A Call To Artists

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Sun May 27, 2007 9:46 am

Hey people, here's some nice news for us CAs. As you know, we're getting deeper and deeper into Hammerfell. Goldmoor generation is about to begin and what's left to model is mostly buildings, furniture and clutter. The goldmoor concepts-to-model list is getting thinner day by day, and we've come to a point where we can safely begin planning ahead. In fact, we have to begin planning ahead.

We'd better make an easy start though. Before we think of the next architecture sets and plants and stuff, it'd be wise to get the remaining needed GM concepts done. We need people to start brainstorming on paper about:

Clutter
Banners/insignia/emblems
Doors & windows (not LC though, they're tedious anyway. Concentrate your efforts on MC and UC, as well as Gates)

That's the top priorities. However, if you can't come up with something good for these, try the list below. Atmospherics can work fine with these, no immediate need for planar views. Get inspired.

Taneth's extra features.
Farmhouses/wilderness inns
Sand Caves
Rock Caves
Dwemer Ruins (imo, metallic plated walls rock, but you guys don't share my enthusiasm, so get me a CA here)

And a last minute note; if you're up to the task, post your work in this thread (and in your personal threads if you want, but definately here too). This is for organisational purposes, you wouldn't want the modellers to sweep through the forums in search of needed concepts.

Edit: Here's some sketches of mine, relevant to the subject.

[url=http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hammerfellcontainersje0.jpg][img]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1872/hammerfellcontainersje0.th.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hammerfellstuff1pl4.jpg][img]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2681/hammerfellstuff1pl4.th.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hfclutter1tw.jpg][img]http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9417/hfclutter1tw.th.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clutterpr1.jpg][img]http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2151/clutterpr1.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:44 am

For banners/insignia/emblems, do you mean like how the cities in Cyrodiil had their own symbol?

Also, are the Dwemer ruins still being restricted into the number of 5-6? If yes, we don't need to worry about them for the time being since lore already has mentioned five elsewhere, and IMO it would be nice to save the sixth for Hews Bane so there is at least something interesting there.

Are there going to be any Redguard ruins around the place, like olf forts and villages? What about warrior monasteries amd temples in the wilderness?

For clutter, it would be good if we a few everyday things made out of legendary or exotic materials. For example, orichalcum (a purple metal from Greek history/myth, which in Tamriel has been taken from Yokuda by Redguards for centuries to make moolah) spoons, figurines, bowls and the occasional weapon.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:52 am

Since it's not been decided whether we'll need monasteries or special redguard ruins (and what kind of ruins), dwemer are the next best thing, since most people know a couple of things about them.
As for banners/insignia/emblems, yes, that's the idea. I don't know in what form will the emblem of a city be presented (flag/banner/curved enscription), but the point is to come up with signs that match the character of each town.

Figurines, forks and spoons, bowls, all of them are considered to be clutter. The Warder had modelled a set, I've also uploded some relevant sketches, but no volunteers so far. I'll post links in this thread as well, in a desperate attempt to attract interested CAs!

As for orihalc, I had suggested it at the same time ceramic and porcelain were suggested as armor materials (!) but it got turned down. People find porcelain and ceramics much fitter materials for armor, I still can't deal with it.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun May 27, 2007 11:05 am

I thought porcelain armour was accepted in the end when MK said that he wished he thought of it, and would accept it as rock-solid lore for whatever it was worth. And then orichalcum was turned down because there was no basis in lore for Redguards having any - the funny thing being that MK released a story about Cyrus going to Yokuda and mentioning Redgaurds going there for orichalc like a week before.

Sometimes it is good to go over those things again.

As for symbols, I know this is boring but a rose and two scimitars surrounded by thorns would be a good one IMO. Or an eagle or something biting the neck of a dragon stabbing the eagle or whatever in the back. I dunno, maybe I should be drinking right now and so could come up with something better.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun May 27, 2007 11:10 am

Or something really simple, like (taking a book from an earlier concept of mine) a domed building flanked by two domed towers with a big star above it. I might try to draw some concept for some of those things, but I haven't been in the mood for a while now.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Sun May 27, 2007 11:23 am

Guys, in a case like this, it's not the quality that matters, it's the idea. Draw what you have in mind and if the idea's nice it will receive attention and remakes.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun May 27, 2007 8:18 pm

Meh, might as well get this underway.

