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Lud
Developer Emeritus
27 Aug 2004

Location: Ireland

Okay, here's the city:

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/723/alma.png

The white text are the city's regions as it stands, the yellow is particular locations. I've also been trying to get a handle on what each region is supposed to be like by looking at its ints. This was I can try and give the city a semblance of cohesion, with proper poor and rich districts.

If necessary, it might make sense to move the odd building, where there are rich manors in poor areas and vice versa.

I'm definitely planning to do the rickshaw thing, that'll be fun. Those things you mentioned won't be hard either, BC.

Lore-wise, something I'm not sure about is how poor the Indoril working/underclass should be. Thoughts?


Last edited by Lud on Wed May 26, 2010 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue May 25, 2010 1:40 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bloodthirsty Crustacean
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2007

Location: Elsewhere

And to clarify, I'm going to Grant this. It's within my remit, I guess, seeing as Quests and dialogue go hand in hand, and these claims include quests...

Lots of updates please, yum yum. And please run any changes you intend to make to the exterior past this thread first.

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Last edited by Bloodthirsty Crustacean on Tue May 25, 2010 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue May 25, 2010 2:27 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Why
Lead Developer
04 Jul 2009

Location: Utrecht

Just throwing this out there, but two things I've always found odd are the small houses that really don't look like manors in the top-right part of the manor district, and the lack of a (small) dock area (since the farmers downriver ship stuff here, right?)
Post Tue May 25, 2010 2:30 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
immortal_pigs
Developer
15 May 2008

Location: Utrecht

It seems to me, based on the top down architecture, that there would be a division something like this.

Poor
Sarethan Quarter (aren't those appartments?)
Western Gate
Triffith Sandril Plaza

Poor/Middle Class
Velothril Avenue

Middle Class/Rich
Indoril District
Manor District

===

For the poor perhaps something like this:
- They are poor in the sense that they have to work long hours, but they are kept well fed and live in quite respectable housings. As a result the poor are actually quite contended with the Indoril rule and they are too busy to think of rebellion anyway.
- The law in Almalexia can be quite harsh and just. Commoners who break the law may be fined quite severely or exiled from Almalexia to keep it righteous and pure. As a result most poor don't even think of crime.
- Occasionally the Indoril send out Inquisitors to the poor districts to purge heresy. As a result the more criminally inclined of the poor are quite religious in the sense that they respect the Temple due to fear.
- Most of the poor are religious regardless of Inquisition, finding it too be quite amusing and allowing them to feel superior to those of less pious nature. Maybe witches are publicly executed, burnt on the pyre, and the poor gather in joy and awe.
- All in all the poor in Almalexia are only really poor when it comes to financial capital and buying power. The Temple cures them of their sickness, bread and eggs are abundant and cheap and the rule of law keeps criminality at a minimum.
- Basically the Indoril have succeeded very well at keeping the plebs happy and fed and under their control.

Maybe the inquisition stuff is too violent for the Indoril but otherwise this should be pretty sensible.
Post Tue May 25, 2010 2:32 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



I am going to be making a number of remarks about what we should do with the city of Almalexia. They are in no particular order. Note that what I am saying refers to my quick exploration of the city in the CS. I may be referring to something that's already been changed, but as far as I can judge from Lud's top view, the issues I will address are still relevant. If I am wrong, however, please correct me.


Same old thing

I'm going to put on the broken record first. This city has a lot of statues. Most of these are really big. All of these are copied at least more than once. This reduces the statues to place-fillers and commodities, while they should be reserved for really exceptional places. What's even worse is that all of the statues depict Almalexia with a sword, which is wrong. To the Indoril, especially in this city, Almalexia is the Loving Mother Who Provides For Us In Our Every Hour. What is even even worse is that all the non-Almalexia statues are on roofs.

The solution is simple: they must go. By 'they' I mean the following:

- The statue of Almalexia-on-Broadway in front of the Ordinators fort. This - and the three pillars that say Almalexia in case it wasn't obvious enough yet - should be removed. They can be replaced with anything that's not a statue.

- The identical statue a little while further by the Indoril Council building. This can be replaced by anything that's not a statue. My suggestion would be a scenic viewpoint over the city.

- The statue of Almalexia in the planter to the south of the Indoril Council building. This can be replaced with anything that's not a statue. I'd suggest a tree or such.

- The statue of St. Delyn on top of St. Delyn's Abbey. The Abbey doesn't need a mascot. This statue can be replaced with anything not anything.

