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sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



I dont think slave shacks or a field will make this a plantation or that that your opinion is the only one. A castle is a should help define this as a castle estate. If it looks less like a town I think its reasonable to have a small mine and a field worked by several slaves.

Also, picking up one or two issues and not commenting on the rest is unproductive. Improvement comes through discussion and exchange and revision. Ideas dont need to be offensive.

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Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:00 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Have you read the Indoril Castle-Estates thread? Most of the criticisms of your suggestion are based around ideas established in that thread, which discusses the nature of castle-estates. At the moment, I have the impression that you are discussing how to make a good castle while we are discussing how to make a good Indoril castle-estate. Aside from the names, the two are very different concepts.

A lot of the buildings you removed have specific roles in the castle-estate, and would need to be replaced. The ceremonial roles of those buildings as well as the gardens are far more important features for Indoril castle-estates than fields or the like. Castle-estates are Indoril utopias. Form over function.

Castle-estates do not need to highlight the gap between Indoril rich and poor. Castle-estates are sanctuaries for the rich; gated communities. The poor are not wanted, except to directly serve the lord. Fields and mines are not to mar the noble's view over the blessed lands of the Indoril.

I do like the clearer view of the castle estate, though I confess that I don't really see how your plugin is any less town-like than mine.
Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:19 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



I have read the castle-estate thread 4-5 times, mostly for Sload's first post. I used that and the feedback in this thread in my design. YOu wanted the less buildings and more concentrated. Aeven liked your manor and so do. Swiftoak and I wanted less buildings, me significantly less. I'd like an estate that makes sense and a more castle-like, castle. What makes the other version too much like a town is the excess of services and stores and how spread out and indefensible it is. An estate means the the resources, goods and all services, are in service to the lord of the estate. This compromise fits that much better with most building more centralized. The buildings outside the castle "interior" are all to maximize use of the land or extract resources for the lord of the estate. All resources are part of the value of the estate. Wood, water, fish and game, workable soil are all part of the value of the estate/ Many of these were previously untapped. Additional services control of trade or travel or influence should be supplemental.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_%28land%29

attached picture may explain this better:

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Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:51 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

You may notice that the terms 'castle' and 'estate' are almost never used separately in that thread, and are generally used interchangeably when they are. Castle-estates are not castles with estates, they are single entities we elected to call castle-estates, but which could just as well be called palaces. (In fact, I'd sort of rather we began calling them 'palace's instead, as I think that term would lead to less confusion).

A castle-estate contains neither a castle (in the strict sense) nor an estate (also in the strict sense). If there is an estate, in the sense of land, it would be the whole eastern half of the Thirr River Valley. Or the entire Thirr River Valley Region, as far as House Indoril is concerned.

Sload's post in that thread also only introduced the topic. Some of the later posts are very important. My post further down is probably the most comprehensive, though I'm not sure if it incorporates all of the ideas thrown around in the thread.
Post Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:20 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Going from the feedback here and on IRC, here are the changes I plan to make to my file:

I. Remove all of the buildings from the Outsiders' Yard and Oathmer's Yard:
  • 9's interior would probably replace the brewery interior. The bridge leading to the Oathmer's yard would become the Indoril entrance to the castle-estate.
  • 10 would probably be incorporated into the citadel in some way.
  • 11 will be moved to the south across the bridge. Non-Indoril would have to go through its interior to enter the castle-estate.
  • 12 would stay, but I will remove the bedrolls outside. After checking Vvardenfell, I realize a lot less settlements offered a bed than I had thought, so there is no need for castle-estates to do so.

II. Raise Ilvi's residence even more, replace the current foundation of the residence building with something else (the textures don't really match), remove the silt strider and remove the Wizard's Quarters, replacing the latter with something better.

I will also probably remove some of the excess gondolas and might see if I can tweak the surrounding landscape to make the residence more prominent without deleting any work.
Post Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:50 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



I'm hoping you'll remove many of the lights and rearrange the docks. Would make a nice sheltered area and more impressive gateway.

http://i.imgur.com/y9YvQor.jpg?2
vs
http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Gnomenator/media/Roa%20Dyr/TollmersYard.png.html

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Post Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:09 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

While I may rearrange the docks, I don't really see the need to. The docks are designed for the transport of goods, not people, so an impressive gateway wouldn't really have anyone to impress.
Edit: in general, I'd probably want to scale the dock buildings down, if anything, as they somewhat distract from the main residence.

As for the lights, while I would consider removing some of them, Roa Dyr's lights are one of its major features, to the point where they were expressly kept when Roa Dyr was changed into a castle-estate. I believe Aeven even added some more after someone asked him to do so.
Post Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:23 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



I think the dock is one of the areas that should be developed. Since this is central to the entire region a large storehouse and impressive defenses there seem perfectly fitting. The small building is storage for the docks, mid size for receiving visitors and marking cargo. The other tower could be your garrison/jail and storage. Also, since you are raising the manor even further I don't think it will detract. Without MGE you wont even see the manor from the docks.

On the lights, there are way too many. Half of these could be removed and paper lanterns would still be a major feature.

