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Ironed Maidens
Developer
23 Feb 2008



No fat faces. Morrowind is gaunt.
Post Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:35 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Miraclestone
Developer
05 Aug 2014



There's nothing wrong with fat faces (or new ideas), the issue here is if we can apply it successfully and if this is in TR's domain of influence. I honestly think it should be applied but only on special case npcs like a high ranking East Empire Company man or something like that; I wasn't suggesting wide spread use of the face. Think of it like Barenziah's models, the face would only be used conservatively.

The issues come when trying to apply it in a way that does not break immersion. Immersion is super important and anything added into the game should blend with what is already there. The fat face can add something new to the game and enforce the idea that the Morrowind can be more than what is just on Vvardenfell. But if we can't get the face working with the body than it isn't worth putting in, simple as that.
Post Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:37 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
st.Veloth, The Repenting
Member
28 Feb 2015

Location: toronto

go to MK for ideas. his concepts on the imperials are groundbreaking. no more generic empire for me!
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Post Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:41 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
RyanS
Lead Developer
19 Aug 2013

Location: California

I'm all for the fat faces. I think they'd make an interesting addition.
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Post Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:28 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



So, here's a little something I've been fiddling with, a unique Imperial guard's cuirass for Old Ebonheart. The aim is to have a cuirass that will work with the rest of the vanilla Imperial guard armor set. Still very much a working-in-progress, but feedbacks welcome. The female and male versions of the armor are intentionally quite different.


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Post Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:25 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Looks great, Rats. Another nice touch to make Old Ebonheart stand out.
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Post Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:40 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Your poor avatar... Indeed looks great, it's gonna be an amazing settlement!
Post Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:50 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



Imma just gonna spam this thread with screenshots of stuff I'm working on. Earlier somewhere I've said that I'd really like Old Ebonheart castle's interiors have wall mosaics or murals depicting important moments in the province's history from an Imperial point of view.

Here's one of such moments. The Heathen God-King VIVEC surrenders hirself and Morrowind to God-Emperor TIBER SEPTIM.


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Post Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:03 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Dragon32
Member
06 Apr 2008



Rats wrote:
Imma just gonna spam this thread with screenshots of stuff I'm working on. Earlier somewhere I've said that I'd really like Old Ebonheart castle's interiors have wall mosaics or murals depicting important moments in the province's history from an Imperial point of view.

Here's one of such moments. The Heathen God-King VIVEC surrenders hirself and Morrowind to God-Emperor TIBER SEPTIM.

<image snip>
That's fantastic, Rats. I love both the idea and the execution.

[Edit: Although if I remember right the whole halo thing for saints and so on came about via Alexander the Great and conquering the Egypt. I think his halo was representative of him being the son of Ra. Or something.

Anyway, there's parallels between Tamriel and our world so a halo in this case could well be valid. Not a lore monster here. My first thought was it felt right and that's good enough for me Smile ]
Post Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:43 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Theminimanx
Lead Developer
26 Jan 2014

Location: GMT +1

I know the stained glass images of the Divines in Oblivion had halos, though I don't know if the colour is significant.

Anyway, I like the design of it, though my first impression is that the background should maybe be coloured as well. Depends on how it looks in-game I guess. I'm not an artist, maybe 10Kaziem can have a look at it.

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Post Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:19 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
ihavefivehat
Member
20 Oct 2014



I love the drawing, but I'm not a fan of that tile filter. I think it would look great as a fresco, though!
Post Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:20 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Amazing drawing and I like the tiles as well, though maybe something more rectangular could work as well, like the azulejos in the São Bento station in Oporto, Portugal. In the station are also pictured some historically important battle fields, which might be an idea for te OE castle as well.
Post Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:08 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Seneca37
Lead Developer
10 Feb 2014



Nice work Rats. This will fit in very nicely in the large atrium. Unfortunately, I'm just not that thrilled with the halo - brings up the notion of the Catholic Church.
Post Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:36 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Terrifying Daedric Foe
Developer
26 Aug 2010

Location: England

That looks fantastic. I can imagine a quest about a devout dunmer trying to vandalise this artwork out of anger for the portrayal of their God-King as a kneeling subject.
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Post Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:17 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I like the mural, but it's really, really undiplomatic. I think some Imperials should be as angry about it as the Dunmer would be just because it's so hazardous to public relations, and whoever commissioned it was either an idiot or picking a fight as well as being an idiot. That being said, that's a lot to work with.
Maybe one of the less competent Emperors commissioned it when Morrowind was being unruly as a really misguided way to remind the Dunmer who's boss.
I'd think the more PC representation would be to show Tiber Septim and Vivec on more-or-less equal level, perhaps even as friends, with subtle hints at Tiber Septim being superior and Vivec being submissive.

