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Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Let's start discussing the implementation of the new Indoril concept with Roa Dyr.
Sload wrote:
Roa Dyr
Roa Dyr is the castle-estate of Indoril Draler Ilvi. It is a large castle on the Thirr, made up of several keeps separated by canals.

Adjustments: This is the biggest change on this list; Roa Dyr goes from being a town to a castle. A large castle, and still featuring the canals everyone likes. Also the Ilvi manor gets deleted, and there are other ints around the Thirr River Valley that need to be changed.

This is an attempt to reconcile what people like about Roa Dyr (the canal-look) with what we need from an MH style settlement in that location. It will continue to clearly identify this area as Indoril - more clearly, in fact, because the buildings will be big and tall - and continue to look nice, while also fitting in with the larger design goals for House Indoril.
My proposed map:

Map

Blue = Keep building in current area
Purple = Building moved from different location
Green = New Building
Light Blue = Wall

1. Ilvi Manor/Castle
2. Guard Tower?
3. Guard Tower?
4. Manor of Ilvi In-Laws?
5. Terminus Atrus: Wizard
6. Guard Tower
7. Dunmer Trader
8. Dunmer Crafsmer
9. Dunmer Merchant
10. Smith
11. Guard Tower
12. Harbor Storage
13. Harbor Tower

What to do with Current Interiors

Interiors

Eastern Guard Tower - Keep in current location
Felovil Manor - Reuse in Almalexia
Gilnam Arendes: Potter - Keep in current location as a maker of Culdems employed as a craftsmer by the estate.
Harbor Office - Keep in current location (Still needs a better name)
Harbor Storage - Keep in current location
Idruvi Naryon's House - Save the interior and convert it to a Velothi one for use in a future area.
Jeanette Cobden: Merchant - Keep in current location as a Dunmer merchant
Mabelien's House - Reused in Almalexia
Mabelien: Smith - Move to the current location of "Truvi
Milthulsim Rithro: Pawnbroker - Reuse somewhere else
Morag Tong Guildhall - Doesn't fit the location of an Indoril manor estate. Not sure where we could relocate it. If Almalexia has a Morag Tong Guildhall, it will be a hell of a lot more impressive than this. I suppose we could adapt it into something else. Much of it doesn't really scream "Morag Tong"
Siln Tharoth's House - Move to the current location of "Morag Tong Guildhall"
Silvin Manor - Keep in current location as manor for Ilvi inlaws
Temple - Move to the countryside near Dondril
Terminus Atrus: Wizard - Keep in current location
The Fallen Moon - Not worth saving, due to the poorly concieved concept and lackluster impementation.
The Netchiman's Staff - Reuse somewhere else?
The Tower and Temple - Reuse somewhere else?
Tilmari Ovela's House - A nice interior overall, but lower class MH interiors no longer make sense under the updated concept for House Indoril. My suggestion: save the interior and convert it to a Velothi one for use in a future area.
Truvi Ovelas's House - Reuse somewhere else?
Western Guard Tower - Move to the current location of "Tilmari Ovelas's House"



Any thoughts? Am I changing too much, or have I been too conservative with maintaining Roa Dyr's current layout. Also, are we keeping the name "Roa Dyr" or changing the place to "Ilvi Manor/Castle."

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-Head of NPCs: Skyrim: Home of the Nords


Last edited by Yeti on Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:30 pm; edited 4 times in total
Post Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:16 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

I personally prefer Roa Dyr the way it is, but if it MUST change, then your map best preserves the aesthetic character.
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<~TF|> I saw the meat and I could not resist haplo
<Aeven> you couldn't resist Haplo?
<~TF|> wow that could be misquoted

<Nemon> I've never understood the way of weed

<~Haplo> I like cheese. I like cheese alot. yes. truly, in fact I love the cheese

<+SamirA> butt hat is the endgame
Post Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:29 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I actually prefer changing it, as it gives us an excuse to get rid of the worst parts of it (namely some of the odd interior concepts and the city's eastern outskirts), plus it solves the difficulties of coming up with a unified concept for the place.

Looking at my map in hindsight, I see I didn't follow Sload's "several keeps separated by canals" concept. Is that for the best?

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Post Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:33 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



What's most important is that this feel like Ilvi's personal castle and not a town (even though it should keep the name "Roa Dyr").

I think we should probably concept these castles in general first too. to what extent do they have services? do they have any particular kind of ints etc that are world building (apologists, for example)?

