5-1-Red

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kebra
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Post by kebra »

About BL:

. I would like some arguments a bit stronger before to kill one year and half of work. Sorry to repeat but, i don't see why the five cities, all capital in Arena, should be littler than Vivec(not mentionned) or at the same size of many secondary towns. It seems to be more a matter of feeling, what i could accept if it wasn't coming so late.
. The Int problem is not a problem... I can ruin how many buildings i want...all! could be fun. The city has been build to be partly deserted, same density as the countryside but in a town.

Cuting down:
.You can have a broken city, no more, and not by me.
Technicaly, all the meshes are connected. Architecturaly, all districts have a reason. you could supress 10 or 15 buildings without breaking the city, nothing.
.Or, i can restart from nothing, something different, i know the set well enough.

But:
I'm not sure about what i will do. I will take some time before to decide. I'm really, really, really bored(!)
One thing is clear, I will not cutting BL down.

And, i slow down the work on Map2, at least to wait that someone look seriously at it.

And guys,
I'm actually a teacher in Litterature, History, geography and others little things for hard youngs between 16 and 24 years old (250). Modding let me flying, but i really not have the possibility to modd and to follow all the topics and Lores and... I have no idea, how many hours i let in BL, but it must be a lot, maybee enough.
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Thrignar Fraxix
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

How many buildings are there in the city. For this I want to see a count of buildings that will have interiors when the time comes. I would like you to count buildings with collapsed entrances as well as even though they don't have interiors, they are still there.
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Post by Sload »

First, praise: You are an excellent modder. One of the best I've ever seen.

Second, insight: Suran had only 12 interiors. It still felt like a city.

Finally, TF is right: this city needs to be toned down.

I'm going to make some suggestions about how to fix these problems.

First, let's deal with the east canyon. Remove the shack village. People don't care about shacks, they want to see the beautiful buildings above them. Remove the shacks, and then make the canyon more narrow. Instead of half a cell across, make it 1/4th a cell. This means moving a lot of objects and removing part of the bridge.

Then you should remove the whole southern cell, except the silt strider. Its not nearly as stunning as the rest of the city.

I understand these were going to be the most lived-in areas, but it doesn't make sense that the more stunning parts are empty and the more plain parts are full.
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Post by Zalzidrax »

I think the shacks in the canyon are pretty neat, though I think there's probably too many of them... perhaps focus on making a smaller low class section, but add some unique features, like a bazaar-like area for a few merchants to be hawking their wares, or maybe an old tree that they had to build around, or other such interesting outdoor features that do not necessarily add to the interior-load of the city.

Also, though I'm not entirely sure if this is what Sload is talking about, but it looks like from an aerial perspective, you could cut out a few of the buildings in the top part of the picture and move that wall/city border in a bit without really sacrificing any of the feel of the city. Maybe have the wall end on the other side of that tower building in the upper left of the picture.

Of course your the modder in charge, so it's best to take what everyone says as suggestions that you should put thought to rather than people ordering you about... there's a reason the phrase "design by committee" has a negative connotation. Though I think there is a consensus that the city could be a little tighter while not losing much of its character and stil remaining impressive.
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

here is my quick advice to sort off resize the city without actualy resizing it much (though you probably still should remove some of the buildings). looking at the arial perspective, some of the shacks should probably be removed. the rest seems fine to me.

name only the populated parts with a custom name so that only they appear on the map. for the abandoned areas, make a new region (something like "Blacklight, Old Quarter" or something) so that it dosent appear as a square on the map. that will make the city seem smaller but not actualy be so.

i personaly dont think cell size matters too much, its more about the concentration and design of the town. this one looks great. and if the above region thing is followed, it will also look a whole lot smaller on the map.
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Post by Theo »

There is also other way to tone the dreadful interior number down.
Some of the interiors can be collapsed (about 25-35 percents), some can be just abandoned (40-50 percent) and full of webs and rats. You can also use one interior claim (named for example eastern docks houses or so...) for multiple interiors. I would not get rid of the shacks though.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

Theo wrote:Some of the interiors can be collapsed (about 25-35 percents)
IMO this doesn't really help, just because you can't get in doesn't mean the buildings aren't still there. But I might be persuaded not to count collapsed ints.
Theo wrote:some can be just abandoned (40-50 percent) and full of webs and rats.
This really doesn't help.
Theo wrote:You can also use one interior claim (named for example eastern docks houses or so...) for multiple interiors.
Doing this sucks and leads to confusion.
Theo wrote:I would not get rid of the shacks though.
I would tone them down, you don't need that many IMO.
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Post by Silvone Elestahr »

I tend to agree with kebra here... He did ask for opinions on his city quite a while ago. And he waited quite a while with absolutely no response from the core or any other top modder. So he continues his work, and now he's told to cut his city down to size. He makes a joke and just deletes half of his city, and someone says "yeah, do that!"

