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Katse
Member
09 Oct 2003

Location: Atlantic Canada

As a lover of the arts, I think that the actors, musicians and dancers of Tamriel deserve their own guild. There is the official plugin that allows you to entertain at the Eight Plates in Balmora, and I think we should expand on that.

If anyone wants to help make new instruments (I have an encyclopedia of musical instruments from around the world, from all periods of time), it'd be greatly appreciated. In my mind, I envision small rehearsal/guild halls (most of these could be in the basements of inns or taverns--something that exists anyhow), with instruments, books of plays and elocution techniques, music compositions, costumes, props, etc. Quests would be to find and form new theatre troups, find composers and players, train dancers (acrobatic skills!), and the most important part of all, raise funds (as all artistic pursuits of this nature are grossly underfunded).

I think it'd make a great faction. Imagine finding the perfect wood for a luthier, or helping a band of performers hit it big! Any thoughts?

Katse
Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:12 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Eraser
Developer Emeritus
21 Aug 2003

Location: New York

And there's a play you can be part of in mournhold. We should expand on that, makes the world more lively.

"as I hear are all Telvanni"
"you N'wah!"
*draws sword*

Classic.

Should be fairly easy to do, trib and entertainers scripts should do well enough with some modifications. Npcs and dialogue would be the most work.

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Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:29 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Arcadea
Developer Emeritus
23 Aug 2003

Location: Milford, NH, USA

When we get to Skyrim I hope to claim the famous bard college thier. We should also make guild halls for bards to rest and right down thier tales of travel.
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Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:44 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Vagara
Member
21 Aug 2003

Location: Veranis Hall

I think a Guild of Bards is a great idea... although it would probably be an Imperial-based group, like the Fighters and Mages...

Ben

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Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:47 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Katse
Member
09 Oct 2003

Location: Atlantic Canada

I don't know which race would be the one to organize a bard guild--I was thinking it'd be more of an amalgamated effort on part of ALL the races to preserve the art form and nurture the entertainment industry. Troubadours and trouveres came from far and wide to entertain people in medieval Europe, and of love of the arts seems to exist in all races. The Nords would definitely have a rich culture in barding--the origins of runes (I read somewhere they had runes) was to tell stories (each rune signified a person, or place, or something significant to the story). I actually have a set of runes and a book explaining their meaning in storytelling--I think that could be an invaluable reference.

It's obvious the Dunmer enjoy theatre, and I believe the list given to you at Eight Plates hints at the artistic pursuits of each race (even if it's a bit vague, I remember there being a dance of some sort, comedy, etc). Seeing that I'm already working on an artisans faction, a faction for the entertainers would complete it quite well, and would definitely round out the choice of factions you can join. Not everyone needs to go off and join the army or the fighter's guild--some of us can earn our living journeying around the map, gathering songs and skills, singing in taverns and inns. Very Happy Now that's a great way to explore the world of Tamriel! Very Happy

Katse
Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:38 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Quentin Fortune
Member
21 Aug 2003

Location: Silgrad Tower, Upper Chambers 2

That is a splendid idea,

full support from an active bard (in a very vague and also very modern way Wink )

And it is almost mandatory - - in my humble opinion and with my understanding what it means to be a musician in any given world - that this guild is as various and as colourful as possible.

I strongly believe that the usual affiliations and peculiarites of races don't count that much when it comes to the travelling folk of bards and musicians ... we are a quite peculiar bunch ourselves.

And I know that 'my kind' is in good hands, Katse. Very Happy

Greetings

Quentin
Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:20 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Arcadea
Developer Emeritus
23 Aug 2003

Location: Milford, NH, USA

I don't now if you took this into acount but thier is already a bards college wouldn't it be likly that this would be were the main guild hall will be.
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Was once called the Sotha Sil of the core.
Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:51 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
sterio
Member
02 Dec 2003

Location: Iceland

What a great idea!



Quote:
Originally posted by Katse
each rune signified a person, or place, or something significant to the story


I know it is quite off-topic, pointing this out, but actually, no: Runes was a germanic way of taking letters similar to the latin ones and carving them in trees, but because they carved them into trees, they had to shape them like they did. Ok.. now I've bored you all to death haven't I? Razz
Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:00 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Katse
Member
09 Oct 2003

Location: Atlantic Canada

Runes were first used as pictograms, and then developed into an alphabet, alot like the way heiroglyphs developed into demotic. Because illliteracy was so high, the runes were used as visual aids and did not evolve into a written "language" until much later.

