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gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

The question has been raised of whether we want underground areas like sewers to feature in OE. I'm on the fence (the question we always have to ask is why does this city get a sewer when others of a similar size don't?), but I think there may be potential in the idea.

One thing I thought might be nice would be that if we include a sewer (or a cave tunnel leading to the proposed underground naval dock), there should be a hidden entrance to the ancestral tomb of the Raathim family. That would provide dungeon funsies and a nod to old lore without pressing the point too much.

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Post Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:13 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

I'm on the fence, too -- I think this is a feature noone will miss if it is absent, and it might delay the release of Heartland (since everything other than OE is getting done way faster). Of course, it could be interesting just as well. Should a tomb have an entrance from sewers? Sounds a tad sacrilegious, but maybe that's our intention...
Post Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:24 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bero
Reviewer
26 Sep 2007

Location: Slovakia

I think that there should be some underground after all this city was built on a top of destroyed Indoril city there have to be some remains.
That can also explain entrance to Raathim tomb.

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Post Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:08 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch
Developer
31 Dec 2013



I'd like some old London inspired sewers in OE and underground walkways along the canal in Alma with a most elaborate sewage system underneath.

I think a system of underground tunnels should have two levels in OE one for storage and crypts and a deeper level with sewer. The two should be on the same interior as much as possible, but only connect in discreet places or straight lowers sewer from surface access points. (Maybe crypt would have its own interior cell.) To me it isn't really absolutely necessary to have sewers here however, they could be throwing their shit in the street.

I would eventually really like to see a more elaborate underground in Almalexia however. A continued canal interior would need hobos camping out around braziers and scrapwood bonfires and living out of crates. Could have a real hobo camp down there!

I think that of all cities Almalexia should have a forgotten underbelly. First a system of tunnels and crypts inhabited by forgotten people in some places and in other areas acting only as service tunnels and storage w moving fresh water. Next a more elaborate sewage system of forgotten places, inhabited only rats and maybe bandits in the areas away from open sewage. Fresh water spilling in to keep things fluid. Perhaps eventually switch to hints of rumored Dwermer civ ruins in the lowest levels.

Since Alma is such a massive city the sewers should be equally impressive and open up into big multi-story rooms, waterfalls of raw sewage etc. This would show the city to be truly massive in scope and rich in history. It would also reveal the builders of the original ancient city to be really advanced and civilized. Also, since Mournhold has sewers, Almalexia, the larger city must too because all that sewage must flow somewhere. To not add these would be a huge oversight since the Mournhold sewers have no place to drain.
Post Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:01 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I don't think there's much interest in giving Almalexia more sewers, seeing as the city is already a massive chore to finish as is. Of course, it's still an open possibility.

Could someone post a link to the current OE sewer interiors? I can't seem to find where they're stashed away on the forum.

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Post Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:45 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



Yeti wrote:
Could someone post a link to the current OE sewer interiors? I can't seem to find where they're stashed away on the forum.


I believe they don't exist yet.

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Post Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:09 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
arvisrend
Lead Developer
04 Oct 2010

Location: substitutional world

They do exist: i3-591 but they'll need some fixing (some places are hard to pass).
Post Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:23 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch
Developer
31 Dec 2013



OMG! These are amazing! This is exactly the type of stuff I hope will be included for Almalexia.

We have the sewer, sub sewer, the crypt stuff (bones), an old sanctuary, fresh water flowing in, keeping it fluid, and multi-story waterfalls of fresh water flowing over a big sewage pit thing. Its all really visually impressive and interconnected which makes exploring it interesting.

I do think its a shame most of us don't even realize the stuff that we already have.
Post Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:41 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



They are amazing. How sweet it is to be wrong.

Some thoughts on the sewers. First of all, they are awesome. Second of all, there are a multitude of cranks in the sewers. They provide a great opportunity to play with rising and lowering the water levels to make some areas un-/accessible. We need someone script-savvy to do this. Third, they need little a-fixing. There are some areas where the water is too shallow for the PC to swim yet too deep to walk, which essentially creates an awkward, invisible obstacle. Also, there *might* be some problems with the sewers fitting the exterior above. I mean: West City Sewers connects to the bowyer's shop in the OE East? //Edit:// of yeah, they are issues with the exterior. the sewers were made to match the old one.

Oh, and also: Raathim family ancestral tomb as well as a sewer pipe leading out from underneath the Castle where the water can flow into the Inner Sea (also provides a neat, sneaky exit/entrance).

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Last edited by Rats on Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
Post Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:47 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

arvisrend wrote:
Should a tomb have an entrance from sewers? Sounds a tad sacrilegious, but maybe that's our intention...


My thinking was not that the tomb was originally designed to be accessible via the sewers, rather that there be a section of collapsed wall that reveals the location. The PC will be the first person to stumble upon it in centuries.

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Post Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:59 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

arvisrend wrote:
They do exist: i3-591 but they'll need some fixing (some places are hard to pass).


OMG so sexy. Also bigger than the town above ground, so it's possible we'll need to trim it and keep the best bits. Luckily it's fairly modular so we can shuffle it around as needed.

