days before the great argonian flu the imperials where cutting down all the hist trees to make hist resin armors out of them. but they had to stop and retreat from argonia because of the flu.
I'm pretty sure they haven't covered the whole of argonian because of the swamps the jungle and the beasts living there. (IRL africa wasn't explorer sinds quite recent times and argonia is much worse then there).
So there probably more hist trees, tough it is possible that argonians tell that there are no more to keep people out of there homeland and away from there trees.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:41 am

This isn't really feasible, but I like to think that because of the whole deal with the hist tree, there are countless types of argonians who have adapted to different ways of living. In my mind, there are types of argonians as vastly different from eachother as the reptiles and amphibians we have on earth. There could be chameleon looking ones, ones with long tongues, four-legged ones etc. It would be a tough thing to do, though.

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:19 pm

I attempted a Tolmei...

Graff.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:21 pm

Why's he blue?

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:36 pm

Why should he not be blue? Tolmei's are not built for hunting or actual fighting, so camoflauge like the sutadee is useless, warning colours (all right, a can think of three different colours that would have been more appropriate) would be more effective, ones that state "Watch it, Tolmei has power and will pwn you with magic".

Give me a good reason to change the colour, and I'll change it.

Graff.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:01 pm

Because Argonians are green.

Why SHOULD he be blue?

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:05 pm

Note that an argonian begins life without any defining characteristics; they may or may not have horns or frills, their colors range from brownish to blue-green, and their bodies are generally smaller than the other races.

From the first page, and I'm pretty sure I've seen blue argonian faces in game. Is this the only problem that you have with the suggestion? After all, it is simply an aesthetic choice at the moment.

Graff.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:12 pm

Well, I don't know anything about the Tolmei, but aren't they supposed to be serpent-like? But blue is not between brown and green.

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:16 pm

The Tolmei argonians resemble snakes as much as lizards, with a brightly colored and decorative scaled appearance without noticeable ears. Their bodies are small and frail, making them rather worthless in melee combat. Their fingers and tails are long and curved, with minimal claws. A high cranial dome with a short shout and a series of blue-black stripes down their spines easily distinguish these argonians from their brethren. Tolmei often follow Sutadee into combat, augmenting their abilities with alteration and mysticism spells.

I may have misinterpreted some of the description, but if you cared to actually look within the same thread, at stumpy's quite detailed lore research, you might be able to produce a more well-rounded opinion.

Graff.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:19 pm

I think it would kick unholy quantities of ass if the Tolmei had chameleon-like characteristics, specifically in the eyes. Also, their skin should have cool patternings on them, like the little fucker [url=http://www.grandpoohbah.net/Grandpoohbah/images/Manaus/TropicalLizard.jpg]here[/url]
That would contribute really well to the "I'ma melt you inside out with magic" look.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:19 pm

I never stated anything. I asked questions expecting an answer in lore for a radically different color instead of "well they don't need to camoflauge"

Now that we have that informationa bout the Tolmei, they should not be blue. They should be brightly colored and have blue-black scales.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:59 pm

That's a damn cool looking lizard. I certainly wouldn't mind having the Tolmei texture based off that.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:05 am

Dexter seems to know exactly what direction I was thinking in when I was talking about the race descriptions. Good call.

On the subject of the hist; the only reference anywhere to there only being one left is a book in Morrowind. The book is part of a series written by a court jester, and while there has never really been any evidence against the stories that take place in Black Marsh, a great many of the other books in the series have large gaping plot holes and errors in them that go against lore established by more trustworthy sources.

It was my own opinion that having just one Hist tree would serve to make the entire structural heirarchy of the Argonian society much simpler, but I could never pull out enough evidence to prove that there are not indeed more Hist trees.

I'm on your side here - if you can prove for me that there is only one, you'll make me one happy little guar. Go for it.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:29 am

When you're dmaking up a culture that not only is supposed to be largely mysterious and unknown to outsiders, but must also add flavor to an entire province, simpler is not better.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:14 am

Actually there's already a concept of Tolmei made by devs. They didn't know it is Tolmei though

Art of Morrowind, page 32, picture 106.

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:36 am

As a point of boredom, I'm going to post the rather sloppy two minute colour change version I did, though it may be inappropriate thanks to Stalker's comment

...

It's more of a choice of aesthetics, if I do redo the design based on Dexter's description and closer to properly interpreting Stumpy's description, I'll use the colour scheme that is agreed upon.

Graff.