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Post Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:07 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

Though I'm not in this section, I did play a large role in the way Roa Dyr currently looks. Any chance I could implement these changes? Smile I feel like doing CS work again.
_________________
<~TF|> I saw the meat and I could not resist haplo
<Aeven> you couldn't resist Haplo?
<~TF|> wow that could be misquoted

<Nemon> I've never understood the way of weed

<~Haplo> I like cheese. I like cheese alot. yes. truly, in fact I love the cheese

<+SamirA> butt hat is the endgame
Post Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:18 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I don't think we've agreed on a final map yet, (I'm not entirely satisfied with the one posted above). With that said, I'd love to see some CS progress in this section again. I'll work on a new map for Roa Dyr and list the other exterior changes needed in the area and let you get to work.
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Post Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:10 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



Sload wrote:
What's most important is that this feel like Ilvi's personal castle and not a town (even though it should keep the name "Roa Dyr").

I think we should probably concept these castles in general first too. to what extent do they have services? do they have any particular kind of ints etc that are world building (apologists, for example)?
To be more specific with this post, I don't think Yeti's map is different enough from a normal town.
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Post Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:32 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

How about this map? It has one less building, at least. Smile

My interior descriptions can change into things that are less town-ish if that's one of the problems.

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Post Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:49 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

Yeti, if I want to implement this, it's useful to know what building currently houses what, and what should clearly be (re)moved.
_________________
<~TF|> I saw the meat and I could not resist haplo
<Aeven> you couldn't resist Haplo?
<~TF|> wow that could be misquoted

<Nemon> I've never understood the way of weed

<~Haplo> I like cheese. I like cheese alot. yes. truly, in fact I love the cheese

<+SamirA> butt hat is the endgame
Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:37 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

As I said in my other post, I think we should hold off implementing this until we've found consensus on what we want to go here. My apologies on the holdup, Aeven.

Can everyone (section members and anyone who happens to read this) please provide feedback here so we can start making progress? How should we distinguish this place from a regular town? How many interiors should this be? What should go in said interiors? Ect, ect.

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-Head of NPCs: Skyrim: Home of the Nords
Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:47 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bero
Reviewer
26 Sep 2007

Location: Slovakia

Smith, healer, storage area, servants and guards.
What is purpose of this castle/estate(I mean farm, mine or just trade route)?

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The trice sealed house withstands the storm.
Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:58 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
roerich
Developer
08 Feb 2010

Location: Sea of Ghosts

* Providing high walls and foundations and a sense of vertical lording over the surrounding countryside, if that is possible while still maintaining the Venitian canals and pretty lights.

* Making sure that every interior has a fiting purpose, as well as a sense of being part of a community and not just a random individual house in a city. Example: Servants sleep in one interior, work in another.
Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:02 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



Yeti wrote:
Can everyone (section members and anyone who happens to read this) please provide feedback here so we can start making progress? How should we distinguish this place from a regular town? How many interiors should this be? What should go in said interiors? Ect, ect.

This should be done as an analysis of all of these kinds of locations, not this one location.

And no, Aeven, you should not be implementing Yeti's post based only on Yeti posting it.

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Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:43 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

I didn't suggest doing that.
_________________
<~TF|> I saw the meat and I could not resist haplo
<Aeven> you couldn't resist Haplo?
<~TF|> wow that could be misquoted

<Nemon> I've never understood the way of weed

<~Haplo> I like cheese. I like cheese alot. yes. truly, in fact I love the cheese

<+SamirA> butt hat is the endgame
Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:47 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Sload wrote:
This should be done as an analysis of all of these kinds of locations, not this one location.
I tried to start a discussion about this in one of the Indoril threads, but received no replies. I thought we could use Roa Dyr as a "testing site" for determining what should go in other manor estates, thinking people might be more motivated to discuss the topic when actual CS work is involved. But I can kind of see now how the discusion could grow muddled here. We should continue it in your new thread for now.
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Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:58 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

New Map

1. Ilvi Manor
2. "Apologists" - Temple people serving the estate's religious needs
3. Dunmer Mage who serves Ilvi
4. Guard Tower
5. Dunmer Craftsmer
6. Indoril courier who serves Ilvi
7. Dunmer Smith
8. Guard Tower
9. Estate storage
10. Guard barracks tower

Blue - Keep where it is
Purple - Move existing building to new location
Green- New Building
Light Blue - Walls, gates and grates
Red - Remove

Notes:

- To seclude the manor, I've cut it off from the eastern road. With this change in mind, I think we can keep the corkbulb farm. I like the visual of a peasant farmer tilling the field in the shadow of his lord's castle.
- I think we need the siltstrider here to hook the Thirr River Valley up with the eastern transportation network.
- Roa Dyr will no longer act as the Indoril's port on the Thirr. They use Almas Thirr to ship goods. The one dock is for ships to dock at when transporting goods to the estate. The estate uses it relatively infrequently, and it will remain unoccupied in-game.

