Map 3 NPC Claim #2 [Yeti]

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Post by Aeven »

(Because I can't edit)

New WIP. Basic stuff about Roa Dyr is done. Among other things, compressed into just two cells rather than three. Take a look :)
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Post by Katze »

I quite like it. Didn't there used to be a Silt Strider, though?
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Post by Aeven »

Yes, there was. I could add one again, but it's accessible by boat now, and I don't think this needs to be a transport hub.
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Post by Why »

Cathartis wrote:The bridges need to remain high enough that ships can pass under them, as the river Thirr is the centre of Morrowind ship trade.
I know. Here's what I was thinking. In the file I just downloaded Almas Thirr looks like this: http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/WhyAreWeFighting/AlmasThirrcurrent.jpg

My idea was to sink the canton but move up the bridges, like this: http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/WhyAreWeFighting/AlmasThirridea.jpg

I think it looks better, and it actually leaves more room under the bridges. Also it's more in line with what vanilla did, all vanilla cantons are sunk like image two.

But I should probably shut up because I'm not an exterior modder. :P
Last edited by Why on Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

I agree with Why that at present Almas Thirr looks a bit ungainly, especially with those flimsy bridges which just look a tad awkward. (EDIT: his simple solution also improves matters quite a bit)

Vaguely musing, would it be possible to add Velothi structures around the canton either side creating a 'mega bridge', which could then have 'canal locks' (just without the water level changing stuff) providing access for boats, and facilitating collection of duties etc for the authorities, by completely monopolising control of the Thirr.

Very vague sketch attached, don't know if this is even plausible with exterior pieces, or if it would look any good in reality.

(to get over the locks there would be either mini bridges going across if they're built tall, or tunnels going underneath if they're built small)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5967/athirr.png
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Post by Why »

Something like http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/WhyAreWeFighting/athirrBC.jpg ? I don't know, maybe. Those pillars are 2.0, but it looks doable.
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Post by Aeven »

I could really use those concepts, thanks! As for sluice gates, I would need some kind of scripted door or something, but I can build the rest already. How do people feel about buildings on a bridge? It happened a lot throughout history, though later many of these were demolished.
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Post by Why »

One issue would be that while I did a quick mockup on the east side of the canton which kinda works, the part of the river at the west of the canton is way wider.

I don't think we should have sluice gates, at least not solid ones. After all, this is a river that needs to flow. Underwater fences that lower into the ground might work (and are easy to script) but I'm not sure if those would fit in a velothi fortress.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

I don't see why the gates need to actually physically move at all. It isn't as though a boat is actually going to pass through here.

Also, I love the channel idea and the raising the bridge idea. I do think though that there would need to be something on the lower level to make it not completely empty should we go with this plan.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Here's a (again very rough) mock up of something more like my original drawing, less ornate than Why's, without the high bridges and instead the singular 'megabridge' which incorporates the canton itself. In this instance, I built low, so crossing the river would be done by 'tunnels' between the two 'halves'.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5967/athirr.png

Somewhere in TR Data I think there's a Velothi floor piece with the brown Vivec tiling, which would make it look more like a single unified stronghold, but I wasn't trying hard enough to bother finding it.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

Aeven, I really like your new Roa Dyr. :] It might pay to add a siltstrider somewhere there though to connect the city to the land network.

Cool ideas with Almas Thirr there too.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

What if we rigged up a double or triple sized bridge above the channel lock type thing and put buildings on that as well. As it stands, I can't imagine that a bridge over the channel thing is going to look very good considering how high it has to go to clear a ship's sail.
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Post by Aeven »

New WIP with first work on Almas Thirr, based on concepts.
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Post by Tyrion »

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:What if we rigged up a double or triple sized bridge above the channel lock type thing and put buildings on that as well. As it stands, I can't imagine that a bridge over the channel thing is going to look very good considering how high it has to go to clear a ship's sail.
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Post by Aeven »

Right, the first customs and toll gate is complete.

I can imagine quests from Hlaalu trying to get stuff through this illegally.

There is but one building, it leads to the dock (ship is there for scale unless we decide otherwise.)

The portcullises can be scripted to lower at the press of one of the two buttons. The current height is the maximum.
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Post by Tyrion »

Does there have to be a bridge at Almas Thirr?

