Morrowind Creatures

[Myzel]

As you may know, Dirnae is working on overhauling some of our Morrowind creatures, since many of them are just rubbish.

This thread is basically a focused concept group, but not as 'official'. You're allowed to post any Morrowind creature you can come up with. As for redesign, these are the creatures that were requested:

The swamp troll needs a redesign, since it is the creature that should give some coolness to the Argon Jungle and looks awful atm. BC basically came with the idea to make a completely original, cool and off the wall creation, with links to Morrowind's Grahl and the Oblivion troll, but entirely individual, and fitting in with the general aesthetics of Morrowind. His base idea was an eerie looking combination of a grahl, an oblivion troll and a tapir. The challenge is to not make it look ridiculous, but badass. I've begun on this concept myself, but I want to see what others can come up with as well.

Other creatures that could use a redesign are the vermai, the mud golem and perhaps the cephalopod.
Ideally, we would be able to make new creatures that fit Morrowind better than the things we have now. So we could also use concepts for new beasts that fit the Morrowind aesthetic, with it's reptilian and insectoid weirdness.

A few tweaks from BC for sense making.
A Myzel edit for additions.

[Schmart]

[url=http://img24.imageshack.us/i/swamptroll.jpg/][img]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9666/swamptroll.th.jpg[/img][/url]

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

A little too portly and 'gremlin'. A decent base, though.

My suggestions would be thus (and to try and keep this in the Morrowind aesthetic, I'm gonna mention Morrowind creatures this should look more like - at present this looks like it could be in any game): I'd de-fat it by adding a touch of 'daedroth' to the body and human elements. I'd then also increase the 'animal' levels (as opposed to the 'fairytale goblin' levels) by adding a touch of 'werewolf', or 'Oblivion troll'.

Currently it's a good concept, but lacks the Morrowind feel, and also the feel of an animal, rather than a goblin or some kind of fairytale villain. Very good, but I think if what I'm rambling about could be summarised in a few words, needs to look 'more real and more gritty'. Overall, more 'Morrowind'.

[RelinQ]

The drawing is a good start yes but I think it needs to be less bipedal looking.

Anyhow If I recollect, the vermai and the sea troll aren't to bad atm, compared to some of the other stuff anyway.
So If anything thing gets added to the animation fix list it'll be waiting ALONG time.

Also I believe the mud golem is already on the list, I think Worsas was in the progress of re/designing a few actaully, mainly sketches though.

[MMMowSkwoz]

Anyhow If I recollect, the vermai and the sea troll aren't to bad atm, compared to some of the other stuff anyway.

They really are quite bad. The Vermai's head disappears when you kill it.

I'd also like to say the quality of that piece of concept art is very good. Whilst suggestions have been made about improvements to the actual concept, the quality of drawing and the way you've laid it out are excellent. Keep up the good work.

I like the head a lot. To make it less humanoid, I'd suggest changing the hands to be more like animal claws. Is it supposed to be a tool using creature?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Anyhow If I recollect, the vermai and the sea troll aren't to bad atm

RelinQ, you are henceforth forbidden from any discussion of taste when it comes to creatures.

[Worsas]

Also I believe the mud golem is already on the list, I think Worsas was in the progress of re/designing a few actaully, mainly sketches though.

Yes, it's that I have had an idea of how the mud golem could be redesigned. I can do sketches of that, but those would only convey a rough idea.

I thought a mud golem could be done similar to an atronach in the way that the characteristics of the basing element are stressed more strongly.

This could mean a mud golem featuring a disproportionately large nape where stones or even plants are sticking out building a symbolical accordance to Nirn. I would also like a mud golem that can merge with the ground and thus is invisible from afar.

I agree that most of TR's creatures are qualitatively rather backwards. A lot needs to be done here.

[Adanorcil]

I hate to say this, but when I saw the concept for the swamp troll, I was immediately reminded of [url=http://www.silalb.com/Giochi/Pokemon/Pokedex/images/drowzee.gif]this[/url].

As for the sea troll and the mud golem, I strongly believe should be redesigned to be invisible and of infinitely small size.

[Worsas]

As for the sea troll and the mud golem, I strongly believe should be redesigned to be invisible and of infinitely small size.

That means they should go?

Edit: Ok, I've got it.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

I hate to say this, but when I saw the concept for the swamp troll, I was immediately reminded of [url=http://www.silalb.com/Giochi/Pokemon/Pokedex/images/drowzee.gif]this[/url].

Literally one of the ingredients I handed to Myzel in my original draft for this creature.

(But nevertheless also one of the reasons I'm not fully satisfied with this piece of art)

As for the sea troll and the mud golem, I strongly believe should be redesigned to be invisible and of infinitely small size.

