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Post by Haplo »

Theo you should definitely be able to edit your posts here now.
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Post by Theo »

Thank you Haplo. If you do not mind, I will probably try to fill Lud's scheme myself. I am sorry if you wanted to do it immortal_pigs, but it is still partly my child, so probably I should get the chance first. I will post the outline soon, if you still wish you can remake it in any way you please.
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Post by immortal_pigs »

That's okay, Theo, though I'd still like to propose a few ideas along the way.

Here's one:
This could be either a soldier quest or a priest quest I guess.

In [place] there currently resides a well known Dunmer Witchhunter/Crusader who has dedicated his life to destroying the cult of Molag Bal. He is kind of alike to the vampire hunter you have to kill in one of the Aundae/Berne/Quarra quests.

Now this Witchhunter has killed many cultists and has even wiped out an entire lesser shrine. He is not neccessarily a demi-god but he has specialised himself in exploiting the weaknesses of the cult of Molag Bal.

Lately he has been killing the secret MB members in place x. In doing so he has been able to obtain a few valuable items and important information regarding the MB cult. Killing him would be to risky and would send a message that the MB cult really exists [assuming there is still reasonable doubt as to its existance], so you are told to capture the Witchhunter and bring him to a shrine so he can be enslaved for the rest of his life.
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Post by immortal_pigs »

Forgive the double post, I don't have the edit option.

An extra for the Witchhunter would be if he were to have a diary in which he details the things he has done to the MB cult.

About the codex:
I think it should be used ingame and that all members of the MB cult should have one codex on them by means of recognition.

I also like Bloodthirsty's idea of giving the MB cult a symbol. Maybe they could have a sort of amulet on them with a light enchantment boosting a MB preferred skill? The amulet would only be given to those who have passed the slave stage.

Since the cult of Molag Bal is sort of a secret society, I think every reasonably large town and city on Map1 should be given a few secret members. I think this would be benificiary to the overal feel of the cult, plus these members could be of aid if you have to perform a quest for the cult in that paticular area [they could provide you with hints.]

One thing that might create a problem is that the codex says the following: "We acknowledge House Dres, for its members recognize the basic distinction between lesser and higher beings. Its councilors are of the noble kin, created by our Lord himself. Members of this House adore our Lord more than other Houses and create the widest base of our cultists."
The problem is that House Dres lies quite far away to the south and it doesn't really make sense to place your head shrine so far away from your main group of support. In any case there should be some kind of explanation as to why the head shrine lies so far away from the Dres. Other than that there will have to be quite a few Dres cultists in the MB cult to justify the statement.

"Extortion, blackmail, the spreading of gossip, intrigues and plotting will confuse our enemies and break apart the fragile bonds that unite them."
I thought these techniques are more fitting of Mehrunes Dagon and Mephala, at least I think I read something like that somewhere.
If not, then these themes should definetely be used in the Quest Design.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Not a fan of the Dres connection, myself. As is clear, the MB base is gonna be in the Telvannis District. If they love Dres so much: why? It's just implausible.

Secondly, the Dres are big fans of more traditional Dunmer worship, so presumably are even more up on their Good/Bad Daedra distinctions than most. I don't think they'd want to be consorting with Bal.
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Post by Theo »

I have a first version. All quests up to the high-rank quests are here to be discussed. I would welcome discussion and ideas about the high-rank quests even more.
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Post by immortal_pigs »

Well first of all, I think all 3 quests leading up to the slave phase are pretty much perfect. They all bring about a very dark and eerie feeling, at least for me, and are a very nice introduction to what is about to come.

I do have one suggestion though; what if instead of persuading Draan Solobar to commit suicide, you have to persuade him not to.
This would require a slight change in the quest, but let's say that Draan is actually a member of the MB cult but wants to commit suicide in order to escape from her grasps.
I'd say that for Molag Bal, a member commiting suicide would be the ultimate slap in the face as it's the only way to be freed from his domination.

So, in this case you'll actually have to persuade him not to commit suicide. Then, later on, you will find him in one of the MB crypt as a slave or as a servant, where he'll end up being killed anyway, but this time it is not his own choice, but the choice of Molag Bal.
==========================================================
Also, it seems now as if you are skipping the entire slave phase and are going straight to the servant phase. Bloofthirsty and doemaarwat had some fine ideas on page 2 on how to implement the slave phase.
==========================================================
The servant phase itself seems flawless to me, so I don't have any comments.
==========================================================
Now on to the enforcer phase, which I think is too short.
The Salms Alen quest itself is fine, but I think there should be one quest before it.

In this quest the PC would be sent with 4 other enforcers (including Salms, who will be unable to die), and a soldier to conquer an inhabited Daedric Ruin.
The PC would meet up with the other cultists in front of the Daedric Ruin, and would then go in together to conquer the ruin.

