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Dragon32
Member
06 Apr 2008



klep wrote:
<snip>
Advancement:
"You must show more piety before you can advance any further"

"You have shown enough piety to take the rank of X"

Piety:
"Speak with Indoril X if you seek piety"

To be honest I'm not yet totally convinced of it myself, but the word popped up in my mind so I thought I'd share.

That does make it sound like a stat though, like you've levelled up in a hidden attribute called Piety
Post Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:16 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Two random ideas for Indoril naming conventions I kept forgetting to toss out. Even as the person suggesting them I'm of mixed opinions about them, but thought they might be worth considering:

Indoril do not use minor House names except perhaps in a rare few special cases. This is to stress the unity of the House. You have Indoril Draler, Indoril Ienen, Indoril Ienen and Indoril Alveth. Obviously it would sometimes be hard to differentiate them that way, such as in the case of Indoril Ienen and Indoril Ienen, but that's where personal titles would come in, perhaps something like Indoril Ienen of Thirty-Four (Corners) and Indoril Ienen of Thirty (Corners).

When an Indoril becomes the lord of a castle-estate, the Indoril adopts the name of the 'original' (the most famous) lord of the estate; so one might expect an Indoril Llothis and Indoril Olms to be the inhabitants of two castle-estates. Mostly inspired by how real-world nobles are often just called by their titles (eg. the Duke of York), repetitive naming conventions of many monarchies (such as all of the Prussian monarchs being called either Frederick, William or Frederick-William without exception), and the common practice of monarchs to adopt reigning titles; often the names of successful past monarchs. These nobles would specifically not have personal titles. The main intent is to show that the lord is willing to forgo all independence to fully serve the House.
Post Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:17 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Ironed Maidens
Developer
23 Feb 2008



Gnomey wrote:

When an Indoril becomes the lord of a castle-estate, the Indoril adopts the name of the 'original' (the most famous) lord of the estate; so one might expect an Indoril Llothis and Indoril Olms to be the inhabitants of two castle-estates. Mostly inspired by how real-world nobles are often just called by their titles (eg. the Duke of York), repetitive naming conventions of many monarchies (such as all of the Prussian monarchs being called either Frederick, William or Frederick-William without exception), and the common practice of monarchs to adopt reigning titles; often the names of successful past monarchs. These nobles would specifically not have personal titles. The main intent is to show that the lord is willing to forgo all independence to fully serve the House.



Not a fan of this.

1. The Indoril would not like the convention of a type of 'assimilation' of either a Llothis or Olms or Delyn, or anything like that. It seems very out of context.

2. I wouldn't imagine to see many saints or patron-saints of the Tribunal who would have taken residence of any estate. At least not a lot of the earlier ones, who belonged to much more minor houses. So it seems like a moot point.

3. It would make more sense of have a type of naming convention that mirrors either 'anon' or 'upon' or 'of the' for this type of idea. As in Indoril Llarer Upon Olms, or, Indoril Llarer of the Llothis-as-Stasis. Something to denote they reside somewhere of importance, but I think the Indoril would not be amused by the idea of someone taking on the name of a patriarch or saint of the temple.
Post Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:50 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

I fully agree with Ironed Maidens. Furthermore I think the Indoril would name their children with holy reasons and would not want these names to be replaced with other names.

I don't think I really understand your other idea with the numbers, Gnomey.
Post Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:33 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
st.Veloth, The Repenting
Member
28 Feb 2015

Location: toronto

can house indoril have massive velothi cathedrals?
i want to see dunmer stain glass windows

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- sotha sil
Post Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:39 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
NathanJ
Member
30 Aug 2015



Its like if the first king of a country is called Henry and some other Henry comes after him, they call him Henry II - I understand it like that..
And id say stain glass windows are more the domain of the imperial. So a cathedral would cut a good figure in old ebonheart I guess.
edit: Someone in the provine of cyrodiil project already designed stain glass windows with pictures of the nine divines, but i have forgotten who exactly

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Post Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:12 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Weren't we simply going to follow Sload's "House name, Personal name, family name" scheme? Indoril Draler Ilvi, Indoril Envyn Sothil, Indoril Neril Dorom - and so on and so forth?
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Post Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:27 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Yeti wrote:
Weren't we simply going to follow Sload's "House name, Personal name, family name" scheme? Indoril Draler Ilvi, Indoril Envyn Sothil, Indoril Neril Dorom - and so on and so forth?
My preference goes out to this.
Post Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:46 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Anonytroll
Website Administrator
12 Aug 2005



That is canon, it's from David Goodall I think. He gave Serjo Indoril Nerevar Mora as the example of how it works - title, house, personal name, family name.
Post Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:45 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
st.Veloth, The Repenting
Member
28 Feb 2015

Location: toronto

are velothi temples still the center of most outposts? is "indoril architecture" from tribunal still being used for indoril establishments? are we using the shogun based theocratic government? or just a standard feudal one. are house indoril, and the temple the same thing?

and what of house dres, and their daedra worship? how will this be reflected in relations with house indoril?

