House Redoran, writeup and story proposal
Moderators: Haplo, Lead Developers
House Redoran
For discussion of the House Redoran and the attitude and character of its major members, as well as the general direction of its factionquest and its relations with the other Houses
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
I've been thinking about Redoran a bit, and one thing that I think has some potential is the rumours in OB about the Nords attacking the Redoran. In and of itself, this is not a particularly interesting aspect, but it does have possibilities.
What would make this Nord-Redoran conflict interesting is to shy away from the easy route, whereby the Nords are nasty barbarians that attack the Redorans for plunder and territory, etc.
What would be far more interesting would be to ensure that sizable and fairly obviously Nordic settlements exist in Redoran territory. This would allow us to explore the idea of the Redoran as somewhat of a colonial power. More importantly, dunmer culture could be seen from an interesting outsider's perspective of those Nords who live in Redoran-ruled areas. It would be interesting to look at self-determination in this way, where the rulers are benevolent, etc.
This will create a new viewpoint from which to see dunmer culture and will also allow for some nice dissonance between the idea of the Redoran as super-honorable warriors and as rulers. As it stands, the Redoran could do with a few more shades of grey, and this just might do the trick.
Thus, a theme that could be present throughout the Redoran quests would be this one about the Nords. A number of quests could also quite nicely explore the conflicts with the Nords across the border, hinting that some of the Nords would love to attack the Redoran. Thus, by the time Oblivion rolls around, it wouldn't be clear whether the Nord-Redoran war (which we would just foreshadow, of course) was an act of agression by the Nords, a rebellion by Nords who wanted self-determination who called in allies from their homeland or a mixture of the two. This would cloud this whole issue quite nicely, methinks.
Also, the Redoran enclave surrounded by Hlaalu lands has immense potential. Think about a bunch of super-proud redoran trying to avoid dealing with the Hlaalu as much as possible.
What would make this Nord-Redoran conflict interesting is to shy away from the easy route, whereby the Nords are nasty barbarians that attack the Redorans for plunder and territory, etc.
What would be far more interesting would be to ensure that sizable and fairly obviously Nordic settlements exist in Redoran territory. This would allow us to explore the idea of the Redoran as somewhat of a colonial power. More importantly, dunmer culture could be seen from an interesting outsider's perspective of those Nords who live in Redoran-ruled areas. It would be interesting to look at self-determination in this way, where the rulers are benevolent, etc.
This will create a new viewpoint from which to see dunmer culture and will also allow for some nice dissonance between the idea of the Redoran as super-honorable warriors and as rulers. As it stands, the Redoran could do with a few more shades of grey, and this just might do the trick.
Thus, a theme that could be present throughout the Redoran quests would be this one about the Nords. A number of quests could also quite nicely explore the conflicts with the Nords across the border, hinting that some of the Nords would love to attack the Redoran. Thus, by the time Oblivion rolls around, it wouldn't be clear whether the Nord-Redoran war (which we would just foreshadow, of course) was an act of agression by the Nords, a rebellion by Nords who wanted self-determination who called in allies from their homeland or a mixture of the two. This would cloud this whole issue quite nicely, methinks.
Also, the Redoran enclave surrounded by Hlaalu lands has immense potential. Think about a bunch of super-proud redoran trying to avoid dealing with the Hlaalu as much as possible.
"It’s all been such a mistake. We were once little shrew-like animals. That would be so much better."
-Ophelia Benson
-Ophelia Benson
from an earlier thread
Uld Vraech. Of the territories contested between Morrowind and Skyrim, this is the area that Skyrim has the best claim to. There exists within it several Nordic villages, and though the Redoran control it from Gargen Huul in the southern part, much of the Northern area might as well be Skyrim. Sure to be a cause of much contention. As to the name, it is clearly a Nordic name, Redoran might in passing call it something like Ald Huul, but its got the nordic name as a region to identify it with the Nords.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
House Redoran, writeup and story proposal
While Telvanni is currently in limbo, and ideas for (the foundations of) an Indoril storyline have been developed, the next complete House, Redoran, is sorely underdeveloped, and consensus about the current state of the House seems a bit lacking, too, so I decided to gather our current ideas, throw in some of my own, and whip up a storyline proposal for the Red Party. Most of this is just me, throwing ideas out there and seeing if they stick.
Disclaimer: I've made up some terms, such as War Council, which could probably be more inspired. Consider them placeholders.
Redoran Tradition
House Redoran has always done things differently than the other Houses. They put great emphasis on individuality and personal honor and glory. Because of this, House Redoran lacks a unified Council like the other Houses have. Instead, elders, hetmen (hetmans? hetmer?) and nobles lead local communities. When decisions of regional importance need to be made, these individuals come together. These meetings used to be initiated by an Elder or House Father who invited local respected Redoran. Over time some of these incidental gatherings gained some measure of permanence, and evolved into what are currently known as the Councils of Baan Malur, Kogotel and Kartur. These councils have no official leaders and still consist of nobles and representatives from near these cities. In gameplay terms, these are the House Fathers.
That does not mean House Redoran has nobody to lead them. Once every year, or whenever a threat to the House or the people of Morrowind presented itself, Redoran's greatest heroes and leaders would gather at Skar, the House's traditional meeting place in times of crisis. There they decide on a course of action and, if there is no current Archmaster, appoint one of their own as their leader. The Archmaster is appointed for life by the War Council and it is his responsibility to lead the Red Party to war. In gameplay terms, anyone who would show up at such a War Council is a Councilman. These days, Councilors are selected by their local councils to act as representatives, bar a few possible exceptions.
Recent History
When Vvardenfell was reopened in 3E414, Archmaster Bolvyn Venim, appointed during the Arnesian War, convinced the War Council to allow him to lead the House towards Red Mountain, believing it was Redoran's duty to be the first line of defense against the rising threat of Dagoth Ur. Skar rose from its long resting place in <location> and waded through the Inner Sea to Vvardenfell, where Venim had it settle down near Ald'ruhn, an old Redoran town in the shadow of the Ghostfence. Some of Redoran's House Fathers responded to Venim's call to action and followed him to the Vvardenfell territories where they claimed the surrounding land as their own. Because many of these nobles did not have any prior holdings on Vvardenfell, they took up residence within Skar. Together with Remas Movaryn, the Lord of Maar Gan who lived in Ald'ruhn prior to Venim's arrival, and Hlaren Ramoran, of Gnisis, who also moved to Skar, this group of noble mer formed the new Redoran Council of Ald'ruhn.
The move should be seen as of symbolical rather than practical significance. While it is still the official heart of Redoran decision-making, because of Skar's new role as the home of the Ald'ruhn Council, the distance between Ald'ruhn and the mainland, and a general lack of external threats to the people of Morrowind besides Dagoth Ur, no War Council meetings have taken place since Skar crossed the Inner Sea. The Councils of Baan Malur, Kogotel and Kartur continue to function as before.
Current Situation
While Dagoth Ur and the Sixth House are still a major threat, they work underground which makes them difficult to combat. Furthermore, the Temple has forbidden any expeditions inside the Ghostfence, seeking instead to contain Dagoth Ur. As a result of this, Venim is feeling more useless and frustrated by the day as his honor as Archmaster forces him to sit and wait in Ald'ruhn. Rather than letting them sit on their hands in the Ashlands awaiting clearance from the Temple, Venim has sent back his War Parties to their Clansteads.
Back in Velothis district, Redoran has fallen into a state of slight disorganization. Communication and coordination between the three local councils is slow. While the situation isn't dire enough to warrant an emergency meeting, without their annual War Council they haven't been able to come up with a unified answer to Hlaalu expansionism in the south, and efforts by the Kartur Council seem rather ineffective. Similarly, unrest is brewing in the Uld Vraech to the north, an area with a large population of native Nords who have long felt oppressed by the Dunmer. The Baan Malur council seems oblivious to the threat of an uprising despite Gargen Huul's repeated warnings.
Which leaves us at...