The goal of the mission would be threefold:
1.Slay the leader and retrieve a valuable item.
2.Slay all those who attempt to fight (once the leader is slain all others will surrender).
3.Enslave the surviving cultists and slaves.

Once succesfully completed, the Deadric Ruin would be inhabited by cultists of Molag Bal and the survivers would all be enslaved.

The PC will find the valuable item on the leaders corpse, and must give it to the soldier of Molag Bal in order to finish the quest. This way the PC will have showed his trustworthyness to the cause once again.

After the above quest the PC will go on to the Salms Alen quest. Also, I think it would be nice if the PC were to develop a sort of friendship with Salms during the quests so as to make the final part of this quest more emotional.
==========================================================
For the Soldier phase, I think there should also be 1 quest before proceeding with the Ratagos/Crassi storyline.

This could be the Witchhunter quest I proposed above.
==========================================================
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

I think if you two work on this together, things should turn out alright. :) The two plans so far look good.

Here are my critiques/comments:


1: the rumors that lead you to the Cult should be in several places (though still end in one final destination) I liked Lud's graffiti idea, if we can get some artist to draw some nice stuff.

2: it's slightly unclear to me in Theo's plans where the choices are (as outlined by the branches in Lud's diagram).

3: If we want to get the slave-y bit in there (which I think would be a good idea), then replace Theo's Servant/Initiate bit with my plan, having my plan result in the 'Apprentice' tests of Theo's plan.

Theo's current S/I quests can be put back in to the quest line as optional/'chore' quests at a later stage (probably Enforcer).
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Oh, Hap. I still can't edit here!

Anyway, IP, I'm not too sure about your 'setting up a new base' quest. It seems a little too active for a secretive cult, and at any rate is probably more trouble than it's worth to pull off? (Having to create new NPCs etc, who will appear to have come from nowhere, and all the stuff that goes with them if it's to look sensible... new dialogue, new quests etc.)

But I agree that there should be a few more quests hanging around.
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Post by MMMowSkwoz »

Doesn't killing Ratagos conflict with Faalen's Telvanni (Dren) quest? He's very minor, but I think you do need him to complete it (I could be wrong though).

Instead of setting up a new base, it could be a slave hunt, where the objective is to capture slaves (who will later appear in the hidden main base). You could have it so the objective is to kill the leader, but leave as many of the others alive as possible. When the leader is dead, all the survivors can be enslaved.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

By Dren I presume you mean Dral?

And yes, killing Ratagos will also cause issues with (most obviously) the Temple line, and one of Mithras' Mouth quests.

For now, I'm inclined to think that's just 'a consequence', and as long as we plan around this for cases where it's obvious to do so (i.e. skip the Mithras Mouth quest involving Ratagos because he's dead; come up with some alternative NPC for the Dral line, etc.) we're okay.

Of course, some cases, lines will just be broken (obviously: Temple line).


And of course, if it becomes apparent that there really needs to be an option for Ratagos to live, we can set that up in the quest too.
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Post by MMMowSkwoz »

Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:By Dren I presume you mean Dral?
Oops. Indeed I did.
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Post by Theo »

I think it is your turn now to (re)make some quests. Branching has not yet been implemented. The initiate quests - as you may have noticed - should also wrap up the "find the cult" quests in some way and explain a bit motives of the cult. The slave quests (if any, I still have my doubts about this part as cult members should probably not recruit from the actual slaves - these should be material for experiments and not real worthy candidates of the cult) should probably be inserted between initiate quests and triple of 'proving your worth' quests. It can also replace them, but I have tried to fill Lud's scheme and take in account that all those quests should take place in the base only, as you are still not trusted to leave the base.
The enforcers stage will continue in soldier's stage (let's just not get this over 30 quests with all those ideas). Establishing new base also really does not make too much sense and would bring lot of difficult issues to solve. I like the witchhunter idea. I think Ratagos would like to summon him to help to fight with the cult, and you need to stop him (killing the messenger, or killing the witchhunter before the messenger arrives, or you have to face him later in more uneven combat).
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Post by immortal_pigs »

Well on the establishing a new base quest I envisioned it as follows:

All the enforcer's that come along with you will already be present in the MB HQ [outer level?], so no new NPCs popping out of nowhere.

It might not be a totally secretive action to take, but I don't think anyone will actually notice since the Deadric ruin will be secluded and the attack will take place inside the ruin and possibly during the night.

I'm not sure about all those difficult issues, but I'm not a scripter. AFAIK you just create a script which places a different teleporter marker on the door and will send you to the same ruin but now with the enforcers inside it (meeting outside is a bad idea I realise so you will meet inside). Then you just use a similar script as the one used in that Sheogorath ruin in the north (where the ordinators are fighting the cultists), in order to make everyone fight eachother. Once the quest is finished you will be told to leave, and once you return (after a week?), there will be another interior, this one inhabited by a bunch of MB cultists.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Okay, as Theo asked, here's my version of the Cult line.