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Post Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:29 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

The issue I personally find with your layout is that is still relies on using the current implementation of Roa Dyr as a crutch. Keeping the concept of having beautiful canals, doesn't necessarily mean the preservation of their current in-game implementation. Your current proposal still very much feels like simply deleting a few buildings and adding walls to the existing town. I think the concept needs to be more imaginative beyond simply working around the existing layout.

I personally would emphasize density and verticality in our castle-estates in general (not just Roa Dyr). I think it's too early to comment on specific layouts (more discussion is probably needed to reach some sort of decision regarding what we want to do with these castle-estates in general), though if I had to come up with something, it would sorta be a weird mashup of Pyke from Game of Thrones and the Kremlin with canals, with maybe some sort of moat surrounding Ilvi Manor, which is at a higher elevation then the rest of the estate.

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-Hippocrates
Post Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:44 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I apologize if it looks like I'm jumping the gun with my silly maps. Smile

Honestly, I've been stressing out a bit about the lack of large-scale CS progress in the sections lately. I want to get to work fixing the NPCs in Roa Dyr and the surrounding area. This can't happen without a finalized exterior. At this point, I just want a plan we can all agree on that will meet both the long-term and short-term needs of our project.

My plan preserves the best parts of Roa Dyr's layout, which most people seem to love, and condenses it down to a reasonable size. Each building follows the descriptions Sload outlined in his recent thread -at least to the best of my interpretation. It has the isolated feel of an estate now, with only one road and one fast travel route leading into it. Roa Dyr will become the largest castle estate, which means it doesn't necessarily need to define all castle estates while make in the future.

Your proposal could work too, but we'd need the manpower, planning and motivation to pull it off. I'd also still like to save some of the current work (exterior or interior) from the current design.

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Post Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:05 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

There's no need to apologize, you did nothing wrong Smile

I hope I didn't sound like I was putting you down, I know you're doing your best. I definitely don't see the need to fully redo Roa Dyr, and I do want to see stuff being implemented soon. I just think we need more than just a map right now.

What I'm just worried about is people seem really hesitant to move things around. We can keep the motifs, but things will definitley need to be moved/adjusted more than simply changing the functions of existing buildings and adding walls. I don't think it's possible to keep the layout perfectly AND make it an estate-like place. As much as I like the layout too, it will be better in the long run to change it. I would personally like to see the estate more consolidated that's all. Because keeping the existing layout 1:1 still makes it still seem like a town in my opinion. From an exterior standpoint, it's not alot of work. I think it's more moving and adjusting the canals and consolidating the structures than a straight redo. But of course to do that we need a plan for the general composition of Indoril estates, which still needs discussing.

Maybe we should have a Skype Meeting where we sort out our to-dos with Indoril, because people seem more willing and focused in large group discussions, which tend to result in consensus being reached quicker than forum threads which tend to spatter after awhile.

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"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
-Hippocrates
Post Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:23 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
Maybe we should have a Skype Meeting where we sort out our to-dos with Indoril, because people seem more willing and focused in large group discussions, which tend to result in consensus being reached quicker than forum threads which tend to spatter after awhile.
This looks like a good idea. We should iron out our remaining issues with House Indoril's concept and then take a look at implementing it in the current sections.
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Post Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:28 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



I think that the big issue w/ Yeti's design, which I don't think is hard to work out, is that it uses a lot of separate buildings, which will feel like a fortified town rather than a castle. I don't think the design needs to be hugely divergent from the current layout of Roa Dyr, it just needs to be a design for a castle.

We're talking about a two cell settlement. I feel like someone could do this in the CS if they just have a list of what elements it needs to have.

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Post Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:53 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I want to note here that -- while I really like the updated Roa Dyr -- I am not quite sure whether it is where we want it to be as a castle estate, and think it may require some further minor adjustments. I apologize for not bringing this up earlier.

