[WIP] [Spoilers] Great House Indoril quest line

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[WIP] [Spoilers] Great House Indoril quest line

Post by Why »

Spoilers ahead. Don't read them if you want to experience the story-to-be for yourself once it's released. But please do continue if you want to contribute to its creation. Also do keep in mind that this is a work in progress. I've already thought of stuff that I'll need to properly put into words, but that doesn't mean you can't come up with stuff, too.

Theme
The Indoril questline needs to be about identity - House Indoril is in crisis, and it will need the player to stabilize them. The player needs to behave like a true Indoril noble and champion the ideals of the House. Along the way they should get a taste of the grandiose Dunmeri high culture, as well as explore the limits of the inclusiveness propagated by the House and Temple. Ultimately, when the player needs to decide where their allegiances lie, they choose between what is right and what is easy - defend the old ideals, or submit to the winds of change.

Well. That was cheesy. =|

Contents

Also see House Indoril, practical considerations for NPCing
Last edited by Why on Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:36 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Post by Why »

Premise
"To my sister-brother's city I give the holy protection of House Indoril, whose powers and thrones know no equal under heaven, wherefrom came the Hortator." -Almalexia

House Indoril is the current-day extension of Velothi high culture. They consider themselves leaders among the Dunmer, unwavering in their support of Almsivi and Temple doctrine, closely aligned to Almalexia, stern yet caring and protective. This reflects in their House culture - Indoril follow a traditional system of lords and retainers, where the strong and wealthy shield the weak and poor not unlike medieval feudalism. In contrast to Redoran they emphasize the collective rather than the individual. Their great heroes, Nerevar, Brindisi Dorom, Triffith Sandil, were great politicians, teachers and generals.

Historically the largest and most influential House, Indoril declined in strength after the Armistice, when a great number of its nobles committed suicide, unable to accept Morrowind's new role as a province of the Third Empire. The remainder of the House had a tough time adapting to the new situation, with all sorts of Dukes, Kings, and a host of other Imperial dignitaries being introduced to Morrowind's governmental structure, and the presence of Almsivi ever decreasing. House Hlaalu took the opportunity to settle some old disputes, leading to a great loss of territory for Indoril and the emergence of Hlaalu as a major player in the political arena. Since then, Indoril has managed to stabilize, though it is no longer the undisputed First House.

For the last couple decades Indoril has been under the strong leadership of Grand Ascendant Neril Sevuro, the brother of the Alma Rula and a experienced politician who reconciled the orthodox pacifists in the heartland and the traditional conservatives at the House's territorial borders, managing to muster a firm response to Hlaalu's expansionist policy and championing the House's traditional values. The Sevuro family is loved by the people and respected by their fellow nobles.

Story spoilers start here! Good fortune never seems to last these days though, and once the player starts the Indoril story proper, long-time Grand Ascendant Neril Sevuro, whose health has been deteriorating, dies. His closest allies, the Alma Rula and the Sandil family, are scrambling to suppress this information because if word gets out the people would be greatly distressed and the Hlaalu are sure to take advantage of this, as is their nature.

The issue is bigger than a struggle for who will succeed the Grand Ascendant though. The death of Sevuro iconic for the position of the House - Indoril itself is slowly changing, traditions are dying out, the House is unable to keep up with the times, losing its identity as leaders of the Dunmer. It is up to the player to reverse this decline and lead Indoril back to its former glory, or to try and find a new place in a changing world.
Last edited by Why on Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:33 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Post by Why »

Characters
    Grand Ascendant Neril Sevuro (name change pending), well-liked leader of House Indoril. An irreplaceable figure and talented politician who managed to unite the House, has gained the trust of the other councilors because of his personal charm and firm leadership, and the love of the local populace for his grand acts of charity.

    Alma Rula Brother Sevuro, the brother of the Grand Ascendant. The Alma Rula is the highest mortal executive power in the Tribunal Temple. He still has close ties to the council and often times attends their meetings and acts as adviser.