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almsivi bless, to create one must first destroy, the nature of all, is in equilibrium
- sotha sil
Post Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:33 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Temples in the Velothi style tileset are not exactly the center of any place. They are placed slightly separated from settlements.

The Indoril tileset from Tribunal is used for Indoril Estates. Other settlements in Indoril lands will be in the Velothi tileset.

I recommend you check out the government section in the Indoril Master Planning as it described there in quite some detail.
Post Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:44 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
st.Veloth, The Repenting
Member
28 Feb 2015

Location: toronto

take a look at the gnisis concept art, that in my opinion is the perfect velothi settlement, as it has a kwamma mine, a temple, and a water source
_________________
almsivi bless, to create one must first destroy, the nature of all, is in equilibrium
- sotha sil
Post Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:38 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

The naming ideas were rather incomplete thoughts, but the replies have (hopefully) helped me formulate them a bit better:

Yes, the established naming convention of House Indoril is GreatHouse PersonalName MinorHouse. I'm calling that convention into question, as I'm not sure if it is the best fit for House Indoril as we are now characterizing it.

I think a defining feature of House Indoril is its sense of unity; it tries to be strong through standing united, and in turn make Morrowind strong through standing united. All Indoril, and all Dunmer, are but a part of a great movement. The Indoril represent the pinnacle of that movement; those born to lead it.
I feel as though maintaining minor House names is a little at odds with that unity; rather than being simply Alveth of the governing House, or Indoril Alveth, you are Alveth of the governing House and clan Sandil, or Indoril Alveth Sandil.
To me, that implies internal division; you have your Sandils and your Ilvis and so on and so forth.
Now granted, in some places that might work; some Indoril might cling on to particular ancestor spirits to the detriment of their great mission, such as the nobles around Akamora. But such practices would represent weaknesses in House Indoril. Indoril Nerevar Mora was a Chimer figure from a wilder time when the people of Morrowind had not yet found the Tribunal. Indoril Nerevar is a hero of Tribunal Morrowind, greatest of his House save only for his queen, first champion of the Tribunal, ancestor of all Indoril.

Rather, I see Indoril abandoning clan names, all clans within Indoril having been incorporated into that House, and instead adopting titles. Maybe the titles would be like devotional names, likely referring to some honoured ancestor of House Indoril as a whole. Maybe they would refer to some accomplishment, whether military, literary, legal, scholarly... of the individual. As I was in an unoriginal mood, I just glanced at Swiftoak's doc and lifted the enigmatic-by-design 'so-and-so-many corners' references from it.

So much for that. As for chapel-lords assuming the names of ancestors, it would be an assimilation in a way, yes; one which would neither devalue the current Indoril nor the ancestor. House Indoril doesn't wax or wane in power, it just is. The chapel-lords do not wax and wane in power, they just are. As such, establishing a symbolic constant seems like a good idea, and naturally -- the dishonest side of the Indoril -- they would pick the finest chapel-lord of the chapel as the measuring stick all other lords would naturally measure up to.
Roa Dyr has always overlooked the Thirr River Valley and always will. Its lord is always Draler (or whoever) and always has been. There can be no threat to it or him, for that is determined.
It's like Caesar being adopted as the title of Roman emperors and later emperors; the Czars and Kaisers. It would not actually replace the original name, but it would generally be used instead of the original name. Again, like the Duke of York is the Duke of York. The in-game NPC would be called, for example, Indoril Llothis. The White Book would call him Muther-sil Indoril Llothis, Serjo Indoril Draler so-on-and-so-forth. Most dialogue would call him Indoril Llothis, some might call him Indoril Draler. Same for literature.

