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Why
Lead Developer
04 Jul 2009

Location: Utrecht

Iuval and Marak can be modest in size, and I like their proximity to one another.It emphasizes that the Thirr is an important political border as well as a geographical one.

I may or may not be trying to dazzle you all with fancy colours in order to win this debate.
Post Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:28 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Nomadic1
Developer Emeritus
15 May 2004

Location: Adelaide, Australia

lol. I'm just giving opinions and observations. How they are considered, if at all, is entirely up to you Razz

But I do think it's something to tread carefully at, no matter what is decided in the end though.

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Post Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:04 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Why
Lead Developer
04 Jul 2009

Location: Utrecht

I appreciate your ideas Nomadic Smile
Post Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:22 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Goddamnit, Why. I had purple for town names. PURPLE. Not RED. Get it right.

Kidding, doesn't matter. We'll continue with the current scheme.



About Iuval and Marak: if we keep them, they need to be on Lake Coronati. The same book that establishes their existence also places them there and is also the very source for the name 'Coronati'. Now others have suggested that because 2920 is a work of (lame) fiction set 1300 years in the past, we can safely ignore it. I'm perfectly fine with this. (NOTE: THIS IS YOUR HEAD OF LORE SAYING THIS.) If we forget about 2920 altogether, we can implement the twin-town dynamic wherever we want, with whatever names we want, and we can also change the name of Coronati. Or move the whole thing to Andaram.

I am also inclined to agree with Nomadic1 about not over-cluttering the lakes. If we keep two towns around Coronati, I think they should be small and clearly work as twins. Andaram should really only have one town/city, or if we move the twin cities here ('Old Keep' becoming one of them), then Coronati should have only one or no settlements. It cannot be the case that both lakes end up having two settlements of any size.

tl;dr Either twin towns on Andaram and one/none on Coronati or small twin settlements on Coronati and at most one on Andaram.
Post Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:52 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
SamirA
Developer Emeritus
27 Apr 2010

Location: Somewhere in Tamriel

Two town close together across the lake and are from different houses? Simply from a man that looks cool factor I support it.
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Post Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:51 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Nemon
Developer Emeritus
18 Oct 2003

Location: Bergen

Ok, just to elaborate a little on the Marak/Iuval distance. If we have them at either side of Lake Coronati, they will be almost three times as far from each other as Seyda Neen and Pelagiad is. So I withdraw my concerns about that, we can also angle the shape of the outposts as not to have them face each other. Thus; we can have them both. And there.
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Post Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:55 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Why
Lead Developer
04 Jul 2009

Location: Utrecht

They totally should face each other though. For the cool/contrast factor. It's not like we have something like that anywhere else.
Post Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:08 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I'm perfectly fine with Iuval and Marak being small and Old Keep, or whatever we call it, being the only settlement on Lake Andaram.

I never hear anyone complain about Peliad and Dren Plantation being literally one cell apart, so we should be fine as long as Lake Coronati is at least three cells wide.


Are there any more thoughts on the current proposals for expanding the Argon Jungle?

How about "Saint Seryn" becoming just "Seryn"?

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Post Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:03 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Nemon
Developer Emeritus
18 Oct 2003

Location: Bergen

Yeti wrote:


Are there any more thoughts on the current proposals for expanding the Argon Jungle?



Head of Exteriors says yes, and it's an easy task to make "dummy cells" for distant view in MGEXE as well.

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Post Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:10 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Nemon wrote:

Head of Exteriors says yes, and it's an easy task to make "dummy cells" for distant view in MGEXE as well.


Yes to extending it into Black Marsh and along the border towards Tear, or just the part about extending it into Black Marsh?

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Post Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:34 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Nemon
Developer Emeritus
18 Oct 2003

Location: Bergen

I say yes to everything nowadays.
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Post Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:02 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Nemon wrote:
I say yes to everything nowadays.


That makes you the opposite of Darth Vader.

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Post Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:57 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Nemon wrote:
I say yes to everything nowadays.

