An examination of the prophecy of Oddfrid White-Lip
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An examination of the prophecy of Oddfrid White-Lip
my fellow lore historians and reserchers. My reserch into the prophecycy of Oddfrid White-Lip in Bloodmoon has lead me on many a merry jaunt to the vastness of the empirial library, and as much as I can tell there are several different possibilities as to the nature of the profetic statements. however, let us first recant the prophecy in its (very short) entirety
When the dragon dies, the Empire dies.
Where is the lost dragon's blood, the Empire's sire?
And from the womb of the void, who shall stem the blood tide?
the division of this prophecy may have important information concerning this prophecy. (let us assume it has nothing to do with tes4; a logical assumtion since it is your future... and oblivion will be from a different persons view) the above structure may not be the acurate structure of the prophecy
When the dragon dies,
the Empire dies.
Where is the lost dragon's blood,
the Empire's sire?
And from the womb of the void,
who shall stem the blood tide?
this division is important as we must discern weither dragon blood and empire's sire both refer to the same thing -- also this is simply the more even prose structure for the poetic form of the prophecy.
first we need to establish exactly how much time has passed between the major Elder Scrolls games, and the current events, judging from my own interpretation of the books and other sources I estimate that the events with numidium ("Daggerfall") were a recent event in history for "morrowind", with Uriel's imprisonment ("arena") being further in the past, (obvious since Helseth is fifteen when Barenziah uncovers the plot that was the main quest in "arena") so whe have all three of the "elder Scrolls" events happening well within the span of a single human life span, perhaps no more than thirty years.
Let us look now at each line of the the prophetic prose in turn
When the dragon dies,
the Empire dies.
these may be read together as there statement is quite clear at least on the surface, the obvious conotation is that of Uriel Septim being the only thing really holding the empire together, and that with his death it will fall, however it may also refer to the Akatosh the God-dragon - this is unlikely and also very disconcerting as Akatosh is also the focus for all other divine spirits i.e. his presence aids in there exsistance... however, further examination will remind us that Akatosh's key aspect is that of time, so it is possible that "the dragon" is actually a cryptic reference to time and that it is in fact saying the empire (in some form - ie not nesisarily in the form we are familiar with) will always exist. Indeed, it most likely is a double prophecy that speaks with the same words, both of what will happen if disaster strikes, or if it is averted
Where is the lost dragon's blood
this is one of the most cryptic passages of the prophecy, as its interpretation is greatly dependent on the view of what dragon means in the previous portion of the prose. however, as i believe that this line and the line below it are speaking of seperate things, this line lends creedence to the dragon refering to Akatosh. if this is the case however, what on earth is his "lost blood?" Remember that Akatosh's establishment assisted the other divine entities in there establishment. it is possible that "dragon's Blood" is an atempt to link the other entities of oblivion to him. what then are the lost blood? two possibilites exist, Lorkhan, and the daedra. Lorkan is removed from oblivion with the formation of the mortal world, the daedra distance them selves from the world's creation. I will speak more on this later
the Empire's sire?
while certainly part of the same question, it is not in my opinion the same thing as the dragons blood, and is by far the most cryptic passage in the prophecy. sire is the key word here, and also the crux of the de-cyphering of the prohpecy. why you ask? well depending on the conotation, sire can refer both to the parent, or to the child. this abiguos nature is of course the nature of the prophetic, however, i believe it speaks of an ofspring in this instance, not of a founder, as that would be past tence and thus utterly unimportant to a portent of things to come. It most likely speaks of Uriel's heirs, who were most likely replaced during Tharns imprisonment of the emperor. the question then comes up were did the real sons go, and what happened to them, obviously killing them wouldnt have worked -- it wouldnt do to have someone find a corpse of the heir while the fake is alive in the palace, very suspicious --, so most likely they were imprisoned under false names and the doplegangers placed (as both insurance of loyalty and as a contengency plan against uriels release.) again I will speak of my own speculations on this later.