By the way: Delyn was a lawyer and an expert on Tribunal law and custom. How about we change this from a monastery (which we have a bunch of already) to an institute of law? Granted, then it's garden wouldn't work. The other option would be to make this the Abbey of St. Llothis, who was actually a well-known priest and also Indoril. (And face it: Delyn and Olms get all the attention already just because they have statues.)

- The three statues on the high buildings surrounding the Alma Rula's place. These are just camp. They should not be replaced with anything, obviously.

- The huge statue of Almalexia on what is known as Triffith Sandril plaza. (Especially since there already is a statue of her on the next plaza inside the fortress. This could be replaced with a nice ornament.



Huge

Some of the buildings in the city are really unduly HUGE. I say we remedy this to some degree for the ones that don't have interiors yet. We could either replace their blank vastness with more interesting and detailed smaller buildings, or at least shrink them down some. Buildings that, in my opinion are under consideration for this:

- the Ordinator fort
- what Lud labeled "Terith manor"
- what Lud labeled "Taythionis castle"
- Alma Rula's palace (especially the top)
- what Lud labeled "House embassy"
- the Cathedral of Almalexia (this should be called something else than cathedral)
- some of the huge apartment buildings in the south
- the two towers next to the southern gate that are even bigger than the gate itself


Organization
As Why pointed out, the organization of the city as it currently stands doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I suggest we consider this thoroughly before taking any further steps. First I shall outline the problems:

A first problem is, as Why mentioned, that the "manor" district in fact contains a bunch of relatively small, repetitive houses, which suggest middle class.

Secondly: the area south of the Indoril councilhouse, has many tightly packed houses and labyrinthine streets. Also, it is noticeably lower in elevation than the Indoril council house. This place has a lot of atmosphere we don't want to go to waste.


I am going to suggest an alternative division of the city. I made a visual representation of it, to make it a little more clear. (I took the liberty of adapting your picture, Lud, because I didn't have time to make my own screenshot.)

[LINK]

This is the division:

- We seem to have forgotten that a significant part of Mournhold was already taken up by manors. In this division, Godsreach lines up with the aristocratic area outside of Mournhold. It makes further sense, since this actually includes the area where the buildings are significantly bigger than elsewhere. There is a rather high concentration of these buildings here, but that makes sense. The Indoril are more urban than any other House. Especially the high-ranking Indoril spend their time in the most important city in the land, living off the money they make off their estates elsewhere.

- The north-western corner is mostly inhabited by established citizens. They lack the economic or political power of their southern neighbors, but they live in modest luxury. These are successful traders and other sorts of nouveau riche.

- The southern part of the city is occupied by honest, hard working craftsmen and small-scale traders. They live in large apartment buildings and work in communal 'guild' centers. This is traditionally also the area where most foreigners settle, since it's neither too expensive nor too Dunmer.

- The northeastern area of the city is held by House Indoril proper. Situated here are buildings crucial to the House Indoril on a political (the council), military (the Ordinators barracks) and administrative level. The Grand Ascendant's cloister is House property and is usually offered to the current head of the House.

- The eastern area of the city, far below the Indoril councilhouse and down by the river, is labyrinthine and dirty. Though it has many colorful market stalls and inhabitants, it is also home to many of the city's beggars. Down by the river, farmers sell their goods from their boats. The Morag Tong also makes its home here. I suggest the area should stretch downwards toward the river a bit, with increasingly crappy buildings.


See my future post for an atmospheric description of these places.
Post Tue May 25, 2010 3:33 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Thrignar Fraxix
Developer Emeritus
06 Dec 2004

Location: Silnim

Every building in almalexia has an interior. Some are currently being redone though. Some already have been redone. Should I put the ones that are currently claimed on hold?
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Post Tue May 25, 2010 4:43 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Why
Lead Developer
04 Jul 2009

Location: Utrecht

The (what I assume is a) cute little theatre in the middle of the large square in Velothril Avenue is missing an int. I assume it isn't in the file or linked yet?

edit: wrote this before I saw TF's post, no disrespect intended.


Last edited by Why on Tue May 25, 2010 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue May 25, 2010 5:10 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Thrignar Fraxix wrote:
Every building in almalexia has an interior. Some are currently being redone though. Some already have been redone. Should I put the ones that are currently claimed on hold?

I see. This seems like a good idea: put the claims on hold for a short amount of time until we have this sorted out.


I still forgot to add this: My suggestion for the city organization doesn't really require any exteriors buildings to be moved except for the "Taythionis Castle" to a more sensible location.
Post Tue May 25, 2010 5:36 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Why
Lead Developer
04 Jul 2009

Location: Utrecht

I'm by no means a lore expert, so this might be a stupid idea. Still, I thought it was rather okay, so posting it anyway. This is inspired partially by Adanorcil's post here.