I haven't added much new stuff, because then it would be a bit overloaded, but I've mostly just rearranged the previous bits to make more sense, and firmed in Lud's sense of 'choice' and multi-lines and stuff. It seems less linear now.

This line is fairly solid (in my view) up to the Priesty area, where I haven't had any inspiration for quests, and I've left the Endgame Finale up to those in charge right now (Theo and IP).

But I think the skeleton of quests I'm providing here is pretty solid.

Feel free to do whatever you want with this.
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Post by Faalen »

Re: Killing Ratagos

That's not a particular problem for me. It would be a matter of about twenty minutes to build in contingencies for his death. I won't do so unless this line finalizes his demise, however. I'll keep myself apprised. I would like to say, though, that as a player I oppose the mandatory killing of vital characters. For completists like me, it's enormously annoying to reach dead ends in quest lines because an earlier line forced me to kill an important NPC. My vote is on providing an alternative to killing a temple leader for those who have a problem with it. (I realize that from a role-playing standpoint it doesn't make sense to join both a cult and the Temple, but Beth lets the player join the Temple and Imperial Cult so I don't think we should limit our players like that.)
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Post by immortal_pigs »

Looking at the MB quests again I actually find it pretty strange there is so much Salms Alen in the questline.

I mean, what makes Salms Alen so special that he gets to play such a major role in the Molag Bal questline? Why is he chosen of all other enforcers/soldiers to accompany you? And why is he given such an important amulet?
My point is that Salms Alen's role in the cult of Molag Bal seems unfittingingly large. So I propose the following:

a.Maybe write Salms Alen out of all questlines.
b.Maybe make it so that there will be three soldiers sent to do the Crassi quest (you, Salms and some other guy). And that it will be the other guy that gets caught and imprisoned.
c.Maybe give an explanation as to why Salms gets to play such a big role.
d.Or maybe something else.

Also, I basically don't see how Salms Alan adds anything to the cult of Molag Bal experience. For example preventing/forcing suicide, experiencing being a slave to the cult and proving your worth during the servant phase are all things uniquely fitting to the cult of Molag Bal. The Salms Alan story however, could easily take place in any other questline in my opinion.

But I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, Theo.
==========================================================
I also have quite a few questions;

-Where is the MB HQ going to be situated? I thought it was Lambinatha, but I checked it out and it seems unfitting for the cult of Molag Bal [it is very bare].
-What is the top rank of the cult of Molag Bal, and who currently holds it?
-Does the council consist only of the 3 priests?
-Are there any high priests?
-How large is the group of 'cynics'? As far as I can see there are only 2 cynics, the priest and the apprentice.
-How many vampires are in the cult?
-How many affiliated sub-bases will we implement ingame? E.g. will there be any smaller MB bases where the PC can go and speak with cultists and maybe be provided with services?
-How many members are there in total?
-Will there be any secret members amongst civilians in the Telvanni towns and cities?

I think that's it for now. ;)
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Post by Theo »

I really do not understand you concerns IP. It was you who thought some other quests with Salms Alan should be added. I included him in the questline for 2 reasons:
1] To show what happens to cult traitors and to create a certain moral dilemma for the PC.
2] To create a feeling of the cult plotting to get to power and using its members as agents. It was a basic lore agreement that Molag-Bal cult's unique feature are intriques, corruption and attempt to distort traditional structures. That is the whole point of enforcer-soldier line.

Expanding base on the other hand is a bad idea IMO. Also the slave line seems overinflated to me. I would be more in favor of cutting things out of my proposal, rather then adding new ones and concentrating more on the high level quests.

Well, now I think there are so many ideas for the cult that perhaps one person should claim it whole and do the cult from scratch only following his own ideas and ignoring ideas of the others or we get nowhere. So is there someone to claim the questline?
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Personally (although I know it's probably infuriating for someone like yourself who's been watching this thing stagnate for years now), I think the 'well-aimed committee' approach tends to provide the best results, and avoids last minute revisions because people aren't really happy.

I'm with you on IP's comments there Theo, I don't think the Cult should be a very widespread thing, and so having a small base is good, as is having 'recurring characters'. I agree with you on Salms Alan.

However, overall, the consensus seems to be in favour of the 'slave line'. If others want to weigh in, and a lot of them don't like it, I'm sure it will easily be removed.

Anyway, the best thing for now would be if you (seeing as you are our resident expert) or someone else got the 'high-end' thing worked out. From there, we can decide how over-weighted the line seems, and whether anything needs to be cut. That should be the priority.

I don't think a 'one man band' will help anything, and if anything would just slow things down even more, because the 'committee stage' would just kick in as soon as Person A had finished, and then it would be totally rewritten by Person B, and then Person C would take a wholly different view, etc. This way, we reach a firmer decision sooner, and can kick out poor ideas as soon as they arise.