Yes. I have a number of creatures on my hit-list. Unless someone in this thread comes up with a killer design for a sea troll, it really ought to be excised.

Also ought to go are the Daedric Bat (frankly no excuse to keep it - buggy, poorly implemented, lore-unfriendly, not a cool idea), 'Flying Nameless Thing' (ditto) and Vermai (the latter could be saved by an actually usable model). Possibly others I can't remember.

[Schmart]

I'd de-fat it by adding a touch of 'daedroth' to the body and human elements. I'd then also increase the 'animal' levels (as opposed to the 'fairytale goblin' levels) by adding a touch of 'werewolf', or 'Oblivion troll'.

New version according to input...
[url=http://img232.imageshack.us/i/swamptroll2.jpg/][img]http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/875/swamptroll2.th.jpg[/img][/url]

[Myzel]

That's more like it. Looks pretty good. Maybe more troll-like than my own concept, which I'm posting now.

[url=http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2413/trswamptroll1.jpg/][img]http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2413/trswamptroll1.th.jpg[/img][/url]

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Woah-ho-ho! Schmart, that is one very nice concept.

I think I would add a touch (but not too much) of Myzel's spikes, but in the form of hair and bristles to the back for that kind of wild 'boary' look, but otherwise, that's really ace.


Myze, I think you just got out-arted. Yours is good, and looks brilliant for something that's just snuck out of Argonia... but Schmart's looks just like I imagined -- but better!

My opinion there.

[Schmart]

Whop di do...
*does the approval from Bloodthirsty Crustacean dance*

[Myzel]

Well there you go. I'm glad this thread is proving to be fruitful. It's exactly what I'd hoped for when I started it. Hopefully, other artists will contribute as well. ^^

[MMMowSkwoz]

I like it [Schmart's troll]. The upper legs look a little odd though.

Also, is there any reason why we need to keep the name "swamp troll"? It's fairly terrible.



post moved to creatures thread to keep discussion in one place

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

I think the oddness just adds a touch of that Morrowind feel, if you ask me.

It also makes it look more like something that would actually be modelled for Morrowind - it's got that kind of 'blocky' angular-ness to it, but obviously without sacrificing quality or artistic direction.


Well, because it's a troll that lives exclusively in swamps? It's no worse than the ubiquitous fantasy 'cave troll' or 'mountain troll'. Or Morrowind's 'cave rat'.

I mean, it's not a bad name, but if you've got a better name, fire away.



One interesting thought, (and not necessarily one that would ever need to be modelled, unlike this troll that I want in-game rightnow ) would be to create a 'non-swamp' variant that lives in the Velothi Mountains in rare spots at the border with Cyrodiil. Just 'Troll', or 'Western Troll'.

[gro-Dhal]

Do we really need trolls in Morrowind? I'd rather see something more reptilian to fit with the established insect/fish/reptile fauna.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Well, we already had them, so this was just an improvement. (And this doesn't fit in with the Morrowind aesthetic, you think? To me this looks like it would happily sit alongside the Daedroth and Durzog as Bethesda creatures, whilst also having it's own crazy Morrowind take on stuff - it's a tapir, man!)

Also, do the flora and fauna of Tamriel really follow province borders so politely? And anyway, this thing isn't going to be roaming the Molag Amur or Red Mountain all of a sudden - he's a rare creature in the Argon Jungle.

It would be more weird for 'exlusively Morrowindic' insecty creatures to start showing up in the wild the nearer we got to the borders, rather than the further.


Obviously if you've got a suggestion for a new creature for anywhere, feel free to throw it on the pile, but there's no point in 'not doing' this guy just because he's not an insect.

[Wyndninja]

I don't know, i think Myzel's is pretty good.

[Sload]

Well, we already had them, so this was just an improvement. (And this doesn't fit in with the Morrowind aesthetic, you think? To me this looks like it would happily sit alongside the Daedroth and Durzog as Bethesda creatures, whilst also having it's own crazy Morrowind take on stuff - it's a tapir, man!)

I think, and I think roald gro-dahl thinks, thats things called trolls do not fit into Morrowind, however much this concept does.

Your crap about biodiversity aside, everything in Morrowind must feel like Morrowind. I thought we had gotten past imbecilic arguments built on this idea of our mod as an actual representation of reality.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

blahblahblahblahblah


P.S That can all like be totally ignored and I can be appropriately lambasted and wear a dunce's cap etc. if by "things called trolls do not fit into Morrowind, however much this concept does" you mean if we called it something else it would be alright with you.