I drew some banners and made a mock texture for each of them. In the ideal texture, each stitch would be digitally dyed to a vibrant colour, but I'm feeling lazy.

As before, I'll comment to them in turn.

First of all, they're all hosted on Photobucket. This is because image shack is a bit messed up for me at the moment. Just look for them in this link:

http://s54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/Gnomenator/Furniture%20and%20Related%20Things/

Starting from the bottom: The Original Sketches. Just that. it shows more of the banners, (in other words, the banner holders), shows a Rihad emblem (cloth stitching, here, not metal), and has a script which is my version (as no real version will exist, it seems) of common Yoku script.

The text is simple enough, but as I only used a few letters, it gets a bit strange in places: Rehad, Dregun Star, (in the bottom right banner:) Feng (with the "n" and "g" being pronounced separately) Ler, (in the bottom left banner:) Est and West. Call it a dialect.

Now from right to left: Tava Banner. This shows Tava as a bird, showing the ship (the brown crecent) where West and East is. Simply, the exodus from Yokuda, (on the left), to Hammerfell. (On the right). The ropes on the sides of the banner are from the banner holders, better shown in the Original Sketches.

Rihad Banner. This is the banner that I mentioned. I had originally intended the colours to be much richer, but again this is only a draft. The banner holder is shown in the Original Sketches, as with every other banner.

Fang Lair Banner. This is a warning sign. (The hand turned out rather crooked). The art isn't an attempt to copy the real fang lair. It's fanciful. The banner holder is the same design as the Tava banner.

Dragon Star Banner. Not my greatest banner, but oh well. The lower half is the city, with the Redguard and Nordic quarters clearly separated. Above them is the Dragon with a Star as an Eye. Get it?

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Sun May 27, 2007 8:18 pm

I will have something for you tomorrow...ive been doodling all evening and will scan and colour tomorrow.

Basically what I have in mind is very formulaic: design a new heraldry system. It fits with the whole knightly background, and is quite straight forward, with symbols essentially telling you about the town before you even get in there. I was inspired by this:

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/StrosmkaiEmblem.jpg[/img]

Thats the Stros Mkai emblem from Redguard: A fist with three crowns forming a halo. Simple drawings forming a message: This is a strong town with water on three sides that has a crown allegiance.

What I have doodled:

A horse
A hammer
A sun/star
A lantern (order of the lamp)
A new version of that fist
A scarab
A straight sword
A Curved sword
A bird
Two types of crown

Basically do some mix-and-matching! Take for example Rihad...perhaps the horse, with a straight sword behind it, signifying its close ties to Colovian culture, whereas Taneth would have the horse reversed, with two curved swords, showing a nuanced leaning more towards traditionalism while still being forebear.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun May 27, 2007 8:24 pm

Looks as though we posted in unison. Can't wait to see what you make.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Sun May 27, 2007 8:50 pm

I looked at yours, they are cool, but I think they are a bit too literal...as well as being hard things to paint on a shield or something. For me the redguards are more block colours, big and bold.

Good ideas though.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:19 pm

The Tava banner caught my eye from the first sec. I think we should work on your idea Gnomey.

As for the Rihad banner, I like it but I think there should be something underlining its role as a big trading port too.

Really, what's up with all the star symbols in HF?

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:30 pm

im also doing the UC and MC ones scumy, i just havent posted them up yet.

i also think that its a bit early to be heavily planing for dwemer, but meh. im working on a set based directly on the stros m'kai ruins (to make them as authentic as posible). if youre going to do some ruin designs too, it is absolutely necesary for you too look at the redguard story line on TIL, as well as some other documents. here are the links:

redguard story line, [url=http://til.gamingsource.net/tsorg/part03.shtml]part 3[/url] and [url=http://til.gamingsource.net/tsorg/part04.shtml]part 4[/url]
[url=http://til.gamingsource.net/dwemer/]guide to the dwemer[/url], look specificaly at redguard stuff
[url=http://crimegorilla.8m.com/index/3d_Gallery.htm]MK's site[/url], some thumbnails include more then one image.

those are the images i have off the top of my head. feel free to use stuff from MW and OB too, but i personaly think that we should try to make it as close as posible to the original. i for one am strongly agains metal plated walls all over the place. it makes it look too sci-fi.