A bridge is feasible at that location, however, Aeven will need to re-landscape the riverbanks and river channel. As it stands, the velothi set can not deal with a span over such a height. Which is why I bring up the point of, is a bridge there necessary? For a boat to pass beneath that bridge the bridge is going to be higher than the velothi set can really go with its pylons sized up to 2x (and that's just to act as pylons, they were never intended for that purpose). As it stands, I think the bridges look terribly awkward. You can tell the architecture set can't properly handle the position its trying to be used in. My philosophy is not to make a round peg fit a square hole. Thus, I feel it would be simpler to remove the bridge, move the canton to the center of the river, and be done with it. Aeven made a very nice platform addition along the waterline of the canton in his lock design. That can be used as a dock and a way to tie the canton structure down to a waterfront and connect it with the river. The waterfront could tie into the canton proper via the canalworks level. Transport to the opposite shore would be via gondola. Small velothi settlements (not more than a half dozen or so structures on each bank) would serve at the ferry points. Overall I feel this would look and feel a lot better. It would be more pleasing to look at and play through, and makes better sense I think, given our resources to play with.

Now, Thrig brought up the point that, there is no other bridge over the Thirr River except here, and no way for traffic to cross the river except at this bridge. Now, if you would argue a bridge is necessary I would offer you these arguements: that a bridge is not necessary if you create a ferry. Indeed, in our mundane plane of reality many large rivers were in fact crossed this way for centuries before bridges were eventually built, so it is in fact possible to have cross-river traffic without a bridge. Next I would ask whether we can't add a bridge upstream.

If we can't do either these things: add a bridge upstream or content ourselves with a ferry, then we must needs find a way to comfortably bridge the river in an aesthetically pleasing manner. What Aeven should attempt to do is to minimize the actual space he needs to span with the velothi bridge set. Our biggest problem here is height, made doubly so with the depth of the river, followed by length which makes the unsupported velothi span look terribly awkward, which brings me back to the points made at the beginning of my post. Firstly Aeven should be reshaping the terrain, then finding ways to bridge the river without actually using a bridge. The western bridge as a low, London Bridge type affair with structures acting as support I like, and I'd like to see that in a concept. The eastern bit still has the issue of the deep channel and height of the ship. Aeven proposed a balcony bridge. I'd like to see that in a concept as well. Hell, I'd like to see/hear any brainstorms on the problem. I'm sure between the lot of us we can figure something out that looks good.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Aeven should definitely move the canton to the center of the river, as I told him on IRC last night.

Can't we consider the tunnel system I proposed as the alternative if a bridge can't be built high enough?

Your ferry idea sounds like it could be nice, though I still like my idea of the canton itself as one huge mega bridge.

Aeven's bridge doesn't look that awkward, does it?


Whatever the case, Almas Thirr is The badass bridge, and there should be no other Thirr crossing.
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Post by Aeven »

I'm not entirely clear what people mean here by moving to the centre of the river. Would that be closer to one the banks, or to the north?
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Post by Katze »

Equidistant from the banks is how I understood it.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

The bridges don't actually need to be higher than the ships masts; rather just seem like they are.
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Post by Why »

I must say I absolutely love what you've done with the east side. That bridge not only looks totally plausible but is also aesthetically pleasing. Maybe it would look even better if you manage to find a floor static that is reminiscent of the canton floor.

About moving the canton, I think it'd be a shame to have to alter what has been done there. An easier solution to bridge the gap at the west side, would be to rotate the canton 90 degrees. The interior northmarkers would have to be realigned, but it'd considerably narrow the gap between river bank and canton. (It'd make sense to have the shafts leading up inside the canton go east-west as well)

edit: I also like your portcullises. You could steal Ghostgate's script to move them, or if you want me to I can post the scripts that should be attached to them here.
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Post by Aeven »

Here's what I believe, with detail, could be the final design for Almas Thirr.

I also added a mesh that resembles the canton floors. Place it under Meshes\TR\x and everything should work. I would like for it to be added to TR_Data.

@Why: if you could create a script for it, that'd be great. The current height would be max height, and both have different switches.