Specifically, I think the Ilvi manor (1) should be somewhat expanded so as to look more impressive, that the northern buildings (5-9) need to be further consolidated, possibly into the Ilvi manor, as they are currently fairly scattered individual structures, and that some Velothi cave-dwelling entrances should be added to the perimeter to hold Ilvi's slaves. (Probably just one or two entrances).

I would be willing to put together a proposal or make the changes myself. I think the changes could be made very quickly. I do not think existing interiors would require much changing -- if any at all -- to make this work.
Post Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:56 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



If I may, as a castle estate I think this may be getting too large. Early pics seemed about right to me. 4-5 interiors should be sufficient to depict a self sustaining control point and home for a lord of high stature without becoming a small town. I don't believe sload ever specifified the #of castle estates or what their size should be. Since he hasn't weighed in directly maybe he should be asked. Their size should be based on importance, in location or resource, and total #. if there are to be many they should be smaller. Personally I think 3-4 buildings beside the main residence and defensive structure should be sufficient. Maybe each should feature one additional building that is a unique in service or purpose among the others. If there are going to be many, this would keep castle estates to a reasonable size in relation to other settlements.

I agree the slave quarters could be moved to a cave dwelling outside the estate in hills, nearby fields. Also, could a guar pen could be added like the one outside OE, but smaller. If this is self sustaining it needs pack animals and transportation represented. In place of slave quarters replace with small food garden for those beside lord and servant?

Small solid walls w.o roofing might make this castle estate seem more imposing and practical. Raising the center island would also be more defensible. Walls on center island should be in position they were previously, with dock areas in less central areas, this will also make the castle estate more defensible. If I have missed something, please forgive the error as I have been absent.

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Post Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:44 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Yeah, the size of the estate is one of the things I want to adjust with the changes I suggested. I don't think large castle estates are a problem in and of themselves, but do think Roa Dyr might look a little too spread out.

As far as location goes, Roa Dyr is one of the most important castle estates, but I don't think location should be overly important in deciding the size of a castle estate. The importance -- and as such size -- of a castle estate should mostly be defined by the importance of its lord, in my opinion. As for the number of castle estates, I think Sload suggested around 6. I'd keep them under 10, certainly. So we don't have to worry too much about their size.

I think a guar pen would be a good way to fill the vacancy of the northern buildings, if they are moved, but in general I don't think we need to worry too much about ergonomics.
Currently, as far as I can see, there are no slave quarters, so none would have to be replaced.
I do not think a field would be necessary, either, though it would also be a good way to use space. Generally, castle estates would be supplied by outlying farming villages. Sieges would not be a major concern, as most castle estates would probably not have had to hold off a siege since the Tribunal came to power.

The changes you suggest in your last paragraph would require a lot of work, and I don't think they're really necessary. The MH set uses roofed walls almost exclusively, and that isn't exactly unheard of in the real world either. Castle estates don't necessarily need to be very practical either, at least as far as defence is concerned, for the reason I mentioned above. They're main roles are to look imposing and be the homes of Indoril nobles; they are more like palaces than castles.

Edit: As I touch on the more fundamental role of castle estates in general in this post, I should probably mention that that topic should really be discussed here. Actually, the New Roa Dyr Design might be a better place for this discussion, as this thread is specifically about the Indoril-Thirr section files. I could move the discussion if others think it advisable; I certainly think it should be continue in that thread.
Post Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:01 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Roa Dyr is supposed to be the largest of the Indoril Castle Estates, and a controlling fortress for Draler Ilvi on the Thirr River Valley. If you want to try making changes to it Gnomey, please keep this in mind. I'm skeptical about going under 9 interiors for this location.

Neither a field nor guar pen would fit the tone of the estate, in my opinion. The castles of the Indoril lords should appear relatively detached from the activities that their surrounding peasantry engage in.

Slave quarters could be placed in the basement of Ilvi Manor, possibly in a cavernous sub-level that uses Velothi cave dwellings.

I'm in favor of splitting this discussion off into the Roa Dyr design thread. Can someone else take care of moving the relevant posts there? I don't want to mess things up Very Happy

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Post Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:48 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I've detached the last four posts from this thread, just to provide some context to them. (After first accidentally merging them with another thread, which was kind of embarrassing).