And from the womb of the void,
this seems to be a cyrptic ine but it is not, while it seems to speak of oblivion, remember that womb means birth the womb of oblivion is Lorkhan's mortal realm and when read as such along with the next line is a fairly straight forward statement of roughly "who on earth can save the world"
who shall stem the blood tide?
again the second half of the save the world statment. as a note here stem does not refer to plant imagery here, it refers to the process of stoping a leak or flow.
now let us return to the ridle of Akatosh's blood. I am under the inclination to believe that this is a reference to the daedra, as it seems to be a call to the "blood" to act" and it seems douptful Lorkhan would need any prodding to save "himself"
now on to the largest mystery in the prophecy, and one that i must admit now goes into the realm of speculation. We can be fairly certain that Uriel's sons were imprisoned (age unknown) durring the events of "arena" they most-likely languished in the imperial prison for the rest of there lives... I must now call back the understanding that this is a prophecy of "your" (the main characters) future, and that s/he was born to "uncertain parents" in a prison (born in the prison seems odd, but that is what the documents seem to say) it is posible, that one of Uriel's heirs was the character's father, remember, the child will look like the mother if men and mer mix- and althogh argonian/kahjit-men joinings have not been explained... let us remember that Azura had a vested intrest in your being alive and as daedra are able to bend the rules of creation, she could have assisted in ensuring your birth.
the prophecy as a whole then, if viewed this way seems to be declaring a call to arms both to the Daedra and to the Character, Nerevar-in-soul, heir-in-blood, to act against something that threatens to end the eternal empire
note- i am well aware there is no concrete lore to suport my asertion of the main character being the heir to the throne, this is pure speculation... but it does and a nice plot twist. also this provides a very lorkhan-esque duality to the main character, who is through no choice of his own, the greatest symbols both for and against the empire's rule
~Blackclaw~
When the dragon dies, the Empire dies.
Where is the lost dragon's blood, the Empire's sire?
And from the womb of the void, who shall stem the blood tide?
the division of this prophecy may have important information concerning this prophecy. (let us assume it has nothing to do with tes4; a logical assumtion since it is your future... and oblivion will be from a different persons view) the above structure may not be the acurate structure of the prophecy
When the dragon dies,
the Empire dies.
Where is the lost dragon's blood,
the Empire's sire?
And from the womb of the void,
who shall stem the blood tide?
this division is important as we must discern weither dragon blood and empire's sire both refer to the same thing -- also this is simply the more even prose structure for the poetic form of the prophecy.
first we need to establish exactly how much time has passed between the major Elder Scrolls games, and the current events, judging from my own interpretation of the books and other sources I estimate that the events with numidium ("Daggerfall") were a recent event in history for "morrowind", with Uriel's imprisonment ("arena") being further in the past, (obvious since Helseth is fifteen when Barenziah uncovers the plot that was the main quest in "arena") so whe have all three of the "elder Scrolls" events happening well within the span of a single human life span, perhaps no more than thirty years.
Let us look now at each line of the the prophetic prose in turn
When the dragon dies,
the Empire dies.
these may be read together as there statement is quite clear at least on the surface, the obvious conotation is that of Uriel Septim being the only thing really holding the empire together, and that with his death it will fall, however it may also refer to the Akatosh the God-dragon - this is unlikely and also very disconcerting as Akatosh is also the focus for all other divine spirits i.e. his presence aids in there exsistance... however, further examination will remind us that Akatosh's key aspect is that of time, so it is possible that "the dragon" is actually a cryptic reference to time and that it is in fact saying the empire (in some form - ie not nesisarily in the form we are familiar with) will always exist. Indeed, it most likely is a double prophecy that speaks with the same words, both of what will happen if disaster strikes, or if it is averted
Where is the lost dragon's blood
this is one of the most cryptic passages of the prophecy, as its interpretation is greatly dependent on the view of what dragon means in the previous portion of the prose. however, as i believe that this line and the line below it are speaking of seperate things, this line lends creedence to the dragon refering to Akatosh. if this is the case however, what on earth is his "lost blood?" Remember that Akatosh's establishment assisted the other divine entities in there establishment. it is possible that "dragon's Blood" is an atempt to link the other entities of oblivion to him. what then are the lost blood? two possibilites exist, Lorkhan, and the daedra. Lorkan is removed from oblivion with the formation of the mortal world, the daedra distance them selves from the world's creation. I will speak more on this later
the Empire's sire?
while certainly part of the same question, it is not in my opinion the same thing as the dragons blood, and is by far the most cryptic passage in the prophecy. sire is the key word here, and also the crux of the de-cyphering of the prohpecy. why you ask? well depending on the conotation, sire can refer both to the parent, or to the child. this abiguos nature is of course the nature of the prophetic, however, i believe it speaks of an ofspring in this instance, not of a founder, as that would be past tence and thus utterly unimportant to a portent of things to come. It most likely speaks of Uriel's heirs, who were most likely replaced during Tharns imprisonment of the emperor. the question then comes up were did the real sons go, and what happened to them, obviously killing them wouldnt have worked -- it wouldnt do to have someone find a corpse of the heir while the fake is alive in the palace, very suspicious --, so most likely they were imprisoned under false names and the doplegangers placed (as both insurance of loyalty and as a contengency plan against uriels release.) again I will speak of my own speculations on this later.