Since the Indoril emphasize community, law and tradition, taking into account the heavily urban character of Almalexia, one possible explanation for the lack of a traditional "lower class" in the capital (you know, no slums/shacks) would be that the wealthy Indoril nobles care for the poor in a way similar to ancient Rome's social convention of clientela (link).

The high nobility and Chancellors of House Indoril living in Almalexia (and perhaps beyond) would each sponsor a part of the city's Indoril populace, benevolently supporting them with loans, legal and political protection, and donations of food or small amounts of money, in exchange for their loyalty and political and ceremonial support. Each Indoril in the city would be assigned a high-ranking patron, either directly or by being subject to a lesser noble associated with the patron. Obviously the status of the noble is determined by how well he caters for his clients, so it would go a long way to reduce directly apparent poverty among the lower classes.

This would not only serve the practical purpose of explaining the lack of shacks in/around Almalexia, but also provide some great opportunities for the early Indoril questline and joining the house. The player would have to find a lower noble willing to accept an outlander as a client, as a requirement for joining the House or advancing beyond the first one or two ranks, a bit like the vanilla Telvanni requiring you to find a patron to advance beyond Lawman. Contrary to the Telvanni though the patron would be much more like a father figure instead of a master, guiding the player and acting as a consultant in the Indoril ways for the PC instead of directly giving him orders. On top of that it could create a nice basis for higher-up quests about political tension within the house.

Judging from the interiors in Almalexia alone there are more than enough obscenely rich Indoril nobles to act as patrons for their lower ranking bretheren.
Post Tue May 25, 2010 7:42 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Why wrote:
I'm by no means a lore expert, so this might be a stupid idea. Still, I thought it was rather okay, so posting it anyway. This is inspired partially by Adanorcil's post here.

Since the Indoril emphasize community, law and tradition, taking into account the heavily urban character of Almalexia, one possible explanation for the lack of a traditional "lower class" in the capital (you know, no slums/shacks) would be that the wealthy Indoril nobles care for the poor in a way similar to ancient Rome's social convention of clientela (link).

The high nobility and Chancellors of House Indoril living in Almalexia (and perhaps beyond) would each sponsor a part of the city's Indoril populace, benevolently supporting them with loans, legal and political protection, and donations of food or small amounts of money, in exchange for their loyalty and political and ceremonial support. Each Indoril in the city would be assigned a high-ranking patron, either directly or by being subject to a lesser noble associated with the patron. Obviously the status of the noble is determined by how well he caters for his clients, so it would go a long way to reduce directly apparent poverty among the lower classes.

This would not only serve the practical purpose of explaining the lack of shacks in/around Almalexia, but also provide some great opportunities for the early Indoril questline and joining the house. The player would have to find a lower noble willing to accept an outlander as a client, as a requirement for joining the House or advancing beyond the first one or two ranks, a bit like the vanilla Telvanni requiring you to find a patron to advance beyond Lawman. Contrary to the Telvanni though the patron would be much more like a father figure instead of a master, guiding the player and acting as a consultant in the Indoril ways for the PC instead of directly giving him orders. On top of that it could create a nice basis for higher-up quests about political tension within the house.

Judging from the interiors in Almalexia alone there are more than enough obscenely rich Indoril nobles to act as patrons for their lower ranking bretheren.


This is pretty much what I had in mind, but I would certainly steer away from a client-patron, or at least make it far less obvious. A House structure makes large political backing unnecessary. The Indoril, however, should care about 'community service' and 'charity', but the rich would do this more out of a sense of -imposed- moral obligation, than to garner political support. Think of them handing out bread atop a palanquin.

The lack of shacks doesn't really need to be explained.
Post Tue May 25, 2010 8:05 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Nomadic1
Developer Emeritus
15 May 2004

Location: Adelaide, Australia

Adanorcil wrote:

Huge

Some of the buildings in the city are really unduly HUGE. I say we remedy this to some degree for the ones that don't have interiors yet. We could either replace their blank vastness with more interesting and detailed smaller buildings, or at least shrink them down some. Buildings that, in my opinion are under consideration for this:

- the Ordinator fort
- what Lud labeled "Terith manor"
- what Lud labeled "Taythionis castle"
- Alma Rula's palace (especially the top)
- what Lud labeled "House embassy"
- the Cathedral of Almalexia (this should be called something else than cathedral)
- some of the huge apartment buildings in the south
- the two towers next to the southern gate that are even bigger than the gate itself

Can I add to that the imperial guilds tower? So that each guildhall is its own building to make them easier to find and access.