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Post Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:46 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Again, the docks would not be where visitors would be received. I might add another covered area or something for goods that arrive at the docks, and in general make the docks look a little nicer, but they don't need to look fortified or impressive.

As for the lights, I'd like to know what other people think. I personally agree some of them could be removed without losing the effect.
Post Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:11 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Roa Dyr's dock isn't really meant to look impressive. It's a place for the manor to receive supplies, not a commercial port. Almas Thirr already fills that role only a cell or two away.

I'm not sure about the lights, honestly. I would wait to ask Aeven for his thoughts on them.

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Post Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:25 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Aeven said he would be gone for ten days on IRC, but as far as the lights are concerned they can be deleted at any time, so that isn't really an issue; we can wait.
Post Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:41 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Here are some pictures Roa Dyr, especially the finished Council Garden:

If I end up applying similar changes to the Estate Garden I'll probably cut down on the undergrowth and rely more heavily on planters. I went with this overgrown look for the Council Garden to make it more secluded and private, but that would be unecessary for the Estate Garden which is already walled off.
Post Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:18 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Mwgek
Developer
11 Apr 2008



I remember that the round indoril building used here is massive poly-wise. How is the fps here.
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Post Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:23 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I'll have to check. My MGE XE setup has a pretty low framerate in exteriors, (I generally avoid combat when testing so low framerate isn't really a problem for me), but I didn't notice any further framerate drop when I went there. I wasn't keeping an eye on the numbers, though. I definitely think a low poly version of that mesh should eventually be made to replace it, though. It is currently just four rectangular buildings rotated to look like an octagon, so it could lose a lot of frames without any change to its outer appearance.
Post Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:31 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Tondollari
Developer
02 Dec 2013

Location: Louisiana

Playing with the latest section file, I noticed that from most avenues of approach, Ilvi manor is not visible until you are right in front of it, mostly because of the large trees in the way.

To get a better view, I tried disabling the following and it worked very well:

*large trees on the island
*pagoda over the fountain
*harbor storage, offices

I think it looks much more prominent without these pieces crowding it out.
Post Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:11 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Hm... I'd like to hear more opinions first, as this would be a pretty large change, but I would not be opposed to this.

If by 'the island' you meant the council garden island across the bridge from the residence, then, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't really want to remove the trees as I feel that would open the island up too much to the outside.
However, to me it sounds like you mean the island the residence is on, and on second glance I'd be all for this. The trees are superfluous in this case, as the garden is already walled in, and removing the trees might even contribute to the 'cleaner' visuals I'm aiming for with this garden.

As far as the pagoda is concerned, I could go either way. It's one of the more prominent fixtures of Aeven's version of Roa Dyr, certainly of those I haven't touched, and looks rather good, especially with the lights.
However, I have noticed that it occupies a lot of space in its small courtyard, not only obscuring the view, but also making the courtyard feel rather restricted, and making pathing difficult.
As a third option, I would consider scaling down the pagoda to something like 1.15, so that it only encloses the fountain. I might play around with this some more to see what looks best...

As far as removing the harbour buildings, I'm also of a mixed opinion. First of all I'll mention that, if those buildings get removed entirely, I'd advocate just making the whole island wilderness. Except maybe the northern pier pieces. I'm not entirely sure whether the economic aspect of the castle estate requires as much attention as the docks are currently giving it; a bunch of containers beside a skiff should really be enough.

---

Actually, I've played around a little in the CS, and figure it might be easier to just upload some pictures; no file unfortunately. (Progress not saved, as I was messing about breaking things; the garden path is, however, in the file I'm working on, but still very much a prototype).

North is to the the bottom left of the images. Note that I opened up the courtyard in front of the residence by removing a gateway which I think is unnecessary. I decided to leave in the fountain-pagoda, as without the gateway it isn't too obtrusive.



Here are some annotations to clarify the changes I would make:



And here is a variant of my proposal which I think also has its merits:

Post Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:05 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Tondollari
Developer
02 Dec 2013

Location: Louisiana

Yes I meant the manor island. The garden island looks perfect. Good call on removing the gateway. By the way, the second gateway is impossible to get through because it's set too low.

I am leaning towards the first proposal. I also think it is important that wherever the travel service is, there should be a good view of the manor.

I also think that the manor island might look better without the red & blue lights, excepting those near the canals. This might help separate the manor visually from the commercial/public areas.
Post Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:14 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



Gnomey wrote:
While I may rearrange the docks, I don't really see the need to. The docks are designed for the transport of goods, not people, so an impressive gateway wouldn't really have anyone to impress.
Edit: in general, I'd probably want to scale the dock buildings down, if anything, as they somewhat distract from the main residence.


I see you have since removed the tower added in line of sight between dock and the manor. You should open up the other side of this exterior where line of sight and suspense on approach really matter. Also why are you turning docks into a beach when you intended this place to have services and trade and frequent visitors. That area should be developed not grassy. My proposal is really superior in many ways. Although some of the gardens you have added are nice the mid island should be cut back like in my proposal for balance and the middle bridge removed to make this thing more like a fortress. Put grass on other side or clear it out for farm fields as shown in my example.