Edit: pictures of European explorers encountering natives come to mind, like these.
Post Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:23 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



Thanks for the feedback, guys! Here's a WIP sketch of what I'm currently working on with Vivec's posture changed. I'm not sure what to do with Tiber Septim's halo, since I quite like it... maybe make it diamond shaped?


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Post Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:38 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

I like this new sketch, Rats! You sure do know how to deal with feedback. Personally I didnt have much of an issue with the halo. I imagina that to some it might feel church related, but in fact it returns in art of every and any people/religion in history. So, could it be related to a real life thing? Most definitely. Does that make it inappropriate for TR? Not in my opinion. Anything in the game could be related to something in the real world. Dunmer eat with cutlery like in the modern western world, you don't hear anyone about that either. I personally like the way it looks with the halo and it is a good way to demonstrate contrast without drawing attention off the purpose of the art piece. Maybe a diamond shaped halo could work as well, but I'd have to see it before I can judge.
Post Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:00 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I think the halo is fine; I certainly prefer the current look to a diamond shape halo, as I think we should avoid forcing everything related to the Empire and the Nine Divines into a diamond shape. Razz More to the point, though, even though it's a Christian symbol it's used in a very different context. Talos is a god, so more comparable to Jesus than to the typical saint, but also to, say, Buddha, but perhaps most aptly to Vishnu and his many avatars (including Buddha), who, though I'm hardly an expert on theology, particularly Hindu theology, may have more directly inspired Talos than any Christian figures. (Specifically Talos as an avatar of Shor, ie. a Shezzarine). I think you can see where I'm going with this.

One thing I would say, though, is that I'd give Tiber Septim a scar on his neck, or perhaps a more symbolic diamond-shaped hole. Also, chronologically, Tiber Septim is not yet Talos, though that's doesn't really matter either way. (Either way when the dragon broke as he became Talos, history was probably changed so that he was always Talos, as it did for the Tribunal in the Red moment, and either way in Imperial religious imagery Tiber Septim is probably always depicted as Talos).

Edit: also, good call on the kneeling House Dunmer off to the side; that's a diplomatic way to make Vivec kneel by implication.
Post Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:01 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Glisp
Member
01 Nov 2012



I know this may sound nitpicky, but if the gauntlet on Vivec's arm is supposed to be Wraithguard, shouldn't it be on his right hand? And yes, I know the Jury Rig version is left handed (the version you get for killing him and taking it to Yagrum Bagarn) but the primary version is right handed (unless you're using MPP, in which case both are right handed because Quran or however it's spelled, is a jerk like that)

Technically, the right handed one would be the canon version going by events.
Post Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:13 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Romans, Egyptians, Nordics, Mayas, Africans, Hindu's, Far East Asians and many more peoples have praised the sun(god) and depicted it as halo's. However, the history of the halo doesn't matter because probably most players would associate it with Christianity anyway. My super strong argument is that I like it because it looks good in my eyes. Smile
Post Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:37 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I'm pretty sure it's just a chitin gauntlet. Vivec does indeed wear chitin on his right, though I just realized his skin colours are reversed in Rats' art. Which doesn't really matter as the Imperial artist would never have actually seen Vivec anyway. Vivec-at-peace, as he was probably when negotiating the Armistice, would have probably looked much as in the earlier image, while Vivec-at-war would have probably been dressed more like this. I think how he's represented in the mural is fine either way. I'm not sure if Vivec ever used the wraithguard in the first place; messing about with Kagrenac's tools was more Sotha Sil's thing.

Edit: yeah, the halo's pretty universal. I would argue that in TES it would rarely if ever be associated with the sun god Magnus, though, who is rarely worshiped, aside from groups like the Mythic Dawn and other Mehrunes Dagon cultists. The wheel seems far more common as a symbol, both for Ayleids, who built the Imperial City in the shape of a wheel and gave the Imperials much of their theology, and Vivec, who established the whirling school and taught them how to make the wheel (more or less; I'm basically paraphrasing), and others I'm no doubt forgetting.
Post Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:42 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
6plus
Developer
24 Apr 2011



Methinks Tiber Septim should be depicted at least 20% taller than Symmachus and Vivec (think egyptian iconography).
Post Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:12 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012





new WIP up.

still to do:
_make Tiber Septim a little taller
_add decorative borders
_add a Lorkhan of some sort (snake at the bottom of the mural, opposite Akatosh)
_add some sort of "ribbon of text" explaining what's happening
_tweak the overall appearance of the mural to be less childish and more "Byzantine" or "medieval"
_perhaps add in the background the city of (old) Old Ebonheart, a city in flames

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Post Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:23 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

There already is a Lorkhan in the mural; Talos. While it wouldn't hurt to have another at the bottom, it would technically be redundant, and perhaps underplay the significance of the scene and its central figure.