Yeah, I'll keep the intended prominence of Roa Dyr in mind. I don't think the number of buildings should be tied to the importance of a castle-estate, though. The size of the buildings are what need to correlate. I intend to make Roa Dyr look larger, not smaller.
Post Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:14 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



I agree with both Yeti (except for # of buildings) and Gnomey on this. The estate should look as large as it is by fleshing out exterior. I agree with Yeti that the guar pen, fields and slaves should be detached from the estate itself, but related to it, in the outlying area. A practice yard with archery targets and a sparring area can be added, a shelter for goods at the south dock, the guar pen and a small garden as I suggested for those living in the interior to supplement their diet in addition to the staple crops grown in the field. I think it would also be good to see the influence of the castle estate on the land. Maybe some trees have been cleared and rocks pulled from the field. Exterior changes like these would help improve character of the landscape and increase the apparent size and power of castle-estates or settlements without adding more buildings and interiors.
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Post Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:50 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I suppose it's about time I uploaded a file to show exactly what sort of changes I was considering. These ended up being somewhat more extensive than originally planned or necessary, though. I might upload screenshots later, but for now an overhead map will have to do:



Green text indicates services, blue text indicates interiors that require no changes.

Zones:

A. Citadel - self explanatory; provides silt strider service.
B. Estate Gardens - forms the core of the estate along with the citadel. The Ilvi family's private garden. Strangers are not supposed to loiter here, or wander about without supervision and -- perhaps -- permission, but that would not be reflected in-game. The gondola docked here is Ilvi's private gondola.
C. Council Gardens - this island is reserved for visiting members of House Indoril. Strangers are not supposed to go here, but, again, that would not be enforced in-game. The gondolas parked here are to transport said visiting members of House Indoril, and could provide travel services to high-ranking Indoril players.
D. Tollmer's Yard - the vast majority of the goods passing through the estate (including prisoners) are kept here. It is considered an outlying area, not part of the estate proper.
E. Oathmer's Yard - where servants and retainers who have no business sleeping elsewhere in the estate live, and in general where servants are free to muck about, being outside of the estate proper. (So where the servants' children would play, if there were any).
F. Outsiders' Yard - Technically the only part of the estate (which it is not technically a part of) where strangers are free to loiter about as they like. Strangers are even allowed to camp here for the night, bedrolls being laid out for that express purpose. The gondola here may provide travel service.

Interiors:

1. Ilvi Residence - this probably doesn't need to change.
2. Hall of Toilmer - contains the beds of the more elevated servants (the Keeper of Delyn's Creed, some clerks, maybe scribes, etc.), perhaps some 'offices' (just desks should do) and -- possibly -- services of some description for Indoril players. (eg. a seamster)
3. Wizard's Quarters - a high-level wizard and retainer of Ilvi. May have a connection to the Temple, or a notable connection to House Indoril (minor noble or something?) or both. I personally think the NPCer can take liberties with this NPC and make him or her interesting. Should probably provide wizard-y services, not necessarily only to Indoril members. Other than removing some windows this doesn't need to change.
4. Brewery - this doesn't need to change, though it's a little odd for a brewery to be located in Ilvi's estate. I suppose either the local infrastructure is good for the purpose or Ilvi or one of his kin is a roaring drunkard. Or Ilvi and all of his kin. The butler or whatever we call her will still provide alchemy services.
5. Garrison - this tower doesn't need to change. It houses the estate's permanent garrison. Could have one or two high-level unique retainers. (Sort of like the hirelings you see in Telvanni towers). They may provide training to Indoril members.
6. Prison Tower - this doesn't need to change. (Though I did notice some vertical seams by the pillar by the stairs). Up to four prison/dock guards sleep here, as well as Eveshi Drilor, (the harbourmaster), and some kleptomaniac sleeping in the attic who is probably in charge of keeping an inventory of the goods that pass through the estate.
7. Dock Storage - this doesn't need to change; a warehouse. The kleptomaniac might be standing around here.
8. Sanctum of the Apologists - probably basically just a small shrine, likely containing a basement in which the apologists eat and sleep.
9. Servant's Hall - this doesn't need to change. The lowest servants sleep here; probably the ones who do dirty or smelly work, likely including gondoliers, of whom there may be three or four.
10. Barracks - this interior doesn't need to change. The guards here patrol and protect most of the Thirr River Region. The guard one floor over the entrance should become a quartermaster character who can buy and sell weapons and armour; only for Indoril players.
11. Hall of Delyn's Creed - essentially a miniature courtroom or audience chamber, with seating for the Keeper of Delyn's Creed, perhaps a scribe or something and seating for petitioners. The Keeper of Delyn's Creed and his staff would sleep in the Hall of Toilmer (2).
12. Slave Quarters - a Velothi cave dwelling containing mostly beds of some description for several slaves. The door should be locked.



