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Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Though it has been very quiet over the last few years, TR's writing department has been a part of the project for a very long time. Unfortunately, that antiquity also means that some of the things the department contributed over the years do not really live up the standards and vision of present day TR. Recently, we have reached a consensus that this problem should be fixed. This thread explains how we are planning to tackle the matter and how you can be part of it.

TR_Data (the esm master file that provides all books not specifically linked to a claim) currently contains a large number of books of varying quality. These books have been reviewed by a number of people and were then divided into various categories of priority. This way, we hope to first replace exceptionally embarrassing texts, before moving on to less problematic ones, which can perhaps be redeemed with some judicious editing alone. A special category are the many Daggerfall texts that the mod still contains. These were always more placeholders than anything and, with a few exceptions, should eventually be replaced by more fitting ones.

The next post contains a list of books currently under consideration, along with an indication of what is supposed to happen to them. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what various books can be replaced by, specifically those for which there are no concrete ideas yet. Once we have come up with a good replacement, a thread will be opened in which one or several writers can provide a replacement or perform the required changes. Keep the following things in mind when discussing:

  • Not all books that are slated to be removed have to be replaced by brand new TR-penned material. Some of the Hammerfell-related TR texts, material from Temple Zero (link) and pieces from The Imperial Library's Obscure Texts (link) would work very well for the mod. These will all be considered in the near future, but if one of them strikes you as a particularly fitting replacement, feel free to mention it.

  • Books that are currently part of a series need not (and perhaps should not) be replaced by an equally long series. They can be unrelated books. Ideally, the various volumes should not be replaced by contradictory topics, so that any interior that has the entire series does not end up having a very eclectic collection of books, but this problem is probably negligible.

  • Some research has gone into figuring out how many times a particular book was used in the current TR_Mainland (this of course ignores all unmerged claims, but at least offers some indication). Specifically we also wanted to know whether they were used in a location-relevant way (e.g. Imperial book in Imperial town; magic book in a sorcerer's lair, ...). Luckily, it turns out that this was not usually the case for the low quality books. Therefore, unless indicated otherwise, you do not have to worry about suggesting replacements with a similar subject or spirit. In the case of Category 0 books you should probably actively refrain from doing so, because that's half the reason we wanted to get rid of them.

  • When discussing a particular book, always put the book's TR_Data ID (found in the list below) above your post in bold. This should hopefully make the discussion quite a bit more manageable.

  • Before you propose (an idea for) a replacement, make sure you have read the description of what sort of books TR can use (link).



Last edited by Adanorcil on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:42 pm; edited 5 times in total
Post Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:01 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Updated 2 Jan 2014 (arvisrend)

Use Ctrl-F to look through this list.

BOOKS CURRENTLY UNDER CONSIDERATION


Category 0


We'll start of with these, books that require immediate replacement. Some of these are stylistically unacceptable, others are factually incorrect or are plain stupid. There is no point discussing "fixing these up"; it will not happen.


  • TR_bk_HandbookDevout
    Replace with Dunmer religious text. Ideas?
  • TR_bk_YilgamsehVolumeXI
    Already slated to be replaced by a Tribunal saint gospel. The entire gospel series needs a look-over, though.
  • TR_bk_YilgamsehVolumeXII
    Already slated to be replaced by a Tribunal saint gospel. The entire gospel series needs a look-over, though.


Category 1

The next worst thing. Not as embarassing as catergory 0, but in high need of replacement too.

  • TR_bk_AlmalexiaHistory: Rewrite for current status (wait until Almalexia is well and truly done).
  • TR_bk_ArkhonLim_NP: Turn into a short Daedric grimoire? Got some stuff lying around for that. More on this shortly.
  • TR_bk_AssassinsDiary_JC
  • TR_bk_ConfessionsandResort_AF
  • TR_bk_CowardiceOfTheEnemy: Restore Health spellbook. Maybe make two versions: Tribunal one (Temple mumbo jumbo) and Imperial one (mumbo jumbo about Mara).
  • TR_bk_CrimesofTri_JC: Fix mistakes only.
  • TR_bk_DalgorJournal_I: Replace with invocation to good luck/Nocturnal/knowledge of secrets/...
  • TR_bk_DwemerBurialCustoms
  • TR_bk_FableValenwood: Keep as something Valenwoody, but not so boring.
  • TR_bk_FateoftheSnowElves:Marked this as 1, because I believe it has some great stuff, that's currently being marred by some more negative aspects. See review list for how I think this could be fixed.
  • TR_bk_HerooftheIndoril: Replace with Dunmer historic text. Indoril links, preferably.
  • TR_bk_HoundsofHircine
  • TR_bk_LastDartoftheScholar
  • TR_bk_MasonSong
  • TR_bk_Metamorphosis_BM: Rewrite, also fix cover to something not Dwemer. this means we'll have to replace the text by something Dwemer, and use the rewritten text in a different book -- arvis
  • TR_bk_MwhStonefall: Rewrite, update (Andothren) and fact check.
  • TR_bk_RedemptionI
  • TR_bk_RedemptionII
  • TR_bk_RedemptionIII
  • TR_bk_RedemptionIV
  • TR_bk_RedemptionV
  • TR_bk_RuhnAniaALMSIVI: Polish
  • TR_bk_SevenPennants: Write a proper text instead of a rip-off sermon.
  • TR_bk_TheFour
  • TR_bk_TheNecklace_KV: Used in a quest. Style cannot change too much.
  • TR_bk_VarietiesofThoughtI
  • TR_bk_VarietiesofThoughtII
  • TR_bk_VarietiesofThoughtIII
  • TR_bk_Vvardenfell'sEpidemic: This book is mistaken in not distinguishing between Vvardenfell's ash storms (which are an entirely natural phenomenon) and the blight storms. Clearly, Dagoth Ur's defeat will stop the blight, but ash storms would definitely not stop. Otherwise fine, though I wouldn't have minded if corprus' early stages had some more bizarre symptoms.
  • TR_bk_WarofHonor_WW