I've thought about the Ordinator's fortress before and have a less-huge solution, but it might require a bit of a rework off the surrounding area and a new mesh. The large central tower on top of the building contains the offices for the Ordinators. Simply remove the tower, and move these offices to new buildings around a small undecorated courtyard in front of it. The ordinator's jail could be moved to nearby, instead of near the strider port.

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Post Tue May 25, 2010 9:32 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

I honestly don't get what's wrong with the current system. Most of these buildings have a lobby area too. The player could always ask for "directions in the building".

Also, the Alma Rula's palace has just been remade.
Also, a building such as the Cathedral is intended to be big.
Post Tue May 25, 2010 9:41 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



[quote="Aeven"]I honestly don't get what's wrong with the current system. Most of these buildings have a lobby area too. The player could always ask for "directions in the building"./quote]I'm not following this.
Post Tue May 25, 2010 10:26 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
RelinQ
Member
01 Feb 2008

Location: Between Australia & Germany

Wow this is real landmark for TR, to finally get to this point to NPC and Dialogue for Almalexia (In part of the forum viewable by all), thats sure something Very Happy

Good luck with the claim Lud, we look foward to the results!

In Addition:
Nomadic1 wrote:
...The ordinator's jail could be moved to nearby, instead of near the strider port.


Nomadic raises a point,

When I first looked at your Map Ada, It made me wonder why would a wealthy aristocracy area have a prison in it?
But even putting it in the Indoril District may incur the same dilemma being that It's a well off area;
(Although... moving it it to where Nomadic suggested, you would tend to think it would be more heavily protected. Neutral )

Ignoring my own contradictions there, Still a point to consider.
Post Tue May 25, 2010 10:50 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

The Cathedral of Almalexia (which should indeed get a name change) is the most beautiful interior in all of TR, and by extension, all of Morrowind (since our interiors are better than Bethesda interiors). I would rather die than see it redone or re-sized.
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Post Wed May 26, 2010 4:01 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Thrignar Fraxix
Developer Emeritus
06 Dec 2004

Location: Silnim

It at least needs to be less of a statue-gasm. I am more in favor of it being redone though. (Haplo, I'm sure we both know it could still be impressive without being as large. We just need to drag Cire back here)
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Post Wed May 26, 2010 6:01 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Thrignar Fraxix wrote:
I am more in favor of it being redone though. (Haplo, I'm sure we both know it could still be impressive without being as large. We just need to drag Cire back here)

I agree with this, but I do understand the hesitance somewhat. We can look at other things first.

Quote:

Can I add to that the imperial guilds tower? So that each guildhall is its own building to make them easier to find and access.

I never really understood where those were anyway.


Quote:
I've thought about the Ordinator's fortress before and have a less-huge solution, but it might require a bit of a rework off the surrounding area and a new mesh. The large central tower on top of the building contains the offices for the Ordinators. Simply remove the tower, and move these offices to new buildings around a small undecorated courtyard in front of it. The ordinator's jail could be moved to nearby, instead of near the strider port.

These are all very good suggestions. There are plenty of buildings near the ordinator fort where we could move the administration to. The ordinator jail can then be moved to the Indoril district (which actually make sense) and out of the wealthy area. My suggestion would be to move it to one of the (slightly downsized) huge buildings to the south of the Indoril councilhouse. You'd expect to find a jail in the seedy part of town, anyway. Whatever manor we replace with that can probably be moved to a better area, if we actually really need it.
Post Wed May 26, 2010 9:06 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Lud
Developer Emeritus
27 Aug 2004

Location: Ireland

Regarding the Cathedral, it definitely needs a new name (as I mentioned in its thread), but I don't see any need to size down the interior. The interior isn't tall enough for the ex as it is, so it could be halved in size simply by sinking it. The extra statues will be removed, new version up soon.
Cheers for the compliment, Hap. Smile

Regarding statues in general, many of them can quite nicely be replaced with trees (TR's "oaks" could work nicely, as I believe they are used extensively in the Lan Orethan nearby. There are plenty of interior statues to be axed too.

A few things should be noted:
-The region south of the craftsman's hall is poor apartments and would make a great place for bread hand-outs. (Some of the exterior tents would work perfectly.
-Two of the buildings outside the Alma Rula's palace are abbeys. Might this be the nexus for a Temple district?
-The northern part of the Indoril district is indeed much richer than the rest, so that fits your plan.
-Triffith Sandril plaza is largely quite rich. Might be a nice place to move the guilds and such while splitting them out, if you still want this as an area for foreigners.
-As the decline of the Indoril would probably lead to a decline in their trade prospects and commercial activity, a nice theme would be for the merchants to often be finding it hard to get by, with trade moving to Narsis, etc.