    Councilman Alveth Sandil is a family man and the current Lord of Gorne, although he lives in Almalexia. He likes to err on the side of caution and is the main voice of reason on the council. He has worked closely with the Sevuro family in House politics. He has a knack for recognising talent and knows what sort of leader Indoril needs. He also knows that he himself is too moderate and reserved to fill the position.

    Councilwoman Ereveri Thalotheran lives on an island-estate in the river Orethan at the base of Mournhold and is the largest landowner among the Indoril nobility (she owns one of the only gold mines in the province, among other things). A close friend of the Sandil family, she has been a big contributor to the Sevuro charities, funding culture and education for the masses.

    Councilman Draler Ilvi, the Lord of Roa Dyr, is the sole councilor keeping watch over the Indoril-Hlaalu border. Reactionary and resolute, he fears Hlaalu forces are at work to take political control of the bridge-town of Almas Thirr and has been pushing the Council to react.

    Councilwoman Meris Denaven is reclusive, preferring the isolation of her estate in the southern Lan Orethan over the busy life in the city. She has good relations with the Dres to the south and is firmly opposed to any direct confrontation with the other Houses.

    Councilwoman Salume Nethril of Nethril Plantation is kindhearted, but also faithful to Temple doctrine and openly resistant to change. She is of particularly high birth and is greatly respected by many Indoril as she is seen as a paragon of the old Indoril virtues.

    Councilman Ienen Salvu is the newest member of the Council. He inherited his title but is not particularly interested in politics. Far removed from the difficulties at the northern and western borders of Indoril territory and the big city he leads an easy life in a manor near Dreynim Spa.

    Councilman Sorvol Tomaril is the senior Councilor. He has served the House well, and with no heirs he has resigned his title of Lord of Akamora, distributed his Akamoran holdings (all the egg mines) among the other nobles and plans on giving up his seat on the Council once the political situation in his former home town has stabilized.

    Minor characters
    General Tavrene Indalas of the fortress of Ayemar keeps watch over the northern border with the Telvanni, and is an ally of Ilvi.
    Velyn and Iverea Drethl are the Lords of Dondril and neighbors and friends of Ilvi.

    Novas Senim currently claims the title of Lord of Akamora. Owns an egg mine and lives atop the big rock.
    Seras Indaren is the main rival to Senim's claim. He also owns an egg mine.
    Telera Parys is another claimant to the title. She also owns an egg mine. And the underground bazaar.

Notes:

The Lord or Lady of a town or region is the noble who owns the land and collects the taxes. They also have a moral obligation to look after their subjects. While a certain degree of status can be derived from these titles and holdings they are not the sole factor determining the pecking order in the House. For instance, while the Farys family is the ranking clan in Bosmora, Gadavyne Farys has little influence beyond the town mainly because of the proximity and status of political heavyweight Councilwoman Meris Denaven. Strict adherence to Temple doctrine and Indoril ideals, and the glory of one's ancestors, have more influence on one's status within the House than one's wealth and holdings do.

Councilor is a hereditary title. When they get too old for their duties as councilor and family patriarch or matriarch, an aging councilor often times retires and passes these titles to their eldest child (read: an older daughter can and will inherit the position over a younger son). Arranged marriages are not uncommon and are the main way a council seat passes from one family to another. Typically a married couple assumes the surname of the most influential of the two, though members of House Indoril can use any of their direct ancestors' family names. If a Councilor has no heirs when they die or retire, or if they for any reason fail to uphold the standards of the House, the Council can reassign their seat with a supermajority vote.
Last edited by Why on Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:41 pm, edited 14 times in total.
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Post by Why »

Prologue: Hireling
This is where we make the player familiar with House Indoril and its holdings. Ideally we send them all over the place during this stage and the next, to all the relevant towns. An incomplete list from memory:

Almalexia
Necrom
Akamora
Sailen
Ayemar
Bisandryon?
Darnim
Dreynim (Spa)
Meralag
Bosmora
Gorne
Seitur
Othrensis
Dondril
Roa Dyr
Almas Thirr

Another important part of this stage should be to engage the player in activities that reflect the culture and current position of House Indoril. Think distributing bread/foodstuff among the poor, doing bureaucracy things in the archives, playing messenger boy in a complicated political exchange, maintaining relationships with the temple, pruning egregious elements that don't fit Indoril's vision of their society. Some foreshadowing of the later big issues will be good, too.