As for the bard college, I think that should definitely be an important gathering point for all bards and would be bards, for learning new pieces and getting new equipment. However, it can't be the only repository of artistic information, as each race has its own culture and history, and each race will need some sort of equivalent, even if it isn't that grand in stature.

Katse
Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:26 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sterio
Member
02 Dec 2003

Location: Iceland

Well, either you, or my Icelandic teacher is wrong... or she just forgot to tell us that Razz (I was learning about this in Icelandic this winter.

But I was thinking, has anybody got any idea on how you could make the PC actually "entertain" ? I mean, there has to be somebody who agrees with me that the theatre quest in mournhold was quite.. annoying. Not the attack itself, but learning all those lines just like that! (it's ok in real-life, but not in a game...) Or was I the only one who did that...?
Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:38 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Katse
Member
09 Oct 2003

Location: Atlantic Canada

Your teacher isn't wrong--the storytelling aspect of the runes is pretty closely related to the fortune telling aspect of the runes--and they don't mention that in schools, either. Wink

There is an official plugin that allows you the option to entertain at the Eight Plates in Balmora. You're given a choice of 6 or 7 different acts, and then you supposedly perform. If they enjoy your act, you get paid, and you hear applause and the disposition of the bar owner goes up. If you are really bad, they don't do anything but cough, and you don't earn any cash, and the bar owner's disposition takes a huge hit--you're pretty much prohibited from performing their again, because you're so bad.

I think this should be expanded on, and added as an option to all inns/taverns. You have to be careful who you entertain (just like in Mournhold)--your patron, or a member of the audience, might not agree with your version of entertainment and try to kill you! Smile

Katse
Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:55 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Arcadea
Developer Emeritus
23 Aug 2003

Location: Milford, NH, USA

Yes. Right now I'm trying to organise this stuff.
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I said I would return and I may have been right. The past must stay in the past as agreed. If the core needs me or has a job for me just ask for now I watch and write.

Former Moderator of the Core.
Was once called the Sotha Sil of the core.
Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:02 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Prowler
Member
25 Nov 2003

Location: Bedadras, city of dreams.

well I liked it, it was great idea of roleplay, although this should just stick whit the optiononal because theire are a lot of pepole that like the hack en slash more.
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Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:12 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
wererat
Developer
08 Nov 2003



the official MOD mentioned earlier was a huge dissapointment to me. i was hoping she would (bartender) would do high kicks and sing and stuff like that. but all i got was a handful of text . . . Sad

ive always thought of bretons as huge art fans. look at them! they look like people in old pictures an stuff . . .

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Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:54 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

I like it, but instead of just having a bards guild, why don't we have a performers guild, with smaller guilds branching off. like we could have the official performers guildhall in a huge canton-sized building, and have a guildhall for each smaller section somewhere in tamriel, like the bards guildhall can be where ever Arcadea said it was, etc. etc.

I also think the dancers and other physical activity guilds like trapeze artists and highwalkers' guildhall should be in the native lands of the Khajiit and Argonians, since they seem to be the races geared most to physical activity.

It seems likely that the Altmer where heavy on the Arts as well, since they are some-what popular in Imperial cities, and the Imperials got their culture, or the bulk of it at least, from the High Elves, and since the Altmer are so advanced and 'high', they should have extremely advanced cultures and arts, at least thats my opinion.

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Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:16 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Prowler
Member
25 Nov 2003

Location: Bedadras, city of dreams.

lol, I think cantons would be a bit to much of a good, just some traveling groups should be more then fine. You cant really sit in a guild hall if you got to preform to get some bread on the table.
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Post Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:24 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Katse
Member
09 Oct 2003

Location: Atlantic Canada

Though it will probably be called Guild of the Immortal Bard (or something equally theatrical), it won't focus JUST on bards. Dancers, singers, actors, musicians will also make use of the guild halls. As I was saying, the amount of real guild halls devoted just to this artist pursuit will be few--most of the meetings will take place in lofts or basements of inns or taverns (just the way it was done, ages ago). The few guild halls that exist, including the Bard College, will contain tons of services and information you simply can't get from your smaller guild "rooms" in small towns.