as for baners, i think we should do them in the style of redguard (like the stros m'kai one). more symbols and more sylised, not specific animals like cyrodiil. for elinhir im thinking something similar to the [url=http://www.neferchichi.com/images/pharaohs/aten.gif]Aten[/url] in that it is a sun with downward pointing rays. but not hards or anything

white (or gold...) on crimson.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:34 pm

Thanks for informing LadyN. Would you want other CAs to try their hand at a specific furn or something? If not, I'll remove this from the list.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:42 pm

i edited above post while jale was posting, puting this mesage here incase somebody misses above post with nifty information.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Mon May 28, 2007 2:08 am

I thought porcelain armour was accepted in the end when MK said that he wished he thought of it, and would accept it as rock-solid lore for whatever it was worth. And then orichalcum was turned down because there was no basis in lore for Redguards having any - the funny thing being that MK released a story about Cyrus going to Yokuda and mentioning Redgaurds going there for orichalc like a week before. Sometimes it is good to go over those things again.

I believe sometimes MK just agrees to please us. Or the time that he came around these parts. We were probably just bugging him

.

Anyway Scumbago, I will be more than happy to help out with this. Does clutter involve furniture?

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Mon May 28, 2007 11:55 am

Here are two of the 15 different heraldic devices i doodled last night:

[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Hammer.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Hammer.png[/img][/url]
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Crown1.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Crown1.png[/img][/url]

That's the most simple crown idea, which I thought would fit the most austere Hegathe, and a Hammer...again Hegathe. So combine those two:
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/HegatheIdea.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_HegatheIdea.png[/img][/url]

Garish colours but you get the idea. The nice thing about it is that it translates well into stonework:

[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/HegatheinStone.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_HegatheinStone.png[/img][/url]

Whaddya think?

EDIT: Four Different Crown Motifs, from most austere to most flashy

[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Crown1.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Crown1.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Crown3.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Crown3.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Crown2.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Crown2.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Crown4.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Crown4.png[/img][/url]

EDIT: Three Hand Motifs - the fist from Stros M'kai, an open hand, and two hands clasped in greeting, agreement or support.

[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/OpenHand.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_OpenHand.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Fist.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Fist.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/ClaspedHands.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_ClaspedHands.png[/img][/url]

And the insignia of Stros M'Kai rebuilt from scratch:
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/StrosMkaiidea.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_StrosMkaiidea.png[/img][/url]

EDIT: Three more for your viewing pleasure: A bird, a sword and a star. The sword is intended to be the universal symbol for the Forebears.

[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/sword1.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_sword1.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Star.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Star.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Bird.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Bird.png[/img][/url]

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Mon May 28, 2007 7:08 pm

I like the symbols themselves, but I'd like to see them in a rendered more Redguard style. Right now they dont have the right design charactersitics.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 pm

Of course...later tonight Ill put a few on banners and stone embossings so you can see what its meant to look like. Its just raw design right now. All they have is the right design characteristics, as its really extrapolated from the only bit of evidence of Redguard insignia design! Once I put them onto fabric textures, wash bits out, put them on stone and chip up the paint, it will all look dandy. Speaking of which, heres a skull, an alternative sword and a scarab beetle:

[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/sword2.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_sword2.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Skullcopy.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Skullcopy.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Scarab.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Scarab.png[/img][/url]

Yet to come is a horsehead and a lantern.

Here are my ideas for combinations:

Rihad: White and Black clasped hands, an open palm showing a coin, horse head with two crossed swords behind it

Taneth: Large open hand holding a star, two curved swords flanking

Hegathe: As above, Hammer with Crown over top, but flanked by two crowned fists

Sentinel: Two swords crossing through a crown, hand with a lantern in the middle of it, and clenched hands

Dragonstar: Straight Sword going over a star, with the middle diamond over the top, crown sitting on the end of the blade.

Skaven: Scarab (insignia of the knights of Totambu which was to the north and I guess is part of Skaven Principality),with two Stros-M'kai style crowns either side of the head, two downward-facing oepn hands each holding skulls

Elinhir: Bird with a crown, two fists clenched around hammers

Gilane: Two curved swords held by fists spearing through the two eye sockets of a skull

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:22 pm

Totambu is independent.

Although it is pretty obvious what you mean by some of them, for others such as Gilane what is the meaning behind what you have come up with?