As a general outline, the player will join the Indoril Council House in Almalexia as a hireling. It makes sense that the person hiring them also gives the first few quests for the Almalexia region (Almalexia, Meralag, Dreynim) after which the player is sent to questgivers in other regions (Roa Dyr, Sailen). The player will be of the rank Hireling for the entirety of this stage, which as far as I'm concerned can last for a relatively long time - if people get frustrated because they're not progressing in rank, that's absolutely fine with me. They're a hireling, hired muscle, and mean nothing. Tough shit.

The order in which hireling quests are done does not really matter to me so we might as well make it flexible, but I want the Hireling stage to start with the NPC that hires the player in the service of the House, and end with gaining the trust of the aging Ranalith Sandil in Gorne. Ranalith, blessed with the same ability to recognise a person's potential as his son has, will be the player's way of getting their foot in the door with the Sandil family and towards further promotion within the House.

A personal favorite idea of mine so far is doing paperwork in the archives of the Council Chambers to help a noble out with his genealogy, which is thematically nice but does need to be spiced up somehow.

Apart from those few things, this stage is pretty much a blank slate, within the provided themes. Fantasize away!
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Post by Why »

1: Serving Sandil

After proving their usefulness to Grampa Ranalith Sandil, the player can ask Ranalith to write them a letter of introduction and arrange a meeting with his son and current patriarch of the Sandil family, Alveth, in Almalexia. Upon arriving there the head servant will tell the player Master Sandil is busy/absent but since the player has a recommendation from Ranalith, the head servant will welcome the player into the service of the Sandils. The player becomes their Retainer.

The player goes on to do servant's work within the Sandil political influence sphere, at the orders of the head servant. At some point, I want the player to do something that gains them the respect of Alveth Sandil - for instance, save his youngest son/daughter from Camonna Tong thugs in a shady neighborhood, or something along those lines. Anyway, Sandil finally frees up time to speak to the player, and offers them the rank of Oathman if they swear they will serve House Indoril and House Indoril alone, respect their elders, whatnot. We need someone to write something fancy for this. Essentially, this is the first real step towards being a respected member of the House. The rank of Oathman doesn't do much to differentiate a person from a common retainer, but it does show that a higher-up recognises the person as someone that should be bound to the House on a more permanent basis.

The reason Alveth Sandil was not available earlier is that he was busy containing the news of the death of the Grand Ascendant, and has been in long meetings with the Alma Rula about what to do next. The player's first task assigned to him by Alveth Sandil will be to inform his closest ally, Ereveri Thalotheran, of the Grand Ascendant's demise by delivering a sealed letter - the player can read this to gain some insight in what is happening, but is mostly kept in the dark. Afterwards, tasks for Alveth Sandil include taking care of a number of Alveth's formal affairs (paying a visit to the Temple in his name, maintaining contact with some lesser nobles, acting as an intermediary, etc) to allow Alveth and his allies more time to decide on how to handle the situations and to prepare breaking the news to the public. Some quests from his family members as well as Ereveri Thalotheran's household may also become available. At some point, the death of the Grand Ascendant is made public. Maybe we need to do some sort of burial-quest here, but that could be hard to pull off. Maybe something involving his widow. Maybe a wake in the hall of the Alma Rula palace. I don't know.

With the news broken, Alveth can ease up on the crisis management a bit, as the Council begins the long process of mourning and the rituals leading up to the selection of a temporary head of the assembly, et cetera et cetera. Sandil promotes the player to Lawman. As a Lawman, the player is now a legal member of House Indoril under Temple law. It's mostly customary with little actual effect, but it's a big step towards actual recognition.