As for saints taking up residence in chapels, I agree to an extent that the idea is dubious, but I'd think the Indoril would ret-con it in anyway. The Indoril are leaders of the Dunmer, so naturally the early leaders of the Temple, who built Tribunal society, must have been Indoril.
As leaders of the Indoril in its formative years, the leaders of the Temple must have guided that formation from the chapels. Ergo, the great Temple leaders must have been chapel-lords.
Olms and Llothis were chapel-lords of the Indoril just like the five great Houses coexisted with House Dagoth and House Dwemer and the Tribunal always had been gods.

So what I'm proposing:
Indoril PersonalName FancyTitle or Indoril AncestorName of House Indoril
PersonalName MinorHouse of House Hlaalu, Redoran and Telvanni
MinorHouse PersonalName of House Dres
GreatHouse PersonalName MinorHouse as old-fashioned, mostly appearing in history books and the like

To reply to other things discussed:
-I do think temples should always form the core of Velothi settlements, or shrines of some sort in the case of very small settlements. That's how I designed Vhul and Felms Ithul.
-MH architecture is still being used for Indoril settlements, (ie. chapels and Almalexia), but no Indoril settlements are currently being worked on, and I think we need to put more thought into how we use the MH set.
-the Shogunate question is hard to answer; it's more similar to the one in one case, more similar to the other in another.
-the Indoril and Temple are different. Putting it very simply, from an Indoril point of view, the Temple establishes law and the Indoril interpret it.
-the Indoril will not hold House Dres' practices against it, partly because they are dependent on House Dres, like the rest of Morrowind. House Dres makes a show of incorporating Temple canon, and that's that.
Post Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:47 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Ironed Maidens
Developer
23 Feb 2008



I think it's just too convoluted and too confusing. There are better ways to embody the characterization of the Indoril. I think the name of an NPC is just the name of an NPC. Their dialogue and how other NPCs feel about them and how we build the home and what quests they offer or are involved in is what should define them. Not the naming convention.
Post Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:41 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I think the reasoning is convoluted, but I don't really see it being convoluted in practice. No more than any other naming convention in TES.

Again, Indoril names would just be Indoril PersonalName with an optional FancyTitle, as opposed to Indoril PersonalName MinorHouse.
Nord names are PersonalName with an optional FancyTitle. Not really any less complex.
Indoril chapel-lords would have the above name, but would generally be referred to as the traditional chapel-lord of that estate rather than by their own names; in practice, Indoril PersonalName as above. The personal name in question is simply not their own.

Indoril Llothis
Indoril Draler something

Of course, if we don't want to characterize through naming, we could just go with PersonalName Family; Draler Ilvi, Ushug Gurub, Basha McKittens or however a Khajiiti surname would look. Yngling Simmons or however a Nordic surname would look.

TES characterizes through naming conventions, and I can't see the Indoril using the same names as everyone else. The question is, what sort of names should they use?

Sload's original reasoning for Indoril all having 'Indoril' before their names (in the .pdf here from June 05, 2014) was:
Sload wrote:
Their names are given in the old style: House, Personal, Family; since all of them are Indoril, that means that all of their names are prefixed "Indoril," almost as if it is some sort of title
I'm merely trying to continue that train of thought a little. Having Indoril as a sort of title makes sense to me, Indoril clinging on to the old style of naming does not.
Post Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:54 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I've mulled over the opinions here, and I can see how Gnomey's name scheme would reaffirm the collective nature of Indoril society. At the same time, it would basically spell out that the Indoril place little value on their immediate family and kinship bonds - we'd have to tread carefully with that. We definitely shouldn't give Chapel lords two commonly used names - that would merely confuse players. Either use the personal name or the founding lord's name. Or perhaps Chapel lords could combine them - Indoril Llothis-Draler for example. At the very least. it would help set them apart as particularly special compared to other Indoril.
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Post Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:13 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I'd specifically want to emphasize how closely related Indoril families are. They greatly value their ancestors, but their ancestors are ancestors of House Indoril as a whole, not just of individual clans within House Indoril. The clans that were incorporated into House Indoril were intentionally intermarried and melded together to the extent that individual ancestries ceased to be discernible. Essentially, Indoril marriages are typically not between Indoril families, which generally exist only as nebulous concepts as sort of 'branch families' if that, they are within the Indoril family.
But as I said, in some places Indoril may have clung more closely on to the concept of individual families and ancestries, especially where there is rivalry within the House, as is planned to be the case around Akamora. Those Indoril might maintain a clan name and engage in limited ancestral one-upmanship with each other. A lot of that would probably just be posturing, though, as they'd still be closely related; there would be heavy overlap between their 'individual' clan ancestries, rival clans likely trying to solidify their claim to specific ancestors even though the other families are just as closely related to said ancestors.