And from the womb of the void,
this seems to be a cyrptic ine but it is not, while it seems to speak of oblivion, remember that womb means birth the womb of oblivion is Lorkhan's mortal realm and when read as such along with the next line is a fairly straight forward statement of roughly "who on earth can save the world"
who shall stem the blood tide?
again the second half of the save the world statment. as a note here stem does not refer to plant imagery here, it refers to the process of stoping a leak or flow.
now let us return to the ridle of Akatosh's blood. I am under the inclination to believe that this is a reference to the daedra, as it seems to be a call to the "blood" to act" and it seems douptful Lorkhan would need any prodding to save "himself"
now on to the largest mystery in the prophecy, and one that i must admit now goes into the realm of speculation. We can be fairly certain that Uriel's sons were imprisoned (age unknown) durring the events of "arena" they most-likely languished in the imperial prison for the rest of there lives... I must now call back the understanding that this is a prophecy of "your" (the main characters) future, and that s/he was born to "uncertain parents" in a prison (born in the prison seems odd, but that is what the documents seem to say) it is posible, that one of Uriel's heirs was the character's father, remember, the child will look like the mother if men and mer mix- and althogh argonian/kahjit-men joinings have not been explained... let us remember that Azura had a vested intrest in your being alive and as daedra are able to bend the rules of creation, she could have assisted in ensuring your birth.
the prophecy as a whole then, if viewed this way seems to be declaring a call to arms both to the Daedra and to the Character, Nerevar-in-soul, heir-in-blood, to act against something that threatens to end the eternal empire
note- i am well aware there is no concrete lore to suport my asertion of the main character being the heir to the throne, this is pure speculation... but it does and a nice plot twist. also this provides a very lorkhan-esque duality to the main character, who is through no choice of his own, the greatest symbols both for and against the empire's rule
~Blackclaw~
~the call of Lore is one of reflection and empowerment, by learning of those who came before, the hero seeks to draw himself to even higher goals
Re: An examination of the prophecy of Oddfrid White-Lip
Well that is exactly the point of this dialogue. When they were making Bloodmoon they were already working on Oblivion and had this questline thought up. This dialogue refers to the gates of Oblivion opening up when the Emperor (the Dragon) dies. And you have to find the lost heir (lost Dragon's blood) te close the gates (stem the blood tide).daemos blackclaw wrote:let us assume it has nothing to do with tes4; a logical assumtion since it is your future... and oblivion will be from a different persons view
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Re: An examination of the prophecy of Oddfrid White-Lip
Vegor wrote:Well that is exactly the point of this dialogue. When they were making Bloodmoon they were already working on Oblivion and had this questline thought up. This dialogue refers to the gates of Oblivion opening up when the Emperor (the Dragon) dies. And you have to find the lost heir (lost Dragon's blood) te close the gates (stem the blood tide).daemos blackclaw wrote:let us assume it has nothing to do with tes4; a logical assumtion since it is your future... and oblivion will be from a different persons view
perhaps... but the thing about prophecy is that it is fluid. anyway, i was just showing how we could include the prophecy without having to mess with oblivion (the game obvioulsly not the place) also it is part of a larger prediction conserning the player character's views. and while it does certainly refer to the next elder scrolls game. it is possible for a design team to put in tidbits that are there to mislead us. also although the plot of oblivion is to find the heir, no reference is made to the fact that it is Uriel's heir... although that is certainly the logical assumtion. personally though i dont think it is uriel, reson? the emperor in oblivion will be assassinated, Uriel is sick and dying already - no need to over excert yourself getting rid of him
at any rate my porpose was to explain the prophecy within morrowind - without refering to other games yet to come
~the call of Lore is one of reflection and empowerment, by learning of those who came before, the hero seeks to draw himself to even higher goals
You're overinterpreting the obvious. aedra don't live in oblivion, only daedra. the player is not the heir, saying interaction with the character who is the heir is a part of the storyline.
arena took place when uriel septim was in his 40's, oblivion(and morrowind) are when hes in his 80's. that would mean less than 10 years after morrowind(did he specifically say how old he was in the video?) and a span of 40 years between tes1 and 4.
arena took place when uriel septim was in his 40's, oblivion(and morrowind) are when hes in his 80's. that would mean less than 10 years after morrowind(did he specifically say how old he was in the video?) and a span of 40 years between tes1 and 4.