More work for Sandil should involve more high-culture and political stuff, but also the more down-to-earth charity and protection of retainers. Other councilors may potentially be offended by being kept in the dark about the Grand Ascendant's death. Retainers of Sandil might need help with something. Along the way the player is promoted to Kinsman - signifying that they are now kin, family, of House Indoril, the lowest rank in true membership, and effectively ending the player's days of servitude.

Ideas: go to the theatre, negotiate political things, play jury(?)/witness/advisor in a trial
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Post by Why »

2: Seyda Vano

By reaching the rank of Kinsman, the player is now free to go his own way in the House. However, for his exceptional service, Sandil will reward the player by directing him towards the owner of the Seyda Vano land deed (or just give it to them if we're lazy). In my mind this was some family living in Almalexia that traces its ancestry back to a noble family in the time when Ebonheart was still one of House Indoril's major holdings, but other ideas are welcome. The player would have to help this family shed some light on their history, or restore their name, something along those lines, after which they'd allow the player to buy the land deed to Seyda Vano.

Owning Seyda Vano should allow the player to build his own Fortress like the vanilla quests, as well as maybe levy some taxes from the two shacks on the island. This is the start of the player's career as the Lord of Seyda Vano. I'd like to keep this quest similar to those in the vanilla game in the ways of progression. The third stage should be reserved to when the player has reached the rank of House Father and be a requirement for continuing with the story (act 4). I like the idea of giving the player the rank of House Cousin once stage 1 of the stronghold has wrapped up. After that, the player should do acts 3a and 3b for further promotions. The ranks of House Cousin, House Brother and House Father should be granted by a representative of Indoril Council, I think.

Quests for this stage are probably rather straightforward - take care of your retainers, solve some local problems, meet your neighbors, recruit some guards, etc. Ideally these quests won't be boring so please suggest ways to spice these up, both in terms of storytelling and in terms of gameplay.
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Post by Why »

3a: Akamora
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3b: Othrensis
Aeven had a neat idea for the town, so let's see where this leads us. I'm excited about the premise of his story, it'll probably need to be adapted in places, I'll work on some details soon, for now, this is what he sent me:

Aeven wrote:In the traditionally Velothi city of Othrensis, a fanatical priest has been causing quite a stir. The city was not too long ago “colonizedâ€Â￾ by Indoril, having been under Temple control for most of its history.

The fanatical priest named Ernethas has called upon the citizens to reject House divisions, Temple corruption and Imperial hegemony and to “restore Resdayn to the days of Velothâ€Â￾, rejecting Indoril control over the town. Many have heeded his call and the Indoril guard have been expelled. Religious militia patrol the streets, and call upon the Dunmer to make Othrensis the model of New Resdayn. Items considered symbol of the Great Houses burnt in the streets, and the lady of the city has turned to serving Ernethas in his divine mission. Her son has fled to appeal to the Indoril Council in Almalexia, pleading them to take action before the fanatic actually manages to unleash havoc across the other Indoril holdings.

When the player is sent to Othrensis with the mission to end the situation of “New Resdaynâ€Â￾, he finds the torched corpses of some unimportant Indoril advisors. A lot of buildings bear graffiti such as “ASVâ€Â￾ and “Resdayn Risesâ€Â￾. Prior to the event, they’ll have told the player of brewing unrest coming from within the local temple, and how their lady is naively sympathetic to this cause. Indoril banners lie torn in the streets (activators?) and the citizens, especially in the Velothi half of the city, have taken to wearing plain robes.

The player has been directed to a home in the Indoril half, where a man loyal to the Indoril and Temple will be able to help the player. The door will be barricaded from the outside, and when the player tries to enter, he’ll hear shouting from the inside. The man tells him he needs assurance of his safety and a sign of loyalty to the Ascendency. After this, a militiaman confronts the player and tells him to relinquish all ties to the Decadency (a term referring to House and Empire) or face the judgment of Almsivi. Obviously, the player refuses, and the militiaman will attack the player (only this one, as the rest do not witness this and remain passive.) The man behind the door will hear this struggle, and be allowed inside.