If we went with one name, I'd personally prefer the founding lord's name, aside from the reasons I outlined in past posts simply because I think it's stranger and more interesting. That being said, I think it's mainly a question of how much we use the secondary name and where; we have "Mother Laesa" as the obsolete Dunmer form of Almalexia and "Dagoth Voryn" as the original name of "Dagoth Ur", along with "Sharmat" as a title, and any number of other names, but references of these would generally be so obscure that I think any confusion would actually be of the positive variety -- people already interested in Lore finding a tidbit of information that adds colour to the world -- as opposed to the negative variety of simply confusing players.
As a concrete example, Ilvi might generally be referred to as Indoril Llothis in-game. In the White Book and one or two other cases, his two names might be given together; Muther-sil Indoril Lothis Serjo Draler, [...], or something to that effect, which would retain his in-game name front and center, and then add his original name along with the other fluff that forms his over-long formal address. I don't think that would confuse players; they might wonder why he has two perfectly good names, but it would be clear that they're not two separate Indoril lords or something.
Then, possibly, in specific texts, as an easy example a text dating from before Ilvi became lord of Roa Dyr, he might be referred to only by his secondary name, but the player would have to search to find such references and should then be equipped to puzzle things out. Especially with the help of sources like the White Book which give both names.

Moving away for a moment from the question of Indoril names, another idea I've had for a while but probably never mentioned, (or at best is hidden in some obscure IRC log somewhere), is that Indoril chapel-lords should have a Daedric Face of Terror helm in much the same way Redoran councilors have Redoran Master Helms.
In general, while I do think as many here do that Daedric armour should remain rare, I do think it should have a limited presence in House Indoril and the Temple, mainly just the helms as indicated by the linked concept.
For one thing, that would establish an interesting sort of monopoly on Daedric items which the concept seems to imply and I think is worth exploring, for another I think it provides an additional means of exploring acceptance of Daedra within Tribunal society beyond the simplistic view of Tribunal good Daedra bad, which will also aid us in presenting the complex relationship between House Indoril, House Dres and the Temple, as well as adding complexity to the Temple itself.
Finally, I think the concept of masks displaying Indoril Nerevar's different aspects, which didn't quite make it into the original game, is worth picking up and elaborating on; the Ordinator masks including our Ordinators in Mourning, the Daedric Face of Terror, and possibly others which have slipped my mind.
Post Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:48 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Kevaar
Member
25 Sep 2003

Location: Colorado, USA

(Okay, done editing, I promise!)

Hm. Reading through the Indoril Master Plan and it occurs to me that the best of Indoril could be comparable to Christian philosophers (Kant, Aquinas, Locke, etc). Like Christians and philosophers in the real world though, as times change, the Indoril has started to split more and more into the liberal logic-valuing folks (who perhaps are warming up to the Empire's ideas and research, if not the Empire itself--may also be losing some faith in the Temple) and the dogmatic religious sorts that thump their Tribunal bibles.

I saw that the Indoril main plot was in need of some ideas for the last bit, and I was thinking perhaps something like a coup? A group of extremist young Indorils are trying to bring sweeping change to the House. (I'm not sure if they would be of the more religious group or the more rational group--arguments could be made for either!) They think that Indoril is not what it should be, and should be returned to it's former glory--unfortunately, their ideas of what that glory is has become corrupted and ain't too pleasant. They are not connected to the earlier Hlaalu attacks, though like to CLAIM they were the ones behind the assassination.

Then, perhaps as a twist towards the very end, it's a revealed one of the Bad Daedra was having fun pitting everyone against each other to spite the Tribunal, and the assassination was caused by one of their worshippers who had infiltrated the Great House. While the Daedra didn't "cause" the split beyond a few well-placed pokes, they have been exploiting it in the present. It would be an example of how the House of Troubles got that name. After the player is instrumental in defeating the Daedra, Indoril is left to pick up the pieces and figure out what of the revolution's ideas they want to keep--or do they want to just burn it all and forget anything of the sort ever happened... Assumably, this is when the player would be rewarded the top rank, as the Indoril need someone of the PC's obvious strength to pull the House together during this difficult time.