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:33 pm

The meaning for that is that I got to the end of the list and had run out of fun designs

If people like this stuff ill doodle some more centrepieces so Gilane can have something interesting.

In the meantime here are some quick and dirty texture-style pictures, just so you can see what I mean in terms of game style rather than just block graphics
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/DragonstarPlain.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_DragonstarPlain.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/DragonstarStone.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_DragonstarStone.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/DragonstarBurlap.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_DragonstarBurlap.png[/img][/url]

That's Dragonstar, which is intentionally quite plain. I think there is a pretty good advantage to this system in that because its simple, it can appear on walls and so forth, and the quality of the paintwork can help to represent how run down or spick and span we want the area to look...so Dragonstar it would be worn to hell and only a few bits of colour, wheras sentinel would have nice colourful panels. Don't take those poor textures as representative, thats just what photoshop churned out. Ideally I would be working on the real wall texture.

I'll get a Rihad idea drawn up tomorrow, on a bit of GM texture.

EDIT: Here's just an example...Elinhir kind of icon, with a poor, cracked version and a richer, cleaner version (though still not perfect, of course.)

[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/Elinhirplain.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_Elinhirplain.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/PoorElinhirStone.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_PoorElinhirStone.png[/img][/url][url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/RichElinhirStone.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_RichElinhirStone.png[/img][/url]

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:15 pm

personaly, i think that all the "iconX with iconY in backgroun and iconZ flanking" is WAY too much. the bird by itself, maybe with a crown above it if you realy want, but not all that stuff. the stuff with the bird and the circlet and the warhammer hands kind of overpowers it all and makes it look way too buisy. the stros m'kai symbol is very simple even though it does have 2 elements, the crowns serve only to border. the skaven symbol especialy seems way too buisy to me.

maybe thats just me though, but i would prefer simpler symbols. no more then one or 2 in combination.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:22 pm

Fair enough... I think a lot of it could be down to context...such as on a full banner or large relief, all the additional elements would come in, whereas on something smaller, like a shield or a random wall somewhere, it would just be the centrepiece. Its like that in most heraldry from around the world. Take the royal crest of england for example:

[img]http://www.castles-abbeys.co.uk/royal-crest-1405.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.rcep.org.uk/images/newcrest.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/yourplaceandmine/images/co-antrim/larne/crest.jpg[/img]

A three tiered system would be appropriate, as shown above: Tier 1, just Centre piece, Tier 2, centrepiece with a couple of additional devices, Tier 3, centre piece with a few more devices

Tier 1: Small logos on clothing, random walls etc
Tier 2: Important buildings, Militia shields, most banners etc
Tier 3: Really uncommon: huge doors, above thrones.[/img]

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Tue May 29, 2007 12:26 am

Jale your thoughts are very good, though the design of some symbols could use a remake, i.e the scarab and the bird. Inspired by your symbols I made a horse head very first draft but you will all get the idea. A horsehead simle as hell, within a circle. The will follow an invisible circle when ready. It's simple and eyecatching.

This one could (if not used in some city insignia) be a sign for a stable. Remember WIP so don't complain about the quality.

[edit] perhaps add a crown at the base or make the outer circle more elaborate (leaves/snakes/swirly pattern/thorns with a rose at the top etc.)

[edit 2] The dragonstar one that you did Jale, I have an idea. Skip the sword, and replace it with a morningstar/mace with the star that you did as the head. And the crown flowing on top of that, try it out and see.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Tue May 29, 2007 3:54 am

I think that the same symbols would be cool with a more organic style applied to them I like elfane's but does anyone else think that these would be nice in Lutey style? Like these:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3113/pottery1ks.jpg
And the shield in this: http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1323/totambuknightfk6.jpg

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Tue May 29, 2007 7:30 am

Quite simply Macar, no I don't think they should be in that style. The simple reason is that we have one bit of evidence that points to how they do insignias, and it points to simple shapes. From this bit of evidence we can think logically: Why would they make simple shapes when pretty ones would look nicer? Think about it, they probably put this symbol everywhere, on walls, on armour, on doors. To make it needlessly complex on a fundamental level would make it hard to mass produce.

Of course I love that kind of design. Personally I think the largest banners should feature some yoku characters upholding the crest, somewhat like the lion and unicorn in that english crest above.