TR_IndorilThirr_v.0070_Gnomey01.ESP
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Last edited by Gnomey on Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:58 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Based on the overhead screenshot, your redeisgn looks solid, Gnomey. I'm not sure I liked the idea of a Brewery here either. Perhaps the potter from Roa Dyr's old design would be a more fitting tradesmer to operate under Draler Ilvi's patronage.
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Post Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:17 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

I was away all week and I should have mentioned this. I think servants should live in the basement level of the main structure, rather than a separate structure. And the basement should be done in the to-be-made foundational set. Having them live in opulent-MH style buildings goes against the plan we approved for Indoril.

Also, the "Hall of Delyn's Creed" should be called the "Chapel's Entryway". Technically all Indoril above the Creedmer rank are k.C.D (the mention of Delyn's hall in my originalo proposal was a mistake). I like the idea of having a separate non-rank title for the estate's steward. Also this should be the only building outside the estate proper.

I'm also not sure about the "Court Wizard" idea. It seems like court mages are a more western concept. I always assumed the magical needs of Ilvi would be attended to by the Apologists. I could be wrong here. I'm not strongly for/against it so it could go either way.

One final nitpick is whether RD should be on a travel node. I kind of lean against it for private Indoril estates, though since RD is a major one, an exception might be made. If we keep it, I still don't think it should be freely accessible.

Everything else is solid in my eyes. Don't let my minor objections hold this up much more.

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Post Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:14 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Yeti wrote:
I'm not sure I liked the idea of a Brewery here either. Perhaps the potter from Roa Dyr's old design would be a more fitting tradesmer to operate under Draler Ilvi's patronage.


Yeah, I did like the potter interior, so I wouldn't mind using that instead. The brewery does look fairly interesting, though, so I'm conflicted as to whether we should toss it.

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
I think servants should live in the basement level of the main structure, rather than a separate structure. And the basement should be done in the to-be-made foundational set. Having them live in opulent-MH style buildings goes against the plan we approved for Indoril.


While I understand your argument, I think this building is small enough and its interior looks poor enough. Its being in the MH set should reflect more on Ilvi's wealth than the servants', as the building is his property even if it is a stand-alone structure at the edge of his estate.
I also have the more practical concern that the foundational set still needs to be made, including the two or three exterior pieces, and making it a requirement for castle estates would tighten the bottleneck on progress in Indoril lands even further.

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
Also, the "Hall of Delyn's Creed" should be called the "Chapel's Entryway". Technically all Indoril above the Creedmer rank are k.C.D (the mention of Delyn's hall in my originalo proposal was a mistake). I like the idea of having a separate non-rank title for the estate's steward. Also this should be the only building outside the estate proper.


Noted, but I'm not sure I agree with your last point; I see no reason why stuff like the dock storage and prison tower needs to be in the estate proper.
For the steward's title, we can probably go with something like Arbiter, at least until someone comes up with a better name.

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
I'm also not sure about the "Court Wizard" idea. It seems like court mages are a more western concept. I always assumed the magical needs of Ilvi would be attended to by the Apologists. I could be wrong here. I'm not strongly for/against it so it could go either way.


I'm quite against having court wizards in castle estates. He's simply a skilled retainer specializing in magic, no more a court wizard than the aforementioned Telvanni hirelings. He's more a soldier than courtier, though he could perhaps also be a resident theologian (not necessarily an apologist) or, as I mentioned, a minor noble in his own right.

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
One final nitpick is whether RD should be on a travel node. I kind of lean against it for private Indoril estates, though since RD is a major one, an exception might be made. If we keep it, I still don't think it should be freely accessible.


I actually agree that it probably shouldn't, but we have yet to update our travel networks, and I don't think we should change anything until we have concrete plans drawn up. The silt strider platform can just be a guard post, though, and the gondolas can just be pretty clutter, so it doesn't make much of a difference.
Post Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:58 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



Alright so think I initially mistunderstood that the rest of the castle estates are going to be using existing places. So these concerns arent really as important if thats the case. I'm going to leave my suggestion for this exterior anyway. I think some of the ideas about expanding the influence into surrounding exterior are worth the read.
___________________________________________________________
I'm posting my preference for this castle estate here. It also represents how I think the others should be designed. The purpose of these should be remembered, the exterior here still looks very much like a town to me. TR already has so many towns and interiors so the uniqueness of the castle estates should be very strongly emphasized, all without excess buildings and services. The proposal I have attached shows how the castle estate controls the surrounding land and is self-sufficient.