And a related quest idea:
--The player gets to judge how a Indoril extremist prisoner is to be sentenced, and/or play a role in whatever Indorils use as their court system. The player is given this right either because it's a duty of rank, or they were one of the victims of the Indoril extremist in the first place (whatever is more fitting). Player can choose to be merciful and hence gain an ally, or put them to death.

Also, Dunmer stained glass--well, Morrowind DOES have a ton of glass, but unfortunately it only seems to come in the color green... Very Happy
Post Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:10 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
theStormWeaver
Member
08 Sep 2014



Hello! I've been paying attention to this project for a very long time, even if I've hardly ever posted. Discussions like these are what make me love TR and have high hopes for the experience it will create when complete.

I'd like to chime in on the, now nearly 3 year old, discussion of the Indoril quest line.

I think Sload's general outline is amazing. I think that the assassin should be Ilvi's majordormo (as Sload suggested in another post). The motivation would not be his own gain, but to further the position of his lord. The majordormo is fiercely loyal to Ilvi and believes he would be the perfect Grand Ascendant to restore Indoril to it's righteous past. Ilvi is too honorable a mer to be involved in the sordid affair, so the majordormo protects him by taking care of it himself. It would make the most sense if he was aware of Dorom's death, since that is what really open's up Ilvi's path to the Grand Ascendancy.

Discovering that his own second had been involved in something as dishonorable as using the Dark Brotherhood to assassinate a fellow Indoril and wrongfully frame the Hlaalu would shame Ilvi enough that he would feel obligated to step down in favor of the player (showing that he is the honorable mer that the second believed in the whole time).

I think it would be cool if the betrothed served a valuable purpose, rather than being essentially a trophy. At the least, they could be the quest giver for improvements to the stronghold. Perhaps they would manage the estate in your absence, letting you know of problems in your lands that you can solve? Like the Hlaalu quest to kill bandits plaguing your territory. Or maybe resolve a dispute among your serfs.
Post Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:54 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

At this point thinking of ways to expand the role of the marriage partner isn't too hard; as discussed in this thread, Indoril marriage partners could be political entities in their own right, who would continue to attend to the affairs of their parental household. Naturally, the successes or failures of the one partner's household would reflect on the other, even more so for the PC who has no personal household status to rely on, at least until the whole Nerevarine thing gets out, and so for the most part relies completely on the status of the marriage partner's household. (As Nerevar himself did, marrying into Indoril Laesa's clan before it came out that he had stolen and assumed the banners of House Mora, by which time House Indoril was tied to him and was forced to back him to protect their own reputation).
Now there's a pretty solid basis for the partner's household falling on hard times, what with the death of the head of the household, Alveth Sandil. It is unlikely the partner would take over the household directly of course, as I doubt Sandil would have thrown his household's lot in with the PC so completely as to directly marry his heir to the PC. Still, the PC's partner would probably be pulled in, at the very least as an adviser, and could in turn pull the PC in as well.
I think the dynamic could be interesting as well; the PC would basically be providing support for the partner. There's a lot of room for interpretation and roll-playing as to why the player provides the support; whether out of self-interest, genuine concern, a sense of duty, perhaps to the late Alveth... It would also provide a really direct route to explore the inner workings of an Indoril household, which could potentially be fascinating.

Also, Kevaar, I'd thought I'd replied to your post but apparently I hadn't.
I'm not sure if I like the idea of some Indoril warming up to Imperial ideas; I still like the concept that the main failing of House Indoril is its total lack of ability to comprehend and react to foreign ideas, especially ideas which seem more powerful than the Tribunal and thereby call the Laws Determined, the whole Indoril worldview, into question. The Indoril base their whole outlook on the assumption that the world revolves around the Tribunal and them, and the Empire calls all of that into question by its mere existence.
I actually almost see things the other way around: the old-school Indoril attitude is to basically try to ignore the existence of the Empire, basically covering ones ears and going 'lalala I can't hear you'. The newer movement would be to recognize the Empire as, essentially, a disease, an aberration, which needs to be purged. At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, one could draw a parallel to the Nazi concept of 'Weltanschauungskrieg', literally 'worldview war'; basically of a clash of worldviews that can only be resolved through completely removing one of the worldviews. (Historically referring to Communism). That reaction, however, born from a desire to protect Tribunal society and the Indoril worldview, would directly go against the actions of the Tribunal, or at any rate Vivec, who specifically signed the Armistice to avoid fighting the Empire because he knew it would be a losing battle, or at least come with far greater losses than it would be worth.
In general, there are quite a few ideas one could probably mine from German history, as it's not very hard to draw some -- albeit limited -- parallels between the collapse of the German Empire and the society that came with it and the collapse of Tribunal society. You've also got the Dolchsto├člegende, for instance, or stab-in-the-back myth, that Germany would have won the First World War (Tiber's threatened invasion) if they hadn't been stabbed in the back by German anti-monarchists (the Hlaalu, who could be said to be anti-Indoril).
I could also see a more live-and-let-live movement among the Indoril who basically equate the Empire with the more familiar concept of the House of Troubles; a nagging subversive force that cannot be removed but that one can learn to live with and work around. While they would not have as directly destructive an influence as the other movement, they would still in the end be no better at stopping the creeping corruption of Tribunal society, and would at best only help it last a little longer than it otherwise would have.