That's just my feelings.
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Post by MMMowSkwoz »

I'm no expert on the Cult, so feel free to ignore my opinion, but I also think the idea of recruiting from the slaves is a bit odd. The slave missions do look pretty boring too.

An alternative line for freeing the slaves could be cool for people who want to play it the good way.
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Post by immortal_pigs »

Theo wrote:I really do not understand you concerns IP. It was you who thought some other quests with Salms Alan should be added. I included him in the questline for 2 reasons:
1] To show what happens to cult traitors and to create a certain moral dilemma for the PC.
2] To create a feeling of the cult plotting to get to power and using its members as agents. It was a basic lore agreement that Molag-Bal cult's unique feature are intrigues, corruption and attempt to distort traditional structures. That is the whole point of enforcer-soldier line.

Expanding base on the other hand is a bad idea IMO. Also the slave line seems overinflated to me. I would be more in favor of cutting things out of my proposal, rather then adding new ones and concentrating more on the high level quests.

Well, now I think there are so many ideas for the cult that perhaps one person should claim it whole and do the cult from scratch only following his own ideas and ignoring ideas of the others or we get nowhere. So is there someone to claim the questline?
Well don't expect me to be consistent when it comes to ideas; at that moment I thought adding Salms to that quest would at least give his importance more validity. Only later did I think it would be better to change his role.

1.I think showing what happens to traitors is a great idea, but can be implemented in many different ways than via the Salms Alen route. And by the way, it isn't actually that evil if you think about it; it is vaguely implied you should kill him, but that seems pretty bland to me. I'd expect something far more evil from the cult of Molag Bal.
2.Once again the idea behind it is great; I love the idea of distorting the traditional structures and being an agent to a dark cult. However, how does that justify Salms Alen playing such a major role?

Well if you don't like the idea of an expanding base, just cut it out. I consider you to be the head quest designer so you should decide. All I do is propose stuff and see what is done with it; I'm rarely hell-bent on getting an idea implemented. :P

I'm sort of neutral regarding the slave phase, I think it has the potential to be of added value to the Molag Bal experience, but I can't think of anything good at the moment. I do think it would be a good medium to convey certain aspects of the cult, since being the one experiencing it should have a more powerful impact.

However, I stand by my orignial statement that there are too little quests leading up to the endphase. I still think there should be a few more quests in the middle since I personally don't find the Crassi etc.. questline to utilise the full potential of this stage in the MB cult questline.

If you, or anyone else, prefers the monopoly style of quest designing then I think theviking ought to decide if that's best. Personally, I prefer the current way of doing things. Whilst and individually made questline could be very consistent in experience, a collaborative approach allows for more choice when it comes to ideas. At least that's my opinion.

But disregarding all of the above, what is it with ignoring asked questions around here? I swear this isn't the first time I ask a bunch of questions and they get completely ignored... I thought those questions would help create clarity regarding the implementation of the cult of Molag Bal, but apparantly not.
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Post by Theo »

I think BC made good points. I will try to finish the questline and then we can discuss what else could go in or should go out. So far I am not so much against a slave line provided it will make sense and not be a bore (I think fun should be the most important factor), but in the end I believe these initial tasks will have to go through some revision. But let's discuss these things after final version is made, that is a reasonable suggestion.

What have you still against poor fictional Salms Alan, IP? If you have a questline it is much more interesting to have some characters, which go through the story with you and play their own part in it. It creates a feeling that other characters have motivations and make decisions of their own and make the line compact and not just series of unrelated quests. You go from somewhere to somewhere else - others do too (he is not the only NPC that recurrs in the questline) and do not only serve as dummies for your actions, as you are the only factor in the game. He does not play such a major role after all.

As to your questions IP:

- Completely new interior behind ruinous crypt is my suggestion. I think it is stated clearly in the questline.
- I think the ranks were originally following:
Cult servants (outer circle): INITIATE, APPRENTICE, ACOLYTE, DISCIPLE, ENFORCER
Cultists (inner circle):(previously INVOKER), CONJURER (might need another name too), WARLOCK,
Priests (secret circle): PRIEST, HIGH PRIEST, POTENTATE. High priest should be a secret figure in the background, more like a regional leader, then member of particular coven (he will appear in final stages of the quest) and POTENTATE should be a unique 'right hand' of MOLAG BAL in the realm of NIRN. This position might be empty, or PC may be challanged by this person, but he definitely won't reside in the cult's base. Not sure yet.
- That was Starcrunches original plan. I would have council of the coven led by those three priests and later more important cultists may take appearance.
- The cynics should be a minority as well as the vampires. The vampires should be all cynical, but some others can be cynical as well.
- I am strongly in favor there was only one base known to PC. No other bases or expansions.
- Not important. As many as we need for the quest and few others.
- Perhaps sympathisers, or those who have been influenced by the cult, but direct members - maybe... If we have reason to include them in the quests. I would leave this question open too.