Elfane: I really like your horse. I'm quite attached to the bird design, even if it needs a little more polish. The scarab is crap and ultimately is only appropriate for Totambu which is a nowhere-town. The dragonstar one cannot lose the sword: its a symbol of militarism, and the forebear/lhotunic troops in Dragonstar, just as the crown is for the crown/lhotunic troops there.

Also if you think about Anvil, they had probably the simplest design of the whole of Cyrodiil: it was verging on being like a tartan, just a pattern to represent them. Though I think the cultural influences with regards to crests are minimal: Cheydinhal for example keeps the beigy colour scheme of the Dunmer, but its not a very dunmeric design.

LadyN pointed out that the bird, Tava, is the old god of merchants, so I would like to use this as the base symbol of Rihad.

Tier 1: Just the bird
Tier 2: The bird with two swords interlaced in its wings
Tier 3: The bird, the swords, clasped hands below, yoku figure holding the design on largest banner.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Tue May 29, 2007 8:42 am

I love your work Jale, and I think your point about simple and expressive symbols is absolutely correct. Especially the in-game shot of Sentinel's sign reminds me UT2004's flag signs. The technique is exactly the same, simple and absolute.

Elfane, I think you've got it too.

EDIT: Do keep in mind that the sign of each city will affect the architecture concepts, since it reflect the city's character as much as its description.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue May 29, 2007 8:51 am

I'm not really sure you have the right idea for Dragonstar. If that city were built or rebuilt after the War of BendriMark, those arms would fit. But if the city existed before, as it has, the arms aren't right. There's usually a story behind arms, and IMO we should do what BS didn't and actually add some history and meaning to the arms. I also don't reckon we should use common elements - IMO every cities arms should be near-enough unique.

(BTW: I'm not really sure what you mean by tiers, but whatever you mean I don't reckon we should go that route. It'll make it all too medieval)

Here's some other ideas:
Rihad: Rather than go the trading hands, I agree with you that the bird would be more appropriate.

Taneth: Rose flower in a wreath of thorns. The rose is to symbolise the beauty and prestige of the city (yeah right) while the thorns are to symbolise the skill in warfare and the brutality shown to criminals.

Hegathe: As the old capital, as well as being a formidable fortress, I reckon two towers on either side of a gate (the city) with a crown in the air above (the high kings).

Sentinel: This one is funny. The main component of the arms should be a candle, since their knights are the Order of the Candle. However the High King of Hammerfell (crown) in a display of his power moved his capital from Hegathe to the Forebear bastion here, so a crown should appear above the candle.

Dragonstar: I know this will be horribly cliche, but I reckon a dragon and a star here. Part of the city name is "Dragon", and the city is located at where the Dragontail Mts and the Dragonteeth Mts meet. To make it different, the dragon could be like Lute's Satakal concepts, and the star (eight pointed) in the middle.

The other thing about Dragonstar is that the eastern half of the city is occupied by Skyrim, so maybe there is a Nord-ified version of the symbol as well.

Skaven: The only notable features of Skaven that I know of is that it is in a wasteland and the cliff-cut Halls of Heroes and Virtues and Wars or whatever are located nearby. A scarab surrounded by a ring of five scimitars or sabres could work.

Elinhir: Another funny city in that it is occupied by Nords, and has a powerful priesthood. I really have no idea, but I an idea would be to make the main element an avatar or depiction of the cities' patron god. Alternatively, use that pretty horsehead above.

Gilane: This city is is a cosmopolitan city at the meeting point of several trade routes, and is nearby the Alik'r and the ruins of Volenfel. And you didn't give me any ideas Jale

Maybe an upside-down hammer (to say where it landed) with rays like the Egyptian depiction of the Suns Disk Aten facing upwards?

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:05 am

Regardless of overall design, the sword or the crown should appear in each and every one. I am 100% sure of this.

Here are some ideas of how it could appear in Rihad, painted on walls:

This is a Middle class wall thats in pretty bad repair, so its a little more scuffed and worn-
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/RihadWall.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_RihadWall.png[/img][/url]

This one is in slightly better nick, and I put two curved swords interlacing the wings. Overall I think its a pretty mean design, showing the military edge that LadyN was getting at-
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/RihadWall2.png][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_RihadWall2.png[/img][/url]

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:05 am

Nomadic1 wrote:Dragonstar: I know this will be horribly cliche, but I reckon a dragon and a star here. Part of the city name is "Dragon", and the city is located at where the Dragontail Mts and the Dragonteeth Mts meet. To make it different, the dragon could be like Lute's Satakal concepts, and the star (eight pointed) in the middle.