-----------------------------------------------------



BOOKS REPLACED


  • TR_bk_BecameMonster1_NT: Inside Almalexia's Tongs
  • TR_bk_BecameMonster2_NT: Ordolane's Bestiary, vol. 17
  • TR_bk_BecameMonster3_NT: Ordolane's Bestiary, vol. 9
  • TR_bk_BloodyEnd_BM: Lament for Pelinal
  • TR_bk_Boethiahandthebridge: The Water-getting Girl and the Inverse Tiger
  • TR_bk_CorprusAwake: Orc Creation Story
  • TR_bk_DawnsDisplacement: The Skylamp Night
  • TR_bk_Diary_SD: Removed.
  • TR_bk_Drakehold_NP: And We Ate It To Become It
  • TR_bk_EmnvaeC_EL: The Divadamakalluh
  • TR_bk_exovel_AN_MJ: Removed
  • TR_bk_exovel_bb_MJ: Removed
  • TR_bk_Father_JC: A Traditional Sload Tale
  • TR_bk_GuardsMemory: Painted Peoples: Tattooing across the Empire
  • TR_bk_Helotry1_BM: Remanada, Volume 1
  • TR_bk_Helotry2_BM: Remanada, Volume 2
  • TR_bk_HuntedVolumeI - VI: Song of Pelinal V1-6
  • TR_bk_ImMyOwnGrandpa: Song of Pelinal, v8
  • TR_bk_JourElindaCad_KM: Removed
  • TR_bk_KindledSpiritVol1: Aldudagga, Fight One
  • TR_bk_KindledSpiritVol2: Aldudagga, Fight Two
  • TR_bk_KindledSpiritVol3: Aldudagga, Fight Three
  • TR_bk_KindledSpiritVol4: Aldudagga, Fight Six
  • TR_bk_LastDanceoftheWamasus: How To Tune Your Hoom: A Guide
  • TR_bk_RiverEnd1_EL: Djulighana's Role in the Snakewise Debacle
  • TR_bk_SHandMT_VA: Removed
  • TR_bk_SHotS_VA: Removed
  • TR_bk_slavetrade: St. Rilms' lesson
  • TR_bk_SRofSH_VA: Removed
  • TR_bk_TravelIll1_PY: Reman, Son of Reman
  • TR_bk_TravelIll2_PY: The Blessed Life of St. Reman II
  • TR_bk_TravelIll3_PY: Shor, son of Shor
  • TR_bk_TravelIll4_PY: Su-Diang Qergo
  • TR_bk_TravelIll5_PY: Names of Mother Cyrod
  • TR_bk_TravelsonVvardenfell: The Uprising in Almalexia
  • TR_bk_VarietiesofHeresy: Dunmer Law: A Primer
  • TR_bk_WebspinnersWill: Removed
  • TR_bk_WordsMatron_WW: Song of Pelinal, v7
  • TR_bk_WwSS_VA: Removed


Last edited by Adanorcil on Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:25 am; edited 6 times in total
Post Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:19 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Silvone Elestahr
Developer
06 Oct 2003

Location: Pelagiad

How about a book reminiscent of Aesop's Fables, written by a member of the Temple to ridicule the Dissident Priests, and perhaps even the Cult of the Neravarine?

It would be written in a lighthearted note, more as off-hand ridicule than a defensive posture. I think such a book would go a long way to convince a majority of readers of the Temple's own point of view than a strongly worded text would to convince those on the other side.

It would be relatively easy to write, and only a few short fables would be needed to set the tone. Perhaps there could even be two or three different volumes of it?

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Post Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:29 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Nanu
Developer Emeritus
16 Feb 2006

Location: Virginia

If done right, I think that'd be great. Writing good fables isn't easy, though.
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Post Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:47 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Bloodthirsty Crustacean
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2007

Location: Elsewhere

The existing standalone, and Lutemoth-illustrated, 'Tale of the Dubious Trader' about the Dres and the Sload might be worth considering for inclusion. I think it's usable as a resource.

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=5909

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Post Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:14 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Theo
Developer Emeritus
16 Dec 2004

Location: PRAGUE

Because, as Adanorcil mentioned, books should serve as a way to add a new content, that is simply beyond modding capacities, may I suggest that some new books were written, that would utilize the best of lore and concept art, that was developed for other provinces. Just looking at the concept art section there is quite a lot of cool Hammerfell, but even Argonia and Elsweyr stuff, that could be brought to the mod in form of some illustrated books.
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Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



Two book ideas. Separate books, but strongly connected with each other. Both juxtapose the Dunmer with the Argonians and talk about the Dres district and its history. (Could replace for example TR_bk_Helotry1_BM and TR_bk_Helotry2_BM).