Thanks for the kidney.


No problems with the jungle.

Right then. It's the twin towns on Coronati. We'll talk names later. This leaves us with one city on Lake Andaram. I believe that should be the Dres "Old Keep". I believe it would make a cool location, sitting at the point where the Deshaan chasm-rivers resurface to join the lake and being the center point of House Dres' mercantile dealings with the rest of Morrowind.
Post Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:56 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Why
Lead Developer
04 Jul 2009

Location: Utrecht

Yes, sounds good. I still think it might be interesting to consider using a Dres canton at Old Keep/Aldemmar in conjunction with some terrestrial architecture here, but I suppose that all depends on if we get one of those things done at all. Also, Nemon's ideas for the area seem rather good, so I'm not too concerned about it one way or another.

What else do we need to discuss? Corkarth & ??? region? Seryn? Settlement in the Jungle? I'm still rather fond of the idea of the PC Stronghold for Dres being situated in the Jungle somewhere, but that doesn't mean it's the only Dres thing there.
Post Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:19 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

PC stronghold being in the Jungle sounds like a good idea. It would be the natural location for the Dres to be exspanding and building strongholds and would put the player in the forefront of the conflict with the Argonians.
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Post Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:06 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Nemon
Developer Emeritus
18 Oct 2003

Location: Bergen

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/75536686/TR%20new%20stuff.rar

This is a package containing my retextures of certain rocks, as well as the most up to date version of map 6. It's dirty as hell and barely developed, although parts around Narsis is progressing nicely. Why's concept of a red-ish valley, carved out by the Thirr river has been my inspiration for this stuff. I think the color palette is okay enough, naturally we can fine tune stuff like that.

A little bit deshaan has also been developed. In game those colors and textures look really good in my opinion, can't wait to continue working on these concepts.

Haplo, or someone... please check the files in nifskope and tell me if the texture paths are okay. At one point these files will most likely be included in the bsa so please advice early if I have something wrong in the nifskope texture paths. Don't mind the deshaan storm activator, it's to be deleted.

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Post Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:31 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Mwgek
Developer
11 Apr 2008



Loose the TR folder in Textures. Sadly at the beginning of TR no one thought about making a TR texture folder. In nifskope the texture-path should always be like: Textures\tr_rock_deshaan_02.dds.

Also delete the few Vanilla textures in there? And don't we want unique rocks, like more pointy for the region, because I don't know how the green vertex-paint from the grazelands is going to look on the Deshaan textures.

When I fill a 2056x2056 screen with the texture they look a bit repetitive but if the texture-paths are connected properly we can always adjust textures later on.

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Not
Lead Developer
01 Mar 2012

Location: Elsewhere

Well I'll be damned, you all listened to me! It's good to see you here, mwgek ^^
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Post Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:48 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Nemon
Developer Emeritus
18 Oct 2003

Location: Bergen

I'd say we should mostly use retextures of the BM rocks for map 6. It has not been used in other areas, so it's good enough. We're short on modelers, and I'm not going to ask for concepts, designs and 3d modelling of 60 new meshes since we pretty much know that's not happening. I'd rather have new models for stuff we really need, like dres architecture, irrigation and unique flora for the new lands. Retextures are more than good enough for the background things like landscape and rocks.
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Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

Didn't someone do a de-vertex-painted batch of those rocks? So that the green shadows weren't present? Though, I do like the textures, Nemon
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Post Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:23 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Mwgek
Developer
11 Apr 2008



The few I checked still had green on them. But if we are not going to make unique models let me at least apply dark brownish/red vertex paint on them before they are added to data. After that we can tweak the textures all we want, but the basic mesh set has the same consistent vertex paint.
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Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



I understand this is all just proof of concept, but I do agree with Mwgek that the texture needs to tile considerably less obviously. I usually go by the standard that if you stand close to a large object and you can see the same texture repeat more than twice, it's repeating too much.
I also agree that the vertex shading should be fixed. Luckily, all this can be fixed later.
Post Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:17 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

Ah I see. Only a few of the many rocks Nemon posted have that green vertex shading; the ones that are originally WG rocks. I do think we have some that don't have that green vertex shading though. They are BM style or UV style or something Map 4 or newer...
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Post Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:06 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Why
Lead Developer
04 Jul 2009

Location: Utrecht

forgive my ignorance, but isn't it possible to, uhm, remove the green shading? I remember it being a problem since forever, can't we take care of it?

