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El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

Hey, I was looking at the MW concept art and happened to see a pic that woke up lots of ideas in my *cough* mind.
This is the link: http://til.gamingsource.net/gallery/mw_TAoM_p07.jpg

It's a concept showing a building vertically curved on the surface of a mountain (one of the 2 small pics, the one in the right corner).
The note under the picture says this was a concept for Holamayan but was never used, apparently because there are no mountains or canyons that high in Vvanderfell. Come to think of it, there are no canyons at all! Only these foyada things, and their slopes are anything but vertical.

But it would be extremely atmospheric if something like that could be added in one of the western sections of Morrowind. For example, in the mountains that define the Skyrim-Morrowind borders.

If you think it's a nice idea I'd be happy to draw some concept, showing such a town's exterior and interior. Would be perfect for a miners' settlement.


Last edited by El Scumbago on Mon May 02, 2005 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:51 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Vernon
Developer Emeritus
29 Sep 2004

Location: Sydney, Australia

What a cool idea... Shame this was never implemented. I don't quite understand how this would form a town though. The Holamayan part is awesome and if it was meshed for the Skyrim border mountains, it would be a good setting for a part of the main quest. Maybe there are lore issues with this though. :\
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Post Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:57 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

Everything in that site is cool. It's the Imperial library I think.
If the modelers could stick to the concept art, MW would be most atmospheric game ever *sigh*.

Anyway, I don't think there's any kind of lore issue with this.
If the surrounding area is made in a way that is impractical to build a town there, and considering that the miners would prefer not to climb the rock in order to get to their work, then it makes sense.
It could also be built this way to avoid raids, since these are the borders after all, and no sufficient amount of guards stands there.

In the interior of these buildings, where the town ends, the mines begin. Plus Vivec styled bridges connecting parts of the town that are in different slopes.

Alright, I don't know about our lore wise men's opinion but I'll make a drawing and upload it later this evening.
Post Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:18 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Macar
Developer Emeritus
27 Jan 2005

Location: Yellow

Sounds awesome. I agree that the concept art is wicked awesome, I don't know if it was technical limitations that stopped them from makeing it so outlandish, or if they thought that they had to "normalise" it so that mainstreamers wouldnt freak ("This game sucks, everything's all.... different"). Anyway, I love this idea and I cant wait to see some art.
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Post Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:31 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

I have already drawn the Beth concept of Holamayan and two different views of a town with buildings like that, curved on the rocky slopes of a canyon.
In my opinion it's not that much about technical limitations, but then, I have no idea what could it be.

Anyway, I'll upload these plus some interiors I came up with and some undead guys.
Though Snitch did some very good pics on this subject.

The only problem is to drag to my broken leg to the nearest net cafe and scan my work!
Post Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:38 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

This is how I imagined the place. The first pic is for the exteriors, note that the building I drew is a Beth original Holamayan concept which gave me the whole idea.



This one is a pic for the interior, the upper drawing is the town entrance and the lower is the mines entrance located within the city.



Tell me what you think of this idea.
Personally, I believe it can look pretty nice in-game.
IF its creation is possible and lore-friendly.
Post Mon May 02, 2005 5:20 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Túrelio
Developer
18 Apr 2004

Location: Georgia, USA

Wow nice work! Great use of lighting and shadows especially on the interiors. Personally I like the idea, obviously it can't be to much like the in-game Holamayan but similar doesn't hurt if it was built by the Dunmer/Chimer.
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Post Mon May 02, 2005 5:59 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

If it's a miners town it doesn't nessecarily have to be like the already existing buildings.
Actually it's planet Tatooine combined with the MW architecture-the area I mean.
I was dissapointed by the lack of canyons and mountain passages in MW, so I thought of this.
Post Mon May 02, 2005 6:04 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Anonymous
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I love it, I like this type of vertical building.

However im not too crazy about the interior, looks to rough to me.
Post Mon May 02, 2005 6:30 pm             Reply with quote                   up  
El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

Perhaps you're right Jale, but I saw no alternative.
Except if the interior was like the ones in the Ald-Ruhn Manor District, those in the big crab shell.
It would be like this; upon your entrance you'd be in hallway with doors to your left and right.
Each door would lead to a couple of rooms which would serve as a miner's residence.
This could make them look more poor, something like outcasts maybe.
Post Mon May 02, 2005 6:40 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Anonymous
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Thats what I was about to suggest. Far more dunmer-esque.