As to your plot ideas, I think they could work, but that the focus should be different. A group of young extremists or even Daedra would not be able to shake Tribunal society. If so, it would not have lasted 4000 years.
Rather, Indoril society has been slowly, imperceptibly rotting away due to inherent flaws in Tribunal society, and in the Tribunal; the Tribunal and Tribunal society assume the Tribunal are a force of universal good, if not without darker sides, when they are just as flawed as any other mortal or, indeed, immortal. The Tribunal tried to build a utopia on the back of bloody murder and betrayal, but in the end were unable to fully erase the sordid act, resulting in an inherent flaw in their utopia represented best by Dagoth Ur and the Nerevarine.
So the revelation would not be that young extremists are plotting a coup, the Indoril would in no way find it strange that young minds with strong convictions might consider a rash course of action, but that things would come so far that they would act on those plots, and perhaps even succeed. The shock is not that one of the Bad Daedra, or more likely all the Bad Daedra, and likely the Good Daedra as well or at least Azura, are trying to mess with Indoril society, as it's kind of what they do, but that they're succeeding in messing with Indoril society, and not just as a one-off thing corrupting some failure of an Indoril, but rather as a systematic chipping away at the societal structure.
Specific actors, divine or not, would not be able to put a dent in House Indoril. It requires a group effort, and the Indoril themselves, the other Houses, the Velothi, the outlanders and even the gods are all contributing to the group effort, intentionally or not.

Also, the MH set has stained glass in several colours. It does not appear to have any sort of religious association, though; just an expression of wealth/fancy tastes.
Post Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:40 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
st.Veloth, The Repenting
Member
28 Feb 2015

Location: toronto

if you're talking about a coup against tribunal society as a whole, the book mistborn has some nice parallels. the velothi and ashlanders being oppressed by the power of the great houses, all the power concentrated with-thin the temple, and a figurehead to lead the people to rebel. like tribunal society, everything is based on the fact that the god figures are perfect, and cannot die. this convoluted society would then be slowly destroyed by manipulation and greed resulting in more power to the temple, with the great houses acting as figure heads for the real authority. that is what i believe is the real threat. in a way it is like the shogunate. they took the power away from the aristocracy, and the village elders, and replaced them with figureheads controlled by the samurai lords.
so i guess you could say that dunmer society at this point is not only in danger from external threats, but total political upheaval.

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Post Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:03 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
st.Veloth, The Repenting
Member
28 Feb 2015

Location: toronto

also, i really like the idea of having helms for the indoril priests. also, having a kind of tension between house dres and indoril, due to the dres's sudden move into the temple, and their radical policies that gather support from the velothi using hate propaganda. so having the dres all up in their system would be a neat way to have some more interesting things going on.
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almsivi bless, to create one must first destroy, the nature of all, is in equilibrium
- sotha sil
Post Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:11 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Kevaar
Member
25 Sep 2003

Location: Colorado, USA

Gnomey wrote:


As to your plot ideas, I think they could work, but that the focus should be different. A group of young extremists or even Daedra would not be able to shake Tribunal society. If so, it would not have lasted 4000 years.
Rather, Indoril society has been slowly, imperceptibly rotting away due to inherent flaws in Tribunal society, and in the Tribunal; the Tribunal and Tribunal society assume the Tribunal are a force of universal good, if not without darker sides, when they are just as flawed as any other mortal or, indeed, immortal. The Tribunal tried to build a utopia on the back of bloody murder and betrayal, but in the end were unable to fully erase the sordid act, resulting in an inherent flaw in their utopia represented best by Dagoth Ur and the Nerevarine.
So the revelation would not be that young extremists are plotting a coup, the Indoril would in no way find it strange that young minds with strong convictions might consider a rash course of action, but that things would come so far that they would act on those plots, and perhaps even succeed. The shock is not that one of the Bad Daedra, or more likely all the Bad Daedra, and likely the Good Daedra as well or at least Azura, are trying to mess with Indoril society, as it's kind of what they do, but that they're succeeding in messing with Indoril society, and not just as a one-off thing corrupting some failure of an Indoril, but rather as a systematic chipping away at the societal structure.