[Haplo]

just don't call them trolls

[Sload]

thankyou haplo. i dont know how much clearer i could've been.

my previous post was mostly an expansion on roald gro-dahl's thoughts, and for that reason i didn't give my opinion on the concept. I prefer myzel's concept overall personally, though I also prefer some aspects of shmart's, such as the knuckle-walking quadrupedalism and the hind feet. i also do not think that argonea has many mammals, which only matters in that i do not think this should be described as being of there. i am fine with it appearing in the argon jungle, though I think it would be a misappropriation of our resources to design a creature specifically for a small uninteresting region in the very corner of our mod.

[Worsas]

I like both of the creatures drawn. Assuming dirnae models the one of Schmart. What would you say if I tried to model Myzels concept?

These both can be quite distinctive.

[Wyndninja]

for a small uninteresting region in the very corner of our mod.

Uninteresting! It's the border of the Black Marsh!

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Worsas, if you have time to do this (which would be excellent!) I'd prefer it if you tried Schmart's, seeing as I have no idea where Dirnae is and you have plenty of skill with creatures too. Obviously if he shows up you can like duel or something.

Anyway, sozzles for my misunderstanding. When stuff is called "my crap" and "imbecilic", and I'm mildly distracted I just get the feeling I need to be on the defensive. Sorry.


Also, for any concept artists reading, some more 'general' new creatures might be cool. As a jumping off point, the only thing that's ever grabbed my imagination is the [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/skelm.shtml]long-legged velk[/url] as a Deshaan dwelling plains-creature, perhaps. (Perhaps, Myze, your concept could be used as a very rough base?) Also that [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/gallery/mw_TAoM_p40.jpg]fat concept art Guar[/url] as perhaps a Velothi mountains guar relative used by Redorans.

Anyway, this would obviously all be hypothetical because we're basically relying on the charity of lovely people like Worsas and Dirnae, so don't lose any sleep over it.


EDIT: Linked fat guar.

[Sload]

long-legged velk should be bug-gazelles

[Worsas]

long-legged velk should be bug-gazelles

What if we defined priorities for possible new Morrowind-Creatures? This would leave some freedom if we said that none of these needed to be done but would be a welcome addition. A non-binding wishlist combined with a ranking.

I will most likely model a new creature for Morrowind. I'm sure it will come to that, although it might take some time until my capabilities in time allow it to happen.

This would be part of a learning process where I can get into working with actual bones. It's that I want to learn all of the different sections of Morrowind-specific modeling. This would be the next step.

Uninteresting! It's the border of the Black Marsh!

The argon jungle, similar to Solstheim, should be sort of a lookahead to a neighbour-province. Perhaps Solstheim is more Skyrim than the Argonian Jungle Blackmarsh is.

But still you must agree on the fact that Solstheim, being a tiny island (if seen next to Morrowind-mainland) was a immensive addition to the game and also showed how a rather small area can be subjectively large.

I think it would be a misappropriation of our resources...

Possibly. Sad though.

[Haplo]

I think it would be a misappropriation of our resources...

Possibly. Sad though.

Sad indeed, but we do need things like existing mesh fixes and a Dres set more than small-region-specific creatures we'll see only in an area the size of a claim or three.

[RelinQ]

I like the idea of insects, the look cool and they work well in the game. I came across these stamps from the U.S which show some very interesting insects.

(The pic is a high resoultion (so its big))
[url]http://www.usps.com/communications/news/stamps/2006/images/25/insectsandspiders_hr.jpg[/url]

But there are some cool things there:
Scorpion Fly
Spinybacked Spider
Velvet Ant

Also this supposed (prettiest Insect) Orchid Mantis:
[url]http://www.asiancemagazine.com/files/200906_ziya_orchhid.jpg[/url]
I think the idea of having a deceptive 'pretty insect' near the dres would be great. Sort of like betty netches in the way that they'd be harmless untill provoked.

Eitherway I would probably avoid any bettles or flying things though. Flying things are screwing in gameplay (like those shitty bats) and bettles have been done.

[Sload]

orchid mantis is beautiful

[cire992]

^ That mantis is the first bug I've ever seen that I would consider "pretty".

Just a little aside, though. I might suggest avoiding spiders when they aren't totally necessary.

[Peterboy]

That mantis... I want to pet it
Don't forget, that many of the Morrwind insects are quadrupeds! It would be good to have atleast some more of them

And please... no spiders... it's lame.

[Myzel]

Yes, new creatures. I see that I'm not alone to think that it would be worth investing time in this. In my opinion, very few of our Morrowind creatures actually feel like Morrowind creatures. There is little strangeness or uniqueness among them. That said, copying funny-looking real-world insects won't do either.

Also, this is the concept art forum, so please don't discourage or dismiss concepts based on arguments of time or resources. Even if concepts aren't modeled they can be used for inspiration if nothing else. Along with Lore, this is the brainstorming department.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

I agree with Worsas that a 'hypothetical wishlist' would be very helpful.