...where we are now. In terms of building a storyline, Redoran vs Hlaalu only has so much potential. Redoran and Hlaalu aren't enemies, Hlaalu is simply taking advantage of Redoran's weakness, as one expects they would. Besides, Hlaalu is already on track to collide head-on with Indoril over their differences, religious issues and Thirr trade. We can have some quests about the Hlaalu, but building a giant story arc around it is not a good idea.
The other option is the Uld Vraech. Now this I think has some amazing potential for Redoran's endgame. Obviously at this point the player would be familiar with the situation in the Uld Vraech as we'd have sent them there on a couple of quests. Imagine for a moment a Nord warlord (let's call him Hardolaf because that name is so ridiculous), returning to his native Uld Vraech after amassing a band of warriors in Skyrim, and rallying the local Nords to form an army to liberate their homeland from the Dunmer oppressors. Plausible and glorious. My idea was that, after running around and doing whatever quests a Redoran hireling does to work his way to membership of a local council (these could be complete standalone stories, like the Dreugh/EEC in Cormar, dealing with the Hlaalu near Ald Marak/Ald Iuval, harvesting swamp flowers, building your stronghold at Bal Isra, whatever) Hardolaf's army crosses Dunmeth Pass and moves to Strond, the local Nords start a revolt, Dunmer are chased out of Nordic villages, several Dunmeri villages are pillaged.
Eventually, Bolvyn Venim returns to Velothis, and either leads an expedition against Hardolaf and gets killed, goes to Hardolaf's camp with a few of his men (possibly the player as standard bearer) to demand the Nords retreat back to Skyrim expecting them to treat him honorably but gets his head put on a stake instead, or gets killed by Hardolaf as the Nords launch a surprise naval assault on the Baan Malur council. Either way, House Redoran is humiliated, and the War Council meets in the Arena of Baan Malur. After deliberation and quite possibly an honorable duel or two, the player is appointed as the new Archmaster, and the war against Hardolaf begins in earnest. At some point, Hardolaf moves south and a guerrilla war with a spectacular standoff in the Ash Swamp ensues, ending in a 1-on-1 battle that turns into player-vs-army when Hardolaf can't take the heat anymore to top it all off. The end.
How this would affect our current plans
[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=301890#301890]CURRENT ULD VRAECH VILLAGE PLANS[/url].
[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=20009]IMAGE VERSION COURTESY OF NEMON[/url].
Most of our existing plans can remain unchanged, apart from Shneif, which I think would work better as a predominantly Nordic village with Redoran guards. This will be the decor of the vast majority of the action in this questline. Hardolaf's place of operations will be Strond, and it should be very inhospitable to the player after the invasion has started. A player who has access to ridiculous items and skills will probably be able to walk in and kill anything, but there's no stopping that, and we can steer away from that with quests, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option. Several of the Dunmeri villages should be pillageable, and the Nordic villages will probably require some activateable fortifications for storytelling purposes.
Obviously, I'm assuming that we unify our Redoran with vanilla Redoran and that the player hasn't done the vanilla questline yet. I don't think this poses too much of a problem. Vanilla can remain largely unchanged with the exception of the player simply killing Venim to become Archmaster.
Ideally the eventual outcome of this questline is based on how honorable and Redoran the player acts when he has to take decisions in the war. As in, challenge Hardolaf to a duel to the death, but when he's losing and calls for the aid of his men, tell your men to stay back, so that you might end this honorless dog's life yourself.
Original IRC conversation
Copy-paste it into notepad. This post is long enough already. Also excuse the silliness. It's IRC.
<Why|testingoutside> okay, brainstorm time
<Why|testingoutside> because I feel like talking about Redoran
* U bent nu bekend als Why
<Why> so, what do you guys think about a potential Redoran storyline?
<Andres> Shall we have post-boss quests?
<Why> wheh, don't care for those right now
<Andres> Such as an option of moving the council back to Baan Malur or such?
<Nemon|tab> Post boss quests are nice
<Why> here's my idea
<Why> what we know of Redoran so far is that they have a bunch of different councils
<Nemon|tab> We should have ultra post boss quests
<Why> one in Ald'ruhn, one in Baan Malur, one in Kogotel, probably one in some other place, too
<Why> ULTRABOSS
<Why> anyway, I thought it'd be cool if we focus the player's progression through House Redoran on Kogotel rather than Baan Malur
<Aeven> to represent the decline?
<Why> (the ruling body of house redoran should be a yearly gathering of council representatives in the Baan Malur arena or something, by the way)
<Aeven> where decision is made by dueling?
<Why> potentially
<Nemon|tab> Should Baan Malur more represent the goal and kogotel more the hub?
<Nemon|tab> Hub of quests?
<Why> well, my idea is this, and it's a bit radical
<Why> I want a military campaign.
<Nemon|tab> Sry that was poor wording on my behalf
<Why> so my idea is, focus the player on Kogotel, of course have him visit the other redoran places at times
<Andres> Will we have some of the small herders villagers in the mountains be raped and pillaged by Nords somewhere during the storyline?
<Why> but player eventually becomes a councilman at Kogotel
<Why> then the unrest that has been brewing in the Northern Nord regions escalates
<Why> maybe some warlord from Skyrim attacks
<Nemon|tab> Oh hell yeah
<Why> and the player is sent to one of the more northwestern Redoran towns to fortify it, at some point
<Why> (after some other quests, sending the player places, spending time)
<Why> basically, the Redoran leadership in Baan Malur underestimates the strenght of the Nords
<Why> so they send their warriors to the more northwestern holdings, to secure those
<Why> as does the player, with a team from Kogotel
<Why> but it was all a diversion
<Nemon|tab> Pillaged villages in the north would be easy using activators and scripts
<Why> of course, after some pillaging of random unimportant redoran towns up north, the Warlord guy launches a naval assault
<Why> and invades Baan Malur
<Aeven> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd0WmZS-5OU
<Why> council there blows their steam-whistle council house thing
<Aeven> I think we should do an alternative 'House' of Nords
<Why> the watchtowers set off their smoke alarms, all Redoran is suddenly confronted with the severity of the situation
<Andres> Hah
<Aeven> with the Nords of Uld Vraech united by a warlord
<Why> so the player hurries back to Baan Malur, only to find the head of that council killed by a nordic raiding party that has taken over the council house and started slaughtering civilians
<Nemon|tab> Mance Ryder much?
<Why> only after the player liberates Baan Malur is he proclaimed high-general of the redoran forces (needs a better name)
<Why> and the war begins in earnest
<TF|> Shogun, lol jk
<Nemon|tab> A fight in baan malur would mean a lag fest
<Why> with a big standoff in the ash swamp
<Why> and a 1-on-1 battle with the Warlord
<Aeven> It could be represented with a switch of guards
<Andres> "Poor nose..." "Don' feel sorry for 'im! He'll be half-way up your ass before the night's through"
<Aeven> and battles in various important strongholds in the city
<Why> the idea is that their attack on Baan Malur would be more of a surgical strike
<Why> so they send an elite raiding party to off the council
<Why> player goes to council house, fights, finds council leaders dead
<Why> something along those lines, anyway
<TF|> I like this
<Aeven> I think some dead NPCs guards and Nord guards alive would work
<Aeven> to represent the occupation
<Aeven> a switcharoo
<Why> then a full-scale invasion, with a big battle in the Ash Swamp, ending with a fight against the warlord on an island in the middle of the river that runs through the swamp
<Cat> there. found some more errors
<Why> redoran honour etc
<Why> player is celebrated as saviour of the Redoran, becomes ULTRABOSS of the faction.
<Aeven> sounds so awesome
<Andres> With dialogue options that are less Redoran than the typical choices? ;P
<Nemon|tab> The ash swamp is fitted for fighting like that
<Aeven> Redoran may just be the best quest line ever
<Aeven> guerilla in the swamp
<Why> I want a big standoff
<Why> and redoran in full ornate war attire
<Andres> And Venym is just fapping off in Ald-Ruhn during the whole scenario
<Aeven> Why how do you feel about offering the player the choice to team up with the Nords
<Why> doable
<Cat> Why: for the fortify northern town thingy, could we have it built in stages while the player goes around organising things?