The man tells you the fanatic you seek is Ernethas, and the only way to bring him to justice is to have his heretical beliefs challenged in Almalexia. The only way to get him there is to smuggle him out of the city at night, just before the next Decadency bonfire. He’ll be alone then, and no guards will be near him.
Simply speaking to Ernethas will be enough to make him follow the player. The player will find him in the Velothi square, and as it turns out there is a young Dunmeri woman by his side, his sworn protector. She will refuse to let you kidnap him, and will put up a fight. If the player deals with her quickly, the militia will not notice.

Ernethas will reluctantly follow the player back to Almalexia, all the while badgering the player about his Decadency, how he can still relinquish his former life and build Resdayn anew. He’ll be equipped with slave bracers, which make him near impossible to kill (killing him fails the quest, as the objective to deal with his heresy, not his execution.)

Once Ernethas has been delivered at the Ordinator prison, the mission will be over for now. At some stage, when the player is councilor, he will be present at the hearing and be asked to offer evidence of said heresy. A scripted execution would be interesting to witness.
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Post by Why »

4: Councilor

This part will include a marriage of convenience to Sandil's youngest son or daughter in order to gain the support of the more conservative councilors who care too much about bloodlines and family names and don't want to see a filthy outlander-blooded Indoril on the council. Fun times. It'll be decent.
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5: Almas Thirr
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Post by Why »

Epilogue: Grand Ascendant
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reserved
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reserved
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reserved
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reserved
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

Reserved...for Not

(HA)

Not Edit: I want to reserve this one.
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Post by Yeti »

Personal favorite ideas of mine so far are doing paperwork in the archives of the Council Chambers to help a noble out with his genealogy, which is thematically nice but does need to be spiced up somehow.


I like this quest idea, especially since I made the Indoril Council Chamber archives such a disorganized mess. It should be challenging. :D
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Post by Haplo »

Yeti wrote:
Personal favorite ideas of mine so far are doing paperwork in the archives of the Council Chambers to help a noble out with his genealogy, which is thematically nice but does need to be spiced up somehow.


I like this quest idea, especially since I made the Indoril Council Chamber archives such a disorganized mess. It should be challenging. :D


Scripted items that move upon completion of a "quest" and/or custom art for certain genealogy research papers?
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Post by Why »

That'd be nice. The main concern I have for a quest like this is how to make it interesting, rather than a look-for-a-specific-needle-in-a-stack-of-needles kind of affair.

edit: how the balls does this thread have 575 views already. WHO ARE YOU, SILENT PEOPLE!?
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Silent person checking in. ^.^
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Your username is totally the best. (And I'll probably archive this frivolity once the real discussion kicks off, by which time you're welcome to participate!)
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Post by rot »

Idea for paperwork task: sorting books/documents
- i.e. scripted so they need to be within close distance of those of the same category and away from other categories, and/or on displays/shelves, etc.

Bit boring but you can sneak in some required expository reading on your Indoril players that way.
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Post by Jule »

Perhaps the player could come across some spicy details while helping with the genealogy. For example, the noble (or maybe some of his ancestors) could turn out to be a bastard child and thus unfit to inherit the title. The player could then withhold this information or use it to blackmail the noble, who would then either help him advance through the ranks OR attack the player OR render further advancement difficult, depending on the players skills and the way he handles the situation.
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Post by arvisrend »

Or pull a Breitbart and let the player inquire into the genealogy of a different noble.
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Post by Jule »

This could very well be a test to see how discreet and loyal the player would be if the competition (for example, the Hlaalu) were to feed him material which could potentially harm their reputation. Then again, it could also NOT be a test, and if you tell the noble what you found out you're properly fucked. Who knows? The world's full of options.

EDIT: Another thought. You could also do the same as Bethesda did for the Hlaalu-Telvanni conflict in one of the Velothi towers (was it Odirniran?), where you'll have to choose a side, depending on which house you belong to. This low-level Indoril quest could have a mid-level or high-level Hlaalu counterpart, where you would secretly have to muck up the genealogy of an Indoril noble by placing forged documents in the Indoril archive or bring up pre-existing but well hidden evidence of the aforementioned noble's questionable heritage.