1. The Slave Lord [working title]. A tale of an Argonian slave in the Deshaan told from the slave’s point of view, written down by an anonymous author. It will contain descriptions of the plains, of Morrowind in general, and of the slavedrivers as the slave realizes them: the plains are a fantastically hellish field of dust, the Dunmer slavers are faceless and demonic ghouls, and the Dres nobility are half-surreal gilded demi-gods. The story begins with the slave’s failed escape attempt, his capture and a subsequent meeting with a young Dres noble visiting his plantation who surprisingly wants to hear the slave out. Their conversation ends with the slave’s unexpected release and he's allowed to travel with the next caravan of slavers back to his homeland. Set a few decades in the past, the book will hint at the Arnesian War that is yet to come. It will also feature a slavedriver named Roris subtly suggesting that he is actually Saint Roris whom the official Temple “Gospel of Saint Roris” claims was a monk on a pilgrimage, not a leader of a caravan of slavers. Also, it’s implied that the released Argonian slave is the warlord Visthalu who’s the one who martyred Saint Roris. The somewhat blasphemous references to the gospel are done subtle enough so the book wouldn’t be outright banned. All in all the tale will still give us a stark contrast to the official Gospel, with the supposed-Roris being the bad guy and the supposed-Visthalu being the one who’s oppressed, as well as feverish flashes of the slaves’ conditions in the Deshaan plains.

2. On the Arnesian War. An Imperial scholar’s study of the Arnesian War, focusing on the reason’s behind the war and the effects of its outcome that can be seen today. It proposes that the horrible mistreatment of the slave population, the internal political vacuum created by Queen Barenziah’s departure to Cyrodiil and the weakened Imperial presence in both provinces (due to the Imperial Simulacrum) all contributed to the war. It also discusses the war’s triggering event, the death of Saint Roris. It is speculated who Roris actually was (the author will compare the official “Gospel of Saint Roris” with “The Slave Lord”) or whether or not he was real to begin with. The author will not go into detail with the events of the war itself with its countless skirmishes (the author might note the fact that there are many sources which contradict each other, and the war might still be too “hot” to be studied objectively by anyone). The second part of the book studies briefly the effects of the war on Dunmer society of today. It ponders if anything has been learned of the war: are the slaves being treated any better, is the Imperial presence any stronger, are the internal political struggles of Morrowind as unstable as they were during that time.

I have sketched a few paragraphs for both books and would really like to finish them too.

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Last edited by Rats on Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:58 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

Rats wrote:
1. The Slave Lord [working title]. A tale of an Argonian slave in the Deshaan told from the slave’s point of view, written down by an anonymous author.


There's the germ of something good in this, but i'd say two things. Firstly, anonymous authors are a bit of a cliché in TR books. I can understand the rationale for it here but i'd suggest it's something to avoid if at all possible. Secondly, what's the market for a book like this in Morrowind? Who would own and read it? Even Dunmer with a neutral or anti-slavery inclination would probably rankle at being described in the ways you mention.

My suggestion: make it more of an Olaudah Equiano style autobiographical narrative, written by an educated former slave for the purposes of encouraging empathy and swinging those neutral Dunmer into the abolitionist cause. So go easy on the insults, describe instead how terrifying and monstrous the slavers seemed to the writer, and focus more on their feelings with the benefit of hindsight. It's a subtle change that (hopefully) wouldn't mean you have to rewrite what you've done too much. Add something positive too about how they got out of slavery and discovered the whole Dunmer race wasn't awful (this can be BS if you like, for the benefit of the reader). Leave the stuff about Roris in but be discreet about it.

Quote:
2. On the Arnesian War.


This one sounds ok in principle, quite a broad subject.

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Post Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:57 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Would it be alright to take some choice books from Oblivion? Father Of The Niben, for instance, is an interesting lore-building text, that could replace one of our many generic poetry books.
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Post Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:32 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Nanu
Developer Emeritus
16 Feb 2006

Location: Virginia

Theo wrote:
Because, as Adanorcil mentioned, books should serve as a way to add a new content, that is simply beyond modding capacities, may I suggest that some new books were written, that would utilize the best of lore and concept art, that was developed for other provinces. Just looking at the concept art section there is quite a lot of cool Hammerfell, but even Argonia and Elsweyr stuff, that could be brought to the mod in form of some illustrated books.


Yes. That's a great idea, especially for the black and white images.

Yeti wrote:
Would it be alright to take some choice books from Oblivion? Father Of The Niben, for instance, is an interesting lore-building text, that could replace one of our many generic poetry books.


Choice being the key word here, but I'd say yes provided this isn't breaking some TOS of BethSoft's.

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Post Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:43 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Xui'al
Developer Emeritus
29 Mar 2005

Location: Wastelands of Canada.

It has been far too many years since I've written something for Tamriel Rebuilt. I've long debated a treatise on naval war magic, as this would allow the expansion of magic beyond wizards casting fireballs. Is this something anyone would be interested in? Finishing off that set I started years ago on the defences of eastern Morrowind would might also be fun.
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Post Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:26 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Thrignar Fraxix
Developer Emeritus
06 Dec 2004

Location: Silnim

Xui'al wrote:
I've long debated a treatise on naval war magic, as this would allow the expansion of magic beyond wizards casting fireballs..


please yes

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Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

On the Yilgamseh replacements, we--I believe--have two Sermons still considered "WIP" in this forum to replace them.
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Post Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:23 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Xui'al
Developer Emeritus
29 Mar 2005

Location: Wastelands of Canada.