<Why> but not neccesary
<Cat> that would be ace
<Aeven> it would
<Why> could be, yes
<Aeven> wow this is awesome
<Andres> Without having to join Redoran in that case, right?
<Why> yeah
<Cat> I don't think siding with the nords should be available for a player that has joined Redoran
<Why> obv
<Aeven> obv yeah
<Andres> Could even be a possible scenario for each Great House, asking to weaken all the other houses with similar plots.
<Aeven> that'd be a bit much?
<Why> yeah, that's not completely neccesary
<Aeven> only Redoran has such a scenario
<Why> Indoril is going to collide head-on with Hlaalu anyway
<Why> Redoran is generally well-liked
<Why> so they don't have much trouble with the other houses
<Why> hence, invasion
<TF|> Indoril itself is also somewhat split
<Why> I like to see Indoril as a near-theocratical and more conservative version of American politics, tbh
<Why> they disagree a lot, which often leads to stagnation, but are united against external threats
<Why> the lore people will probably tear me a new one for saying that
<Why> but I like the analogy
<Why> 'Murica! 'Ndoril!
<Aeven> Why you should really write it down or something
<Why> yeah I will
<Why> except the indoril part. ;P
<TF|> I think that jives well with the indoril plan we have already
<TF|> or it could
<TF|> I mean, in a way it already does
<Aeven> we have an Indoril plan?
<TF|> yes we do
<TF|> you just don't know what they are
<Aeven> lemme guess, it's Core secret
<Why> SECRETS SECRETS SECRETS
<Why> seriously though I'll open it all up for internal discussion once it becomes relevant
<TF|> indeed
<Why> but we need a foundation to build on
<Why> and we've got some good ideas going
<Nemon|tab> Why, this would be very interesting for all future map 5 claims. I want to have those described and ready for claiming during this summer
<Aeven> I'm in love with this Redoran plan
<TF|> set things that we don't have to hammer out with 9001 morons proposing bad ideas
<Why> sure thing
<Aeven> it allows for purposebuilt settlements
<Nemon|tab> Yep
<Aeven> I think pillaged villages and fortified villages make sense
<Aeven> in a quest way
<Why> I'd like to start out having only rumours of Nordic unrest though
<Aeven> doesn't SHOTN have nice Nordic fortifications
<Why> there's an army gathering in Skyrim, but the Redoran's don't take it seriously
<Aeven> we could have those rumours in SE already
<Nemon|tab> Theres already some red/nord mix of settlements, meaning a nord uprise would leave some areas dangerous for the redorans
<Aeven> I think the idea of the Uld Vraech uniting is better
<Why> then once the player becomes important, the army actually moves through a pass, or possibly just over the mountains where there isn't a fortification
<Nemon|tab> Dunmet Pass!!!
<Why> good
<Nemon|tab> Brb later
<TF|> you know
<TF|> I'm torn
<Andres> The Three Dunmet!
<Nemon|tab> Bbq now
<Aeven> have fun
<TF|> whether this should be a homegrown effort in Uld Vraech to break from morrowind
<Why> enjoy
<TF|> or whether this should originate in skyrim
<Why> why not both?
<Andres> Btw, we still need that silly arc about that nord guy.
<Aeven> perhaps a Vraechi warlord unites them and gains Skyrim support
<Why> Warlord is an Uld Vraechian who was abused in his youth and traveled to Skyrim to learn the Voice
* Nemon (Nemon@ChatSpike-e5282e9b.tmi.telenormobil.no) is binnengekomen bij #tamriel
* ChanServ geeft kanaal-operator status aan Nemon
<TF|> I dunno, I feel like if we did that we would want to talk with SHotN a bit
<Andres> With his crazy desire to avenge himself.
<Nemon> PhoNemon
<Why> then returns home with a small army, and unites the Uld Vraech against the Reds
<TF|> seeing as it would help to have facilitation on their part
<Andres> Do we really have to include the Voice?
<Why> no
<Aeven> nah
<TF|> lets not include the voice
<Why> but I want to script a guy breathing fireballs at the player
<Why> ;P
<Why> we don't have to do it though
<Andres> Who else would teach it but the Greybeards, and they would probably refuse to teach someone mentally unstable.
<Why> ahem ulfric
<TF|> he wasn't unstable
<Why> but I agree
<TF|> or I dunno
<Andres> Was not traumatized, just loyal.
<TF|> I like the idea that he travelled to skyrim to learn the voice, but didn't
<TF|> lol
<Aeven> haha
<TF|> might claim he did
<Why> it's a shame Skyrim already did that, a war leader with the voice, it'd be a nice allusion to the old Nord vs Dunmer legends
<Cat> the only shout he knows is "bamboozle other"
<Cat> ;P
<Why> when did Thoom become Dragonspeak, by the way?
<Aeven> Skyrim
<Why> I think I remember it just being shouting people's faces off in Morrowind legends
<Why> I'd totally love to ignore Skyrim and go with that approach. ;P
<Aeven> but what kind of direction would the Nord version go with?
<Aeven> player leading raiding parties at first?
<Why> though Morrowind doesn't have a physics engine to throw the player around like an idiot
<Cat> the thing that annoyed me about the greybeards in Skyrim is that they could totally talk fine if they just spoke english
<Cat> like the other ones besides arngeir tried to keep silent and then the building shook if they ever said anything
<Aeven> and what motive is there for the player to help the Nords
<Cat> surely speaking in english wouldn't have that effect
<Why> what motive is there for an argonian to join House Telvanni
<Aeven> true
<Why> TES has never been about motives much
<Why> not for the player, at least
<Andres> Hah
<Cat> A nordic player might view it like the argentinians view the falklands
Disclaimer: I've made up some terms, such as War Council, which could probably be more inspired. Consider them placeholders.
Redoran Tradition
House Redoran has always done things differently than the other Houses. They put great emphasis on individuality and personal honor and glory. Because of this, House Redoran lacks a unified Council like the other Houses have. Instead, elders, hetmen (hetmans? hetmer?) and nobles lead local communities. When decisions of regional importance need to be made, these individuals come together. These meetings used to be initiated by an Elder or House Father who invited local respected Redoran. Over time some of these incidental gatherings gained some measure of permanence, and evolved into what are currently known as the Councils of Baan Malur, Kogotel and Kartur. These councils have no official leaders and still consist of nobles and representatives from near these cities. In gameplay terms, these are the House Fathers.
That does not mean House Redoran has nobody to lead them. Once every year, or whenever a threat to the House or the people of Morrowind presented itself, Redoran's greatest heroes and leaders would gather at Skar, the House's traditional meeting place in times of crisis. There they decide on a course of action and, if there is no current Archmaster, appoint one of their own as their leader. The Archmaster is appointed for life by the War Council and it is his responsibility to lead the Red Party to war. In gameplay terms, anyone who would show up at such a War Council is a Councilman. These days, Councilors are selected by their local councils to act as representatives, bar a few possible exceptions.
Recent History
When Vvardenfell was reopened in 3E414, Archmaster Bolvyn Venim, appointed during the Arnesian War, convinced the War Council to allow him to lead the House towards Red Mountain, believing it was Redoran's duty to be the first line of defense against the rising threat of Dagoth Ur. Skar rose from its long resting place in <location> and waded through the Inner Sea to Vvardenfell, where Venim had it settle down near Ald'ruhn, an old Redoran town in the shadow of the Ghostfence. Some of Redoran's House Fathers responded to Venim's call to action and followed him to the Vvardenfell territories where they claimed the surrounding land as their own. Because many of these nobles did not have any prior holdings on Vvardenfell, they took up residence within Skar. Together with Remas Movaryn, the Lord of Maar Gan who lived in Ald'ruhn prior to Venim's arrival, and Hlaren Ramoran, of Gnisis, who also moved to Skar, this group of noble mer formed the new Redoran Council of Ald'ruhn.
The move should be seen as of symbolical rather than practical significance. While it is still the official heart of Redoran decision-making, because of Skar's new role as the home of the Ald'ruhn Council, the distance between Ald'ruhn and the mainland, and a general lack of external threats to the people of Morrowind besides Dagoth Ur, no War Council meetings have taken place since Skar crossed the Inner Sea. The Councils of Baan Malur, Kogotel and Kartur continue to function as before.