This could also be a chance to give the theatre in Almalexia a deeper purpose, something Why suggested a while ago in our IRC channel. Perhaps the exact reason why the noblemer wants to research his genealogy is because he is writing a play based on the virtuous and heroic exploits of his ancestors. He intends the play to be grandiose and a clear sign of his opulence (nothing unusual, as many an ambitious, young Indoril noblemer had done the same in the past to gather public support, thus boosting his career). Whether he really is a bastard child or not is irrelevant. It would be sufficient to say that his father was one of those to commit suicide after the Armistice was signed. Let's just presume some people are saying that this happened a bit too long before his son was born; an inconvenient truth that could cost him his position in the Indoril hierarchy. Let's say the player finds some evidence that could back up those rumors while searching through the archives. Now, I see a few ways this could end.

1. Either the player tells the noblemer what he found out, in which case the noblemer gets pissed and does everything to make the player's ascent to the higher ranks of House Indoril as difficult as possible (though there's not much he can do to prevent this altogether, since the player now has something with which he can control this particular mer), or
2. the player goes over the noblemer's head to a higher ranking-Indoril, who commends him on his dedication to preserve the reputation of House Indoril, or
3. the player keeps his mouth shut, in which case the fiasco goes public only after the play has already been seen by half of Almalexia (much to the delight of house Hlaalu, of course), or
4. the player goes to house Hlaalu, leading to his expulsion from House Indoril, but opening new doors for him in House Hlaalu.

Obviously, choosing option 1 would give the player a rough start in the house (questwise), but it wouldn't affect high-rank quests. Choosing option 2 would give the player an easier start quest-wise, but wouldn't affect the later stages of advancement in the house ranks. Option 3 wouldn't have any effect on the difficulty of early quests; only when the scandal goes public will the player be reprimanded by higher-ranking Indoril nobles (possibly councilors) because he hadn't done more to stop this disaster from happening in the first place. This would affect only the later stages of the quest-line, when the player will have to deal with the councilors and the elite of Indoril society.
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Post by Theo »

Another random idea for brainstorming:
Perhaps at a certain stage of the quest player will be asked to seek leader of some "good" daedra cult and negotiate an alliance. There will be some controversy among the councilors in this quest as some detest daedra worship as legal, admissible, but backwards.
Depending on players choices the daedra cult would join the cause of the Indoril or oppose it and certain NPCs would take different courses of action later in the quest.
Please include choices with multiple outcomes and characted development.
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Post by Rats »

A quest idea for an early stage of the storyline to make the player familiar with some of the Indoril towns. The Grand Ascendant has just died -- unbeknownst to the player. The player is given a sealed message to deliver to some of the Councilors informing them of the G.A.'s demise. The player is instructed to give the message directly to the given Councilor and no one else; the quest is above all a test of loyalty. Right after this the player is approached by a shady Hlaalu agent who offers the player a hefty sum for selling the letter. Selling it will result in expulsion from Indoril and make the Councilors hate the player -- but will gain favor with the Hlaalu. Refusing to sell the message will cause the agent to say that they will gladly take it from the player's dead body and attack. A couple of hostile Hlaalu agents will also be placed to guard the entry points to the towns where the Councilors live.

Of course, the player can also break the seal and learn of the whole situation prematurely. This will cause a disposition drop, if the Councilor receiving the letter notices it.