They needn't be poor. Perhaps it is just a mining town. The rich people would live on the outer wall. The poor people would live next ot the mine in the heart of the city. The really rich would have their own manors carved into the rock.

This seems to be very Dres or Redoran. I vote Redoran.
Post Mon May 02, 2005 6:42 pm             Reply with quote                   up  
El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

I vote...democratic anarchy!
What I mean; IF this can be done, the ideal location for me would be the borders of Morrowind-Skyrim.
These people can be outcasts who discovered the canyon's wealth and decided to form an independent community, decent enough to trade with others, both legally and ilegally.
Post Mon May 02, 2005 6:50 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



This could be a very old settlement, maybe one of Veloth's first when the Chimer first came to Resdayn. It could be build more in underground towers, maybe with domes on top above the ground.

I'd put it in Hlaalu territory personally, and make it under Hlaalu's control, just because there aren't very many Hlaalu controlled cities.

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Post Mon May 02, 2005 7:09 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Zalzidrax
Developer
03 Dec 2003

Location: Bothell, WA

We'd need to find an unfinished claim that has mountains and uses the grazelands textures. I know we have some good GL cliff meshes, Kingfish used them to good effect on his last claim, don't remember the number but it's on the south side of map 6, left of my 6-22 claim. Too bad this idea didn't come along while he was still building it--ah well.
Post Mon May 02, 2005 7:12 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

Uhm, Arthmodeus, in case you didn't notice, this is a Holamayan concept. It was one of the many that ended up in Bethesda's drawers, it's not in-game. Didn't I mention all these? If you want to see it, check the MW concept art that is available in the Imperial Library site. You'll find a bucket of awesome concepts there.
Anyway, it looked very cool to me and I thought it would be worth to show you what's in my mind.
I'm really glad that Sload Lord seems to like it (no offense man but I had the impression you're very strict in matters of architecture and such).

But I'll insist in the 'outcast community' scenario and the buildings staying on theground and not underground, at least for a while.

As for what Zalzidrax said, desert would be great for this but not the Ashland textures, they're way too depressing. Maybe recolored to look more like sand?


Last edited by El Scumbago on Mon May 02, 2005 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Mon May 02, 2005 7:20 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Arthmodeus
Developer
22 Feb 2004

Location: Ann Arbor

Yes, I realized this and deleted my post.
Post Mon May 02, 2005 7:21 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Túrelio
Developer
18 Apr 2004

Location: Georgia, USA

Actually, it is in the game, it's just not on a "real" cliff, but Holamayan is there if I remember correctly, on an island just of Azura's Coast. It's being used by the Dissident Priests.
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Post Mon May 02, 2005 8:26 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



El Scumbago wrote:

I'm really glad that Sload Lord seems to like it (no offense man but I had the impression you're very strict in matters of architecture and such).


Actually, I'm the opposite. I'm all for changing things and adding new things, as long as they're lore friendly. This is similar to Holamayan, so it must be lore friendly. I'm also one of the less strict about "lore friendly" really.

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Post Mon May 02, 2005 8:57 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Túrelio
Developer
18 Apr 2004

Location: Georgia, USA

Well, I consider myself strict on making this game under lore, however I don't see much wrong with this idea. It was done already in-game, as I said, just not as an entire city, it was one Temple. You shouldn't need alot of background for it, just don't make it to special and it should fit in fine as one of the older Velothi settlements, depending on where you place it ofcourse.
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Post Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
kingfish
Developer Emeritus
22 Nov 2003

Location: Prague, CZ

you may want to check this out:
http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=5679
http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=6429
http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=6429

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Post Tue May 03, 2005 5:03 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

Very very very nice Very Happy Kingfish.
But what I suggested is a totally different thing.
Well, not totally but quite different.
What's the location of the city shown in these screenies?
Which place of which map?
Post Tue May 03, 2005 5:53 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
kingfish
Developer Emeritus
22 Nov 2003

Location: Prague, CZ

it's Karthor Dale - map 4

what's the difference between this and what you suggested [aside from arch. set]?

anyway, i love this idea, but there is one big problem: the scale of tes3 world. imo this would require really high cliffs to look good, which is a tricky part - it most likely would end up being higher than Red mt, which is supposed to be the highest peak in morrowind. on the other hand, nothing is impossible...