Current Situation
While Dagoth Ur and the Sixth House are still a major threat, they work underground which makes them difficult to combat. Furthermore, the Temple has forbidden any expeditions inside the Ghostfence, seeking instead to contain Dagoth Ur. As a result of this, Venim is feeling more useless and frustrated by the day as his honor as Archmaster forces him to sit and wait in Ald'ruhn. Rather than letting them sit on their hands in the Ashlands awaiting clearance from the Temple, Venim has sent back his War Parties to their Clansteads.
Back in Velothis district, Redoran has fallen into a state of slight disorganization. Communication and coordination between the three local councils is slow. While the situation isn't dire enough to warrant an emergency meeting, without their annual War Council they haven't been able to come up with a unified answer to Hlaalu expansionism in the south, and efforts by the Kartur Council seem rather ineffective. Similarly, unrest is brewing in the Uld Vraech to the north, an area with a large population of native Nords who have long felt oppressed by the Dunmer. The Baan Malur council seems oblivious to the threat of an uprising despite Gargen Huul's repeated warnings.
Which leaves us at...
...where we are now. In terms of building a storyline, Redoran vs Hlaalu only has so much potential. Redoran and Hlaalu aren't enemies, Hlaalu is simply taking advantage of Redoran's weakness, as one expects they would. Besides, Hlaalu is already on track to collide head-on with Indoril over their differences, religious issues and Thirr trade. We can have some quests about the Hlaalu, but building a giant story arc around it is not a good idea.
The other option is the Uld Vraech. Now this I think has some amazing potential for Redoran's endgame. Obviously at this point the player would be familiar with the situation in the Uld Vraech as we'd have sent them there on a couple of quests. Imagine for a moment a Nord warlord (let's call him Hardolaf because that name is so ridiculous), returning to his native Uld Vraech after amassing a band of warriors in Skyrim, and rallying the local Nords to form an army to liberate their homeland from the Dunmer oppressors. Plausible and glorious. My idea was that, after running around and doing whatever quests a Redoran hireling does to work his way to membership of a local council (these could be complete standalone stories, like the Dreugh/EEC in Cormar, dealing with the Hlaalu near Ald Marak/Ald Iuval, harvesting swamp flowers, building your stronghold at Bal Isra, whatever) Hardolaf's army crosses Dunmeth Pass and moves to Strond, the local Nords start a revolt, Dunmer are chased out of Nordic villages, several Dunmeri villages are pillaged.
Eventually, Bolvyn Venim returns to Velothis, and either leads an expedition against Hardolaf and gets killed, goes to Hardolaf's camp with a few of his men (possibly the player as standard bearer) to demand the Nords retreat back to Skyrim expecting them to treat him honorably but gets his head put on a stake instead, or gets killed by Hardolaf as the Nords launch a surprise naval assault on the Baan Malur council. Either way, House Redoran is humiliated, and the War Council meets in the Arena of Baan Malur. After deliberation and quite possibly an honorable duel or two, the player is appointed as the new Archmaster, and the war against Hardolaf begins in earnest. At some point, Hardolaf moves south and a guerrilla war with a spectacular standoff in the Ash Swamp ensues, ending in a 1-on-1 battle that turns into player-vs-army when Hardolaf can't take the heat anymore to top it all off. The end.
How this would affect our current plans
[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=301890#301890]CURRENT ULD VRAECH VILLAGE PLANS[/url].
[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=20009]IMAGE VERSION COURTESY OF NEMON[/url].
Most of our existing plans can remain unchanged, apart from Shneif, which I think would work better as a predominantly Nordic village with Redoran guards. This will be the decor of the vast majority of the action in this questline. Hardolaf's place of operations will be Strond, and it should be very inhospitable to the player after the invasion has started. A player who has access to ridiculous items and skills will probably be able to walk in and kill anything, but there's no stopping that, and we can steer away from that with quests, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option. Several of the Dunmeri villages should be pillageable, and the Nordic villages will probably require some activateable fortifications for storytelling purposes.
Obviously, I'm assuming that we unify our Redoran with vanilla Redoran and that the player hasn't done the vanilla questline yet. I don't think this poses too much of a problem. Vanilla can remain largely unchanged with the exception of the player simply killing Venim to become Archmaster.
Ideally the eventual outcome of this questline is based on how honorable and Redoran the player acts when he has to take decisions in the war. As in, challenge Hardolaf to a duel to the death, but when he's losing and calls for the aid of his men, tell your men to stay back, so that you might end this honorless dog's life yourself.
Original IRC conversation
Copy-paste it into notepad. This post is long enough already. Also excuse the silliness. It's IRC.
<Why|testingoutside> okay, brainstorm time
<Why|testingoutside> because I feel like talking about Redoran
* U bent nu bekend als Why
<Why> so, what do you guys think about a potential Redoran storyline?
<Andres> Shall we have post-boss quests?
<Why> wheh, don't care for those right now
<Andres> Such as an option of moving the council back to Baan Malur or such?
<Nemon|tab> Post boss quests are nice
<Why> here's my idea
<Why> what we know of Redoran so far is that they have a bunch of different councils
<Nemon|tab> We should have ultra post boss quests
<Why> one in Ald'ruhn, one in Baan Malur, one in Kogotel, probably one in some other place, too
<Why> ULTRABOSS
<Why> anyway, I thought it'd be cool if we focus the player's progression through House Redoran on Kogotel rather than Baan Malur
<Aeven> to represent the decline?
<Why> (the ruling body of house redoran should be a yearly gathering of council representatives in the Baan Malur arena or something, by the way)
<Aeven> where decision is made by dueling?
<Why> potentially
<Nemon|tab> Should Baan Malur more represent the goal and kogotel more the hub?
<Nemon|tab> Hub of quests?
<Why> well, my idea is this, and it's a bit radical
<Why> I want a military campaign.
<Nemon|tab> Sry that was poor wording on my behalf
<Why> so my idea is, focus the player on Kogotel, of course have him visit the other redoran places at times
<Andres> Will we have some of the small herders villagers in the mountains be raped and pillaged by Nords somewhere during the storyline?
<Why> but player eventually becomes a councilman at Kogotel
<Why> then the unrest that has been brewing in the Northern Nord regions escalates
<Why> maybe some warlord from Skyrim attacks
<Nemon|tab> Oh hell yeah
<Why> and the player is sent to one of the more northwestern Redoran towns to fortify it, at some point
<Why> (after some other quests, sending the player places, spending time)
<Why> basically, the Redoran leadership in Baan Malur underestimates the strenght of the Nords
<Why> so they send their warriors to the more northwestern holdings, to secure those
<Why> as does the player, with a team from Kogotel
<Why> but it was all a diversion
<Nemon|tab> Pillaged villages in the north would be easy using activators and scripts
<Why> of course, after some pillaging of random unimportant redoran towns up north, the Warlord guy launches a naval assault
<Why> and invades Baan Malur
<Aeven> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd0WmZS-5OU
<Why> council there blows their steam-whistle council house thing
<Aeven> I think we should do an alternative 'House' of Nords
<Why> the watchtowers set off their smoke alarms, all Redoran is suddenly confronted with the severity of the situation
<Andres> Hah
<Aeven> with the Nords of Uld Vraech united by a warlord
<Why> so the player hurries back to Baan Malur, only to find the head of that council killed by a nordic raiding party that has taken over the council house and started slaughtering civilians
<Nemon|tab> Mance Ryder much?