Music and the arts have been around for millenia, and are usually guarded as the most important parts of a civilization. Some ancient cults conducted their services in secrecy, and their music, hymns and passion plays were only seen by initiates. Many tombs contained beautiful instruments for the spirit in the afterlife--so there is more than enough fodder to keep the faction quests interesting to even those who only like hack and slash quests.

My hope is that the Bard Guild, and a Hunter's Guild, will form the balancing flanks of the Artisan Guild. So you have the Artisan Guild, which is almost exactly half creative/mind based quests, half grittier, violent quests. The Hunter's Guild contains almost all hack and slash quests as the PC tries to obtain important furs and other natural resources for the artisans. The Bard's Guild goes in the opposite direction of the Hunter's Guild--very little hack and slash and alot more creative/mind based quests. They form a perfect trinity, with perfect balance between them.

Anyhow, I digress. I just hope everyone will like it.

Katse
Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:06 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
wererat
Developer
08 Nov 2003



sounds really interesting to me. and how/where you will place the 'halls' seems, well, well thought out. if it is approved i think it will make the game all the more interesting.
and if youre ever short of modders for the guild just PM me . . .

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Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:12 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Prowler
Member
25 Nov 2003

Location: Bedadras, city of dreams.

Sounds ok but make sure it isnt the biggest faction in the game. Pepole might wonder for who those artis preformed, other artists? Razz
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Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:29 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Quentin Fortune
Member
21 Aug 2003

Location: Silgrad Tower, Upper Chambers 2

Quote:
Originally posted by Katse
Though it will probably be called Guild of the Immortal Bard (or something equally theatrical), it won't focus JUST on bards.
The name of it will most definitely represent a true artist's sense of drama and vanity. So your suggestion is a very good start.
Quote:
Music and the arts have been around for millenia, and are usually guarded as the most important parts of a civilization.[...]
But we shouldn't forget that those who perform these arts (especially musicians) have been usually considered to be the scum of the earth, if they hadn't generous patrons from the upper class ... then they were considered the bane of the world when they were absent. Wink ("Bring everything into the house that's not nailed down and lock your daughters away." "Why?" "Musicians are coming to town!" "Aaaaaahh ...")

*sigh* I truly love to belong to a group with such a nice reputation. Very Happy

Greetings

Quentin
Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:46 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Earl
Developer Emeritus
21 Aug 2003

Location: Dune

Quote:
Originally posted by Katse
The Nords would definitely have a rich culture in barding--the origins of runes (I read somewhere they had runes) . . .

Not only do Nords have a written language of runes, they also have sign language (Children of the Sky)

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Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:38 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Katse
Member
09 Oct 2003

Location: Atlantic Canada

Thanks for the heads up, Earl. Sign language is just another form of creative expression--but I'll try to refrain from putting mimes in the faction, I promise. Very Happy

Quentin, the entertainment business has always been shady at best. Even now, musicians and artists are killed for their creative expressions (RIP John Lennon). But it's true, as much as we're considered lower than dirt, we have quite a bit of control over our audiences. If we don't show up for a performance, we can incite riot! People need their entertainment, whether they like who provides it or not--the amazing power of creativity. Very Happy

Katse
Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:35 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Quentin Fortune
Member
21 Aug 2003

Location: Silgrad Tower, Upper Chambers 2

Quote:
Originally posted by Katse
Thanks for the heads up, Earl. Sign language is just another form of creative expression--but I'll try to refrain from putting mimes in the faction, I promise. Very Happy
To quote my favourite politician: "No mimes! Learn the words!" Wink

Quote:
Quentin, the entertainment business has always been shady at best. Even now, musicians and artists are killed for their creative expressions (RIP John Lennon). But it's true, as much as we're considered lower than dirt, we have quite a bit of control over our audiences. If we don't show up for a performance, we can incite riot! People need their entertainment, whether they like who provides it or not--the amazing power of creativity. Very Happy

Katse
I whole-heartedly agree. My remarks were meant more as suggestions that the combination of the obvious eagerness for new and exciting forms of entertainment and the obvious disregard towards those, who provide it, should be mirrored in the way this guild is set up. And of course, there are artists being regarded higher than others. Wink

Greetings

Quentin
Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:16 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hermit
Developer Emeritus
17 Oct 2003

Location: The North German plains

Wow, two days and such an amount of splendid ideas! I think all races in Tamriel have their own artists. Even gruff Dunmer - remember that ashlander in the main quest who requires a book of ashlander poetry, or the less rude song? Also, keep in mind that one of their gods (Vivec, who "writes poetry every morning" according to the 2029 series) is an artist, too, so they propably hold them in higher esteem - at least as long as they're dunmer Wink.