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:
Xui'al wrote:
I've long debated a treatise on naval war magic, as this would allow the expansion of magic beyond wizards casting fireballs..


please yes


Glad to see some enthusiasm. I'm thinking I'll give it a Second Era author, someone who teaches battlemages but who has no real practical experience. An armchair wizard, if you will. The focus will be on magic and the imperial navy, since that's who commissioned the work. The author's main field is naval magic, but he's also very unimpressed with the current state of it, and will regularly make disparaging remarks about the navy itself and its top brass. A bit of a pompous intellectual jerk, actually. How does that sound?

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Terrifying Daedric Foe
Developer
26 Aug 2010

Location: England

Xui'al wrote:
Finishing off that set I started years ago on the defences of eastern Morrowind would might also be fun.

Do you mean this? I remember reading that book a while ago and really enjoying it. I would love to write volume two.

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Post Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:05 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Xui'al
Developer Emeritus
29 Mar 2005

Location: Wastelands of Canada.

Yes, that one. If you want to write the second volume, go ahead.

I've got some thoughts on paper regarding the naval warfare thing. It's coming together, hopefully in a sufficiently bizarre TES fashion. I doubt it'll be done in the next couple of weeks though. That silly "thesis" thing and those other silly "Greek" and "Syriac" and "French" things take a lot of time.

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Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

Xui'al wrote:
That silly "thesis" thing and those other silly "Greek" and "Syriac" and "French" things take a lot of time.


You silly Ph.D man, you!

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[06/19/2012 04:15AM] +Cat table stabbing is apparently a really popular sport in morrowind

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Post Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:18 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
rot
Lead Developer
21 Oct 2012



I noticed there isn't any spellbook associated with the Mark or Recall spells, and thought some fine fun with one such book would be, obviously, that it transports you somewhere else if you don't know its spell. Now, my pretext for proposing that silly gimmick is this:

Either an old tale or semi-historical bit on early/pre-Telvanni culture, dealing with an old tradition of more "honourable" dueling as show of power between mages, and how it was progressively abandoned. The whole thing presumably illustrating how they came to their current generally devious (but straight when it comes to power) mindset.

What do you say? Not very topical to what we're doing now, but could be of use to replace books in map 1 - that's if it doesn't contradict vanilla/TR stuff. I don't even know when the current Houses were founded or anything...
Post Sat May 18, 2013 1:23 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



I like the idea that it backfires if you don't know the spell. On the condition, of course, that's it's not too much of a challenge to lower level characters.

I'm not sure about the more "honorable" Telvanni. The idea doesn't really do much to make them better as a people, I think.
Post Mon May 20, 2013 8:38 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
rot
Lead Developer
21 Oct 2012



Was thinking it'd send you to some far out-of-the-way cave or natural exterior spot that most people won't normally find while playing, surely there are those that deserve some more attention?

I didn't mean Redoran-flavour honourable so much as, something with actual rules. Which rules the Telvanni would twist and eventually abandon entirely. The whole thing is entirely unnecessary for the mark/recall topic, just trying to find some acceptable fluff for it. :3
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arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

Let me resurrect some writing proposals (sadly, noone has volunteered) from internal discussion and IRC queries, and add a new one:

- We REALLY need Temple texts! Particularly, an accessible one for a wider audience (to replace the crappy TR_bk_HandbookDevout) and a possibly more obscure one (to replace TR_bk_SevenPennants which is a sermon rip-off). The accessible one isn't forbidden to have a double bottom or allusions to the more wacky parts of the Tribunal cult and backstory, but it should make sense on a superficial level as well. (So, no Temple Zero stuff here.)

- Adanorcil proposes to replace TR_bk_CavesOfIce with "Nord invocation of sorts. Involves cold". (It's the spellbook for Weakness to Frost.)

- Adanorcil about TR_bk_ConfessionsandResort_AF: "Replace with cautionary and somewhat harrowing account of Sheogorath's increasing grasp over an Ordinator's mind. Should be about Dunmer insanity, not just about the “waistcoat banker” Sheogorath we're used to."

- We need a text on the history (a generic introduction, or a closeup of some concrete events) of House Indoril, to replace TR_bk_HerooftheIndoril.

- The cultural significance and tradition of rat fights in Morrowind. I don't know if they are a uniquely Hlaalu thing (they only appear in the Hlaalu questline in MW, see the "game rats" topic), but they seem to have some more meaning than cheap entertainment. [I'd also like to make some rat fight quests in Almalexia, but that needs not be related to the book.]

- A leaked report of an Imperial Legionnaire about corruption and dereliction at some Imperial fort in Morrowind (Windmoth?). The report was meant to go to somebody in Cyrodiil, but was intercepted and publicized by the Dunmer (House Indoril?), and now circulates as a (propaganda) book popular among traditionalists. Of course, the Imperials would contest the report's authenticity when confronted with it, and noone would be surprised if some editing was done to it before its release to the populace.