<Why> only after the player liberates Baan Malur is he proclaimed high-general of the redoran forces (needs a better name)
<Why> and the war begins in earnest
<TF|> Shogun, lol jk
<Nemon|tab> A fight in baan malur would mean a lag fest
<Why> with a big standoff in the ash swamp
<Why> and a 1-on-1 battle with the Warlord
<Aeven> It could be represented with a switch of guards
<Andres> "Poor nose..." "Don' feel sorry for 'im! He'll be half-way up your ass before the night's through"
<Aeven> and battles in various important strongholds in the city
<Why> the idea is that their attack on Baan Malur would be more of a surgical strike
<Why> so they send an elite raiding party to off the council
<Why> player goes to council house, fights, finds council leaders dead
<Why> something along those lines, anyway
<TF|> I like this
<Aeven> I think some dead NPCs guards and Nord guards alive would work
<Aeven> to represent the occupation
<Aeven> a switcharoo
<Why> then a full-scale invasion, with a big battle in the Ash Swamp, ending with a fight against the warlord on an island in the middle of the river that runs through the swamp
<Cat> there. found some more errors
<Why> redoran honour etc
<Why> player is celebrated as saviour of the Redoran, becomes ULTRABOSS of the faction.
<Aeven> sounds so awesome
<Andres> With dialogue options that are less Redoran than the typical choices? ;P
<Nemon|tab> The ash swamp is fitted for fighting like that
<Aeven> Redoran may just be the best quest line ever
<Aeven> guerilla in the swamp
<Why> I want a big standoff
<Why> and redoran in full ornate war attire
<Andres> And Venym is just fapping off in Ald-Ruhn during the whole scenario
<Aeven> Why how do you feel about offering the player the choice to team up with the Nords
<Why> doable
<Cat> Why: for the fortify northern town thingy, could we have it built in stages while the player goes around organising things?
<Why> but not neccesary
<Cat> that would be ace
<Aeven> it would
<Why> could be, yes
<Aeven> wow this is awesome
<Andres> Without having to join Redoran in that case, right?
<Why> yeah
<Cat> I don't think siding with the nords should be available for a player that has joined Redoran
<Why> obv
<Aeven> obv yeah
<Andres> Could even be a possible scenario for each Great House, asking to weaken all the other houses with similar plots.
<Aeven> that'd be a bit much?
<Why> yeah, that's not completely neccesary
<Aeven> only Redoran has such a scenario
<Why> Indoril is going to collide head-on with Hlaalu anyway
<Why> Redoran is generally well-liked
<Why> so they don't have much trouble with the other houses
<Why> hence, invasion
<TF|> Indoril itself is also somewhat split
<Why> I like to see Indoril as a near-theocratical and more conservative version of American politics, tbh
<Why> they disagree a lot, which often leads to stagnation, but are united against external threats
<Why> the lore people will probably tear me a new one for saying that
<Why> but I like the analogy
<Why> 'Murica! 'Ndoril!
<Aeven> Why you should really write it down or something
<Why> yeah I will
<Why> except the indoril part. ;P
<TF|> I think that jives well with the indoril plan we have already
<TF|> or it could
<TF|> I mean, in a way it already does
<Aeven> we have an Indoril plan?
<TF|> yes we do
<TF|> you just don't know what they are
<Aeven> lemme guess, it's Core secret
<Why> SECRETS SECRETS SECRETS
<Why> seriously though I'll open it all up for internal discussion once it becomes relevant
<TF|> indeed
<Why> but we need a foundation to build on
<Why> and we've got some good ideas going
<Nemon|tab> Why, this would be very interesting for all future map 5 claims. I want to have those described and ready for claiming during this summer
<Aeven> I'm in love with this Redoran plan
<TF|> set things that we don't have to hammer out with 9001 morons proposing bad ideas
<Why> sure thing
<Aeven> it allows for purposebuilt settlements
<Nemon|tab> Yep
<Aeven> I think pillaged villages and fortified villages make sense
<Aeven> in a quest way
<Why> I'd like to start out having only rumours of Nordic unrest though
<Aeven> doesn't SHOTN have nice Nordic fortifications
<Why> there's an army gathering in Skyrim, but the Redoran's don't take it seriously
<Aeven> we could have those rumours in SE already
<Nemon|tab> Theres already some red/nord mix of settlements, meaning a nord uprise would leave some areas dangerous for the redorans
<Aeven> I think the idea of the Uld Vraech uniting is better
<Why> then once the player becomes important, the army actually moves through a pass, or possibly just over the mountains where there isn't a fortification
<Nemon|tab> Dunmet Pass!!!
<Why> good
<Nemon|tab> Brb later
<TF|> you know
<TF|> I'm torn
<Andres> The Three Dunmet!
<Nemon|tab> Bbq now
<Aeven> have fun
<TF|> whether this should be a homegrown effort in Uld Vraech to break from morrowind
<Why> enjoy
<TF|> or whether this should originate in skyrim
<Why> why not both?
<Andres> Btw, we still need that silly arc about that nord guy.
<Aeven> perhaps a Vraechi warlord unites them and gains Skyrim support
<Why> Warlord is an Uld Vraechian who was abused in his youth and traveled to Skyrim to learn the Voice
* Nemon (Nemon@ChatSpike-e5282e9b.tmi.telenormobil.no) is binnengekomen bij #tamriel
* ChanServ geeft kanaal-operator status aan Nemon
<TF|> I dunno, I feel like if we did that we would want to talk with SHotN a bit
<Andres> With his crazy desire to avenge himself.
<Nemon> PhoNemon
<Why> then returns home with a small army, and unites the Uld Vraech against the Reds
<TF|> seeing as it would help to have facilitation on their part
<Andres> Do we really have to include the Voice?
<Why> no
<Aeven> nah
<TF|> lets not include the voice
<Why> but I want to script a guy breathing fireballs at the player
<Why> ;P
<Why> we don't have to do it though
<Andres> Who else would teach it but the Greybeards, and they would probably refuse to teach someone mentally unstable.
<Why> ahem ulfric
<TF|> he wasn't unstable
<Why> but I agree
<TF|> or I dunno
<Andres> Was not traumatized, just loyal.
<TF|> I like the idea that he travelled to skyrim to learn the voice, but didn't
<TF|> lol
<Aeven> haha
<TF|> might claim he did
<Why> it's a shame Skyrim already did that, a war leader with the voice, it'd be a nice allusion to the old Nord vs Dunmer legends
<Cat> the only shout he knows is "bamboozle other"
<Cat> ;P
<Why> when did Thoom become Dragonspeak, by the way?
<Aeven> Skyrim
<Why> I think I remember it just being shouting people's faces off in Morrowind legends
<Why> I'd totally love to ignore Skyrim and go with that approach. ;P
<Aeven> but what kind of direction would the Nord version go with?
<Aeven> player leading raiding parties at first?
<Why> though Morrowind doesn't have a physics engine to throw the player around like an idiot
<Cat> the thing that annoyed me about the greybeards in Skyrim is that they could totally talk fine if they just spoke english
<Cat> like the other ones besides arngeir tried to keep silent and then the building shook if they ever said anything
<Aeven> and what motive is there for the player to help the Nords
<Cat> surely speaking in english wouldn't have that effect
<Why> what motive is there for an argonian to join House Telvanni
<Aeven> true
<Why> TES has never been about motives much
<Why> not for the player, at least
<Andres> Hah
<Cat> A nordic player might view it like the argentinians view the falklands
Note that from Dunmeth Pass to Strond, Hardolaf and his men will have to travel through an unknown passageway through the Velothi mountains, possibly opening a well hidden ancient gate. As this passage is hidden, it's difficult to access Strond any other way, as it is well fortified on the cliffs and naval access is hard to manage with the treacherous waters hiding spiky rocks. Many brave fishermen met their end outside these waters (this should be reflected in the weather situation).
The Redoran village currently named TBA will be sacked hardest by the nord rebellion. While Shneif (Why-proposed Nordic with Red guards) will be sort of "liberated", Redoran Mandul between them also pillaged and the Redoran outpost of Mealkar totally burnt to the ground, leaving only a few stone houses standing. Nordic Kalstet and Frakhelm to be fortified alongside earlier mentioned Strond.
Gargon Huul's got a strategic defensive option with the bridges they easily can close after the rebellion - placing guards and barricades by scripts. I suggest not having the rebellion reach further south, except perhaps a few spies and berserkers here and there for funzies.