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Post Tue May 03, 2005 6:12 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

Until I saw the pics you just posted I believed that high cliffs with vertical slopes were something non-existing in the MW world and impossible to make.
But Karthor Dale proves me wrong, so I want to believe that the creation of a canyon town is possible.
As for the altitude, Red Mountain is quite big, no way it could end up being smaller than this.

Jale made a good point about the vastness of the interior, so I'll make some more concept and add it here to show an alternative and-hopefully-better version of it, Redoran styled.

I almost forgot, we should at last make some iron mines, just to explain where all these iron weapons come from.
Besides, iron is a very common metal, Morrowind could easily have some quantity of it.
Except if it's the land of valuable stuff like ebony.
Post Tue May 03, 2005 6:27 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
kingfish
Developer Emeritus
22 Nov 2003

Location: Prague, CZ

well, there are basicaly 2 ways of how to do this:
1. a cannyon type - easier to build and it doesn't need really high cliffs. on the other hand, it imo doesn't look that good.


2. an "eagle nest" type - harder to make, requires damn high cliffs, but look much better imo. just imagine walking on a narrow bridge along a cliff-face from where you almost don't see the ground below you.

detail:

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Post Tue May 03, 2005 7:49 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Abramul
Member
01 Mar 2005



Are the cliff meshes in game, or what are you using for those?

On the eagle's nest variant, a block-and-tackle would be a good idea..

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Post Tue May 03, 2005 8:17 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Theo
Developer Emeritus
16 Dec 2004

Location: PRAGUE

Kingfish, did you do these amazing exteriors in 3 hours Shocked I am stunned.
However, where to put them? As a Redoran buildings they would fit mostly map 4, but if you are going to make it city/village that would require a permission from the core, because of the lore expansion.
However a temple/burial grounds complex would be a nice addition and not such a lore killer if it will be reasonably big.
Something like the combination of valley of the crescent moon and valley of the kings in Egypt.

There is a one of the last claims in Velothi mountains (4-35), it is optimal location to place something like this (It is even close to Kathor Dale).

My 2cents:
If anybody is ever going to make that, why not use both canyon and cliff variants. Canyon leading to large valley with lots of cliffs. Like in old good Indiana Jones Razz

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Post Tue May 03, 2005 9:00 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

This is wicked awesome Kingfish...
The first pic is what I was suggesting. The second pic is way too impressive, I can already see my PC walking on the bridge with lots of fog and no ground to be seen underneath him.
If the buildings' exterior could be recolored to match the cliffs, I think that would be it.

I'm wallpapering these right away!!!
Post Tue May 03, 2005 9:24 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Vernon
Developer Emeritus
29 Sep 2004

Location: Sydney, Australia

I think a retexture of the cliffs rather than the building would make more sense - imo those cliffs won't fit into the west gash region tileset; map 4 being probably the most logical place to put this 'village'. Also a retexture of the cliffs would probably be easier as the west gash textures are already available.
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Post Tue May 03, 2005 9:31 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Vegor
Developer Emeritus
07 Mar 2004

Location: No

These are jsut statics to place and kingfish is one of the best exterior modders out there so it doesn't take much time to throw together a few statics.

I love the look of the birds nest style. It would require some huge cliffs, but I don't think these cliffs will be anywhere near as high as Red Mountain is. The highest peak of Red Mountain crater is about 18000 units high. This would mean that a cliff high enough to rival Red Mountain would be so high, the top would be out of sight even if you had twice the maximum view distance (standard max. is 8192, with FPS Optimizer twice that, 16834)). Of course the bottom won't be exactly on sea level, it still needs to be extremely huge to come anywhere near the height of Red Mountain.

I would love to see a city or some kind of special structure (perhaps a shrine of some sort) at such a location. Of course, other meshes than the Holamayan one or the high Fances should be used since these are unique meshes, but I assume you only used these to show the general idea.