I think the best will be if I finish major proposal of this ASAP to prevent those fruitless discussions...
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Post by theviking »

This is a solid line that you produced together, I'm really happy that this progresses as well that it does now. I'm in favor of Salms Alan, he brings some sense of progression into the questline and some competition. It doesn't matter that he dies at the end, but that you progressed so far that he now has to lick your boots. I think that the slave line could be a nice touch in this cult, but its quests need to become a tad more interesting.
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Post by immortal_pigs »

What have you still against poor fictional Salms Alan, IP? If you have a questline it is much more interesting to have some characters, which go through the story with you and play their own part in it. It creates a feeling that other characters have motivations and make decisions of their own and make the line compact and not just series of unrelated quests. You go from somewhere to somewhere else - others do too (he is not the only NPC that recurrs in the questline) and do not only serve as dummies for your actions, as you are the only factor in the game. He does not play such a major role after all.
Exactly, having interesting characters in a questline should always add to the experience, and ought to give the storyline a more dynamic feel. But in my opinion, Salms Alen isn't special. I guess that was basically what I was trying to say when I asked what justified his reasonably large role in the questline.

I mean, he has no backstory as far as I can see, no special skills that make him uniquely qualified for serving Molag Bal, no personal ambitions and no distinctive personality. He's just Salms Alen, and I don't see how that would make him anything different then a dummie for your actions as you say above.

Now you say he is not the only NPC who recurrs in the questline, but then who are the others? I'm talking only about the Molag Bal cultists to be clear. I know that later on there will be recurring characters in the later phases, but Salms Alen seems to be the only mentioned MB character the PC will work with in the middle phase.

So my point is, I have nothing angainst Salms Alen, I have something against meaningless NPCs without backstory etc.. playing an overly large role in the cult of Molag Bal.
Which is why I'd like it if there were more charcters in the middle phase and if Salms Alen where to be given more meaning in the way I detailed above. I think that is a fair request, but if you think Salms is fine the way he is right now then I'll quit my fruitless discussions, Theo.
===========================================================

Now just for clarity about the hierarchy of the cult of Molag Bal;
The leader of Nirn is the Potentate,
Each Imperial Province has a High Priest,
and each province is ruled by a council of three priests?

OR

The Cult is situated only in Morrowind, so there is only one High Priest in all of Tamriel?
----

As for the amount of Vampires and cynics, I meant to ask for an exact number. Why?

Let's say there is only one vampire in the entire cult, then that should mean this will be one of the most powerfull vampires in at least Morrowind, using the logic that that which is rare must be powerfull.
This vampire should be at least equally powerfull to the vampire leaders of the Aundae/Quarra/Berne. Otherwise it'd make no sense for a simpel vampire to be able to rule 1/3d of the MB cult.

However if there are multiple vampires in the cult then the vampire priest doesn't have to be extremely powerful since he is simply a representation of the cult's membership.
I am strongly in favor there was only one base known to PC. No other bases or expansions.
Well I think this is one point where I would like to propose an alternative;

Let's say the cult has it's main base behind the ruinous crypt. This would be where all slaves are held and where the center of the cult is located. By the way, where is this ruinous crypt actually?

Then the cult has a smaller base in the middle between Firewatch, Bal Oyra and Tel Ouada. This would primarily be a base through which the cult performs minor attacks on organized society; the base will have a small hall full of beds, a weaponsmith, an armorer and other NPCs providing military related services. The PC would only obtain access to this base upon entering the inner circle.

Lastly the cult would have a 3d base situated west of Llothanis. In this base there will be services for ranks Warlock and above. Now this base could have one of many functions:
a. It is where the vampires of the cult prefer to be situated.
b. It is the site where most dangerous rituals are performed so as to not endanger the main cult base.
c. It is a place will relatively luxurious services where are the high ranked cultists can go to profit from their dominance. For example it would have a library filled with rare books, service NPCs offering powerfull spells, weaponry and potions. High quality beds, quality foods and extravagant clothing. In a way, this base would show the cynical side of the cult AND be a form of reward since it is only available to those of adequate rank.
d. It could be a combination of a prison and a ritual performing facility, where prisoners are tortured for their information and then sacrificed in abysmal rituals.

Now all of the above ideas could also just be implemented in the main base, though it would mean that the base'd have to be considerably large.
And this would bring around a reasonably large risk, since if the HQ were to be found by the Temple and Imperials, they would be destroyed all at once.

Now if a sub-base were to be found and destroyed, the enemies might as well think it was the only one and consider the cult destroyed. Or the cultists could hide all evidence linking them to the cult of Molag Bal, etc..

But I have a better idea for the sub-bases, let's say their doors can only be opened from the inside, plus the doors are in the form of those inconspicuous crawlspaces. Now the only way to get in would be via teleportation. Either the main base can provide teleportational services through NPCs, or teleportation could be created through the use of a sigil of Molag Bal.