The Redoran village currently named TBA will be sacked hardest by the nord rebellion. While Shneif (Why-proposed Nordic with Red guards) will be sort of "liberated", Redoran Mandul between them also pillaged and the Redoran outpost of Mealkar totally burnt to the ground, leaving only a few stone houses standing. Nordic Kalstet and Frakhelm to be fortified alongside earlier mentioned Strond.
Gargon Huul's got a strategic defensive option with the bridges they easily can close after the rebellion - placing guards and barricades by scripts. I suggest not having the rebellion reach further south, except perhaps a few spies and berserkers here and there for funzies.
SIGILLVM COMMVNITATIS DE CIVITATE BERGENSI
Me like. A few things:
I think this is a golden opportunity to decide whether we will call it Dunmeth Path (Bethesda's name) or Dunmereth Path (current TR name). Go!
I think when the player "hurries back to Baan Malur to save Venym", it would be very nice if we could have some water strider-type thing (obviously not a water strider, since that's Telvanni), or a moving boat akin to that Galleon mod. Something that travels in real time, probably about as fast as a player with 100 speed can run, but with multiple people, so that the player can be given the pretense of "planning to save the city" ie basically telling the few people going with him that they should attack at X and Y and Z point, and rendezvous at Q location at T hours after the operation begins.
I'm concerned with Aeven focusing on the Nord side of things so suddenly. To try and flesh out the Nord side of things from a player standpoint is like trying to worry about dessert when we haven't even ordered dinner, and we don't even know if we'll be eating dessert at this restaurant or at home.
I think this is a golden opportunity to decide whether we will call it Dunmeth Path (Bethesda's name) or Dunmereth Path (current TR name). Go!
I think when the player "hurries back to Baan Malur to save Venym", it would be very nice if we could have some water strider-type thing (obviously not a water strider, since that's Telvanni), or a moving boat akin to that Galleon mod. Something that travels in real time, probably about as fast as a player with 100 speed can run, but with multiple people, so that the player can be given the pretense of "planning to save the city" ie basically telling the few people going with him that they should attack at X and Y and Z point, and rendezvous at Q location at T hours after the operation begins.
I'm concerned with Aeven focusing on the Nord side of things so suddenly. To try and flesh out the Nord side of things from a player standpoint is like trying to worry about dessert when we haven't even ordered dinner, and we don't even know if we'll be eating dessert at this restaurant or at home.
Forum Administrator & Data Files Manager
[06/19/2012 04:15AM] +Cat table stabbing is apparently a really popular sport in morrowind
[August 29, 2014 04:05PM] <+Katze> I am writing an IRC bot! :O
[August 29, 2014 04:25PM] *** Katze has quit IRC: Z-Lined
[06/19/2012 04:15AM] +Cat table stabbing is apparently a really popular sport in morrowind
[August 29, 2014 04:05PM] <+Katze> I am writing an IRC bot! :O
[August 29, 2014 04:25PM] *** Katze has quit IRC: Z-Lined
I read this through and since I can't be bothered to write a coherent post, I will post my comments on IRC, which I was using as a notepad at the time. With a little bit of searching you can probably find the passage I'm referring to. I sometimes pasted in a quote from Why's original text too.
Comments
[22:44] <@Adanorcil> reading
[22:45] <@Adanorcil> I'ma use this as notepad
[22:47] <@Adanorcil> 2) unless this comes up later, an unrelated note: the Redoran should use a lot of family terminology, i.e. the actual application of the term "House"
[22:47] <@Adanorcil> they have house fathers, brothers, cousins etc.
[22:48] <@Adanorcil> 3) hetmen totally need to be mentioned more
[22:48] <@Adanorcil> Just got to the part where Why did the House Father thing - Adanorcil approves
[22:51] <@Adanorcil> like his procedure for the archmaster (who now requires a better name)
[22:52] <arvisrend> that's his rank in vanilla
[22:52] <@Adanorcil> yeah, just saying
[22:53] <@Adanorcil> this is very fitting for the redoran: they are slightly disparate people who can rise in rank and reputation through great deeds and judicial rule, but when necessary, they will rally together under the flag of a warleader to be Morrowind's unstoppable army
[22:53] <@Adanorcil> the current huge threat of course being Red Mountain
[22:54] <@Adanorcil> this is naturally why Venim moved the main council to Vvardenfell
[22:56] <@Adanorcil> 4) people still misunderstand the "opening" of Vvardenfell in 414
[22:56] <@Adanorcil> it didn't mean no one could go there before, just that Imperials couldn't do trade there or start towns
[22:57] <@Adanorcil> "a few Great House settlements sanctioned by the Temple" (i.e. the Dunmer towns in the game) were always there
[22:57] <@Adanorcil> but that's an aside
[22:59] <@Adanorcil> also, I'm still a little divided on Skar actually moving - I kind of like it for its awesomeness, but also kind of not because it feels like Skar moving shouldn't be something remotely easy and even doing it just once more sullies the tragic desperation of Skar's last stand when the House was finally destroyed in the Oblivion crisis.
[23:00] <@Adanorcil> "the Temple has forbidden any expeditions inside the Ghostfence" - I'm not sure that's technically true, because the Armigers periodically explore the mountain, though those aren't (necessarily) Redoran, so the point more or less stands
[23:01] <arvisrend> aren't the Armigers Temple?
[23:02] <@Adanorcil> kinda, kinda not
[23:02] <@Adanorcil> not in the way Ordinators are temple
[23:02] <Notling|> They're more or less Vivec's sex toys
[23:02] <Notling|> Or so I thought
[23:02] <arvisrend> noone should be Temple the way ordinators are Temple
[23:02] <@Adanorcil> The Armigers are more rag-tag heroes that could be considered Temple by association with Vivec, but they fit the Redoran profile very well otherwise.
[23:03] <@Adanorcil> "We can have some quests about the Hlaalu, but building a giant story arc around it is not a good idea. " -> I strongly agree. The fall from glory is an idea for the Indoril. We can have a border struggle or two (as the vanilla Great Houses did), but I wouldn't make it the big thing.
[23:07] <@Adanorcil> "War Council meets in the Arena of Baan Malur" - we just built a big and rather sweet looking unique council building, so I assume it would make more sense to use that
[23:11] <@Adanorcil> I agree with Haplo on suddenly focussing on Nords
[23:11] <@Adanorcil> they can have a role in it, but it grates me quite a bit to give them center stage
Dunmeth/Dunmereth - the pros and cons:
Here's the arguments for an against:
- Dunmeth is now on a "canon" Skyrim map, but apart from that it is only mentioned in one semi-in-character from the Morrowind development era. It may well have been a typo there. At any rate, either that typo lived on, the Skyrim developers based the name on that one obscure text, or they made the same typo twice, which seems unlikely. There's also the option that they actually preferred it to "Dunmereth", but I find it more likely that the one person who added it to the map didn't know the alternative and no one else fixed it or knew about it.
- Dunmereth, however, is mentioned frequently and is known as the Nordic name for Morrowind/Resdayn. This of course makes sense, as the pass actually leads into the country. Additionally, there are also the analogue Dwemereth (being the land of Dwemer) and the Merethic Era (being the age of the elven kingdoms).
So my final verdict would be that, despite Skyrim making a small reference to it, naming the pass Dunmeth would be like agreeing to call a road leading northwards out of the United States the "Canda Highway", only to make matters worse it sounds more like "Canidoodope Highway".
Comments
[22:44] <@Adanorcil> reading
[22:45] <@Adanorcil> I'ma use this as notepad
[22:45] <@Adanorcil> 1) yeah, they're about honor, but don't ever mention that word, because people get it all wrong and make everyone samuraisThey put great emphasis on individuality and personal honor
[22:47] <@Adanorcil> 2) unless this comes up later, an unrelated note: the Redoran should use a lot of family terminology, i.e. the actual application of the term "House"
[22:47] <@Adanorcil> they have house fathers, brothers, cousins etc.