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Post Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:15 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bero
Reviewer
26 Sep 2007

Location: Slovakia

Those sewers are beyond awesome but they need to be updated to current Old Ebonhearth. I think Hemitheon can do it easily.
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Post Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:14 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Mwgek
Developer
11 Apr 2008



Bero wrote:
Those sewers are beyond awesome but they need to be updated to current Old Ebonhearth. I think Hemitheon can do it easily.


If his last login wasn't dated to 04 Sep 2012.

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Last edited by Mwgek on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:55 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



Bero wrote:
Those sewers are beyond awesome but they need to be updated to current Old Ebonhearth. I think Hemitheon can do it easily.


I'm thinkin' Bero could do it just as easily Smile

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Post Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:21 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I can definitely see how people on the Skype meeting thought these sewers were too hard to navigate. Yikes. These will probably need a fair amount of work if we go with keeping them. Making room for serviceable path-grids might be one issue, for example.

If you guys want some OM ruin stuff to add to Old Ebonheart's underground, feel free to salvage the OM ruins that are currently beneath Othrensis. I believe the consensus was to re-purpose them elsewhere.

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Post Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:18 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bero
Reviewer
26 Sep 2007

Location: Slovakia

I can if you want me to Very Happy and OM ruin stuff might be great idea as well (it doesn't have to be big since it was destroyed)
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Post Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:56 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

Those sewers are incredible. It's worth it to salvage as much as possible in my opinion.

Maybe it's an idea to lay them out on a map of the current city. Perhaps some buildings since the redesign could now get an entry added?

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Post Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:15 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

I'm leaning towards keeping the main segments of the sewers and ditching the smaller connecting cells. I have half a map worked out- the Western sewer exists should lead to the chapel and the mayor's mansion. One of the Eastern exists could feasibly lead outside the city walls as a discreet exit.
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Post Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:34 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



Proposed entrances/exits for the sewers:

_Grand Chapel of Talos
_Main Gates of OE Town
_The Empress Katariah Tavern
_OE Castle
_outside the city walls, through a natural cavern

edit: diagram removed, see new one below

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Last edited by Rats on Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:45 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Looks good to me.
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Post Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:58 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bero
Reviewer
26 Sep 2007

Location: Slovakia

I would add some entrances from towers and docks.
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Post Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:49 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Seneca37
Lead Developer
10 Feb 2014



A "sewer" implies a waste removal system. If this is a sewer, then it should be connected to some kind of water source, either the sea or an underground river. However, there is no indoor plumbing for waste removal. That subject is taboo in MW. If these sewers provide water, then I'd suggest calling them an underground aqueduct - but again they would need to be connected to a water source.

If these are just tunnels - then I suggest just calling them tunnels or something similar.

Will there be any Dunmer ruins in these? This spot was occupied for a long time by the Dunmer, so ruins below ground would be plausible.


Last edited by Seneca37 on Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:17 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



So, a new list based on the improvement suggestions made above:

_Grand Chapel of Talos, Undercroft
_Main Gates of OE Town
_The Empress Katariah Tavern
_OE Castle (+perhaps an outlet to the sea below the castle rock)
_Wall Tower i3-767-Imp
_Wall Tower i3-774-Imp
_outside the city walls, through a natural cavern
_outlet to the sea (at the docks)


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Post Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:24 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Bero
Reviewer
26 Sep 2007

Location: Slovakia

Thats exactly what I had in mind rats.
We can call it sewers but some waterspouts (in docks) and drains would be nice. I think making sewers really useful(the way real sewers are useful) was never high priority in TES.

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Post Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:20 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

That looks good. We can always say the sewers were built in a period of over-enthusiastic public works, when Old Ebonheart was planned to be as grand as the Imperial city. In the end the city never grew and they weren't really needed.
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Post Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:11 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I don't think have to draw attention to the large size of the sewers. As a general rule, video game sewers never make sense, and players don't expect them to.
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Post Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:21 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



I agree with Yeti. Dungeon sewers are a genre conceit that players accept.
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Post Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:28 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



Here be a mockup of the Raathim Ancestral Tomb to go with the sewers. Uses Katariah's death mask model from this post. Comments? Thoughts?


Raathim Ancestral Tomb test.esp
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Raathim Ancestral Tomb test.esp
 Filesize:  49.07 KB
 Downloaded:  92 Time(s)


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Post Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:30 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
RyanS
Lead Developer
19 Aug 2013

Location: California

Wow, that looks good! However, I would hope for the main burial chamber to look a little bit more grand in the final version.
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Post Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:01 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Why
Lead Developer
04 Jul 2009

Location: Utrecht

I kind of like the fact that it doesn't look completely disproportionate. Very cool.

I'd be more than happy to make some changes to the chapel undercroft to accommodate the entrance to the sewers. Is that something you guys want me to do now, before the sewers get underway, or would you rather save it for later?
Post Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:31 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Based on Rat's new text, I think the sewers could serve as a good location for a Talos Cult meeting place/shrine.
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