I understand that this is how TR works, and sometimes entire cities that modders have put dedicated time into don't even make it into the final project. But BL is a lack of effort on the cores part, in my opinion. I think Kebra should continue the city, just to see his own work completed. Then, if the core is unhappy with it, they can designate someone to cut it down to size.
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Post by Sload »

Yes, Silvone, you're probably right. We should have grown a pair. But telling everyone that you've figured that out isn't going to help anyone. Please keep the finger-pointing to a minimum while we try to handle what is a difficult situation already without apportioning blame.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Is 9 cells really so large as to be worth decimating this masterpiece? :(

How big are our other biggest cities?
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Post by Sload »

Nothing's getting decimated.

Let's all just calm down for a while. If we keep shouting about what we think should happen, this isn't going to go anywhere.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

On the less shouty note of my previous post, how big are our other biggest cities? I don't have the facts here, so some filling in (not that I deserve or truly need it) would be nice.

Is Blacklight as it stands really dwarfing the others?
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Post by Sload »

Yes. Its far larger than everything but Narsis and Almalexia, and Narsis is supposed to be made smaller.

Let's just keep the discussion in this thread to a minimum so that this can be done right.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

Indeed, I want no more posts here from anyone but kebra. Discussion will take place in private and the admin forum. kebra will be involved. Thank you for your cooperation.

edit: any posts made by anyone other than kebra or the core will be deleted.
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Post by kebra »

Private?

That's because the descisions are so private than even the modder in charge don't know the goal that we are in this situation.

BL is dead.

The only question is: will i stay in TR to start a new BL.
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Post by Haplo »

No, private so we can include you in the discussion; Blacklight has failed to have a unified, agreed-upon focus, despite the many lackluster attempts to do so, and we want to catch up with ourselves and do it right this time, after so
many failures.

I do apologize to you that all this is coming up now rather than weeks or months ago. But... After all, who better to do the final than you, who is so in tune with TR's vision?
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

its private so that we have a unified goal and so that we actually KNOW what needs to be done. each person in this thread has a separate opinion, and i personally think that its only confusing. once we decide what exactly we need to happen to the city (and believe me, we want to preserve as much as possible) then we will tell you an agreed upon proposal, not individual recommendations. then you can go "sure, i can do that" or "no, how about we do this" and we will all end up happy.

and really, i do love this city to death. BL is not dead by any means. you may have to remove some shacks and not name a few cells "Blacklight", but you wont have to cut the entire city and redo it.

[edit]which file is the latest? the one from jun 11?
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Post by kebra »

Happy chrismas.

About BL:

I'm leaving for shorts vacations, and will send my descision at the beginning of january.

Anyway, i will not cut down BL, the only thing i can accept to do is deleting the shacks area and some of the towers of the cliff. That let 100 Int in BL, far too much so.
That especially will not fix the impression to be in a big city.

I thinck that i'm on the way to ask the revocation, because i'm quite sure that if it's not now, it will be cutting down later. And i have lost enough time with it.

I'm even not sure to keep my others claims, i will probably finish the work on Map2 and on my own claim on Map6, but no more.
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Post by kebra »

It's time now,

First, you must know that i'm still very angry against TR:

Vernon, when he was the admin, asked me a nine cells city, the only exemples was Narsis, Almalexia, BL, Vivec, all big cities. KF told nothing and the point was to decide the house...
I have PM Vernon several times but he was already preoccuped somwhere else, during one year i had no instructions (more: Vernon asked me to do the things like i want with no Lore limits!)
That's only one year after that Lud asked me to be carrefull of the size (before, i believed my city too little!). In those times, i have deleted three cells, but like i explained, it was to late to touch the city more because all this stuff is build with hundreds connected meshes. And everybody let me pursuing that way.
Retroactivity of laws are forbidden in the democracy, you know?

Now:

I'm still waiting for arguments, i just heard "it's like that".
I see no reasons to make the five cities more little than Vivec. If i remember well, Almalexia is a 200 Int city and Vivec a 120-130 one. So, i have supposed that it was logical to keep Almalexia bigger, but not Vivec and my goal was to keep a cap of 100-130 Int. Give me a good reason and not something coming from what we like or not (to dependant of the fashion of the moment). Please don't compare BL to secondary cities like Stonefalls, Old Ebonhearth, Kogo Tell, the five must stay clearly bigger...

I even don't know what's the actual goal! Trigg and Nom1 want the city strongly cutting down (refused the Theo solution about ruins), LN, Sload and Theo seems more in the mood to adapt the things (deleting the shacks...) and Haplo, i don't know...