(Edit for tiny update to fix tiny issues)
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Post by Scamp »

Nice work, Aeven. The new mesh looks really good here. But, didn't BC mention that something like this already existed in TR_data? Or perhaps I was misunderstanding...
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Post by Aeven »

I was unable to find such a piece, and I know how to navigate Data, so I think this is okay.

What's nice is that the mesh as 2.00 has the same texture size as the canton floor.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

I really really like it.

The lack of symmetry makes my design sense cringe a little at first, but I'll probably get used to it.

The 'exterior cave' entrance to the bridge on the east side is in my opinion pretty bad. It's so obviously unnecessary, and looks far too pokey for what needs to be the grand crossing of the Thirr. The west side bridge entrance has the right idea. Going across that truly feels like an event, wheras that weird cave thing is just... weird.

And, how many times are me and TF gonna have to say: don't make the portcullises move! :P



Re: symmetry, the attached image with the (right hand side in the image) bridge section moved to be more central just makes the whole thing a lot easier on the eye, to me anyway.
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Post by Tyrion »

I agree with BC, I don't like the eastern bridge. Its too small and doesn't fit properly the way you want it to.
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Post by Haplo »

It needs something else; it's too small to be regal enough on its own.
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Post by Why »

I'll take the risk of being annoying and ask why the portcullises shouldn't move. True, it's not exactly necessary, but it's a fun little detail. Besides, it'll emphasize them for the casual observer which is a good thing since we want to stress the political importance of the Thirr. And it's not like they'd be moving all over the place, just a simple lower and raise motion on the press of a button, very much like Ghostgate. It'd take me five minutes to write a script, and take Aeven five minutes to implement.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

It's one of those things that I think would undermine realism rather than add to it. a) why can the player, some random schmoe, just slap a switch and release the ship customs are investigating? b) when it moves, we don't have any suitable sound effects so it will just slowly dip beneath the waves looking far too smooth. c) it re-uses the otherwise unique Ghostgate triolith and button, which is a classic 'moddy' thing to do.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

If it isn't too much hastle, would you be able to move the canton to the north a little bit, so that you don't get a cell change when walking around the southern side?
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Post by Aeven »

Already ahead of you Nomadic! :D
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Post by Why »

Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:It's one of those things that I think would undermine realism rather than add to it. a) why can the player, some random schmoe, just slap a switch and release the ship customs are investigating? b) when it moves, we don't have any suitable sound effects so it will just slowly dip beneath the waves looking far too smooth. c) it re-uses the otherwise unique Ghostgate triolith and button, which is a classic 'moddy' thing to do.
Ok, makes sense. Thanks.

Aeven, I noticed you've been using ancestral tomb entrances (in your file anyway, maybe you're ahead of me too ;)), I think it's a good idea to alternate/replace those with ex_vivec_ent_b_01, .._ent_t_01, .._ent_t_02 and/or ..ent_telt_01. Maybe you could add a few of those doors to the back of the towers on the lower platform so that one can reach the canton by going up a ladder in (one of) those buildings. There's also some flickering caused by overlapping bridge pieces in your eastern bridge thing. (It looks amazing though!)
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Post by Aeven »

Fixed (I think) all the issues people had with Almas Thirr. I've also added the interior for the actual canton building.

I actually lost a lot of work during some issues I had and had to revert to an earlier file, so it's possible I fixed stuff but didn't re-fix it. Be sure to tell me of issues.

The canalworks need to be adjusted to accommodate for the new entrances to the waterfront. I guess it should be reopened as a "fix" claim ( i3-58 ).
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Post by Haplo »

Why not just work from your latest uploaded file in that case?
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Post by Aeven »

I found a file that was newer.

Edit: Added a new file for BC before he goes to bed.

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Post by Katze »

CS piccie I took of Almas Thirr :3
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

Perhaps the bridge on the west should have a wider path so carts can theoretically fit.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Personally I think it looks great at capturing the bustling feel of the concept art. Maybe realism can take a brief nap for the sake of art? :P
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Post by Tyrion »

I agree with both TF and BC. It should be wider, but to what end? No carts are actually going to come through. It could be redesigned to be wider and keep the same feel though, if its really work it though, I don't know. It looks nice enough already.
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Post by Aeven »

Yo, check this out.
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