On permissions and other things

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:35 pm

There are a few proposals regarding viewing/posting permissions in the claims browser that I'd like to make that have been bandied about for a while. These are all pretty simple, so I'm sure nobody will have any problem with them.

1)Make the unclaimed part of ints and exes viewable only to TR modders. (It's stupid to have to keep telling non-modder sthat they can't claim stuff)

2)Make the claimed sections of each part of the browser visible to all, so that random visitors will be able to see how we work and get a taste of what we're about. I would also propose that they get the ability to post there too, as positive feedback is great for progress, making people work faster and happier, etc, etc This might also encourage more people to apply for moddership, as they see what it involves.

3)Make the reviewing sections visible to TR modders. Now that all modders are vetted, we don't need to be as worried about offending people. Our modders are mature enough to see the criticism that is made of their work.

4) (A minor one) Give mods the ability to post straight in Quests:Unclaimed. I can still get quests into there, it just takes lots of tedious button pressing.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:45 pm

The first two re definitely good ideas and would be quite helpful. Idea 3 is okay but I don't think it matters too muc either way. I suppose it could help a modder get started a little faster on fixes, but I'm not sure what else would benefit from it.

Number 4 is also a pretty good idea. All our modders rightnow are probably responsible enough not to cause problemswith this.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:36 pm

i still dont agree with opening reviews. call me old facioned. ive presented my arguments before, chiefly that it would serve no purpose what so ever to modders and that we (reviewers) would get nagged and complaied at more then usual.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:30 pm

Ideas one and two are good.

I don't like the idea of three though. The reviewing process should be impartial and not something to have a debate about. Also if people don't like the review they are given (ie; a revokeable or absolutely horrible int) it would be best if they didn't know who actually gave that review so they can't abuse or tirade the reviewer.

I'll like idea four for you, although I have absolutely no idea what it is about

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:30 pm

Nomadic1 wrote: I'll like idea four for you, although I have absolutely no idea what it is about

At the moment, only Administrators can post straight into the Quests:unclaimed forum. GMs should also be able to put questlines that have been written and are ready for claiming here.

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:03 pm

I like especially the second idea. Giving people information how the mod is going on is very helpful. If people can see the progress we're making they will be much more interested in the future releases and perhaps try to be a modder themselves. The comments people have might not be that useful, but it's always nice if someone can see your work and appreciate it.

Starcrunch · Post by **Starcrunch** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:16 am

Ideas 1, 2, and 4 seem sound. I think reviewing works best if the reviewers can work from anonymity and the HoR serves as a buffer. Yes the stuff TR members make now is better, but nobody likes to be humiliated by being publicly told that they had 37 floaters, 13 bleeders, 5 lore violations and so on, and so forth. Many reviewers would also feel queasy about pointing out nitpicky things that they leave to the discretion of the HoR if their posts were made public.

-Starcrunch

angelus6 · Post by **angelus6** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:07 am

y'see, i really like idea 3 as i'd love to know what is said rather than having to ask TF all teh time what's been said and what needs fixing as i can fix my interiors a lot quicker than reviewers with a heavy workload. Surely making the review board open to modders is a great way for them to realise any mistakes with their work and give them a good oppurtunity to fix anything required rather than bogging reviewers down with 20 interiors that need fixing all with 10 minor problems in then...

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:28 am

1)Make the unclaimed part of ints and exes viewable only to TR modders. (It's stupid to have to keep telling non-modder sthat they can't claim stuff)

I could have sworn Haplo took care of that. If he didn't, I agree.

2)Make the claimed sections of each part of the browser visible to all, so that random visitors will be able to see how we work and get a taste of what we're about. I would also propose that they get the ability to post there too, as positive feedback is great for progress, making people work faster and happier, etc, etc This might also encourage more people to apply for moddership, as they see what it involves.

I don't want people spamming up the browser from outside the modder base. Claims with more then one page are a pain in the as as it is already. We can open them up to be seen, though.

3)Make the reviewing sections visible to TR modders. Now that all modders are vetted, we don't need to be as worried about offending people. Our modders are mature enough to see the criticism that is made of their work.

Maybe for THEIR claims, yes. If I (or anyone else) made a dumb-ass mistake and Thrig chewed me out about it (which he should, seeing my position,) I wouldn't want the rest of the team seeing what was said.

And, can modders see finished? Nevermind, they can't see what was posted during the review phase, I don't think.

4) (A minor one) Give mods the ability to post straight in Quests:Unclaimed. I can still get quests into there, it just takes lots of tedious button pressing.

Sure.

Andres Indoril · Post by **Andres Indoril** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:08 am

I agree with 1 and 4. I don't like 2 because I need no spammers attack peoples claims and I don't like the idea of reviewing boards being open too, because we might get those "When is this gonna get reviewed?" messages a little too often. But, heh, that's just my opinion.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:57 am

I support all four of these. I've proposed the first three a number of times, and no one's ever objected to the first two, they just never were implemented. I think modders shouldn't take reviews so personally. Everyone makes mistakes. Even the Sload.