It is also at a much more reasonable size. I dont think the interiors here add enough to justify them being there. Reducing the # of buildings and expanding the castle estate exterior as suggested in this post exterior will reduce workload for all castle estates and, imo, improve quality of gameplay by not having more structures with limited purpose.



additional thoughts:

In this image lumber represents areas where trees have been cleared, the yellow square is lumber yard. Farms could potentially be very interesting. They also don't necessarily need to be row crops like they are elsewhere. We could have terraced field or rolling hills of crops. It is important to have more areas that show they are being cultivated for more contrast between really tamed areas and wilderness. Hopefully the image is self explanatory.

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Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:40 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

I think a middle ground between Sasquatch and Gnomey's proposals could be ideal. I like Sasquatch's idea of having some serfs toil around the estate, as it shows that relationship/hiearchy that we want to emphasize with House Indoril. That being said, I'd rather caution against having too much industry surrounding the manor, or it will seem more like the large plantations we have in the Hlaalu side of the river. I would still like an outlying structure for serfs to air their grievances (Chapel's Entry). The estates of the Indoril are private spaces after all, though I do agree they should be somewhat self-sufficient, especially RD, given Ilvi's isolation.

As for Gnomey's proposal, I chewed on it some more. Here are my thoughts on interiors I feel may be unnecessary. I prefer Aeven's terraced gardens over tacking on the extra buildings to Ilvi's Manor. I propose that we can work with Gnomey's file and open the Citadel area a little more again by deleting a few superflous structures. The existing Ilvi manor interior is HUGE, and I think it would be easier to make NPC/interior changes than moving the extra structures into Ilvi's island. I disagree with Yeti about the # of ints or buildings (two different things there) correlating with the importance. We can make an estate look grand without a high interior-count.

Prison - The emphasis on these estates are private spaces. I wouldn't want criminals being housed in my estate. Other chatacters mentioned for here could be elsewhere.

"Wizard" Quarters - I really like Gnomey's idea about having some residential theologian or something, it sounds much cooler than a plain wizard. They could easily live with either the Majordomo or in the manor proper.

Servant's Hall - Superflous IMO if we want to house them in the basement (which I think is a better idea). We can use the standard IND tilset for this, as I imagine the new set if made carefully will be a simple search & replace operation.

Hall of Toilmer - I had imagined that these people would reside in the Chapel's Entry. Though this does not need to be formulaic across all the other estates.

ps - The title for the stewards should be "Majordomo of the Chapel's Entry". Unless Sload thinks it's a bad idea (I think it's a cool title).

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"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
-Hippocrates
Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:06 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I unfortunately have to disagree with implementing certain features of Sasquatch's proposal.

Indoril Castle Estates should serve as the secluded residences and fortresses of local lords, who govern the lands surrounding their estate in the name of House Indoril. It is of the upmost importance that they do not look like towns or plantations, hence why we want to avoid placing fields, mines or other major resource-focused industries directly next to them.

All farming in Indoril lands should take place well away from the estate itself, on Velothi/Shack villages and farmsteads. I also simply don't see the benefit of replacing the current wilderness north of the estate with more agriculture; we have plenty of it in the area already.

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Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:59 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

I quite like Gnomey's version. It preserves what I tried to do, and improves upon it rather well.

As for the brewery, it makes Ilvi a tad more autarkic, which could be a good thing. The region provides the resources to make booze.

_________________
<~TF|> I saw the meat and I could not resist haplo
<Aeven> you couldn't resist Haplo?
<~TF|> wow that could be misquoted

<Nemon> I've never understood the way of weed

<~Haplo> I like cheese. I like cheese alot. yes. truly, in fact I love the cheese

<+SamirA> butt hat is the endgame
Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:43 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
I prefer Aeven's terraced gardens over tacking on the extra buildings to Ilvi's Manor. I propose that we can work with Gnomey's file and open the Citadel area a little more again by deleting a few superflous structures.


My main problem with Aeven's file was that the residence looked too low-key, in my opinion. It hardly dominated Roa Dyr, let alone the surrounding countryside. (I think this is mostly due to using a manor building as the residence. I would not advise doing that for future castle estates; while it may be extra work, I think we should make keeps out of several towers and buildings, which is sort of what I tried to retroactively do). As such, I do think the residence should be raised either way, as I have done. The interiors I added in the gap could indeed be replaced with terrace gardens, though.