Also, isn't there more town planning stuff we need to discuss?
Post Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:15 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Mwgek
Developer
11 Apr 2008



It will take me only a day or two to add the correct color to all of the rocks. So before they are added into data I can update them.
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Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



Since Nemon is moving toward making Othreleth Woods happen, here are my notes for that region.

My vision of it was that it was along a river that meets the Thirr at the Coronati. The Othreleth and Thirr bioregions are divided by being different watersheds (with low hills between them). Two to three towns along the river: Heimlyn, Saint Seryn, and a third closer to Kragenmoor. None of these towns is more than 2 exterior cells or 25 interior cells (and at most 1 of them is more than 1 exterior and 18 interiors). The region otherwise is home to small farmers and so on, with plenty of little happy Hlaalu settlements in addition to standard fair caves and dungeons.



othreleth.jpg
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  othreleth.jpg
 Filesize:  353.48 KB
 Downloaded:  124 Time(s)


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Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I apologize for this bit of necromancy, but as far as I can tell this is the correct thread for my post. Taking a short break from my claim and noting this sub-forum which suddenly appeared out of nowhere as I was browsing the forums, I thought I'd toss out my ideas on the Argon Jungle region and the region around Tear, if only for the sake of voicing them and, hopefully, discussion. This is based on my understanding, partly from this thread, that there is currently no clear consensus on how to handle those regions.
I'm also not aiming to establish a consensus, but rather to add fertilizer for future discussion, so to speak.

The basis of my ideas comes from this old Morrowind concept map:

And the first PGE.

My thinking is to turn the Argon Jungle into a swamp and the region around Tear into mudflats. To that end, I fooled around a bit in the CS and made a small proof of concept for both regions, which can be found in the plugin attached below in the cells TR_ArgonSwamp_Test and TR_Mudflats_Test, just south of Ebonheart. They're rather unpolished, but should get the point across.

I also mocked up a map of Dres territory, the elements of which will be explained in the course of this post. The focus is on the regions I mentioned; I didn't put much thought into Deshaan or Lan Orethan, which is why I didn't label those regions. Region borders are shown by the jagged lines, (red=undefined, grey=cliff/mountain, black=jungle). The light shadowing around the edge of Deshaan is an indication of slight elevation. How slight is unimportant for my purposes; the point is that the Andaram watershed and Argon watershed are separated.



And here are some rough concepts for models discussed later in the post:



ARGON SWAMP:


Terrain:
From North to South on the map: Deshaan slope (beige), reed fringe (olive green mass), tussocks (olive green blobs), swamp water (turquoise), forest patches (blue-green blobs), unbroken forest (blue-green mass), jungle wall (the border).

Topography:
The northern half of the region is a very gradual slope, coming down from the Deshaan Plains to underwater at roughly swimming height. The southern half of the region is basically flat. There could be a few very shallow islands between the tussocks, but these should not appear too far south.

Borders:
-western border with Shipal-Shin. Cliffs overlooking the swamp.
-northern border with Deshaan. The reeds form a natural transition.
-eastern border with Mudflats. Seamless reed border, though a low Deshaan ridge could be inserted along the border if desired.
-southern border with Argonia. My thoughts are a physical as well as visual border of impenetrable jungle. The player can levitate over, but the border should be visually defined enough to deter players who don't want to see the rough edges of the mod.