I'm proposing the following, based on Ada's suggestions & my observations of the city in CS & game:
-Move Taythionis Castle to the Indoril district or Sarethan Quarter. Actually, the House embassy and Taythionis castle could be swapped in position quite nicely, perhaps.
-Make southern Indoril District (yellow in Ada's map) the region for the unemployed poor & criminal elements. Docks could also be added here for river traffic, along with warehouses, etc. The docks could easily be the worst hit with "the recession".
-Make the Velothril Avenue district (not an avenue, needs a new name) the area for the working class, honest and hardworking, but not well-to-do. (Fits well with things like the labourer's hall here, etc.)
-Make the Triffith Sandril Plaza the foreigner's region (separate from Velothril, which would be for workers and richer. Possibly move the Fg & MG here.
-Manor district to house wealthy middle class.
-Sarethan Quarter for the rich and for temple things.
-Indoril district (now two cells only) for the Indoril's administrative, lawgiving element, etc, along with some rich houses, etc.

More to come later

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Post Wed May 26, 2010 11:36 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bloodthirsty Crustacean
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2007

Location: Elsewhere

Personally, I think our 'oaks' look a bit unpleasant when they're isolated on their own - the more verdant AI trees are better, if you ask me (although the 'FZ' oaks are alright - just avoid the 'ND' ones like the plague).

I think Guilds with seperate buildings, new interiors befitting their 'head status', and placed in Triffith Sandil is a great idea.

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a man melts the sand so he
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"They destroyed Morrowind? Fiddlesticks! Now we're going to have to rebuild it again!"


Last edited by Bloodthirsty Crustacean on Wed May 26, 2010 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed May 26, 2010 12:31 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
blackbird
Reviewer
01 Mar 2007

Location: Brugge (bruges), Flanders, Belgium

I didn't place docks, because I found out that there was no decent place to add them. I didn't want to add docks at the MH related cells.
Haplo was also against the expansion of Almalexia, since it was already the biggest city of MW.
I don't care about the tatyonis castle, but I'm no big fan of redoing the great house embassy or redoing the imperial guilds. However having a seperate imperial guild is a good idea.

My only remark for now is that you're late with this. I mean there was an almalexia thread on the private forum and none of you said some ints (except for those who predated TF) and some buildings should be toned down or changed. It was more like: how could we improve the city.
However I must confess that I didn't dare to change much at the city.
Post Wed May 26, 2010 1:25 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Bloodthirsty Crustacean
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2007

Location: Elsewhere

It's never too late whilst it's still unmerged and without NPCs. Don't worry, this isn't any comment on your work, except that yes we could have been more organised.

All these proposed changes are definitely for the better, however. Adanorcil very much knows what he's talking about.

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a man builds a city
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a man melts the sand so he
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Post Wed May 26, 2010 1:43 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Lud
Developer Emeritus
27 Aug 2004

Location: Ireland

How would "the People's Fane" suit as a name for the Cathedral? I'm hesitant though, as I'm not sure whether this word is supposed to be reserved for the holiest of holies. If not, it would be nice to emphasize its role as a public and highly accessible place of worship.

Regarding the Ordinator's fort, one big building and a few smaller ones, including the prison, around a plaza sounds good to me.

I'm fine with having huge manors, seems to fit the Indoril well to me. Whatever other people decide I can implement though.

How much crime should this place have? There must be some, but I don't think a huge underworld really fits, despite its size.

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Post Wed May 26, 2010 4:14 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bloodthirsty Crustacean
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2007

Location: Elsewhere

No Fane. On crime, I'd think no dramatically more than say the mild seediness of Vivec's Underworks. I think the best for the 'squalor' area is lots of docks and warehouses and bustling market type activity, full of "colorful market stalls and inhabitants". Rogues and the like are loitering around, but we don't want the player to feel threatened or like they're entering a seriously dodgy part of town.
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a man builds a city
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a man melts the sand so he
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Post Wed May 26, 2010 4:56 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Quote:

Regarding statues in general, many of them can quite nicely be replaced with trees (TR's "oaks" could work nicely, as I believe they are used extensively in the Lan Orethan nearby. There are plenty of interior statues to be axed too.

How about some mushrooms? We're still in Morrowind, after all.