[22:48] <@Adanorcil> 3) hetmen totally need to be mentioned more
[22:48] <@Adanorcil> Just got to the part where Why did the House Father thing - Adanorcil approves
[22:51] <@Adanorcil> like his procedure for the archmaster (who now requires a better name)
[22:52] <arvisrend> that's his rank in vanilla
[22:52] <@Adanorcil> yeah, just saying
[22:53] <@Adanorcil> this is very fitting for the redoran: they are slightly disparate people who can rise in rank and reputation through great deeds and judicial rule, but when necessary, they will rally together under the flag of a warleader to be Morrowind's unstoppable army
[22:53] <@Adanorcil> the current huge threat of course being Red Mountain
[22:54] <@Adanorcil> this is naturally why Venim moved the main council to Vvardenfell
[22:56] <@Adanorcil> 4) people still misunderstand the "opening" of Vvardenfell in 414
[22:56] <@Adanorcil> it didn't mean no one could go there before, just that Imperials couldn't do trade there or start towns
[22:57] <@Adanorcil> "a few Great House settlements sanctioned by the Temple" (i.e. the Dunmer towns in the game) were always there
[22:57] <@Adanorcil> but that's an aside
[22:59] <@Adanorcil> also, I'm still a little divided on Skar actually moving - I kind of like it for its awesomeness, but also kind of not because it feels like Skar moving shouldn't be something remotely easy and even doing it just once more sullies the tragic desperation of Skar's last stand when the House was finally destroyed in the Oblivion crisis.
[23:00] <@Adanorcil> "the Temple has forbidden any expeditions inside the Ghostfence" - I'm not sure that's technically true, because the Armigers periodically explore the mountain, though those aren't (necessarily) Redoran, so the point more or less stands
[23:01] <arvisrend> aren't the Armigers Temple?
[23:02] <@Adanorcil> kinda, kinda not
[23:02] <@Adanorcil> not in the way Ordinators are temple
[23:02] <Notling|> They're more or less Vivec's sex toys
[23:02] <Notling|> Or so I thought
[23:02] <arvisrend> noone should be Temple the way ordinators are Temple
[23:02] <@Adanorcil> The Armigers are more rag-tag heroes that could be considered Temple by association with Vivec, but they fit the Redoran profile very well otherwise.
[23:03] <@Adanorcil> "We can have some quests about the Hlaalu, but building a giant story arc around it is not a good idea. " -> I strongly agree. The fall from glory is an idea for the Indoril. We can have a border struggle or two (as the vanilla Great Houses did), but I wouldn't make it the big thing.
[23:07] <@Adanorcil> "War Council meets in the Arena of Baan Malur" - we just built a big and rather sweet looking unique council building, so I assume it would make more sense to use that
[23:11] <@Adanorcil> I agree with Haplo on suddenly focussing on Nords
[23:11] <@Adanorcil> they can have a role in it, but it grates me quite a bit to give them center stage
Dunmeth/Dunmereth - the pros and cons:
Here's the arguments for an against:
- Dunmeth is now on a "canon" Skyrim map, but apart from that it is only mentioned in one semi-in-character from the Morrowind development era. It may well have been a typo there. At any rate, either that typo lived on, the Skyrim developers based the name on that one obscure text, or they made the same typo twice, which seems unlikely. There's also the option that they actually preferred it to "Dunmereth", but I find it more likely that the one person who added it to the map didn't know the alternative and no one else fixed it or knew about it.
- Dunmereth, however, is mentioned frequently and is known as the Nordic name for Morrowind/Resdayn. This of course makes sense, as the pass actually leads into the country. Additionally, there are also the analogue Dwemereth (being the land of Dwemer) and the Merethic Era (being the age of the elven kingdoms).
So my final verdict would be that, despite Skyrim making a small reference to it, naming the pass Dunmeth would be like agreeing to call a road leading northwards out of the United States the "Canda Highway", only to make matters worse it sounds more like "Canidoodope Highway".
Also, if anyone wants to have a look at the claim descriptions I've added to N/A claims that would be fine. If I'm missing something, please do tell so it can be fixed before release.
The heightmap will be quite a bit developed, featuring whole areas almost fully conceptualized so that modders will find it easier to continue working on it. It also ensures consistency in our work.
The heightmap will be quite a bit developed, featuring whole areas almost fully conceptualized so that modders will find it easier to continue working on it. It also ensures consistency in our work.
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BTW Nemon, I'm going to wait until after the Sacred East 1.2 release to add the Skyrim architecture set to TR_Data to save on space.
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[06/19/2012 04:15AM] +Cat table stabbing is apparently a really popular sport in morrowind
[August 29, 2014 04:05PM] <+Katze> I am writing an IRC bot! :O
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[06/19/2012 04:15AM] +Cat table stabbing is apparently a really popular sport in morrowind
[August 29, 2014 04:05PM] <+Katze> I am writing an IRC bot! :O
[August 29, 2014 04:25PM] *** Katze has quit IRC: Z-Lined
That qualifies so much I didn't know they existed!
I think that there shouldn't be 4 Redoran settlements aside from Gargen Huul here. Well, I think its fine if they're 1 int, like someone's farm or outpost. The 1 that Gnomey made seems like plenty. The two Nordic settlements seem fine.
I think that there shouldn't be 4 Redoran settlements aside from Gargen Huul here. Well, I think its fine if they're 1 int, like someone's farm or outpost. The 1 that Gnomey made seems like plenty. The two Nordic settlements seem fine.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
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Lady Nerevar
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Just did a run-through of the map 4-5 area in the latest map merges, and, honestly, I think there's too many villages there, too. Or at least too many big ones without any real interest about them (as they stand). I've been gone for half of forever so don't quite know if stuff is planed for there, but, in general, I found the settlements rather lacking in comparison to the very detailed landscapes.
In hoc signo vinces
"you sex craved blue colored red eyed squirrel messiah of a fictional video game world!"
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"you sex craved blue colored red eyed squirrel messiah of a fictional video game world!"
-PoHa!
Just so we're all on the same page, this map http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=20009 is *not* up-to-date. Of the things marked Redoran, 2 is a Velothi-style village, 5 is a Redoran logging outpost, 2 is mostly Nord with a few Redoran buildings lording over them, and 6 is only Redoran in name, being Nord architecture with a couple Redoran guards.
From where I stand I want to keep 2 and 7 as they are because I need them if we're sticking to the civil war thing - 2 as a safe quest-hub for the player, 7 to be the introduction to the Uld Vraech with Redoran oppressing local nords. 5 is an interesting village in the middle of the only woody area in the region and I'd like to have something Dunmer to sack here. If any "Redoran" things need to go, we can probably do without 6, or shrink it. Which is also convenient, because the exterior is currently unclaimed. Or, if we're really set on reducing the amount of architecture here, demote 4 to an inn/trading post only and strip the side buildings.
But honestly, I don't see this region being slightly more populated than one would expect based on the geography as a problem. With its history you'd expect that the free Nords of Morrowind would gather here.
From where I stand I want to keep 2 and 7 as they are because I need them if we're sticking to the civil war thing - 2 as a safe quest-hub for the player, 7 to be the introduction to the Uld Vraech with Redoran oppressing local nords. 5 is an interesting village in the middle of the only woody area in the region and I'd like to have something Dunmer to sack here. If any "Redoran" things need to go, we can probably do without 6, or shrink it. Which is also convenient, because the exterior is currently unclaimed. Or, if we're really set on reducing the amount of architecture here, demote 4 to an inn/trading post only and strip the side buildings.
But honestly, I don't see this region being slightly more populated than one would expect based on the geography as a problem. With its history you'd expect that the free Nords of Morrowind would gather here.
Last edited by Why on Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
or maybe you wouldnt because they dontWhy wrote:With its history you'd expect that the free Nords of Morrowind would gather here.
this area is more crowded than the thirr river valley, which is the heart of morrowind. it should be a periphery location.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
So this is the actual state of the Uld Vraech at the moment:
If all of the unmade towns become farmhouses, which is to say actual tier v settlements, then I would say its pushing it but probably acceptable. I believe Mandul and tba are pretty redundant though and that tba could stand to drop a few ints no matter what.
- Frankhelm. Nordic. 8 Interiors, Tier IV.