Also, a humble suggestion for renaming the Sevuro brothers:
Rats's brain wrote:Grand Ascendant Hloryn Ulvedri & Alma Rula Rother Ulvedri


edit: oh, and also, a quest where the player would have to pose as the late Grand Ascendant in public to temporarily quench the rumors of his death would be amusing.
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Post by Duruza »

While this plotline isn't all that similar to what I would have done given the opportunity, I can say confidently that I love the direction you've outlined Why. I don't have a lot more to contribute at the minute, but I was just browsing and was compelled to voice my deep satisfaction reading this thread. Keep up the good work, and I hope to be able to play (and possibly LP - although that is more of a goal than a plan at the moment) this out one day (and maybe help in its realisation, time willing).
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Post by Exovian »

Just gave everything a read, and it's looking great! I love the depth, all the politics and intrigue... It's one of the aspects of Morrowind's culture that's never been fully explored in the games, and it's exciting to see it start to happen.
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Post by arvisrend »

I just had a ridiculous quest idea. Some Indoril noble has been known to treat his slaves too well (which, in Morrowind, may mean as much as avoiding group punishment or not beating them up for the lulz). The Camonna Tong got worried about this catching on, so they decided to teach him a lesson and make some money in the process. They raided the manor and stole the slaves, which are now held hostage somewhere in a cave in Heartland (Armun Ashlands sounds like a badass enough place). The Indoril send the player first to do recon, then either to free the slaves by force or to deliver the ransom. Alternatively, House Hlaalu is worried that the Indoril might get a legit reason to send troops into their lands, and charge the player with either freeing the slaves or negotiating with the Tong (bonus: while telling the Tong that they're sending in a substitute slave). Is this too much over the top? Note that this clearly shouldn't be an earlygame quest for either house, but probably not too late either.

BTW did we drop the idea of having a relatively moderate Indoril noble (one who studied in Cyrodiil in his youth and maybe was in some of the Guilds) serving as a mentor for the player and as a contact in the MG-vs.-Indoril crisis?
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Gnomey
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Post by Gnomey »

That noble sounds like Alveth Sandil.

In reply to Jule's post, I'd think the player would not be able to become an actual member of House Hlaalu after having been a member of House Indoril, even if he had gotten expelled. That is, unless Houses operate differently in the mainland from how they did in Vvardenfell.
Unless you meant that the player would be able to do some quests for/receive services from Hlaalu without being an official member, which might be interesting; the player could be a sort of mercenary/agent.
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Post by Yeti »

I think arvisrend meant that this quest could be given by either House Indoril or House Hlaalu depending on which of them the player is in.
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Post by Rats »

I really like arvisrend's idea. Actually I had something similar in mind whilst NPCing this place, though I had a notion that it would be the anti-Imperial Indoril backing up the anti-Imperial Tong to stage a coup on the outlander-friendly Hlaalu councilman of the plantation. I also really like the idea that some of the Hlaalu and Indoril quests would go hand in hand, the objective depending on the player's side of choosing.
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Post by Gnomey »

Yeti wrote:I think arvisrend meant that this quest could be given by either House Indoril or House Hlaalu depending on which of them the player is in.


Yes, that's what it sounds like in arvisrend's idea. In that quest it could be interesting if the player were even able to get help from the other House, as they have the same objectives. It could be a way of finishing the quest that slightly improves the political situation.

I was replying to Jule's post in which the Houses have opposing objectives and the player is a member of House Indoril.
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Post by gro-Dhal »

arvisrend wrote:Some Indoril noble has been known to treat his slaves too well (which, in Morrowind, may mean as much as avoiding group punishment or not beating them up for the lulz). The Camonna Tong got worried about this catching on, so they decided to teach him a lesson and make some money in the process.


None of this really rings true to me. Maybe if this noble was an abolitionist and had freed all their slaves, IDK
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Post by Yeti »

gro-Dhal has a point. The Camonna Tong might be xenophobic thugs, but I doubt their hatred for beastfolk would lead them to harass nobles who treat their slaves well. As long as the beastfolk are kept in chains, the Camonna Tong could probably care less about how they're treated. I could definitely see them going after an abolitionist noble, though.

This reminds me that we should probably get around to finalizing the composition of the House Hlaalu council. We're already npcing Hlaalu areas, after all. Perhaps we can have one of the councilors be a Twin Lamps supporter? At least one or two of them should be non-Dunmer, at least, and I'd like to see one be very religious for variety.