Quote:

-The region south of the craftsman's hall is poor apartments and would make a great place for bread hand-outs. (Some of the exterior tents would work perfectly.

I had thought about bread hand-outs in the really poor area to the east, so that it would like charity and not just some guy trying to get people to like him. In the midst of that area, hidden away in an alley, is the very popular shrine of Almalexia Mother-of-Bread, which is tended to solely by beggars and the homeless, who are fiercely loyal to the goddess. Hand-outs are organized there regularly.

Quote:

-Two of the buildings outside the Alma Rula's palace are abbeys. Might this be the nexus for a Temple district?

More abbeys? I'm not sure it's a good idea to make a(nother) temple district there, but they should certainly be redestined if they're both abbeys. (Next to Delyn's.)

Quote:

-Triffith Sandril plaza is largely quite rich. Might be a nice place to move the guilds and such while splitting them out, if you still want this as an area for foreigners.

Sure, I suppose that works. It's fine by me at any rate. On a related note: could we maybe rename this place? There's another similarly named plaza right behind this one and both Triffith and Sandril are hardly great names.

Quote:

-As the decline of the Indoril would probably lead to a decline in their trade prospects and commercial activity, a nice theme would be for the merchants to often be finding it hard to get by, with trade moving to Narsis, etc.

That's true, but I wouldn't worry about such details too much yet. Not bad to keep in mind, though.

Quote:

-Move Taythionis Castle to the Indoril district or Sarethan Quarter. Actually, the House embassy and Taythionis castle could be swapped in position quite nicely, perhaps.

This would work. The embassy is a little outside of the walls, though, which would be a bit odd for its replacement. (Why is it a castle anyway? Sounds weird in the middle of a city.)

Quote:
-Make southern Indoril District (yellow in Ada's map) the region for the unemployed poor & criminal elements. Docks could also be added here for river traffic, along with warehouses, etc. The docks could easily be the worst hit with "the recession".

I don't think we have much room to add warehouses or docks. What I would suggest is adding a few piers, maybe even wooden ones or just a plain beach where individual, poor farmers can tie up their canoes to sell the goods of the day. Not really big docks. Nothing that would be affected by 'recession'.

What I thought of is that we could actually free up a lot of waterside space for this, if we just remove the big Taythionis castle and got rid of it somewhere else. (Or at least replace it with a smaller building.)


Quote:
-Make the Velothril Avenue district (not an avenue, needs a new name) the area for the working class, honest and hardworking, but not well-to-do. (Fits well with things like the labourer's hall here, etc.)

That was the idea, yeah.

Quote:

-Make the Triffith Sandril Plaza the foreigner's region (separate from Velothril, which would be for workers and richer. Possibly move the Fg & MG here.
-Manor district to house wealthy middle class.
-Sarethan Quarter for the rich and for temple things.
-Indoril district (now two cells only) for the Indoril's administrative, lawgiving element, etc, along with some rich houses, etc.

All acceptable, I think.

Quote:
I didn't place docks, because I found out that there was no decent place to add them. I didn't want to add docks at the MH related cells.

See my comment on docks higher up in this post.

Quote:

Haplo was also against the expansion of Almalexia, since it was already the biggest city of MW.

Everyone understands I would normally agree with that. My reason for suggesting that, however, was to make Almalexia a little more organic-looking on that side. It's just a little odd that right on the other side of the city is a farmer's field. In a huge and important city like this, you expect some continuity on the other side of the walls. Now we cannot represent the city at a realistic scale and we should, but I think the problem would already be solved with a little sign of (un)civilization on the water front there.

But this is not high on my list of priorities. I say we first see what we can do with the existing poor area.


Quote:
How would "the People's Fane" suit as a name for the Cathedral? I'm hesitant though, as I'm not sure whether this word is supposed to be reserved for the holiest of holies. If not, it would be nice to emphasize its role as a public and highly accessible place of worship.

BC is right. There should only be a couple of Fanes in all of the country? The idea of the name is right, though: it should be a public and accessible place of worship, funded and maintained by the House Indoril and the Almalexia establishment to provide a place of worship for the masses.



Quote:
How much crime should this place have? There must be some, but I don't think a huge underworld really fits, despite its size.