Edit: also, is there a reason for there being three Housemer rather than five? (You even have five figures on the left).
Post Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:44 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Worsas
Developer
10 Sep 2005



I like the gesture of General Symmachus a lot here. This all is a great example for how a picture can tell a complete story in only a few moments of looking at it.

If I'm allowed to give some feedback: I'm not sure about the clouds. Everything else could work ingame, if it gets desaturated and submerged into a surface of some kind. But the clouds make it look a bit cartoony to me.
Post Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:02 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Seneca37
Lead Developer
10 Feb 2014



Is the background stone block wall changeable? I'm just not sure how its going to line up, or even what the stone wall will be like in the atrium yet.
Post Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:53 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I'd assume the bricks are just there temporarily to give an idea of how the mural would look like on a wall, I'd certainly suggest having those areas be transparent in the final texture.

I agree that the clouds are the most questionable part of the mural, and that with a bit of desaturation and such the rest should look fine, but you did say you'd 'tweak' the overall appearance, so it's not as though you were planning to redo it from scratch anyway.
Post Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:05 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012





Hark!

Pictured are Vivec, Tiber Septim, General Symmachus, the Great Houses represented by the five figures on the right, and the Imperial Legion on the left. The elves are seen laying down their arms with the treacherous Indoril hiding a torch behind their back hinting at the upcoming burning of (Old) Old Ebonheart. Bordering the mural are eight coats-of-arms with the symbol of each of the Eight Divines, with Akatosh and Lorkhan appearing as the dragon and the serpent opposite to each other (So, in a away, both Akatosh and Lorkhan appear twice in the mural: Akatosh as the dragon and the coat-of-arms and Lorkhan as Talos and as the serpent). In the background the Red Mountain and the two moons of Tamriel can be seen.

The text in the banners read: "The Heathen-God Vivace surrenders / to Tiber Septim / as the Red Legions and the Five Elven / Houses look on". "Vivace" is an intentional "spelling error", an Imperial bastardization of "Vivec". The name comes from the old Bethesda concept map, it's also a musical term which is something that imo befits Elder Scrolls lore.

Should be placed where the actual Treaty of the Armistice is held on display. Looks like this in game.

Thoughts?

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Post Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:01 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
ihavefivehat
Member
20 Oct 2014



That's really nice! Great work on the coloring and the border is beautiful.

Personally, I find the floating banners distracting. In my opinion it would be better to have the text somewhere at the edge of the composition. Or maybe the text is unnecessary.
Post Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:50 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Seneca37
Lead Developer
10 Feb 2014



Where would the Treaty be held?
One possible location would be the vault that wasn't broken into. Any other ideas?
Post Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:13 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
RyanS
Lead Developer
19 Aug 2013

Location: California

I think the treaty should be displayed in a more public area of the castle, though still heavily guarded and untouchable. It would be a good reminder to visitors who Morrowind belongs to.

I personally have no criticism over the mural. Great job!

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Post Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:38 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



Like your other work this is very nice. I do have a few suggestions though.

1. The lower part is a little muddy yet. To remedy this I would draw a line showing behind the figures for the ground and bring more of the grey down into the background to add contrast. Mostly an issue on right side (fog out the mountain more). Keep lines slightly sharper on the top of figures on left.

2. Two tone the sun rays all the way to the ground line to simplify the design and further reduce the muddyness. Maybe 5 rays in total, alternating lighter/ darker.

3. Straighten and lower bottom border and enlarge the snake symbol to be close to be more prominent.

4. Maybe remove the text banners. Maybe reduce. Perhaps "heathen god surrenders. Septum victorious." On opposing sides. Maybe just try without and put the text inline on the treaty document.

So overall just slightly simpler and bold. The distressed look is nice as are the figures and concept.

This is just nitpicking though. Anything is better than nothing, and this is already looking nice.

