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rot
Lead Developer
21 Oct 2012



What happens to it wrt faction merging?

If I understand correctly, Adanorcil's idea is to basically turn the vanilla Temple in a "Vivecian order" for convenience, keeping TR's Temple faction and questline separate?
Sload proposed mixing them, redeeming the vanilla Temple questline in the process by alternating pilgrimages and actual quests.

It'd probably be good to know what the Temple is eventually supposed to be before doing something with the elephant (Necrom)
Post Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:48 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



I was assuming the Tribunal Temple would be 1 faction just like the other factions, I have no prejudice one way or the other about it. My concerns with making the Tribunal Temple the Vivec order in particular are: currently, only the pilgrimages - and not all of them - are particularly concerned with Vivec; shouldn't there also be an order for Almalexia and Sotha Sil as well?; does that mean there shouldn't be a standard joinable Temple?

My notes were somewhat simple. The first half of the Temple is lay service and initiation, with the player alternatively assisting temple priests in remote towns of Morrowind (giving all those temples some purpose) and completing pilgrimages: 1 each for the tribunes (with 3 stops, not 7 like the original game), 1 for the ancestors (1 stop in necrom), and 1 for the saints (1 stop for each saint). Once they've become accepted as a priest or whatever, of the order of badass adventuring not boring prayer giving, there are further pilgrimages exploring gnostic secrets of the Tribunal, and also a driven, narrative quest-line surrounding Necrom.

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Post Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:36 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gez
Developer Emeritus
22 Jul 2005



Always found it kinda weird that the Temple was joinable in the first place. The Temple is based on the Tribunal (which the player depowers and kills), the ancestors (as an outlander born of unknown parents, there's a little problem here), and the good and bad daedra (though they're not worshiped, just kinda relevant). Also, there's quite an awkward interplay with the main quest.

(Would have made more sense to let the player join an affiliated faction, like the Buoyant Armigers. Then you keep all the "clean out monster-cultist den X/recover artifact Y" quests, the pilgrimage shrines remain but have no associated quest, and the "heal the sick" quests can be shuffled off to the Imp Cult. But that's not the kind of things that can be changed now.)

Temple quests probably run along these three themes: Mercy (all the "heal the sick" type things), Mystery (pilgrimages and other esoteric stuff), and Mastery (various heroic feats).

Why should the Tribune's pilgrimages be only three stops? It means cutting out four of the Seven Graces of Vivec (or removing all seven, and creating three new instead.) Keep in mind that they're pretty bunched up (three in Vivec city, two in Gnisis since the Koal Cave is so close to the town) and that there's no need to have as many pilgrimages to the other two. Almalexia could have like two, three, or four, and Sotha Sil none because nobody fucking care about Sotha Sil. They forgot where his city even was, this should tell you how much the Dunmer care about pilgriming to Seht's holy places.
Post Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:27 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I support there being a single Tribunal Temple faction. The vanilla faction didn't follow a standard story-line, so it should be easy to integrate our quests with the original ones. Having a Vvardenfell branch of the Temple dedicated to Vivec strikes me as the kind of mod-dependent setup we should be trying to move away from. I see absolutely no storytelling value in keeping the factions separate.

@Gez: The Dunmer should definitely care about Sotha Sil. Why would they completely ignore one of their divine God Kings? The fact that there isn't much established lore concerning how everyday Dunmer view and worship him is something we should fix, rather than ignore. Him being a recluse and super mysterious isn't a justification for the Dunmer to not care about him. The Dunmer love mystery in their culture. Mephala, one of their ancestral deities, is all about secrets and keeping her sphere obscured from mortals. Sotha Sil might not be as popularly worshiped as the other Triunes in Morrowind, who have historically played a more active role in the daily lives of their followers, but he definitely wouldn't be ignored, especially by the rank-and-file priests of the Temple.

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Post Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:14 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

I feel like they want to care about him, but they aren't exactly sure how to care about him, since he's so esoteric and aloof.
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Post Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:28 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gez
Developer Emeritus
22 Jul 2005



Heck, it would be a solid hook for a small Temple quest line to be about rediscovering Seht's holy places, culminating with the fabled location of his city. But it's been decided not to have his city anywhere.
Post Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:13 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Adanorcil
Developer Emeritus
22 Jan 2006



A "Vivecian order" would be overstating it a bit, but I did suggest working with some different dioceses for a variety of reasons. Firstly, this idea developed when the notion of faction merging was still a new and somewhat controversial suggestion, and I hoped some degree of modularity would ease the transition. Secondly, I felt that the Tribunal Temple touched upon so many of the topics in the story of Morrowind that to unite all of it would result in an unwieldy behemoth of a questline that would probably do none of them justice.

However, I consider none of this particularly set in stone and I'm confident that all of the above concerns can be addressed sufficiently if we design the faction properly.
Post Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:57 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
rot
Lead Developer
21 Oct 2012



So the real requirements are:

- whichever faction (if sub~) is in charge in Necrom should be joinable because it needs the questline
- being good

Anything else?

Making the otherwise very non-enticing vanilla Temple better (in ways that can't be adressed by mere bugfixing) WOULD be a bonus.
Post Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:14 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Concerning faction relationships, or NPC reactions towards members of other factions.

In another thread I started drawing a table to determine faction relationships with other factions, which has changed a few times since the first sketch. The table shows NPC reactions towards members of different factions. The table should be read by finding the source faction on the left hand column, and matching it with a faction from the top row. See the table in the spoiler below.
Gnomey wrote:
First of all, in those graphs, I think the vertical columns are really the most important. They show how the opinions of members of factions change upon the player joining a certain faction.
Always remember that faction relations are inherently player-centric. The player will probably never join Her Hands, for instance, so figuring out what other factions would think of Her Hands would mostly be a waste of time. Figuring out what Her Hands thinks (if anything) of other factions is, however, very important.
Truth be told, I think it might be more reasonable to just figure out the vertical columns in the individual faction threads. This would split the task into bite-sized portions, allowing for proper discussion, and it would be rather easy to then go through the faction threads and gather the results.

Per Gnomey’s advice I am now splitting this up through the faction threads. Please discuss in this thread the reactions of other factions towards Tribunal Temple to keep things organised.



My lack of knowledge denies me to comment on this, but from a noob point of view I'd say the Temple part looks pretty solid. This is open for discussion of course.
Post Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:21 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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