As BC said, not much crime at all. The emphasis should be on colorfulness and poverty.
Post Wed May 26, 2010 7:33 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

Triffith Sandil is the name of some important general or something in an in-game book. There was some discussion in the Internal Downloads Map 3 group map thread.
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Post Wed May 26, 2010 8:51 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Nomadic1
Developer Emeritus
15 May 2004

Location: Adelaide, Australia

For docks, why not just place them in the corners of the city where currently there is an awful lot of moat? Then there'd be no need to add an extra cell south of the Indoril district.
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Post Wed May 26, 2010 9:17 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
blackbird
Reviewer
01 Mar 2007

Location: Brugge (bruges), Flanders, Belgium

As I tried to say, I don't think it's possible to add a new dock within the city itself (unless you decide to remove the Taytionis castle). You could add one near the farming area, but then you're going to expand the city.
Post Wed May 26, 2010 9:24 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

We could of course have the city be square...
Post Wed May 26, 2010 9:26 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Haplo wrote:
Triffith Sandil is the name of some important general or something in an in-game book. There was some discussion in the Internal Downloads Map 3 group map thread.

Yeah, but as far as I know the "Sandril" part is not attested anywhere, so I suppose that was just made up. "Triffith" is from the Poison Song, an obviously fictional book that doesn't make any serious contribution to lore.

Really, it would still make more sense to name it Nerevar Plaza. Veloth gets a part of the city named after him, but the single most important hero of the House Indoril and of the Dunmer people at large doesn't even have a little plaque in the capital, where he was born and where his wife lives.


Quote:
As I tried to say, I don't think it's possible to add a new dock within the city itself (unless you decide to remove the Taytionis castle). You could add one near the farming area, but then you're going to expand the city.


[This] is a very crude 5-minute depiction of what I suggest. For this picture, I removed the Taythionis castle. With 'docks' I really don't mean anything more than this, just a small-scale place for small-scale people to hawk their goods. It doesn't require any expansion otherwise.
Post Wed May 26, 2010 10:17 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

Adanorcil wrote:

BC is right. There should only be a couple of Fanes in all of the country? The idea of the name is right, though: it should be a public and accessible place of worship, funded and maintained by the House Indoril and the Almalexia establishment to provide a place of worship for the masses.


House of Meanings
Post Wed May 26, 2010 11:21 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

Mother's Embrace.
Post Thu May 27, 2010 5:45 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Nomadic1
Developer Emeritus
15 May 2004

Location: Adelaide, Australia

Adanorcil wrote:
Haplo wrote:
Triffith Sandil is the name of some important general or something in an in-game book. There was some discussion in the Internal Downloads Map 3 group map thread.

Yeah, but as far as I know the "Sandril" part is not attested anywhere, so I suppose that was just made up. "Triffith" is from the Poison Song, an obviously fictional book that doesn't make any serious contribution to lore.

Really, it would still make more sense to name it Nerevar Plaza. Veloth gets a part of the city named after him, but the single most important hero of the House Indoril and of the Dunmer people at large doesn't even have a little plaque in the capital, where he was born and where his wife lives.

"Sandril" is a common typo on TR. Proper name is "Sandil", which is the family that's based on Gorne.

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Post Thu May 27, 2010 11:47 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bloodthirsty Crustacean
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2007

Location: Elsewhere

Whatever the case, Ada is right that it's not the greatest name, and that two named plazas right next to each other is a bit weird. For that reason I also dislike 'Nerevar Plaza'. Naming stuff can probably be left to Lud, who can run things past us as he comes to them.

On the subjects of names and Nerevars, though, there is one small tweak that does need making, Lud, which is that somewhere in Almalexia there's a dagger which purportedly belongs to 'Lady Nerevar somethingorother'. It makes no stylistic sense, and is just outright confusing, to have a random Nerevar flying about the place. If the Easter Egg really has to be kept, make it Lady Neht or whatever Daedric N is.

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Post Thu May 27, 2010 12:24 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

The easter egg doesn't have to be kept.
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Post Thu May 27, 2010 5:39 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Lud
Developer Emeritus
27 Aug 2004

Location: Ireland

Ok, the three buildings surrounding the Alma Rula's palace are the following:
-Olms monastery
-Felms monastery
-barracks

How about putting a shrine to Felms in the barracks, make it a local militia training station. (The militia as a devotional thing where volunteers help to keep the peace.)

How about using the Olms monastery (which has multiple indoril musical instruments) as a place for devotional musicians? Shrine to Vivec in his aspect as poet?

Then, I could make the Felms monastery into the Delyn school of law, as you suggested for the big monastery.

How about turning the existing big monastery (the one with the garden into a Llothis one? Fits nicely with Almalexia, where the Alma Rula is.

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Post Fri May 28, 2010 10:21 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Lud wrote:
Ok, the three buildings surrounding the Alma Rula's palace are the following:
-Olms monastery
-Felms monastery
-barracks

How about putting a shrine to Felms in the barracks, make it a local militia training station. (The militia as a devotional thing where volunteers help to keep the peace.)