"There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact, it's all dark."
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well put dexter, and as to his statement about the player character -- i am well aware the PC isnt the heir, that last part was just some speculation on my part. and even if we look at is as being of oblivion (the game) my interpritation still works. (minus the player character being the heir -- although judging from plot twists bethesda has used in the past... who knows)Dexter wrote:Says who?Eraser wrote:aedra don't live in oblivion, only daedra.
~the call of Lore is one of reflection and empowerment, by learning of those who came before, the hero seeks to draw himself to even higher goals
plot twists? it was really obvious you were nerevarine in morrowind. daggerfall, the main plot just got lost in the rest of the games thousands of quests.
as for daedra and aedra, the aedra and daedra were formed from anu and padomay's blood and are completely different beings. daedra are immortal, returning to oblivion on being "killed", while aedra can be killed. the aedra residing in oblivion simply makes so sense, and read somewhere that after lorkhan's "trick" to create the mortal plane, the aedra are directly tied to it.
as for daedra and aedra, the aedra and daedra were formed from anu and padomay's blood and are completely different beings. daedra are immortal, returning to oblivion on being "killed", while aedra can be killed. the aedra residing in oblivion simply makes so sense, and read somewhere that after lorkhan's "trick" to create the mortal plane, the aedra are directly tied to it.
"There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact, it's all dark."
The Book of Daedra says this:
Also, The Maruhkati are the Aedra says:
If you are so sure they do not, then where do they live?
If their power was sucked into the mortal world, they couldn't have been there in the first place. They must have been on another plane.One of the Aedra, Lorkhan tricked all the Aedra to create a mortal world by taking some of their essence. This proves disastrous as in the process a great deal of their power is sucked into the mortal world, leaving most of them mortal, and powerless.
Also, The Maruhkati are the Aedra says:
No Morrowind books say it outright (because Aedra are not worshipped in Morrowind), but it seems to me that the Aedra do live in Oblivion.The falling of the eight stars, the stars as you may recall are holes in Oblivion that allow you to see Aetherious, coincide with the number of Aedra and their "falling" signifies a change from their original state, a corruption if you will.
If you are so sure they do not, then where do they live?
"Hail Dexter."
-Yinnie
You REALLY don't want me to come back.
-Yinnie
You REALLY don't want me to come back.
Well your first point that they should have been somewhere else when it was created is correct in some way (because you can't be somewhere if your powers are sucked to there from where you are now), but of course this was before the creation of the mortal plane and therefor they couldn't have been in there to start with (you can't be somewhere that's yet to be created). That pretty much invalidates it as an argument for them living or not living in Oblivion.
I am pretty sure they are part of the mortal plane now and therefor live in it. They do not live in Oblivion, I am pretty sure of that. Oblivion is the plane that has no relevance to anything whatsoever and is basically pure chaos with no order at all. Aedra represent order and won't ever want to be there as they despise chaos.
I am pretty sure they are part of the mortal plane now and therefor live in it. They do not live in Oblivion, I am pretty sure of that. Oblivion is the plane that has no relevance to anything whatsoever and is basically pure chaos with no order at all. Aedra represent order and won't ever want to be there as they despise chaos.
That's an interesting point. The second bit I posted seems to suggest that they lived in Oblivion for some time, however. But the thing I can't wrap my head around is that the Nine Divines, knowing full well that they are mortal gods, would choose to live on a place as dangerous as Nirn. Could there be another plane they live on?
"Hail Dexter."
-Yinnie
You REALLY don't want me to come back.
-Yinnie
You REALLY don't want me to come back.
I might be the only one who takes the entire TES cosmology FAQ, but you have to admit that this is the only reference to the location of the Aedra that we have.
So each of the Aedra (Divines) has their own plane, similar to how the Daedra have sub-planes in Oblivion. They are their spheres which are their planes which are infinite and which are magical and impossible.The planets are the gods and the planes of the gods, which is the same thing. That they appear as spherical heavenly bodies is a visual phenomena caused by mortal mental stress. Since each plane(t) is an infinite mass of infinite size, as yet surrounded by the Void of Oblivion, the mortal eye registers them as bubbles within a space. Planets are magical and impossible. The eight planets correspond to the Eight Divines. They are all present on the Dwarven Orrery, along with the mortal planet, Nirn.