So what do you think Theo?
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

I think you're overblowing the Cult here, IP.

They should only be a small, secretive group, not some 'uber-wizards with uber-powers who secretly have control over all Tamriel, mwahahaha!' etc. (Not that you're necessarily suggesting that, but it's where this type of thought will lead us)

The Ruinous Crypt should be their only base.

The Potentate, I agree with Theo, should only be a hypothetical position. There isn't one.

The 'High Priest' may have his own hang-out, but that's about as far as it should go.


And I would like to remind everyone that we shouldn't go back to the old finale where Molag Bal himself is summoned and takes on Firewatch. That is lame. These guys are low key, and although they might have plans and are generally evil, they're not gonna be doing anything dramatic.
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Post by immortal_pigs »

Well I guess it comes down to whatever would be the most fun. Personally I'm not a fan of trying to keep everything small and low key. Though I do think that two extra bases that are only accessible via teleport could be considered low key. I guess I simply don't see why it would be so much fun to keep the cult to only one base. I think the difference between 2 extra bases isn't really that large and that it doesn't bring the cult of Molag Bal any step closer to 'uber-wizardness'. I'm really getting the idea that these kind of additions would have some sort of detrimental effect or are breaking some kind of rule stating that they must be as low-key as possible.

Then again my perception of fun isn't universal, but I would like to understand how having only one base would make the Molag Bal experience more enjoyable then the alternative I proposed.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Well, I'm only coming from the same kind of perspective as you are, as in what would be most fun. I have no kind of special say here.

All I'm saying is, we (or even, 'I') don't want these guys to come across as some kind of insidious, 'taking control of the region with their large numbers of members' type uber-cult. These guys are very secretive, and they have to be. Even in Telvanni lands, get too 'enthusiastic', and it's only a matter of time before the Ordinators burn you all.

Having multiple bases, and making all kinds of trouble across the entire region is not exactly the best policy for a Cult that wants to survive. They can probably just about get away with killing someone like Ratagos, but you can't go much (if at all) further than that.

But like I say, this is only my position.
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Post by immortal_pigs »

Yes I get the idea now. Though having two bases only accessible through teleportation actually is secretive in my book, it is only plausible if you actually have a reasonably large amount of cultists.

But if that isn't the case then having two bases wouldn't make sense. I think it's a shame to make the cult small, though I don't like the idea of them taking over the region through sheer numbers either.

But I guess it really is a matter of how many cultists there are in total, because that is really the only factor that will or won't justify more then one base.

If there are about 15 cultists I think 1 base is the best as well. But any more than 20-25 and I think having multiple bases would make sense, no?

I probably got the wrong feel for the cult from the start since I was thinking 30-40 members.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Yeah, 15-17 is probably the top end of their numbers here. (I'd say, anyway - unless anyone out there is angling for a larger base?)
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Post by Theo »

I send another version of the file. The structure of the cult have not been outlined and I have not included the slave quests leaving two spaces fro them. The final quests might need some detail.
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Post by immortal_pigs »

Well you're right about the questline not being structured; it's like you get rank 3, and can leave the shrine, the you get rank 4 and a yet to be created quest, and then get rank 3 again and get to leave the cult again, but now you do the Salms Alen/Crassi Conciatus quest. So I'd say make it look like this, using the new hierarchy you created:

Rank 3 Enlightened
[These are basically your 'trial' quests in the real world]
- Kill Abeshnal
- Get Soulgems
- Make Draan commit suicide

Rank 4 Enforcer
QUEST

Rank 5 Enchanter
- Salms Alen/Crassi Conciatus
- Different Quest in between Maybe a ritual?
- Salms Alen has been captured

Rank 6 Cantor
- Quest in between Maybe another ritual?
- Continuation depending on Salms Alen killed/survived

[The rest is still a bit unclear]

Rank 7 Chaplain
Various Priest Quests.

Rank 8 Cleric
The rest of the story.
------------------------------

Suggestions:
Maybe make Percan Lucius a Dunmer, because I think the Dunmer would be more the type to work for the cult, plus being replaced by a Dunmer would be more suspicious to Crassi.

The idea of being turned into a vampire by conjurer/enchanter 1 is fine, but it shouldn't have such a large influence later on, because the PC really has no way of knowing the consequences of becoming or not becoming a vampire later on. So maybe it would be better if Priest 1 Cynical Vampire will say he'll only become your mentor if you become a vampire. Then he might offer to make you a vampire if you like. That way it's more of a conscious choice.

Lastly the ranks cantor, chaplain and cleric seem a but to pious and religious for a menacing cult like the cult of Molag Bal.
------------------------------

Okay, since the characters playing a role in the cult are still very vague, I thought I might at least give them names. If you want, I could give them all a bit more flavour and background.