What I would like to see is some quests that move away from the vanilla idea that Camonna Tong = House Hlaalu. They're a province-wide criminal syndicate, and should have ties with the other Great Houses as well, especially the Indoril and Dres, who share their anti-foreigner views. Even if House Indoril wouldn't support the Camonna Tong's criminal actions officially, I can see a few of the lower-ranking nobles dealing with them in order to counteract Imperial interests. Perhaps an Indoril merchant could have Tong thugs on the payroll harassing and extorting outlander businesses in an area of Almalexia?
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Post by rot »

Or the Tong could just suspect a noble of being an abolitionist, but high-profile enough to justify keeping slaves as a cover story (regardless of whether it's true or not - not makes for more interesting plot I'd say). Reverse Jefferson?
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Post by arvisrend »

gro-Dhal wrote:Maybe if this noble was an abolitionist and had freed all their slaves, IDK


OK; but would an Indoril noble ever do such a thing? A Hlaalu one could, though, and that might make a map4-internal quest.

Yeti wrote:gro-Dhal has a point. The Camonna Tong might be xenophobic thugs, but I doubt their hatred for beastfolk would lead them to harass nobles who treat their slaves well.


Not hatred! It's plain logic. If abolitionists gain a foothold in the Houses, the slave market will go down.

Yeti wrote:What I would like to see is some quests that move away from the vanilla idea that Camonna Tong = House Hlaalu. They're a province-wide criminal syndicate, and should have ties with the other Great Houses as well, especially the Indoril and Dres, who share their anti-foreigner views. Even if House Indoril wouldn't support the Camonna Tong's criminal actions officially, I can see a few of the lower-ranking nobles dealing with them in order to counteract Imperial interests. Perhaps an Indoril merchant could have Tong thugs on the payroll harassing and extorting outlander businesses in an area of Almalexia?


That's a good point, and I'd like to have people brainstorm on it (people more knowledgeable than I am). I am not sure if anti-foreigner views should be considered the main pillar of the Camonna Tong; after all, they are as close as it gets to a mafia in an RPG, and a mafia is first and foremost interested in its own wealth and power (they can even hire beastfolk for the occasional ugly job -- it fits with their belief that beastfolk are criminal no-goods, and nobody will believe a Khajiit claiming he was hired by the Camonna Tong of all things).

Would Indoril ever cooperate with the Tong? I feel their worldviews differ too much (not as much about foreigners as about ethics), even if they might pragmatically benefit from each other's actions.

Dres probably do cooperate with the Tong, but I'm not really interested in the Dres until (say) Heartland is finished. Sorry guise, just too much to keep up with.

rot wrote:Or the Tong could just suspect a noble of being an abolitionist, but high-profile enough to justify keeping slaves as a cover story (regardless of whether it's true or not - not makes for more interesting plot I'd say). Reverse Jefferson?


That's also a good idea. The Tong might be overvaluing the damage caused to them by this noble's example.
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Post by Why »

Bumpity bump. I wrote and edited stuff. Wrote a crappy Theme thingy, removed all rank progression from the Hireling stage, wrote Serving Sandil and Seyda Vano things. Please disagree with me and discuss how bad I suck at writing in the comments below.
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Post by Gnomey »

Something to remember with the Camonna Tong and Indoril noble abolitionists and such is that every NPC is a character. There might be Imperials keeping slaves in Morrowind because they can, a Camonna Tong member who secretly frees slaves and feeds them sugar and an Indoril noble who hates all the Tribunal stand for.
The important point is how they are treated by their peers. The above examples are all workable, but only if the people described were to be ostracized by their faction/community as soon as their quirks become public.
Having NPCs in a faction behave differently from how you would expect, such as a pious Indoril making deals with a seedy criminal organization, is often a good thing. It just needs to be made clear that they are an exception.

I think getting some limited Camonna Tong activity in House Indoril would be an interesting idea, because you'd expect them to be involved on the other side of the Indoril-Hlaalu conflict. I'd imagine they'd have a bigger role with the Dres, though, given their business focus.

Edit: having read the theme text, the Camonna Tong might work well there, too, along with Akamora in-fighting. Sounds like a fittingly corrupting influence.
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