Even the Sload guys.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:11 am

I support all 4.

on 3, people already had their mistakes pointed out in the showcase, let them see their reviews. If they ask about the slow speed of the reviews I will point them towards the reviewer test or explain that we are all busy. (or that some ints are low priority and won't be reviewed for a while)

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:36 am

For 3, I can vividly recall a competant modder getting publically humiliated through the reviewing process. This modder spent an incredible amount of time on an interior and submitted it. It was subsequently reviewed and revoked with little fanfare. The modder wanted to know why (publically). And so the reviews were posted. One reviewer took one look at it and said revoke it. The other reviewer listed about 100 errors before stopping after a mere four rooms and saying to revoke it.

I believe that if the reviewing forum were made visible, all modders should work through an alias ("Reviewer A", "Reviewer B", etc. so they remain anonymous). Modders should also be able to see their claims only.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:40 am

Nomadic1 wrote:Modders should also be able to see their claims only.

I forgot about this idea and how much I like it

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:36 am

Agreed on 1 and 2, 4 sounds fine as well but that's your thingy

I don't think you third proposal is a good idea though. I've been HoR for quite a while and the HoRs before me and after me (Lady N, Sniper4) always agreed that this is a bad idea. Together we've been HoR for years and we've had enough experience with reviews getting public and reviewers getting bashed over it. Even as HoR I sometimes got bashed for sending reviews back to modders. Even though I soften the parts where reviewers were totally bashing the interior.

Now I know that we have a more competent modderbase these days, because of the TR modder group. However, a good modder that makes a nice interior can still be immature and easily offended. On top of that, there's no real reason for people to see it. If it's about the confusion of claims disappearing, just add an auto-PM to the modder that his claim is submitted or something similar.

groza528 · Post by **groza528** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:01 am

Forgive my "rebellious" thoughts:

In terms of number 3, I'm a quest modder in Morrowind and I know there aren't that many of us and that we've all been around for a while/come back after a hiatus. I don't see any reason why those of us in quests can't autonomously make our own policy to PM a copy of the review directly to the questmaker. If interiors or other depts don't think that would work well for them, there's no reason to force their hand, but from what I know of the questers (Ludovic, Starcrunch, El Scum) I don't think any of us are going to be at each other's throats.
I might, on the other hand, be the one who's bugging Lud about whether he's reviewed my quests yet. Sorry Lud

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:57 pm

Ludovic wrote: 1)Make the unclaimed part of ints and exes viewable only to TR modders. (It's stupid to have to keep telling non-modders that they can't claim stuff)

Done already...?

2)Make the claimed sections of each part of the browser visible to all, so that random visitors will be able to see how we work and get a taste of what we're about. I would also propose that they get the ability to post there too, as positive feedback is great for progress, making people work faster and happier, etc, etc This might also encourage more people to apply for modder-ship, as they see what it involves.

Done for registered members for now, if it becomes a problem I'll remove it. If it works great then changes'll be made for guests as well.

4) (A minor one) Give mods the ability to post straight in Quests:Unclaimed. I can still get quests into there, it just takes lots of tedious button pressing.

Done

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:00 pm

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:
Nomadic1 wrote:Modders should also be able to see their claims only.
I forgot about this idea and how much I like it

What?

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:23 pm

Modders should be able to see their claims when they are in reviewing, but only their claims.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:40 pm

That would probably be difficult.

And I still think its a stupid objection deriving from egotism which is in itself contrary to the successfullness of a group project.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:59 pm

Yes, I doubt that's even possible.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:25 am

Haplo wrote: Done for registered members for now, if it becomes a problem I'll remove it. If it works great then changes'll be made for guests as well.

Uhh Haplo, did you hit the wrong button or something? I can no longer see the unclaimed sections of the quests, exteriors, or interiors claims.

NEENJA · Post by **NEENJA** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:32 am

uhh... same.

I can't see the Design portion of Quests...so, yeah...

--the NEENJA

Post by **Haplo** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:38 am

Er... yeah. Not my fault.

But fixed anyway.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:19 am

Even if it is possible, I disagree with Thrignar and Nomadic in this. First of all, because I can't understand why a modder shoudn't view the work of others, but also because it's helpful for some. For example, I've checked a couple of esp's to get an idea about how specific things must be done. Just thought I'd mention it.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:28 am

El Scumbago wrote:Even if it is possible, I disagree with Thrignar and Nomadic in this. First of all, because I can't understand why a modder shoudn't view the work of others

Nanu Ra wrote:Maybe for THEIR claims, yes. If I (or anyone else) made a dumb-ass mistake and Thrig chewed me out about it (which he should, seeing my position,) I wouldn't want the rest of the team seeing what was said.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:50 am

Yes, also, you forgot to set view permissions for reviewers because now I can't see the Unclaimed forums

Which reminds me I should start doing reviews again.

Post by **Haplo** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:14 am

Right, that's fixed.

Tamriel Rebuilt

On permissions and other things

On permissions and other things

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