Settlements:
-none so far. Any settlements in the swamp would have to be a canton, like Molag Mar, raised on stilts (ie. shacks) or sit at the edge of the swamp. It would be fun if the player stronghold were to be a canton, but a canton would probably take too long to reasonably build in-game. It would do away with some inherent problems strongholds have, though, such as the inability to disable and conversely enable ground textures like roads.

Travel:
-most travel in the Argon Swamp would be done by boat. Siltstriders would also be a possibility, if they live that far south; as would Sky Renders, though I'm not sure how far they would be able to fly when laden. Settlements, if there are any, would be few and far between after all.

Flora:
-as far as the grass is concerned, TR_Flora_AJ_F02 or a similar model that ideally covers a larger area would do the trick. A model would be needed for the tussocks; either a simple double-sided platform on which grass can be placed or the platform and grass fused together. Its collision mesh should probably be designed to allow the player -- and perhaps more to the point NPCs -- to easily get onto the tussock from the water. Some other AJ shrubs could also be placed sparingly.
-as far as the trees are concerned, the AJ trees, AJ Trama Root and TR_Flora_AJ_F03 make for a start, but a few more bush-like models will probably be needed to get the right dense look. The Argon Swamp could also use some more foreboding flora. A natural light source would also be good, preferably giving off an odd colour of light. (Brown light?) Algae colonies similar to in_dwrv_oilslick00 in appearance would congregate around the trees and around other vegetation. The algae would overlap with the swamp muck, and if I remember correctly alphas don't stack well with each other, but I can think of a few workarounds if that becomes a problem.
-as far as the swamp water is concerned, I'm thinking a more transparent and paler variant on the Bittercoast muck.

Fauna:
-most creatures would be ill suited to the terrain. I'd suggest a mixture of vicious fishes and flying animals, similar to the Swamp Fly, and also very homicidal. Carnivorous plants also always make for a good addition, if they can be gotten to work.

New Models:
-three sets of models would be required for the Argon Swamp as described above: at least one tussock model, one or four swamp muck models, and at least one algae model. All of those models are rather simple, the latter two being retextures. New creatures and underbrush would also need adding, but that is a general issue with the Argon Jungle.

DRES MUDFLATS:


Terrain:
From inland to coast on the map: Deshaan slope (beige), high vegetation patches/trees (blue-green blobs), reed fringe (olive green), mudflats (brown), water (blue).

Topography:
Basically the region is made up of long, shallow slopes which reach their deepest points near the openings of bays. The actual mudflats and most of the water inside the bay would be almost flat, with the occasional very shallow pool or very shallow island, respectively. If the region looks too dull and flat, narrow, four-to-eight-foot high channels can be added, forming very shallow canyons. There could also be a few small salt ponds and swamp ponds beyond the mudflats.

Borders:
-northern border with Lan Orethan (dark green). High vegetation/trees mix with the Lan Orethan forest.
-northwestern border with Deshaan. Deshaan slopes down to reeds, in some places directly to the mudflats, etc.
-southwestern border with Argon Swamp; see Argon Swamp.
-southern border with Argonia. High vegetation/trees mix with above-ground impenetrable Argon Jungle.

Settlements:
-Tear, a canton city in the mudflats. Offers ship travel to (ostia), (forest town) and Balsan Mar, as well as a possible slaver base up river on the border to Black Marsh. Over-land travel to Corkarth during low tide, which, due to game mechanics, is always. While Tear is the traditional center, trade center and slave center of Dres, it is rather out-of-the-way, practically sitting in Black Marsh. There would probably be a large disconnect between the (extensive) population of Tear and the rest of the Dres population.
-Corkarth, unlike Tear, is on the high water line, which means that it is land-locked a lot of the time. While it supposedly offers ship travel during high tide, high tide never happens due to game mechanics. (ostia) operates as a proxy port. Over-land travel to everywhere Dres. Corkarth could serve as the de facto administrative center of Dres lands, as it has a more central position than Tear while still being close to Tear. Any exchange of resources between Tear and the Deshaan would probably occur through Corkarth and (ostia). That being said, the Dres leadership would be in Tear or wherever they're supposed to be.
-(ostia), its placeholder name naturally coming from Ostia Antica, Rome's harbour. This is a small village with a strong industrial focus. It provides ship travel to Tear, (forest town), Balsan Mar and possibly (slaver town) through the swamp. Over-land travel to Corkarth, Silnim, and, during low tide, northwards. During high tide, which as established never actually happens in-game, most of its business goes to Corkarth. That includes travel to Dres locations further north, because the direct over-land route is submerged during high tide and Corkarth's sea route north is far more direct than (ostia)'s river route.