To be clear:
I can suppress 80% of the shacks, delete the towers on the cliff and some 20 buildings(maybee?). That let 100 Int in BL, with some quite big.
That's the only cutting down i can accept, for two reasons, first, it's very difficult to touch technically this work, second, if i touch more, all the concepts the city is build around will become illogical, it will be another city (i have try for Lud one year ago!).
Don't believe that somebody else will fix it, not that the guys aren't good enough but it's one year of a very fucking work on the concept of another modder , who will have this patience... It will be revoked and revoked and...

Ok, it let three possibilities:

.I can start a complete new city (the solution i prefer)
.I can cutting down BL, but no more than i said. It must be clear that the city will stay bigger that what somes expects. And i want the decision to be definitive, a yes or a no, but definitive.
.If not, revoke. (and be sure that i will send no updates, i don't want a half BL and will not give my name to such a bullshit.)

Conclusion:
Only the second solution can preserve BL, or a ghost of BL. Honestly, if i don't stop modding, i prefer the first.

Anyway, for me, it's two years of work lost.
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

number 2. Blacklight is an awesomesawce city and a great concept and I want to preserve as much as possible off it. Rebuilding it all would waist tons of work and stress this situation even more. You are one of the best modders we have and I certainly don’t want to loose you. However, if you feel that you can create a better Blackling by rebuilding it entirely I wont stop you. I just want this to be settled in a way that we can all live with.
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Post by kebra »

"I just want this to be settled in a way that we can all live with."
Good argument, the only reason.

I have cut a bit the city down:
The yellow: the delete buildings
The blue: the delete shaks
The red: what can be still deleted

It's 18 buildings in less (some bigs) and maybee 20 shaks. To be honest the city is better after this adaptation.
It will not fix the size problem, i can gain 30 buildings by ruining them, but the structures will stay.

Do i pursue that way knowing it will not redduce BL, or, do i give up?
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Post by Haplo »

Attached below is what we hope will work for you... it allows you to save even more of your work than what you proposed.

Here's a descriptive key for the image:
Dots overwritten in Green (or areas circled in green) = keep them

Dots in yellow or purple = delete as planned

The white arrow is suggesting that, after deleting all the yellow or purple dots, you move that gateway to where the arrow is pointing to better accommodate/fit the new layout of the city.
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Post by kebra »

The work is done:

About your proposure,
That's exactly the problem, the side districts of the north make the city big, but are the most interesting part of BL.
I will not delete the 2 northern buildings(up on the map), for those up-left, i have to see if it's possible to make a balcony instead of the buildings, but i thinck so(if not:ruins), the 2 left-down are also a problem, i would like to keep the little square down of the stairs, i have to see... But the city musn't be cut by empty, natural areas.

I have already adapted my proposition, the arrival district is delete and the entry is now by the tower bridge:

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2413/blnewentry1hr4.jpg

I propose to keep the things like i did and delete, in more, the terrasse buildings(up-left) and adapt the one of the square. Just, i will not touch the district near the harbor(Thief area) for technical and logical reasons.
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Post by Gnomey »

By the way, have you kept a version of BL before it was cut down? I know it isn't finished, but it would be a shame to completely get rid of all of that work. (And I wouldn't mind visiting it... :wink:)
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Post by Theo »

This is looking very reasonable and still very good. With some interiors being ruined and plenty being abandoned, the NPC count can be kept low. I have also some tips for you:

You still can put overhangs, platforms, ropebridges, urns, baskets and dock pieces on place of the shack village - thus creating slums without increasing number of the interiors.

The SE location with building that will be deleted can be turned into ruined marketplace or plaza with statues. Also a ruined part of the fort could be placed there.
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Post by kebra »

Thanks,

Don't worry Gnomey, i kept maybe 15 versions of BL. You can download this one which is not too far from the last, i have fixed a lot of things from this one, but it's technical and you would not notice the changes.
Anyway, the new one is not too different.

Theo, i was planning to do such things, only the market is impossible; one is located just further under the big doors. For the shacks, i let some of them with a wooden path.
The S-E district is not ruined, it's, in my mind, an isolated district reserved for the clergymen(?). I just have deleted some of the buildings and opened the Imp fortress to the city.