We should add the bards' guild to Vvardenfell as well, at least in a Bolt-on - in a place so depressing, there's really need for quality entertainment!

As for guild halls, there should be one for each province (besides the great college in Skyrim), and propably bard NPCs in all taverns, or at least most of them. Also, we could expand on Vvardenfell characters, like that bard in Seyda neen (when I met him, I hoped he'd do something else than just stand there and brag about the bard class' attributes; I mean that guy really has some potential; he might at least sing, dance and sell MW poetry!)

BTW, lookie what hermit found (it's part of my completely ignored post of web finds). Included are piano/cembalo, xylophone, drums, and a harp. All nicely done, and with sounds. Haven't checked them in-game yet, though.

Edit: I learned at school that germainc runes were originally mystical signs read by fortune tellers out of wooden sticks dropped in a specific way. Those signs, which eventually became standardised, then were carved onto rocks (menhir stones carved with runes are still a common sight in parts of Germany, France, and Scandinavia). Their meaning was eventually translated into letters, and became an aplhabet. It lost, however, against the latin alphabet, when the Frankish tribes of the Charlemagne empire forced Christianity on most germanic tribes.
The german words for letters (Buchstaben) still reflects this - it is composed of "Buche" (a common middle european tree) and "Staben", an old plural of the word "Stab", which means as much as staff, or stick. It is the same linguistic root that the english word 'book' comes from, by the way.

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Last edited by Hermit on Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:18 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Vagara
Member
21 Aug 2003

Location: Veranis Hall

Any traveling minstrels?
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Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:27 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hermit
Developer Emeritus
17 Oct 2003

Location: The North German plains

Of course, they should definitely be there, they could be scripted to change locations every month ... and one could have some ministrel characters along the road, giving little side quests (escort me to X, find my companion/item, that kind of stuff).

Anyone, what do you think of the models I posted?

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Elder Mod.

For now, I'm sleeping in my lightless city beneath the waves.

But someday ... I will be back.

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Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:35 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
wererat
Developer
08 Nov 2003



we also have to (well dont have to . . .) have the bard class have some type of advantage in the guild. maybe members like the player better or better artistic skills or whatever.
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Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:39 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Hermit
Developer Emeritus
17 Oct 2003

Location: The North German plains

We could just make most attributes and skills the class favors also required by the guild. Oh, and we could introduce a global variable called 'fame', that increases by one every time you deliver an above average performance using the 'entertain the patrons' script. That variable will be essential for progress in the guild, beyond the lower ranks. I think that could be done with scripts, but then again, I don't have too much of an idea about scripting Wink
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For now, I'm sleeping in my lightless city beneath the waves.

But someday ... I will be back.

Fthagn.
Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:50 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Prowler
Member
25 Nov 2003

Location: Bedadras, city of dreams.

it should be posible to do, might take some brain bashing though to prevent bards from singing after they have been killed or are already preforming some where else.
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Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:14 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Arcadea
Developer Emeritus
23 Aug 2003

Location: Milford, NH, USA

may I sugest contacting jon and Unifiedsleepers for the scrypts they may be able to help.
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I said I would return and I may have been right. The past must stay in the past as agreed. If the core needs me or has a job for me just ask for now I watch and write.

Former Moderator of the Core.
Was once called the Sotha Sil of the core.
Post Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:16 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Prowler
Member
25 Nov 2003

Location: Bedadras, city of dreams.

nah I want to take a shot at my selfs first.

/edit

here is the first Idea, just typed it out so it will be full of spelling errors. I also think its to complicated.


the other idea I have would be using a set of lvl creatures (whit bards) for every location whit bards, it will all place them but those that arent picked to preform are disalbed by theire own local NPC scripts.

the location script would still require an update for every new bard but missing one would not be so catastrofic you just will never see him theire.

still got to work on it though because currently if you have 3 locations pickign a bard each of those bards will preform at every location.

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Last edited by Prowler on Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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