Apprentice 1 Cynical Vampire
Nord Female
Ilfhi/Hreiri/Fryfnh/Hjotra

Apprentice 2 Cynicallish
Dark Elf Female
Dalavese Hleray/Andali Sendal/Llaalave Othril/Radene Milar

Apprentice 3 TB
Dark Elf Male
Salms Alen


Conjurer = Enchanter?
Conjurer 1 Cynical Vampire
Dark Elf Female
Morns Lasams/Mediloie Ulven/Enarvy Dalomo/Dilave Malvayn

Conjurer 2 TB
Dark Elf Male
Adryn Seloth

Conjurer 3 Cynicallish
Breton Female
Suranie/Vienele/Miliele


Warlock/Cantor/Chaplain? True Believer
Redguard
Kalortod/Camasnn/Gancolm


Priest 1 Vampire Cynical
High Elf or Dark Elf
Aldaril/Mirkrali/Tragrilar/Hyaril
Uvelaes Moloth/Golamus Drothan/Girendal Selvilo
Maybe as Dunmer he should only get a single name like most vampires.

Priest 2 Fanatical Believer
Dark Elf
Balam Othren/Llorys Othrenim/Drom Rarayn

Priest 3 True Believer
Dark Elf
Maryon Alammus/Lloran Sorayn/Androm Marend/Llethri Saram


So, based on the above, there would be only 10 members of the cult, which obviously isn't a lot.
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Post by Theo »

Yes the cult specifications and members have to be cleared. These are only members within the coven. There might be more covens in Morrowind and in Tamriel, but those might not be accessible to the player. There might be other members operating outside the base.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Personally, I am against having other members of 'this' Molag Bal cult in other parts of Tamriel, or even Morrowind.

Other people in other places would just set up their own cult. It's not as if every Mehrunes Dagon cultist is a member of the Mythic Dawn.

I'm pretty happy with the structure of Theo's line. I think it's important to have it done on a 'modular' basis, so that rather than having a wholly linear progression (as IP suggests) from quest set A to quest set B, some : such as the high-end warrior and the priest quests, can be done simultaneously, and the player gets to choose the order. This much better creates the sense of a living, breathing organisation, rather than the 'story-book' of Oblivion-esque factions.


I don't like the idea of the Prelate bit, but I think it would be very simple (and just as effective) to have the exact same quests take place, but instead of having to find an 'actual' Prelate or whatever, the player just has to find the 'lost prophecies' or whatever that talk of how you'd go about getting the ear of Molag Bal.

Then, rather than finding the prelate in the underwater city, there's just a 'boss-size' Dreugh there, who holds the ingredients necessary to forge the Ruddy-Man Armour. Create that armour, then do the ritual, then the cult names you Prelate.

This is better, IMO, and I feel takes us away from the 'insidious uber cult' feel.
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Post by Theo »

I agree on both points. Now perhaps someone else could upload the new version of the file. I believe we will have a final version before 09.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Good. I think the only thing that needs suggesting is perhaps some further differentiation in the later quests, depending on which Priest the player chose to support. (e.g. cynic priest wants player to do things that gain him and player more power, believer priest wants player to do things for the good of the cult/MB)
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Post by Gnomey »

Having the Ruddy Man armour, let alone forging it, doesn't work. The Ruddy Man was the carapace of how Molag Bal was supposed to have looked like when he led the dreugh, basically, and was one of the monster-children of Vivec. Vivec ended up giving it to mystics who went on to decipher secrets held within. I don't think that anyone managed to get it off of them after that, and if they tried Vivec would have probably had a say in it. If you didn't mean the Ruddy Man armour, I'd make that clearer. :wink:
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

I'd have said we're creating some fancy Dreugh armour that, in honour of the Ruddy Man, the molag Bal cultists call 'Ruddy Man's Armour' for their own comfort and feel of superiority. Or we're forging some armor that is good enough to effectively mantle the original Ruddy Man armour.

Take your pick.

(One thing - I think Theo's enchantments for the armour as they stand are too uber - but that's easy to change later)
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Post by Gnomey »

Gnomey wrote:If you didn't mean the Ruddy Man armour, I'd make that clearer. :wink:
:P I'd say the first choice, though, because the actual Ruddy Man "armour" was so powerful it allowed a Dunmer child to fight on fairly good terms with Vivec, helping Vivec in creating the West Gash while he was at it. That would require some powerful enchantment... (and destructible environments).
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Post by immortal_pigs »

Okay, so as I think you requested Theo, here is some extra flavor to the MB cultists. I've only done the Apprentice's so far, but if you approve I'll do the rest as well.