- Nemon suggests travel notes: a road from a point to another described by a merchant, or a region explained by a scout. Original tone: "What I would like to have in our project, is books related to the areas we've made so far, like a traveler's description on the road from A to B, a scout's musings on the plains of [insert name here] and so on. I.e, the caved in daedric ruin in the Armun ashlands, wouldn't that be cool to have read about in some library and then actually visiting the ruin in question later on? Or the small labyrintish area north west of Ald Erfoud, just a small patch of interesting tiny canyons but nonetheless a noteworthy addition to the geography texts." As always, thinly veiled adventuring should be avoided (people normally have better reasons to go from A to B), and so should be direct(!) game hints.

- Camonna-Tong related material. Why? Because we have about zilch of it (except the mention in BookSkill_Alteration1). This is somewhat challenging because most of Camonna Tong lore is unspecified so far (or I just don't know it) -- the author will probably have to create half of it from scratch -- and because there are no straightforward reasons for a Dunmer to write about the Tong. I can think of some non-straightforward reasons: (1) hurting the reputation of an opposing faction (house?) by associating it with the Camonna; (2) sending a veiled threat to someone by writing crime fiction with personae uncanilly similar to real ones; (3) collecting the songs and folklore of the Camonna (IRL mafias are known to have a musical culture, and usually don't mind it spreading as it helps glorifying them). Or the author could be an Imperial passing by Morrowind (but that would be more boring).

- A completed version of the Book of Rest and Endings to replace the (annoying and immersion-breaking) "cult mumbo-jumbo" ellipsis.

- A scientific treatise about what the heck is vampire dust.

- I know this is clichéed, but a collection of Dunmeri curses (the long-winded artistic variety, not the equivalent of four-letter words; think of what people say about each other before a duel) would still be fun to read.

- 5 poison recipes, along with stories of their alleged uses in Morrowind's history. Think of an Imperial version of "5 most deadly Australian animals", written mainly for a Cyrodilic reader, but eventually winding up time and again in Morrowind homes.

- A scientific explanation of birthsign bonuses.


Last edited by arvisrend on Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:48 am; edited 6 times in total
Post Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:50 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gez
Developer Emeritus
22 Jul 2005



Adanorcil wrote:
Some of the Hammerfell-related TR texts, material from Temple Zero (link) and pieces from The Imperial Library's Obscure Texts (link) would work very well for the mod.

Problem is that many of them cannot be justified as books in Morrowind. Some are anachronistic, confidential, or both. (Or sometimes they are just far too Kirkbridey.) What could one do with Sotha Sil's Last Words? Besides putting them in a locked mailbox in Divayth Fyr's sanctum, nothing. Speaking of Divayth Fyr, I don't think we can use Gary Noonan's texts as books either; they're written as letters or diary but why would he publish them?

Most of the texts come from MK. The Imperial Census on Daedra Lords is a shoe-in; it's one that was written specifically to be an in-universe book.

'A Type of Zero Still to Be Discovered' -- uh... Maybe in some scholarly stuff about dwemer. I'm not sure who else would be interested.

'How Beautiful You Are That You Do Not Join Us' -- more a rambling in-joke than actual lore; though I guess it could replace the sermon rip off that is the Seven Pennant.

Cosmology -- acceptable

Dominion Prism Textract -- Kirkbride's love of technbabble that makes it look like Tamriel is the Matrix strikes again.

Foul Murder -- not a book, though it could be used as an anti-Tribunal propaganda piece if for some reason we need one.

Fragments from "The Adabal-a" -- potentially usable, if fleshed a bit so it's not just a couple of unconnected fragments. (That requires good writing skills.)

From The Many-Headed Talos -- potentially usable, same comment.

Histories of Strange Pre-Marriage -- more a forum thing about actual people than usable lore

Lament for Pelinal -- usable

Lord Vivec's Sword-Meeting With Cyrus the Restless -- I guess it could replace some adventure books?

Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel -- should be obvious why it's not usable

Magne-Ge Pantheon -- probably too obscure (heh) to be usable

Nu-Hatta of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree -- no

Nu-Mantia Intercept -- no

Shezarr and the Eight Divines -- not directly usable, since it is written as a personal response to someone. It'd have to be slightly rewritten to be used as a book.

Shor son of Shor -- usable I guess, though like other Skyrim-inspiring books it wouldn't really have much reason to be used outside of the Redoran/Nord area.

Source of Chaos -- hard to see why that would be published

The Five Hundred Mighty Companions or Thereabouts of Ysgramor the Returned -- usable I guess, but Skyrimy and injokey. And also your eyes can't help but glaze over the long list of improbable names.

The Seven Fights of The Aldudagga -- usable

The Song of Return: Skyrim, a Preamble -- maybe? Another Skyrimy stuff.

The Tsaesci Creation Myth And we ate it to become it -- who would publish that?

The Water-getting Girl and the Inverse Tiger -- usable, drop the "part one" thing though since it'd be dumb to have a Part I with no Part II and later.