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
The existing Ilvi manor interior is HUGE, and I think it would be easier to make NPC/interior changes than moving the extra structures into Ilvi's island.


My problem is not the size of the interior, but the size of the exterior. If the former were the only issue, I would not consider my changes necessary, but in my opinion with Indoril castle estates the exterior view is far more important than the interior.

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
Prison - The emphasis on these estates are private spaces. I wouldn't want criminals being housed in my estate. Other chatacters mentioned for here could be elsewhere.


That's why the prison is technically outside of the estate. Razz I think prisons need to be located by the castle estates for gameplay reasons. I do not think Velothi villages should have prisons, and I would really not like it if going to jail in Indoril lands would always send the player to Almalexia, or, if the player commits the crime near the border, someplace like Old Ebonheart or Firewatch.
While security is somewhat of a secondary function of castle estates, it is still a function. Castle estates would have a garrison of guards, and they would also have prisons.

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
Servant's Hall - Superflous IMO if we want to house them in the basement (which I think is a better idea). We can use the standard IND tilset for this, as I imagine the new set if made carefully will be a simple search & replace operation.


My main reason for including this building is because it has an interior which, in my opinion, looks pretty good. I would not be against getting rid of it, but I do think any MH interior we are not able to incorporate into castle estates will probably not be used anywhere else in the mod. (Some MH interiors would work for Almalexia, of course, but this isn't one of them; nor is the brewery, in my opinion).
I don't think it is really superfluous; there would be quite a lot of servants working in the castle estate, including people like clerks, and unless we significantly magnify the size of the Hall of Toilmer I think it would be rather packed.

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
Hall of Toilmer - I had imagined that these people would reside in the Chapel's Entry. Though this does not need to be formulaic across all the other estates.


Interesting; I'd assumed that the Chapel's Entry would be more of an administrative building, and it would be sort of odd to have beds in such a building, even if they are in the basement.
Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:59 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



I've made a file that incorporates all input in this thread into a reasonable compromise. It's obviously not as polished as Gnomey's and is mainly for reference. I'll upload it tomorrow.
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Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:19 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I look forward to seeing the file.

Here are some screenshots of my version:

Citadel


Estate Gardens (Only included for the sake of completeness. I haven't actually touched Aeven's work here.)


Council Gardens


Tollmer's Yard


Oathmer's Yard


Outsiders' Yard
Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:15 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



So this is really just roughed out. I had this worked up last night and made a few adjustments this morning. Main changes would be the dock area and shore. The difference between Gnomey's version and this are significant though. The current exterior looks like a city and is too spread out.

My most important point in my lat post is regarding the method used in designing settlements. The design of cities seems to stop at the edge of the buildings when really it should extend into the surrounding area. Design of most cities is currently isolated from the environment when they should be one in the same. This design seeks to do that by clearing out the land around the castle estate. I didnt add stumps or much detail to the field but these will add depth to the exterior. Part of the issue here is that heavy exterior clutter has now long been considered as a mark of quality. Yet the amount of rock and trees here only makes this all seem like forbidding wilderness. Clearing out clutter in front of castle estate will makes the exterior much more impressive and adds an element of suspense on approach. This is NOT a completed, immovable exterior, it is a concept.

-I removed some of the excessive lights
- removed buildings from shoe
-added two large towers to replace 2 small ones
-one in castle
-one on dock
-added a shed and one large building to dock
-added 2 slave shacks for field work, and a farm boss house
(guar pen should be here as well)
-added field
-added miner house where outsider area is
-removed many trees and rocks
-removed excess boats


Overall this look MUCH more like a castle and not a town and shows the surrounding land has been improved and worked.

http://i.imgur.com/wDYMrzM.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/QWchN2y.jpg?2
http://i.imgur.com/y9YvQor.jpg?2



TR_IndorilThirr_v.reference.esp
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Last edited by sasquatch2o on Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:35 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I'm a little confused, Sasquatch. Did you miss the post I made earlier? I already outlined in it reasons for not adding a field, mine or guar pen to the vicinity of Roa Dyr. Additionally, we've already decided that the Indoril do not use shacks to house their slaves. Gnomey explicitly added Velothi cave dwellings to the estate to serve that role instead.
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Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:57 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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