Since Dragonstar is occupied by both provinces, may I suggest a Dragon with a scimitar pointing downwards to its left and a hammer pointing upwards to its right?

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:27 am

I would imagine that each side would have their own flag, since they are at war and probably agree on very little.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:42 am

Plus I'd imagine the Nords would have an axe instead of a hammer

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Tue May 29, 2007 12:26 pm

Just a random one:

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/FistandSwords.png[/img]

Gilane? A forebear Island? The sword singers?

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Tue May 29, 2007 6:55 pm

myah, Elinhir is not ocupied by nordses (not physicaly anyhow). Yes, it is in the conquered area, but it is not actualy controled by them as dragonstar is. as for sentinel, are we still having the knights? gilane: i dont think that the fact that there is an old dwemer capital nearby realy matters to the redguards. the dwemer mythology of the hammer and all dosent realy impact their daily lives, and the dwemer were gone long before they got there. About elfane's horsie, i like it as a symbol, but probably not for a city (i cant realy think of a city where horses are important...). it would probably look better on a stable, mayhaps you can design the other shop signs in similar style?

i dont think that the sword singers would have a city like symbol, they are a faction and much to ancient to have adapted such insignia imho.

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Tue May 29, 2007 7:02 pm

Macar wrote:I think that the same symbols would be cool with a more organic style applied to them I like elfane's but does anyone else think that these would be nice in Lutey style? Like these:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3113/pottery1ks.jpg
And the shield in this: http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1323/totambuknightfk6.jpg

I'm in agreement with Macar. Your stuff is good Jale, if we were adding to ultra-generic Cyrodil, Raga stuff deserves a more unique perspective, or perhaps a clash of styles to show Reguard and Imperial perspectives?

The old Stros M'kai emblem for instance might only exists on old/run down buildings of an era gone by, the insignia replaced now with something more lute-raga?

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Tue May 29, 2007 7:19 pm

Agreed I would like that Lute make the symbols or that someone make it Lute-style. His raga-mojo is the shit.

Lady N, could perhaps make some more stylized symbols like that. Will look into it later this week. And improve the horsie...

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:04 pm

You are talking like I dont think both can co-exist. I simply think that a simple pattern would be appropriate because of reproduction. Works of art, like Lutes, would be dominant, but simple iconography is a necessary part of any aesthetic.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:21 pm

Lady Nerevar wrote:myah, Elinhir is not ocupied by nordses (not physicaly anyhow). Yes, it is in the conquered area, but it is not actualy controled by them as dragonstar is.

Doesn't matter in this discussion, does it?

as for sentinel, are we still having the knights?

I really can't keep up with how the factions and everything keeps changing. They'll be guilds in all cities. They'll be guilds in two cities. We won't have knightly orders. The point of the FG is to prepare the PC for a knightly order. Everything changes with the wind.

Regardless, the candle appears to be the symbol of Sentinel.

gilane: i dont think that the fact that there is an old dwemer capital nearby realy matters to the redguards. the dwemer mythology of the hammer and all dosent realy impact their daily lives, and the dwemer were gone long before they got there.

I agree with you. I just had no idea as I hinted.

i dont think that the sword singers would have a city like symbol, they are a faction and much to ancient to have adapted such insignia imho.

Well come on. Think of something.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Tue May 29, 2007 10:05 pm

i have to think? meh, i prefer not to think outside of school but i will if i must

no sketches here, but i personaly see something much more lute for the swordsinger symbol. maybe some kind of abstract-ish swirl of magic or power, somehow forming into a sword. something realy swirly and elegant. or some kind of totaly abstract symbol of lines and circles to hold some kind of symbolic segnificace. heck, anything with symbolic segnificance for that matter. eyes are always nice, clasic symbols.

(this is me putting down thoughts on paper in the hope that somebody may expans upon them)

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Tue May 29, 2007 10:37 pm

For a smaller organisation yes a nice pretty think would be appropriate, especially the sword singers.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Wed May 30, 2007 2:41 pm

Can we please focus on Goldmoor and the regions north and east of it? The rest are still too far.