Travel:
The coastal Dres would be very familiar with the changing tides, and would have adjusted their habits to fit, alternating between land-based and water-based travel in a very organic and seemingly spontaneous fashion. Their whole economy relies on their ability to adapt to the tides, so as to safely transport goods and slaves. Outlanders, naturally, would often have more trouble getting used to the local conditions. They would generally avoid land routes for fear of being washed away by a rising tide, (and because the Dres aren't very outlander friendly, of course), but would often still get their ships stranded in the mudflats.

Flora:
-at the high water mark, aside from the Argon Jungle resources, Marshmerrow, Saltrice and, possibly, bamboo could grow.
-on the mudflats themselves, one or two kelp plants might be nice, as well as some sort of natural light source. From what we already have, clams, barnacles and maybe vanilla Morrowind's sea grass could work, though new, non-pearl-bearing clams would be better. Other things to fill the region would be Daedric Ruins, the rare ship-wreck and maybe Sky Render nests. Maybe ruins in the Old Mournhold style.

Fauna:
-probably a lot of crabs, maybe Ornada and/or Kwama. Deshaan fauna could or could not be present; the long-legged Velk could manage pretty well there, as could the Siltstrider. It might be fun to have some fish trapped in the pools. Other than that, Sky Renders.

New Models:
-none really required to pull the Mudflats off, though some kelp variants and other plants you could imagine being submerged half the time might be nice. As with the Argon Swamp, grass models that cover more ground could come in handy. Also, a Saltrice model that covers more ground would be very helpful; for Saltrice plantations as well as the mudflats. Silt dunes and very low cliff meshes could add some variety to the topography, but are not really necessary. (The cliff meshes could just be retextures of in_mud_rock_07 or some similar flattish rock).

ROADS AND SETTLEMENTS

I didn't put too much thought into this part. (slaver town) made sense as an addition to my map because the river it sits on connects Black Marsh with Deshaan. (ostia) made sense because I felt like having Corkarth above the high water mark to make it distinct from Tear, with the result that Corkarth would be land-locked at low tide. The other settlements are roughly following the other maps in this thread. The roads are just what I thought would make sense given the settlements. There would naturally also be roads leading out of Dres lands, I just haven't drawn them. I wasn't sure whether to put a road between Tear and Black Marsh, as I figure people would just use ships, either moving down the coast or up the river.

Edit: tell me if the map breaks the formatting of the forum; it fits fine for me, but I have a wide monitor.



TR_DresRegions_Test.ESP
 Description:
The cells are TR_ArgonSwamp_Test, just south of Ebonheart, and TR_Mudflats_Test, just southwest of Ebonheart. Requires TR_Data and its dependencies.

Download
 Filename:  TR_DresRegions_Test.ESP
 Filesize:  461.6 KB
 Downloaded:  61 Time(s)



Last edited by Gnomey on Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:16 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:26 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Nemon
Developer Emeritus
18 Oct 2003

Location: Bergen

Interesting. I'm at work right now, can't check this esp file - is it based on the map 6 file I uploaded?
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Post Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:52 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

No, nothing as grand as that. Just three cells I changed south of Ebonheart. I didn't even think to look at the Map 6 file, though I think I'll do that now.
Post Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:08 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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