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Sload Lord wrote:I might be the only one who takes the entire TES cosmology FAQ, but you have to admit that this is the only reference to the location of the Aedra that we have.
note that these individual planes are IN oblivionThe planets are the gods and the planes of the gods, which is the same thing. That they appear as spherical heavenly bodies is a visual phenomena caused by mortal mental stress. Since each plane(t) is an infinite mass of infinite size, as yet surrounded by the Void of Oblivion, the mortal eye registers them as bubbles within a space. Planets are magical and impossible. The eight planets correspond to the Eight Divines. They are all present on the Dwarven Orrery, along with the mortal planet, Nirn.
So each of the Aedra (Divines) has their own plane, similar to how the Daedra have sub-planes in Oblivion. They are their spheres which are their planes which are infinite and which are magical and impossible.
~the call of Lore is one of reflection and empowerment, by learning of those who came before, the hero seeks to draw himself to even higher goals
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yes, obviously this means that Oblivion is more than a underworld but more of the elder scrolls equivelent of the D&D astral planeSload Lord wrote:So is Nirn.
Last edited by daemos blackclaw on Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
~the call of Lore is one of reflection and empowerment, by learning of those who came before, the hero seeks to draw himself to even higher goals
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Um..it's not an underworld and will never be an underworld. Reference to it being "Hell" are reference to how evil the Imperials make out the Daedra to be.daemos blackclaw wrote:yes, obviously this means that Oblivion is more than a underworld but more of the elder scrolls equivelent of the D&D astral planeSload Lord wrote:So is Nirn.
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i am well aware of that, sloadlord, however it is sometimes worth repeating that its not one, my point was that its more like an astral plane, a connecting plane between the individual realms. including nirnSload Lord wrote:Um..it's not an underworld and will never be an underworld. Reference to it being "Hell" are reference to how evil the Imperials make out the Daedra to be.daemos blackclaw wrote:yes, obviously this means that Oblivion is more than a underworld but more of the elder scrolls equivelent of the D&D astral planeSload Lord wrote:So is Nirn.
~the call of Lore is one of reflection and empowerment, by learning of those who came before, the hero seeks to draw himself to even higher goals
You say it like you don't know and then state that you do. Here's a drawing of Oblivion. I wouldn't know if it was like the "Astral Plane" or not.
Note: The planets, moons, Nirn, Oblivion, and Magick Plane are all infinite. The Magick Plane surrounds Oblivion which surrounds Nirn, the planets, and the moons.
EDIT: I can't attatch images, I will when/if this is moved to lore discussion.
Note: The planets, moons, Nirn, Oblivion, and Magick Plane are all infinite. The Magick Plane surrounds Oblivion which surrounds Nirn, the planets, and the moons.
EDIT: I can't attatch images, I will when/if this is moved to lore discussion.
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i guess i did say it like i didnt know... sorry, my typing is often incoherent (I have Disgraphia and often write sentences that dont meant what im trying to say if im not thinking about it)
Edit: the first post here took seveeral hours to write, as i tried to remove all my incoherencies from it
Edit: and reading back over it now I see even more errors and problems... oh well
Edit (see what i mean) In D&D the astral plane connects the Material plane to the outer realms of the dieties and other extraplaner entities it is both a plane unto itself, and a void between planes
Edit: the first post here took seveeral hours to write, as i tried to remove all my incoherencies from it
Edit: and reading back over it now I see even more errors and problems... oh well
Edit (see what i mean) In D&D the astral plane connects the Material plane to the outer realms of the dieties and other extraplaner entities it is both a plane unto itself, and a void between planes
~the call of Lore is one of reflection and empowerment, by learning of those who came before, the hero seeks to draw himself to even higher goals
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ok then Vegor let me put it another way, in GREYHAWK'S cosmology there is somthing similar to oblivion called the astral plain.
as an aside... does the core know that the link to download the mp3 of the theme for TR seems to not be working?
as an aside... does the core know that the link to download the mp3 of the theme for TR seems to not be working?
~the call of Lore is one of reflection and empowerment, by learning of those who came before, the hero seeks to draw himself to even higher goals
I'm pretty sure Aetherius and Oblivion are two completely separate realms. They have always been phrased as two distinct places, and their nature and denizens are completely different. I'm not entirely sure if the Aedra are still in Aetherius, but I'm pretty sure they aren't hanging around on Nirn all the time. They still are bound to the material in some way, as a result of their falling, or their creation of the material world, however you decide to view it.