How about using the Olms monastery (which has multiple indoril musical instruments) as a place for devotional musicians? Shrine to Vivec in his aspect as poet?

Then, I could make the Felms monastery into the Delyn school of law, as you suggested for the big monastery.

How about turning the existing big monastery (the one with the garden into a Llothis one? Fits nicely with Almalexia, where the Alma Rula is.

I'm ok with all these, except for the barracks. They strike me as a little out of place in an otherwise devotional and academic area.

Now that I'm thinking about it: does the area around the Alma Rula's palace strike anyone else as a bit cold? There's four big buildings reaching for the sky, with not so much as a tree to break the greyness. Also, the three surrounding buildings are awfully close to the Alma Rula's palace. I think we should liven the place up a bit: add some planters around the palace and space the other buildings out a little bit.

The problem is that there's not a whole lot of room to space them out in the first place. What I suggest is this. Since we have decent redestinations for two of the buildings around the palace, I say we simply remove the third (the one you proposed should be barracks). Also, we move that tiny isolated clothier to wherever it will fit better; that shouldn't give any problems for the interior. With that solved, we move Mr. Rula to a nice, waterfront location and move the two academies away from the water and space them out a bit more, with more greenery and clutter in between.

Quote:
The easter egg doesn't have to be kept.

What he said.

Quote:
Whatever the case, Ada is right that it's not the greatest name, and that two named plazas right next to each other is a bit weird. For that reason I also dislike 'Nerevar Plaza'. Naming stuff can probably be left to Lud, who can run things past us as he comes to them.

Yes, I certainly wouldn't just call it 'Nerevar plaza', and I think it would be better not to make it a plaza at all. Though I feel Nerevar should be honored somewhere -in a subdued manner-, at least.




Quote:
Mother's Embrace.

House of Meanings

Mother's Embrace is not really a name for a building, though. 'House of Meanings' sounds kind of cool, but I don't really see the relevance of it. Samir Al'Muhaada suggested 'The Basilica of Almalexia's Humble Masses' to me via PM. I think this one nails it pretty closely, but it's rather lengthy and I feel 'humble' does not glorify the common man enough, whereas 'masses' has an unfortunate negative connotation. The Basilica of the Mother's Embrace sounds like the closest shot now.
Post Fri May 28, 2010 11:38 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Lud
Developer Emeritus
27 Aug 2004

Location: Ireland

Cool, will do that for the area surrounding the Alma Rula's palace.
When I move the Guilds to Triffith Sandil Plaza, should I also be trying to keep the extrem openness of the plaza, do you think?

Also, the mageshop in Triffith keeps some monsters captive behind ghostfence type barriers. Can these be considered generic magic forcefields available to all or should these be nixed as non-lore ghostfences?

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Post Fri May 28, 2010 12:20 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Quote:
Cool, will do that for the area surrounding the Alma Rula's palace.

See what other people think, but I think it's pretty solid plan.

Quote:
When I move the Guilds to Triffith Sandil Plaza, should I also be trying to keep the extrem openness of the plaza, do you think?

I'd say see what's possible, but I don't think it'll hurt if the square shrinks somewhat.
Quote:


Also, the mageshop in Triffith keeps some monsters captive behind ghostfence type barriers. Can these be considered generic magic forcefields available to all or should these be nixed as non-lore ghostfences?

They'd be generic forcefields, but I think it would be better to replace them with something more mundane altogether. What are these creatures anyway?


EDIT: Fun fact: I estimate there are about 47 statues in Almalexia. 17 of those are Delyn and 10 Olms.


Last edited by Adanorcil on Fri May 28, 2010 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Fri May 28, 2010 12:47 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Lud
Developer Emeritus
27 Aug 2004

Location: Ireland

A liche, a storm atronach and a bonelord.
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Post Fri May 28, 2010 12:55 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Why
Lead Developer
04 Jul 2009

Location: Utrecht

Plans sound all cool to me.

Lud, once you get to the bread handouts, maybe it's a nice idea to base the reaction of the NPC on PC Clothing Modifier. If the player doesn't look too wealthy (<250, <500 or something), give bread once a day, if not, don't give bread. Values can be found in Greeting 8.

Edit: A liche, storm atronach and bonelord? Wow, that must be some serious mage shop. I'd say scale them down a little.

BC: Personally, I'd just scrap the whole idea. Sounds uber and cheesy to me.
Post Fri May 28, 2010 1:03 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
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