[url=http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42876609/TR/5-8-Red/MGE%20Screenshot%20018.png]tba.[/url] Velothi. 13 Interiors, Tier IV.
[url=http://i.imgur.com/0kHMIOi.jpg]Strond.[/url] Nord. 22 Interiors, Tier III.
Kalstet. Nord. ???, not made.
[url=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/glva.jpg/]Mandul.[/url] Redoran. 10 Interiors, Tier IV.
Maelkor's Outpost. Redoran. ???, not made.
Shneif. Redoran. ???, not made.
[url=http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8223/morrowind20110130221413.jpg]Gargen Hu'ul.[/url] Redoran. 12 Interiors, Tier IV.
Total: Using a very conservative estimate of 9 interiors each for the remaining settlements: 92 Interiors.
- Gnisis. Redoran/Imperial. 21 Interiors, Tier III.
Ald Velothi. 8 Interiors, Tier IV.
Khuul. 9 Interiors, Tier IV.
Total: 38 Interiors.
If all of the unmade towns become farmhouses, which is to say actual tier v settlements, then I would say its pushing it but probably acceptable. I believe Mandul and tba are pretty redundant though and that tba could stand to drop a few ints no matter what.
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Yeti
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Cut Shneif, Kalstet and Maelkor's outpost because they haven't been made and no work would be lost.
Cut the Temple and the three Velothi huts closest to it, plus the small hut closest to the docked ship. They're superfluous and the village would look better having all its buildings hugging the cliff. -5 ints
which leaves us with about 70 interiors.
I personally love Mandul, and would hate to see it go or be diminished.
Cut the Temple and the three Velothi huts closest to it, plus the small hut closest to the docked ship. They're superfluous and the village would look better having all its buildings hugging the cliff. -5 ints
which leaves us with about 70 interiors.
I personally love Mandul, and would hate to see it go or be diminished.
-Head of NPCs: [url=http://www.shotn.com/forums/]Skyrim: Home of the Nords[/url]
I'm just curious if you are aiming to make a region of our mod not worth visiting for people. Also I should say I haven't looked at a map of how many villages there are in this X-amount of cells that you all are talking about.Sload wrote:So this is the actual state of the Uld Vraech at the moment:In comparison, the upper West Gash, (that is, beyond Caldera), which is approximately the same size and the same level of remoteness from anything important.
- Frankhelm. Nordic. 8 Interiors, Tier IV.
[url=http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42876609/TR/5-8-Red/MGE%20Screenshot%20018.png]tba.[/url] Velothi. 13 Interiors, Tier IV.
[url=http://i.imgur.com/0kHMIOi.jpg]Strond.[/url] Nord. 22 Interiors, Tier III.
Kalstet. Nord. ???, not made.
[url=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/glva.jpg/]Mandul.[/url] Redoran. 10 Interiors, Tier IV.
Maelkor's Outpost. Redoran. ???, not made.
Shneif. Redoran. ???, not made.
[url=http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8223/morrowind20110130221413.jpg]Gargen Hu'ul.[/url] Redoran. 12 Interiors, Tier IV.
Total: Using a very conservative estimate of 9 interiors each for the remaining settlements: 92 Interiors.This disparity is absurd.
- Gnisis. Redoran/Imperial. 21 Interiors, Tier III.
Ald Velothi. 8 Interiors, Tier IV.
Khuul. 9 Interiors, Tier IV.
Total: 38 Interiors.
If all of the unmade towns become farmhouses, which is to say actual tier v settlements, then I would say its pushing it but probably acceptable. I believe Mandul and tba are pretty redundant though and that tba could stand to drop a few ints no matter what.
EDIT: after looking at an image Sload linked me to which probably was in his post earlier, I think we could do with roughly halving the number of interiors in many of these places.
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[06/19/2012 04:15AM] +Cat table stabbing is apparently a really popular sport in morrowind
[August 29, 2014 04:05PM] <+Katze> I am writing an IRC bot! :O
[August 29, 2014 04:25PM] *** Katze has quit IRC: Z-Lined
[06/19/2012 04:15AM] +Cat table stabbing is apparently a really popular sport in morrowind
[August 29, 2014 04:05PM] <+Katze> I am writing an IRC bot! :O
[August 29, 2014 04:25PM] *** Katze has quit IRC: Z-Lined
I think honestly this (and the Velothi Mountains Region) is the perfect area for more non-urban settlements. Defensive outposts, chitin and fur trapping camps, independent farmhouses, so on, are much more appropriate than 8 different villages.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
I guess a few settlements can be reduced, example Maelkar's outpost. Which could turn into just that, an outpost without anything special to offer besides being an observation point.
Mandul serves a purpose, being the largest lumber resource in a special geographical location with a different climate than the rest of the area due to volcanic activity. It is also a great piece of work.
Shneif and tba could easily be reduced into a couple of fisherman's huts since it is still a WIP in its early stages.
Kalstet was considered a final trading post before entering Skyrim. Shouldn't be more than 2-3 houses imo.
Mandul serves a purpose, being the largest lumber resource in a special geographical location with a different climate than the rest of the area due to volcanic activity. It is also a great piece of work.
Shneif and tba could easily be reduced into a couple of fisherman's huts since it is still a WIP in its early stages.
Kalstet was considered a final trading post before entering Skyrim. Shouldn't be more than 2-3 houses imo.
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Sload wrote:I think honestly this (and the Velothi Mountains Region) is the perfect area for more non-urban settlements. Defensive outposts, chitin and fur trapping camps, independent farmhouses, so on, are much more appropriate than 8 different villages.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
I hate that bridge. It's all flat and angular and looks like some modern construction made of steel girders and crap. It clashes horribly with the soft organic curves of exterior Redoran architecture. It's awful.Sload wrote:[url=http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8223/morrowind20110130221413.jpg]Gargen Hu'ul.[/url] Redoran. 12 Interiors, Tier IV.
If we don't have a suitable Redoran bridge mesh, then use a rope bridge or something. Maybe velothi. Oh my god there's another. No, this will not do. They are awful.
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Yeti
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Jeez Gez, there's no need to act like you're personally offended by the existence of these bridges. A little tact never hurts, you know.
If the bridges really are as bad as you say (I personally don't see much of an issue with them) perhaps something like the Redoran bridge in cell (-25,-3) of Kogotel would be a fitting replacement?
If the bridges really are as bad as you say (I personally don't see much of an issue with them) perhaps something like the Redoran bridge in cell (-25,-3) of Kogotel would be a fitting replacement?
-Head of NPCs: [url=http://www.shotn.com/forums/]Skyrim: Home of the Nords[/url]
Sorry but it's the truth. They're cobbled together from interior meshes, aren't they? It makes about as much sense as building a highway with carpets.
Just the fact that they are square, flat and angular while everything else in the landscape is smooth, round, and organic should be enough to tell that Redoran exts and Redoran ints don't mix.
Look at the sleek curve of the Redoran watch tower. Now cut out the little observation platform on top of it, and rotate it 90 so the about-flat part is on top. Mirror it. You have a beautiful bow-shaped curve on the bottom that looks how a Redoran bridge ought to look. Soft organic curves, with a weathered texture: that's a Redoran ext piece.
Allow me this absolutely ridiculous mockup improvised in MSPaint-like fashion:
[url=http://imgur.com/kWlqLR0][img]http://i.imgur.com/kWlqLR0l.jpg[/img][/url]
Just the fact that they are square, flat and angular while everything else in the landscape is smooth, round, and organic should be enough to tell that Redoran exts and Redoran ints don't mix.
Look at the sleek curve of the Redoran watch tower. Now cut out the little observation platform on top of it, and rotate it 90 so the about-flat part is on top. Mirror it. You have a beautiful bow-shaped curve on the bottom that looks how a Redoran bridge ought to look. Soft organic curves, with a weathered texture: that's a Redoran ext piece.
Allow me this absolutely ridiculous mockup improvised in MSPaint-like fashion:
[url=http://imgur.com/kWlqLR0][img]http://i.imgur.com/kWlqLR0l.jpg[/img][/url]