If these cliffs are really that huge that they're combined height exceeds the height of Red Mountain, perhaps you can try to work something out with unique meshes or using these in a different way. I would really love to see this idea put to use.
Post Tue May 03, 2005 9:32 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
kingfish
Developer Emeritus
22 Nov 2003

Location: Prague, CZ

pics: merely a few statics put together - done in about 5 minutes - so, it's just to give you a idea what can be done.
textures: there are 3 versions of those cliff models [wg,gl,bc] - so, no need to retexture - it was a random choice to pick gl ones
elevation: you may be right, vegor, i've never checked the height of RM, only guessing
entrances: i just liked those, 'cos they match the concept art pretty well

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Post Tue May 03, 2005 10:55 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

1. This deserves it's place in Concept Art forum or somewhere else but not in the lounge
2. It deserves it's place in TR aswell. If I wasn't so lazy I would have come to Majra's, Noir's and Koth's place and begged them all the way till they either killed me (and I think that what will happend if I evver do it) or allowed Kingfish to work his magic on it.

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Post Tue May 03, 2005 11:49 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Zephyr
Developer Emeritus
18 Nov 2003



Yeah, the concept art is pretty cool. Any takers on cleaning it up so I can put it up?

Just create a new layer, set its blending to 'multiply', set its color to D9C4A6 and work on the picture until nothing but the picture itself remains. It's not overly difficult, just time-consuming.

I have to add that somehow this reminds me of Silmarillion's elven realm Gondolin, although it was not exactly built in the mountain but hidden in between them.
Post Tue May 03, 2005 12:22 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stalker
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2004

Location: Ukraine

Zephyr wrote:
Yeah, the concept art is pretty cool. Any takers on cleaning it up so I can put it up?

Just create a new layer, set its blending to 'multiply', set its color to D9C4A6 and work on the picture until nothing but the picture itself remains. It's not overly difficult, just time-consuming.

I have to add that somehow this reminds me of Silmarillion's elven realm Gondolin, although it was not exactly built in the mountain but hidden in between them.

I'm on it. I'll PM you the pics as soon as I'm ready.

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Post Tue May 03, 2005 12:56 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Stumpytheguar
Member
27 Jun 2004

Location: Irrelevant

Am I the only one that thought the first image looked way cooler?
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Post Tue May 03, 2005 1:11 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Anonymous
Guest




I think it wouldnt be ammiss to have both.

Maybe the foot of the city and then going up to the higher parts. The top could be a temple.
Post Tue May 03, 2005 1:24 pm             Reply with quote                   up  
Stumpytheguar
Member
27 Jun 2004

Location: Irrelevant

If there were a city in a canyon such as this, divided in two by an open section of bridges... well, that's just SCREAMING 'Political unrest' and 'Social heirarchy'. The very structure of the city would serve as a physical metaphor to the opposing sides of the issues. Can you imagine it? Montague on the eastern half, Capulet on the west. We'd have some GREAT base material for quests.
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Post Tue May 03, 2005 1:40 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Túrelio
Developer
18 Apr 2004

Location: Georgia, USA

The idea of a cliff town is interesting, and I think fairly plausable as well, just don't try to make it into to much of a special situation, its merely a settlement in the cliffs, established during Velothi style. Perhaps new building meshs could be made for some of these, to include platforms and such.Don't make the cliffs to big, but I'd keep the height enough that most will not want to jump off.
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Post Tue May 03, 2005 1:41 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Zephyr
Developer Emeritus
18 Nov 2003



http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=conceptart&section=am

There.
Post Tue May 03, 2005 2:34 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
El Scumbago
Developer Emeritus
09 Apr 2005

Location: Athens, Greece

This is a true honor guys, I'm so glad I contributed something to TR. *opens a crate full of beers and turns the amplifier's volume all the way up*
Post Tue May 03, 2005 2:54 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Anonymous
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Túrelio wrote:
The idea of a cliff town is interesting, and I think fairly plausable as well, just don't try to make it into to much of a special situation, its merely a settlement in the cliffs, established during Velothi style. Perhaps new building meshs could be made for some of these, to include platforms and such.Don't make the cliffs to big, but I'd keep the height enough that most will not want to jump off.


I think a series of quests would be very interesting, even a little faction based thing.

Personally I see this being set in a canyon of a farely normal size but with it being in a bend encombassing a mountain.

Would need a river in the bottom of the canyon, i think.
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