Tiber Septim’s Sword-Meeting with Cyrus the Restless -- like Vivec & Cyrus's Excellent Adventures, but with less reason to use it since a) it's unfinished and b) it doesn't involve Vivec or another prominent Dunmer

Vehk's Teaching -- not directly usable as a book, but it could be rewritten into one maybe

What My Beloved Taught Me -- not directly usable as a book, would probably be considered blasphemous by the Temple

Where were you when the Dragon Broke? -- longer version of an in-game book; no real reason to use it since it's already in the game

On the Nords' Lack of a Creation Myth -- usable, Skyrimy

et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer -- doesn't seem like the kind of things that end up being published.
Post Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:08 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

TR_bk_ImMyOwnGrandpa and TR_bk_WordsMatron_WW are replaced by Pelinal pieces.

Gez, thanks for the post! I'll make some comments, but I didn't have the time to read the books in detail; don't expect anything smart below this line.

Gez wrote:
'A Type of Zero Still to Be Discovered' -- uh... Maybe in some scholarly stuff about dwemer. I'm not sure who else would be interested.


I don't understand a single sentence in that text.

Gez wrote:
'How Beautiful You Are That You Do Not Join Us' -- more a rambling in-joke than actual lore; though I guess it could replace the sermon rip off that is the Seven Pennant.


I don't understand a single sentence in that text.

Gez wrote:
Cosmology -- acceptable


This? Isn't it a bit too explicit? I'd expect it more in a game manual than in a game.

Gez wrote:
Dominion Prism Textract -- Kirkbride's love of technbabble that makes it look like Tamriel is the Matrix strikes again.


Agree, this shouldn't be in the game.

Gez wrote:
Foul Murder -- not a book, though it could be used as an anti-Tribunal propaganda piece if for some reason we need one.


Nice picture. :) Do the signs mean something?

Gez wrote:
Fragments from "The Adabal-a" -- potentially usable, if fleshed a bit so it's not just a couple of unconnected fragments. (That requires good writing skills.)


Should we ask Lady N?

Gez wrote:
From The Many-Headed Talos -- potentially usable, same comment.


Same question.

Gez wrote:
Histories of Strange Pre-Marriage -- more a forum thing about actual people than usable lore


Hmm. Is this a lampshade of people clinging to every straw when interpreting historical fragments? Either way, I do think it's a good addition to the game, though I'd prefer to have more of a clue as to what it means.

Gez wrote:
Lament for Pelinal -- usable


And used.

Gez wrote:
Lord Vivec's Sword-Meeting With Cyrus the Restless -- I guess it could replace some adventure books?


Replacement for TR_bk_TravelsonVvardenfell? A cursory look suggests that this could be a spellbook for Detect Enchantment, which so far has no spellbook assigned.

Gez wrote:
Magne-Ge Pantheon -- probably too obscure (heh) to be usable


I'm in no position to judge MK's obscure stuff; does this make any sense as a book in Telvanni towers?

Gez wrote:
Shezarr and the Eight Divines -- not directly usable, since it is written as a personal response to someone. It'd have to be slightly rewritten to be used as a book.


Agree. The style is again too much out-of-game. As far as books being written as responses, I recall we have precedents for that in vanilla.

Gez wrote:
Shor son of Shor -- usable I guess, though like other Skyrim-inspiring books it wouldn't really have much reason to be used outside of the Redoran/Nord area.


I am using it as replacement for TR_bk_TravelIll3_PY. I like that book even if I barely understand half of it.

Gez wrote:
Source of Chaos -- hard to see why that would be published


Yeah.

Gez wrote:
The Five Hundred Mighty Companions or Thereabouts of Ysgramor the Returned -- usable I guess, but Skyrimy and injokey. And also your eyes can't help but glaze over the long list of improbable names.


There's way too much inside jokes there IMHO.

Gez wrote:
The Seven Fights of The Aldudagga -- usable


Used.

Gez wrote:
The Song of Return: Skyrim, a Preamble -- maybe? Another Skyrimy stuff.


Would have to look at it closer. Has any amble been written for that preamble? Could be painted as a "work in progress" by one of the map-5 Mages Guilds.

Gez wrote:
The Tsaesci Creation Myth And we ate it to become it -- who would publish that?


I put it ingame as a replacement for TR_bk_Drakehold_NP; I agree an "Editor's Note" or any kind of introduction would improve this one a lot.

Gez wrote:
The Water-getting Girl and the Inverse Tiger -- usable, drop the "part one" thing though since it'd be dumb to have a Part I with no Part II and later.


I used it to replace TR_bk_Boethiahandthebridge. Is it safe to assume there will never be a Part II? Is the book itself free of any references to other parts? Then I could rename it.

Gez wrote:
Tiber Septim’s Sword-Meeting with Cyrus the Restless -- like Vivec & Cyrus's Excellent Adventures, but with less reason to use it since a) it's unfinished and b) it doesn't involve Vivec or another prominent Dunmer


Oh god, more MK cyberpunk. Is it worth reading for someone who does not care about memospores and dreemsleeves? I think this is an important, yet underrated, criterion for inclusion in TR.

Gez wrote:
Vehk's Teaching -- not directly usable as a book, but it could be rewritten into one maybe


It might even be rewritten into several. Is any restricted information in it? At least the description sounds like it should be a protocol of dialogues made *after* the game.

Gez wrote:
What My Beloved Taught Me -- not directly usable as a book, would probably be considered blasphemous by the Temple


For fucks sake, I thought this would be an interview of some Imperial scholar with a Camonna Tong thug until I read the description (weirdly enough I missed it first). Also I don't understand a sentence (OK, in this case this might be an overstatement). Can you explain this one to me? And where is the blasphemy?