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Post Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:48 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
10Kaziem
Lead Developer
03 Apr 2015



Wouldn't the words be in daedric script? Everything else is in Morrowind.
Post Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:40 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

For the treaty itself, having a version in common tongue and one in Dunmeri would make sense, possibly as two columns side by side. That being said, I'm not sure how widespread the common tongue was in Morrowind when the Armistice was signed.
If we have the Armistice on display, I think it should be a relatively blurry misc item like the Dwemer schematics, probably a partially opened scroll, unless someone really feels like writing out a full version.

I personally pretty much disagree with all of Sasquatch's opinions except the last as far as adjustments to the banner go, which really just shows how subjective the matter is; I think the muddy look of the lower part of the mural makes it blend in more with its surroundings in a good way, and makes it look more aged, as I assume it's supposed to be. The same goes for the sun's rays. I also like the level of prominence of the snake as it is; it looks quite visible in the in-game screenshot without distracting from the rest of the mural.
The text on the banners does look a little out of place, though it doesn't look as bad in the in-game screenshot. I'm not sure what a better solution for that might look like.

The main thing I think should perhaps be adjusted is the colour palette. I don't think it should be desaturated, as I don't think Morrowind is as drab as people tend to think, but I do think some of the colours could perhaps be darkened a little, such as the blood on the legionnaires, and I'd also consider using a more limited palette overall; rather than having several shades of dark blue/violet (the legionary shields, Tiber Septim's accessories, the Telvanni and Redoran and Lorkhan), just have one. This sort of stuff is very hard to judge without seeing the fresco in-game, though, even the screenshot can only do so much.

Edit: I ended up tossing together a quick and ugly mock-up:

Post Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:58 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I rather like Gnomey's colors, especially for Vivec.
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Post Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:22 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
EJRS
Developer
14 Aug 2013



I agree with Sasquatch. While the basics look nice, it needs to be simplified, which is often the hardest thing to do - and do right - in a creative process.

I would also make the flanking groups of figures smaller to put more emphasis on the central figures (nevermind realism: I can't really see that working in TES3) and also to create a better composition of shapes in the painting.

I would go with sasquatchs suggestion to reduce the text to "Heathen god surrenders. Septim victorious", make the text and scrolls a big larger. I would then suggest adding a smaller text below the flanking groups, maybe without scrolls, reading something like "Ruby legions triumphant" and "The houses of the Dunmer look on". All to make it less like something modern and familiar. These suggestions on style are all based on elements taken from various real life historical art. It would give the whole thing more of an air of something belonging to a real and elaborate culture different from anything we know.

Addition: Tiber Septim from behind, as drawn by Kirkbride. Just a potential inspiration for the garb. I prefer the look of that armour.
Post Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:19 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
6plus
Developer
24 Apr 2011



EJRS wrote:
I would also make the flanking groups of figures smaller to put more emphasis on the central figures (nevermind realism: I can't really see that working in TES3) and also to create a better composition of shapes in the painting.

I second that.

And how about text scrolls naming the important people (Septim, Vivec, the houses etc.) above or below them? So that even the most ignorant dunmer know what they're looking at.
Post Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:19 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Worsas
Developer
10 Sep 2005



I generally wonder, if it would fit better into the game, if blurred and submerged into a tapestry canvas. Even after the color adjusting and the cracky overlay it still has got something strikingly different about it, especially, if you consider other murals seen in the game that are always very obscure and desaturated in their depictions.

Here is an attempt at submerging the mural a bit more into a stone surface. It is not very good, but probably less suspicious than the previous versions. Just a quick attempt.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22362022/pics/tiber_victory.jpg
Post Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:55 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Theminimanx
Lead Developer
26 Jan 2014

Location: GMT +1

Worsas wrote:
suspicious

I think you mean 'conspicuous' there Smile

OT: Yeah, I do think the mural looks very different from all the other illustrations in Morrowind. I know there are no pre-existing Imperial images, so we don't have any strict rules (unless people made similar stuff in Province: Cyrodiil?)
Even so, still think it should look a bit more worn out by time, like what Worsas has done with it. The faded look also helps illustrate that the Empire has their best time behind it, and are on the decline.

_________________
The death of vanilla Morrowind will end this prophecy and unite all Morrowind fans again under one mod, one faith, one rule by our divine project. The puppet Morrowind overhaul mods will lay down their arms and bow to our will. Those who do not yield will be destroyed.
Post Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:03 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
10Kaziem
Lead Developer
03 Apr 2015



If you do this, can I suggest you keep the original artwork file, also, so we can use it if we need to update the background wall texture? So we have it in a separate place so we don't need to worry?
Post Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:39 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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