Specific actors, divine or not, would not be able to put a dent in House Indoril. It requires a group effort, and the Indoril themselves, the other Houses, the Velothi, the outlanders and even the gods are all contributing to the group effort, intentionally or not.


Yes, exactly. The Bad Daedra didn't cause Indoril's rotting and the resulting chaos, but they perhaps helped it along, and are taking advantage of the situation.

In my idea, the assassination by a Bad Daedra faithful would be like pulling out the last Jenga block and having the tower collapse. The Bad Daedra KNEW that if they just poked in the right spot, it would all fall down, and they did it for exactly that reason--they've been wanting to spit in the Tribunal's face for millennia. But, they had to wait for the thing to metastasize, and they weren't responsible for the cancer in the first place. Just like Azura didn't instigate the Battle of Red Mountain and corruption of the living gods (all four), but still came in at the end to put people in their place with her Nerevarine.

The Indoril rot is also manifesting in the coup between the extremists. I'm not sure if they should be rebel-minded extremists or Tribunal extremists, though. Certainly, the Tribunal is having lots of problems maintaining control in Vvardenfell, as we can see by the inquisition setup with the Dissident Priests, as well as Almalexia's issues with the potential Nerevarine in the Tribunal story arc. They're falling apart at the seams, and trying to bring themselves back into line with force and violence. That's one option for the extremists--dogmatic Tribunal faithful who are willing to go to the extreme to make everyone else live in accordance with what they think is right and moral. IMO, though, we get enough of this theme in vanilla, and I'd prefer Indoril being a representative of the best of the Tribunal tradition, not the worst.

The other option could modeled after some real world examples like the French, Italian, and Russian Revolutions. The extremists are rebels with good intentions--they think the old Indoril traditions have become dictatorial and overly rigid, and they want to establish a new kind of ruling class that's intended to be free-er and less corrupt. However, they went way too far. The real world revolutions ended up being very bloody, and the leaders established after the civil wars ended tended to be dictators even worse than their predecessors. These could also be our extremists--rebels on a power trip. The rebels only became a serious threat between the already-present stresses and outside help (stated here as Daedra, but we could also tie it to the Empire/Imperial Cult, Dagoth Ur, House Dres, or even the Dissident Priests). Without that, the rebels would just be the typical young malcontents and heretics that the Indoril is used to dealing with. Perfect storm analogy, I suppose.

EDIT: I just realized the latter might be too similar to the Stormcloaks in Skyrim. But, same general idea.

Quote:
Also, the MH set has stained glass in several colours. It does not appear to have any sort of religious association, though; just an expression of wealth/fancy tastes.


Perhaps some Temple in one of the wealthier cities makes use of them?
Post Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:33 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
EJRS
Developer
14 Aug 2013



This is just an idea I've had for some time, I thought I'd throw it out here to see what people think of it:

The Indoril are supposed to be the house most dedicated to the teachings of the Dunmer Temple. The dunmer faith has at its core a set of deeply mystic and cryptic writings set up as a guide along the long and winding path towards the mystery and mastery required for CHIM. Since this is the innermost teaching, the ultimate goal of the faith, this would likely be the path that preoccupies Indoril nobles, while the more mundane aspects of the faith is seen as a preoccupation for the peasants and a guideline for the worldly aspects of life.

As such, Indoril nobles would all tend to be a different stages of the personal developments that would be required for an individual to transcend the mortal world, placing them somewhere between the level of your normal, average dunmer and the god-kings of Morrowind.