Gez wrote:
Where were you when the Dragon Broke? -- longer version of an in-game book; no real reason to use it since it's already in the game


Why not?

Gez wrote:
On the Nords' Lack of a Creation Myth -- usable, Skyrimy


I think with many of these books, we'd need some kind of ingame glossaries to not have players run to the Imperial Library for context.

Gez wrote:
et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer -- doesn't seem like the kind of things that end up being published.


I don't know. What I think is that every time someone uses "zero sum" for something else than the game-theoretical concept, which is as far from nirvana as one can imagine, a kitten^H^Hy is drowned in the Odai. Save the kittens!
Post Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:38 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



arvisrend wrote:
Gez wrote:
The Five Hundred Mighty Companions or Thereabouts of Ysgramor the Returned -- usable I guess, but Skyrimy and injokey. And also your eyes can't help but glaze over the long list of improbable names.


There's way too much inside jokes there IMHO.


What do you both mean by this? There's like 5 names that are actually forum users in there, otherwise its all serious.

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Post Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:51 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gez
Developer Emeritus
22 Jul 2005



arvisrend wrote:

For fucks sake, I thought this would be an interview of some Imperial scholar with a Camonna Tong thug until I read the description (weirdly enough I missed it first). Also I don't understand a sentence (OK, in this case this might be an overstatement). Can you explain this one to me? And where is the blasphemy?

As you say, Vivec is depicted as a Cammona Tong thug. Or a whore. Note that Vivec himself wouldn't mind, but the Temple likes to have some dignity, and having a book where Vivec is a street urchin soliciting a passing warlord has exceedingly little of it.
Post Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:01 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

@Sload: OK, then there are a lots of thing that *look* like inside jokes. The long names, including one starting with "Drummer"; "the Last, whose name cannot even be writ in swift, but you know him"; the "Six Drum quartet"; "Thoom-Sha, the Queen of the Tongues of Men, whose lineage was without end in a language of silent letters and bog-gods that still hide in the moss beneath the previous kalpa and who wore a fake beard everywhere save for bed" and the likes. I don't just mean allusions to specific members; I mean everything that's lost on a reader who hasn't been frequenting places like TIL and bethforums.
Post Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:06 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



Oh, well that's just what Nord stories sound like according to MK.

I don't disagree that it'd be a pretty shitty book to try to read in Morrowind.

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Post Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:10 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



Gez wrote:
Adanorcil wrote:
Some of the Hammerfell-related TR texts, material from Temple Zero (link) and pieces from The Imperial Library's Obscure Texts (link) would work very well for the mod.

Problem is that many of them cannot be justified as books in Morrowind. Some are anachronistic, confidential, or both. (Or sometimes they are just far too Kirkbridey.) What could one do with Sotha Sil's Last Words? Besides putting them in a locked mailbox in Divayth Fyr's sanctum, nothing. Speaking of Divayth Fyr, I don't think we can use Gary Noonan's texts as books either; they're written as letters or diary but why would he publish them?


That's why I said some, as opposed to, you know, all.

Quite a while ago, I already made a selection from the sources mention above there, picking out those that make sense and fit in the game. I also paired them to TR books which Arvis has since replaced, I believe. I don't think the list has made it to this thread, but none of the books you had doubts about are included for mostly the same reasons Gez mentioned. I will update the first post in this thread now, to reflect the changes.


On Nord stories: they are indeed meant to be read that way. They may strike you as funny, but they are serious and in fact a lot of them are quite wondrous ideas. There's really not many in-jokes in there. Most of them are just made up and don't refer to anything pre-existing. You're not missing much at all by not "frequenting TIL or bethforums".

That said, the Song of Return is not a candidate replacer, because, among other reasons, it was written with a very specific purpose in mind and also because it was specifically engineered to be blatantly impossible to read.
Post Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:49 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

Meanwhile I'm done deprecating the books in the Data and putting in the replacements: http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=314638#314638 . Chapters 7 and 8 of the Song of Pelinal have been used to replace TR_bk_WordsMatron_WW and TR_bk_ImMyOwnGrandpa, respectively.

The ESP only adds the new books as objects, with 0 uses so far (I haven't bothered adding them to leveled lists, because I'm unsure about the point of leveled lists of books -- I'd prefer them to be handplaced everywhere). Once this ESP is merged into TR_Data, someone will have to actually replace the references to the old books by the new ones. I guess it's better to do this after M3A8 is merged into Mainland.

And I've added one more suggestion to my wishlist of unicorn ponies.

Let me also move some stuff from that post to here so that it is more visible:

Where do we put The Riches of Darnim? And what name should I give the author of the book?

What about The Uprising in Almalexia? Is that considered finished? What to replace by it?
Post Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:54 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Could we perhaps replace one of our remaining crap books with Interview with a Dunmer? I've always loved the conversational tone of this text, the character of the guy being interviewed, and the way it builds lore from an everyday perspective.

Oh hey, I didn't notice that TR_bk_HuntedVolumeI - TR_bk_HuntedVolumeVI had been replaced already. I sort of felt those books had a "it's so bad it's good" quality to them, but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

Also, TR_bk_CrimesofTri_JC should definitely be replaced rather than repaired. It's impossible to fix a book that was a mistake to begin with. All it is is a crappy version of The Progress of Truth. If you want to place a book in an interior critical of the Tribunal Temple, use The Progress of Truth. It's a perfectly fine book. Not only does this copycat lack all the subtlety of the vanilla text, it reads like a fan-rant against the Tribunal posted on a TES forum.