Waiting for the Core descision...
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Post by Gnomey »

By the way, I'm not sure whether this is the right place to post it, but is there an unplundered Dwemer Ruin near Blacklight? Hrundi mentiond it after you do a quest for him in Nchurdamz.
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Post by kebra »

Yes, in -19,9 and -18,9.
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

we (core) think you are doing great on the reduction so far. could you please post a file with these changes so that we can check it out in game and stuff?

also, lets adress the issue of Cormaris View. curently the city takes up 2 cells, wich is fine. the city could easily be reduced to one cell though since its kind of in the middle of those 2 cells. its design is also OK -- a bit on the bland side but OK. haplo and me agree that the city should be left mostly as it is, but you may want to do some minor editing and stuff. i dont think it should be entierly redone since its a good city alredy. the vvardenfell-esque "blandness" of the city is infact a good thing, not all of our cities should be fubar interesting creations (it would detract from those that are).
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Post by Jedak »

It should be between two cells. Suran. Khuul. On the map we don't want Comaris view to look smaller than Khuul. Thats just dumb.
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Post by Sload »

I thought that like people with "TR Modder" under a name that isn't "kebra" weren't going to be like posting in this thread or something?
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Post by Haplo »

Jedak does pose a good point, and I agree with him. It's one of the few cities shown on older morrowind concept maps which means it is a real city, like balmora, not some shacktown like khuul.
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Post by Jedak »

I didn't post about Blacklight. That is the core's and Kebra's issue and against my own wish will stay that way.

But I do believe I have a right to have a say about Comaris View.
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Post by kebra »

I will send the esp soon, i have delete the upper-left buildings and turn some others to hide the doors.
A list of what could make problems (Lore, feeling...) is to come before to really restart the work.

About Cormaris,
Is that mean that i'm in charge to detail Cormaris?

If yes, i propose:
I agree about Cormaris, it must stay a detailing work. The only illogical thing is this lonely tower and big wall, i would like turning it in a real Hlaalu fort. Also, the squarry plantation(?) should be deleted or adapted.
About the countryside, i would like detailing all the area from BL to Cormaris and to the Dwemer ruins. A big hunted marsh with a ruined ghostly village north of BL.
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

yes, you can detail cormaris. what i was saying is that it dosent need to be deleated and restarded from scratch. since this is your claim you should also detail the wildreness cells. the ghost village sounds interesting, as long as its small (1 cell). otherwise im thinkin' that this area might get a bit too cramped with coolness.

the whole "no people posting" ban is lifted, since the blacklight issue is settled.
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Post by kebra »

Some pics of what have been changed:

The number of buildings destroy unfortunatly don't change really the city, but it will be more clear with the esp (end of the week).

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/4356/blnew5dh8.jpg
This is the new main entry. I have expanded one of the buildings to make a fortress and deleted all the arrival district.

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2286/blnew6ri4.jpg
The religious private district is still alive with some houses and the cliff towers in less. A door is now opening to the Imp fortress. I still have to adapt the cliff(rocks).

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9504/blnew7rm7.jpg
The shaks, 20 have been deleted but some 10-15 remain. Tell me if it's to much. I will devellope the Theo's idea and covering the water of rubbish, wooden pieces...

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6642/newbl5sm6.jpg
The north-left balcony, 5 entry have been deleted but i kept the tower to the bridge and opened it to the district. Some homless could squat around if accepted.

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6220/blnew3vz5.jpg
The building in the centre-left is the new arrival point on the acropolis from the entry district tower.

And some buildings all over the city.
Now i will send the esp at the end of the week, waiting for some descision and go back to Map2.
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Post by Haplo »

Those screenshots look great! I can't wait to check out the .esp :-) And regarding Cormaris and the tower; what do you mean by a real fort? Add walls and section it off from the rest of the town? Or move it away from the town and create a buffer between the wilderness and the town?
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[06/19/2012 04:15AM] +Cat table stabbing is apparently a really popular sport in morrowind

[August 29, 2014 04:05PM] <+Katze> I am writing an IRC bot! :O
[August 29, 2014 04:25PM] *** Katze has quit IRC: Z-Lined
kebra
Developer
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Location: ithil

Post by kebra »

A new little mutation, is that Ok?

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8527/blnew8my2.jpg

For Cormaris, i was thincking to add something like in Kogomar, and inside the actual borders.
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Bloodthirsty Crustacean
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

All of this stuff looks brilliant in the extreme, IMO.

And I really like the potential for great characters in here. :)
a man builds a city
with
Banks and Cathedrals
a man melts the sand so he
can see the world outside


"They destroyed Morrowind? Fiddlesticks! Now we're going to have to rebuild it again!"
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Thrignar Fraxix
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

just want to mention something I forgot to say when doing a check over of your city a while ago. You do know that the green scum is only visible on one side and does not actually behave as water right? (I noticed when I checked before that you had green over an entire lake that was deeper than the player)

Lakes of green are fine as long as they aren't deep enough to allow the player to swim.
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Morrowind Reviews: 1640
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The just man frowns, but never sneers. We can understand anger, but not malevolence - Victor Hugo, Les Miserables

The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power - Brutus, Julius Caesar

Fun is bad - Haplo
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