As such, wouldn't it be a reasonable and pretty cool way to go if it was hinted at that what is really behind the "death" of the former Patriarch is that he simply zero-summed himself out of existence (of course causing some great calamity, uneasiness and endless theorizing within the highest circles, since this concept is not generally meant to be understood in the gameworld)?
Post Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:44 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Concerning the hidden messages in the Tribunal's teachings, I don't even think the Indoril recognize what it all means. The CHIM stuff probably flies completely over their heads, or they misinterpret it to mean a more mundane kind of spiritual ascension.
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Post Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:06 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
EJRS
Developer
14 Aug 2013



Why? The Velothi people are stated in lore (apocryphaly, but by an original developer) to be one of the few groups that carry with them the methods of reaching the Tower. The only logical conclusion of the Tribunal faith is for the Dunmer to reach CHIM, and one of two reasons keeping Vivec from reaching amaranth. The Indoril and maybe the upper ranks of the Temple are the only people yet to be given the time and resources to follow this thread all the way through, with vast lifespans at their disposal to delve into the deeper mysteries of a religion they follow. They should at the very least be somewhere along this path. Anything else would seem rather cartoonish.

Even if it is an abstract meaning, it is still the final meaning, and it is meant to be understood somewhere down the line, although the concept is too abstract to be put into a simple teaching.
Post Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:56 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Kevaar
Member
25 Sep 2003

Location: Colorado, USA

EJRS wrote:

As such, wouldn't it be a reasonable and pretty cool way to go if it was hinted at that what is really behind the "death" of the former Patriarch is that he simply zero-summed himself out of existence (of course causing some great calamity, uneasiness and endless theorizing within the highest circles, since this concept is not generally meant to be understood in the gameworld)?


XD I think that be amazing, actually. Though what would the rest of the questline be about? The player learning CHIM themselves from his writings?
Post Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:58 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Marandahir
Member
09 Dec 2008



I'm afraid that if you make CHIM too-explicit within a questline, if you feature it that heavily, then you ruin the magic of CHIM.

CHIM is the root question behind EVERYTHING in the game, but as virtue of that, it cannot hold more relevance in one Great House plotline than another - doing so would substantialize the abstract. It would also be extraordinarily presumptuous for TR writers to "explain" CHIM within the questline; CHIM is such a central concept to the whole of "The Elder Scrolls," and it's would be very hard not to get some part of it wrong. I don't mean wrong in the sense that someone misunderstands CHIM, which would be wrong for them but right for the writers, but rather wrong in that the TR writers are playing a judgement on the character's wrongful interpretation of CHIM, as if the TR writers know the correct interpretation.

Emphasing CHIM would ironically remove some of the depths that Players could go in exploring the hidden eschatology of CHIM. Please don't do that.
Post Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:02 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
DestinedToDie
Developer
22 Feb 2014



Who knew CHIM? Vivec and Tiber Septim. Not just any average Great House dunmer Grandmaster knows CHIM, otherwise they would have become a God and conquered their own continent.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:CHIM
Post Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:18 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
EJRS
Developer
14 Aug 2013



My proposition suggested hinting at zero-summing. Not at someone actually attaining CHIM, which would indeed be taking proposterous liberties with the TES universe and its lore.

Still, the ultimate goal of the path that the Chimer/Dunmer have been on is the transcendence of the entirety of the Chimer/Dunmer people, although this goal remains obscure to probably anyone apart from Vivec, and can be assumed to be thwarted entirely by Azura through the actions that make up the Morrowind mainquest. As such, I think hinting at something to do with this could be a very charming idea, while still steering away from spoiling the obscurity of CHIM and its whole concept.

My proposition wouldn't at all put the focus of the Indoril quest on the concept of CHIM and TES-metaphysics. It would be nothing but a fun hinting at a concept that can be assumed to be at least somewhat understood by most players, but that would be extremely obscure to any but a very few characters in the gameworld. The other nobles simply wouldn't know what to make of the odd circumstances surrounding the disappearance of their patriarch, blaming each other, rivals, the Dark Brotherhood, the Morag Tong etc. etc.
Post Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:25 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Kevaar
Member
25 Sep 2003

Location: Colorado, USA

Heh, this blog post comes to mind:

https://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-3/

It gives me the image of Dwemer being torn from existence because someone deleted all their files in the TESCS, and Yagrum was saved because he was on a backup on some other computer...

ANYWAY...

I suppose it'd have to be a very light reference to work, that the player wouldn't be expected to pick up on unless they already know about CHIM. For the purposes of the story, the real cause of death would never be deduced. Still makes me wonder about the rest of the questline, though. A more militant group might go about "witch hunting" to catch the culprit, but I'm not sure that describes Indoril. The death might just be better as a more minor detail to the overarching plot?
Post Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:15 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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