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Post Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:29 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



The list at the top of this thread has been updated to reflect recent changes.

Quote:

Chapters 7 and 8 of the Song of Pelinal have been used to replace TR_bk_WordsMatron_WW and TR_bk_ImMyOwnGrandpa, respectively.


Thanks.

Quote:
Where do we put The Riches of Darnim? And what name should I give the author of the book?


Probably almost ready. I'll make a post in the thread to ask if it's done. As for what it replaces: I just go through this semi-alphabetically. TR_bk_AssassinsDiary_JC seems like a fine fit.

On authors: unless the author is specifically named, do not mention an author. Under no circumstance shall we be doing "By: Anonymous".

Quote:

What about The Uprising in Almalexia? Is that considered finished? What to replace by it?


I'd like a little polishing, but it can go in as far as I'm concerned. Post coming up there too. Works as a replacer for TR_bk_DawnsDisplacement.


Quote:
Could we perhaps replace one of our remaining crap books with Interview with a Dunmer? I've always loved the conversational tone of this text, the character of the guy being interviewed, and the way it builds lore from an everyday perspective.


I've considered it, but it sounds too much like a fan interview for me to think of it as a book. Straight-up interviews rarely get published as books anyway. Also, it was written so early in Morrowind's development that it makes reference to a few things that don't exist anymore. Normally I'm all up for open references, but in this case (e.g. skylamps) I think they may be a bit grating.


Quote:
Also, TR_bk_CrimesofTri_JC should definitely be replaced rather than repaired. It's impossible to fix a book that was a mistake to begin with. All it is is a crappy version of The Progress of Truth. If you want to place a book in an interior critical of the Tribunal Temple, use The Progress of Truth. It's a perfectly fine book. Not only does this copycat lack all the subtlety of the vanilla text, it reads like a fan-rant against the Tribunal posted on a TES forum.


Purely from the perspective of writing quality, it's definitely above average. I almost liked some parts of it, specifically about how the Tribunal usurped the Daedra. In that light, I could see it working in a reduced form for a Dres audience. That said, I must agree it's awfully vitriolic and having recently replayed the Morrowind mainquest, I feel the Tribunal-critic scene should be entirely underground. Maybe I'll take a look at this book myself later.
Post Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:55 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Lady Nerevar
Developer Emeritus
08 Jun 2004

Location: New Orleans, LA

Picking out a few:

Histories of Strange Pre-Marriage - nope, due to what it who originally written for (and later re-written for).

Water Getting Girl - will be getting a part II at some point in the indefinite future, but don't wait up.

Fragments from the Adabal-a - There's a full version in KotN.

Many-Headed Talos - I'd maybe use it as a springboard (like Heimskr in Skyrim), but not use the actual text as anything.

Tiber Sword Meeting - I like it (but I am biased Razz), but I don't think it's TR material.

My Beloved - while I think it's probably the most important text in a while, the setting of it (a past timeline, a private conversation between an individual who is now dead and one who is now irrevocably changed) doesn't really make sense for inclusion in Morrowind.


Arvisrend: wasn't there some treatise type thing I promised to write up on... daedric ruins or something? It was for a quest. Is that still on the table, and could you point me in its direction? I'll admit that I can't recall what I'd written, but I've got a little time to do things if you still need them.

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Post Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:43 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

Thanks, LadyN! The treatise you had started is in http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=307069#307069 . I don't remember if it was supposed to be a part of a treatise on conjuration, or a treatise on Daedric shrines, but if you want to elaborate in either direction it would be a real blessing to the project -- don't feel pressured, though; what you have made is already great. The comments made in that thread still apply ("prayer" and "adventurers" being two words that look rather inappropriate; "fractal" might use some explanation; etc.).
Post Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:44 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

TR_bk_nobletricks_py belongs on the shitlist. Srsly.
Post Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:29 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Agreed. What a pointless and unproductive snore-fest.
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Post Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:04 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



An Exploration of the Hist Language from the T0. This is really interesting if a bit lengthy for just one book. Maybe split it into 2 or 3 volumes: "Foreword--Huleej", "Uskejej--Silajoleeme, Ap-Zaw, and Ti", and "Asak-Ei--Kru-Bula-Kru".
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Post Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:56 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

It's my favourite of the T0 texts, but formatting it for the game would be a challenge, and I don't think it would work very well if it was split into different volumes. What do other people think?
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Post Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:14 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



The objections gro-Dhal raises are the reasons I didn't include it before.
Post Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:56 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

1) Would using different colors for body text, quote and sections work? Technically, of course, they would; I mean stylistically.

2) Is this really long enough to be necessarily split? Some of the book models are fatter than others.
Post Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:15 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I think it could fit into one book. I seem to recall coming across some pretty long ones in Morrowind, and this one doesn't seem excessively long in comparison. Anyone who wants to read a linguistic text about the Hist language in-game probably won't mind a longer than average book anyway.

Does the CS support Italics? Even if it doesn't, I don't necessarily see formatting as a big enough problem to exclude this text from the book list.

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