For me, the current top creature is that 'tapir beast' just because it 'replaces' an existing TR creature, rather than starts afresh, and because it is too damn cool to squander.

After that we'd have to see what, if anything, our concept artists come up with.

I'd say that the Bethesda fat guar (if anyone else likes that concept) would be a fitting #2, and the 'to-be-designed' velk a #3.

Regarding the velk, if anyone cares, I'd been thinking something that made the player think 'bird' when the first see it, 'cos it's a pet for rich Cyrodiils, so it ought to be somewhat elegant. With the name, a stork would be the obvious 'base' creature. And because it needs to be a unique creature, it would not be a bird or stork at all, but a nix-hound like insect/arthropod/reptile combo.

I also think it's worth pointing out that in terms of actual creatures, Morrowind (the game) has very few insects. There's the somewhat unplaceable Kwama and Nix-Hound, and the explicitly insectoid Shalk and Silt Strider (and Skyrender if you want to count the Redguard comic). "Somewhat unplaceable" is more what concept artists should be aiming for than flat-out insect rip offs, in my opinion.

And I also agree with Haplo that if it were a choice between a Dres architecture set and a creature, I'd go for Dres. But currently I don't think the former choice is on the table.

[Sload]

For me, the current top creature is that 'tapir beast' just because it 'replaces' an existing TR creature, rather than starts afresh, and because it is too damn cool to squander.

Please be honest, your reason is just that you like it. As you must be aware, unless you are fooling yourself as well, that it replaces a creature is irrelevant, because I think we've agreed that our creatures shouldn't be named "trolls," and with a different name and a different model, you have created a new creature, not fixed up a current one.

I find it exceedingly irritating that you seem to come to your opinion and then construct an argument to support it, rather than attempting to find the best answer.

The fat guar was a concept for the guar. The guar has been created, there is no fat guar. Under no circumstances should another guar be created because the guar exists as it exists. The guar we actually need is the tigerguar, which should be at the top of everyone's list.

What's needed is more of the sort of creatures Morrowind has. All Morrowind creatures are arthropods or reptiles, with the single exception of the rat. The reptiles tend to be bipedal and the arthropods far larger than could realistically exist on land. That's the motif we are working with.

A while ago Turelio drew up a sketch of Dunmer writing a nixmount, a relative of the nixhound that was larger, more armored, and ridable, with mandibles capable of combat. Whatever is thought of this idea, I think the idea of multiple "nix-" creatures that are generally similar to each other is engaging.

[Enzo]

What's needed is more of the sort of creatures Morrowind has. All Morrowind creatures are arthropods or reptiles, with the single exception of the rat. The reptiles tend to be bipedal and the arthropods far larger than could realistically exist on land. That's the motif we are working with.

I'm sure anyone could see where you're coming from there. It's true: vanilla Morrowind has a lot of lizard'n'bug type creatures.

Vanilla Morrowind is based on a post-volcanic island and the wild-life there reflects that, clearly. Really, Vvardenfell is a cold volcanic wasteland. Things that exist and are prevalent in Vvardenfell don't necessarily carry over to the mainland, however: the island is KNOWN for Silt Striders, for example, but as far as I know that is the only place you'll find a Silt Strider.

The Province of Morrowind, particularly the lower half that is NOT covered in TES3, is bordered on the south by marsh/swamp (Black Marsh, of course) and on the east by the temperate Valus Mountains. Considering that, I don't see why you are so convinced that mammals would not exist on the mainland. I should think we would see at least a couple species crop up as things got warmer, probably bipedal like we see in the Cyrodilic minotaurs that exist on the same latitudes not far east (indeed, something not unlike Myzel and Schmart's concepts would look at home to me).

Sticking with the backdrop that the vanilla game has given us when we imagine what lives to the south of Vvardenfell makes no sense to me. I can't imagine a Morrowind without guars and nix hounds, but I don't think "more of the same" as an absolute would offer realism when considering the surrounding provinces. Things ought to be more congruential.

[Night0205]

My opinion doesn't mean much, but Mainland morrowind is more normal then vvardenfell wouldn't you say? And wouldn't that make the creatures a little bit more normal as well? All I wish is for a spider, which I've wished before, but I realize that it's a huge task, and the original one didn't work...
But yeah, If you guys can, I would think adding a little bit of variety to the creature world would be a great task for you... that is if you can do it well... and as long as you keep your priorities...
One thing I really respect about this project is that you guys keep your focus on what needs to be done, and not necessarily on things that are not required. But then again, you have a lot of talent here that could be used in very creative ways... and I say if you can do both, do it!

[Sload]

The word that lost the argument:

realism