Apprentice 1 Cynical Vampire
Dark Elf Male
Girendal Selvilo

Before Girendal Selvilo became a vampire, he was a emotional manipulator. He would seek out needy and lonely people, seemingly befriend them, and then use them in whatever way he saw fit. Girendal thoroughly enjoyed dominating people and was constantly seeking new methods through which he could fill this need. For one, he read a lot of books on speechcraft, and eventually stumbled upon the magical school of Illusion. He tried to learn spells in this magical school, but had absolutely no natural talent in this area. Still, he desperately wanted to become adept at Illusion and eventually got the idea of becoming a vampire. The way he saw it, becoming a vampire was the best way to fulfill his manipulatory needs. So he searched across the lands for rumors of vampires, using people along the way. Eventually he came to Llothanis where he manipulated a young escaped Nordic Female slave to follow him around. In the dark, he tied her up and used her as bait to lure vampires, and eventually succeeded while being found by the Vampire Cynical Priest of the cult. The vampire bestowed Girendal with the gift of vampirism and took him in to the cult, while the Nordic Slave currently resides as cattle in the cult.

Girendal will only tell you his story if he likes you and you are a rank above him. During the possible slave line he will be very nice to you, but once become a servant he will use you in some way.


Apprentice 2 Cynicallish
Dark Elf Female
Andali Sendal

Andali Sendal could be described as your typical witch; she has no need to actually do evil things, but is simply fascinated with all things dark and foul. She was a cultist of the Boethian Cult before having met with Kalortod, the MBC Warlock. Kalortod informed her of the ways of Molag Bal, and she simply found the Daedric Lord of Domination far more fascinating then Boethiah. And so she left Boethiah and joined Molag Bal. In effect, she is sort of a low-level Lore Knowledgeable on the cult of Molag Bal; she knows the codex by heart, has read many books pertaining to Molag Bal, and generally knows a lot of facts. Although she is fascinated with the cult, she isn't actually a true believer; you could compare her to a Theologist fascinated with the Bible and Christianity, but not actually being a believer. Save for her dark fascination, she is actually a pretty normal person, and wants primarily to study the ways of the cult from the inside, while not actually wanting to do the cults bidding. Kalortod believes Andali will eventually become a very useful introductor to the cult and a good persuader to grow the cults membership.


Apprentice 3 TB
Dark Elf Male
Salms Alen

Salms Alen is special. While he is not particularly fascinated with the cult as Andali is, he is a firm believer in the Cult's prime premisses; that the world is ever changing, and that the Cult will create the new world order. Before coming into contact with the cult, Salms Alen was but only a feeble mage in the Mage's Guild, studying the magical school of Alteration. Though not particularly adept at any other magical schools, he came to believe that Alteration, the school of change, was the essence of being. "Everything changes, and through Alteration I am a harbringer of change", was a belief Salms Alen held to heart. His strong belief in change led him to question all existing authorities, all Dunmer conventions and traditions, common sensical beliefs and anything else with a conservative smell. Salms was becoming a rebel, a revolutionary, a critic of what has always been, and started to indulge himself with alternative ideas, minorities, and eventually, Daedric Cults. His rebellions eventually got him kicked out of the Mages Guild, and soon he was contacted by Kalortod the Warlock of the MBC. Kalortod saw potential in Salms Alen, and brought him into the cult, which Salms Alen quickly accepted as his true home.

Well Salms Alen is perhaps a bit too extreme the way I'm portraying him, so when implemented ingame he should probably be less extreme, but you get the idea. At least this might justify why he gets entrusted with amulets and sent on big missions while others don't.

-------------------------------------
These are the rank names we currently have:

1 – INITIATE
2 – CULT SERVANT
3 – ENLIGHTENED
4 – ENFORCER
5 – ENCHANTER
6 – CANTOR
7 – CHAPLAIN
8 – CLERIC
9 – PRELATE
10 – HIEROPHANT

I still think Cantor/Chaplain/Cleric are too pure and good sounding. I know they are religious titles, but being a "Cleric of Molag Bal" still gives me a conflicting rather then fitting feel. I liked the Warlock rank so perhaps put that one back in?

I still haven't heard your reaction on the suggestions I posted above. A 'yes'/'no' is all I'm asking for. :P

Oh and I agree on having a modular questline, the reason I made it linear was because I was just trying to order up the file I was reading, not because I wanted a linear line.

When you said the cult specifications were supposed to be cleared Theo, did you mean you were going to rearrange the questline, or that someone else should do it, or did you mean something else?
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Post by Gez »

immortal_pigs wrote: 1 – INITIATE
2 – CULT SERVANT
3 – ENLIGHTENED
4 – ENFORCER
5 – ENCHANTER
6 – CANTOR
7 – CHAPLAIN
8 – CLERIC
9 – PRELATE
10 – HIEROPHANT

I still think Cantor/Chaplain/Cleric are too pure and good sounding. I know they are religious titles, but being a "Cleric of Molag Bal" still gives me a conflicting rather then fitting feel. I liked the Warlock rank so perhaps put that one back in?
Hierophant means "holy teacher" (in that he shows people what is holy) so it's worse than chaplain as far as "pure and good" goes. :P (Same etymological root as "hieroglyphs", who are literally holy glyphs.) As for warlock, it means "oath breaker".
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