You take so much time and detail into your planning that it might actually be more of a hindrance. I notice you typically add excessive detail initially without a goo overall plan. Then continue to add minute detail over a very long span I time. IMO it would be more beneficial to do more background and story and quest planning to figure how the space will be utilized. Then create an overall layout in 10-15 min that will accommodate those needs. Then adjust, resize, fill in as needed to improve visual elements and player movement in design. This all seems too detail oriented not enough big picture. I think that is hindering your design and creative abilities.

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Post Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:53 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Ironed Maidens
Developer
23 Feb 2008



I agree, the beach doesn't need to be added, it's out of place in the region. if anything I would just add various mud textures to the shipping island along the coast of it. It's not a beach in any sense.
Post Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:56 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

sasquatch2o wrote:
You should open up the other side of this exterior where line of sight and suspense on approach really matter.


This is also worth considering. I like the attention you and Tondollari are giving to line of sight, in this particular case I'm just not sure whether we want clear line of sight of the manor from that direction. At the moment, after turning off of the mainroad, the player gets a pretty good view of the castle estate while approaching along the dirt road, especially where it straddles the lake, before shortly plunging into wilderness before arriving at the front of the estate. I think the bit of wilderness serves rather well to isolate the castle estate from civilization, as a sort of barrier of approach, along with the council garden. That is why, at the moment, I'm more in favour of keeping those trees in place.
I will probably move away the trees nearest to the council estate entrance, though, at any rate. (The four trees not located on the low ridge).

sasquatch2o wrote:
Also why are you turning docks into a beach when you intended this place to have services and trade and frequent visitors. That area should be developed not grassy.


If I've ever said it would have services and frequent visitors, I was mistaken, though I'm pretty sure I've only said the opposite. I doubt any visitors would arrive at the docks, unless you count slaves; Indoril would probably disembark on the council island. There is no reason for services to be located at the docks either; the only services in the castle-estate would be craftsmer who work for Ilvi. They would naturally be located near his residence, or if anything in workshops, though Roa Dyr currently has none of the latter. I also do not think trade should pass through Roa Dyr; Roa Dyr would act as a terminus for certain goods, but I don't think so much space is needed for such a minor role. In reality the docks have a very limited purpose, and I think they're just distracting from the actual focus -- the residence -- at the moment.
@Ironed Maidens: I'm not sure if I would make the beach sandy or not, for the reason you point out. For all intents and purposes I just mean 'natural shoreline'.

sasquatch2o wrote:
[...] the mid island should be cut back like in my proposal for balance and the middle bridge removed to make this thing more like a fortress.


Cut back for balance with what? If you mean the docks, then, as above, I'm starting to think that the docks should not be so visually significant as to require counterbalance.
As for making the manor estate more like a fortress, why does it need to be more like a fortress? That is not its role.

sasquatch2o wrote:
You take so much time and detail into your planning that it might actually be more of a hindrance. I notice you typically add excessive detail initially without a goo overall plan. Then continue to add minute detail over a very long span I time.


I'll be the first to say that I do not work very efficiently, but so far I have found this approach to be that best suited to me. When I have a clear idea of what I want to create -- for example a garden -- I am able to work very quickly. At other times, though, I have the modder's equivalent of writer's block, and it takes a very long time for me to do even rather simple detailing.
As such, whenever I have a concrete idea, I prefer to just go ahead and implement it when it's fresh, rather than sitting on it and having my idea run away on me. I naturally don't do this if it requires removing a bunch of stuff that would be difficult to replace, which is why I'm neither going to remodel the docks nor remove most of the trees on the approach to the castle estate before those ideas have had more time to circulate and be discussed.
I also, as I've mentioned before, don't mind redoing such work if a better idea comes along. I've had to redo a lot of work since I started modding for Morrowind, and by this point, while I don't always like to do it, I just see it as an opportunity to better implement my idea, or I just leave the idea to the side to be used elsewhere, or just content myself in having seen it implemented, even if not in the final product.
For the most part, though, I don't think I've had to redo much in this particular instance, at least of my own work. I've mostly been adding stuff and moving stuff around; I don't think I've spent too many hours working on stuff that got cut afterwards, though naturally that could still change.

sasquatch2o wrote:
IMO it would be more beneficial to do more background and story and quest planning to figure how the space will be utilized. Then create an overall layout in 10-15 min that will accommodate those needs. Then adjust, resize, fill in as needed to improve visual elements and player movement in design. This all seems too detail oriented not enough big picture. I think that is hindering your design and creative abilities.


Actually, I agree with you here. I think the castle estates should each have planning threads and be discussed at length before we implement anything, and in fact was not completely comfortable with Roa Dyr being worked on without such prior discussion, though I do understand why people decided to go ahead and work on it.
However, as I see it at this point Roa Dyr is pretty much a prototype for the other castle estates, and I think this approach of tossing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks works just as well. As far as my design and creative abilities are concerned, I actually find that this approach is very enjoyable, as it allows me to try out a lot of things I would not be able to if everything were strictly planned out. Though conversely that does naturally mean that a lot of my work will not end up getting used, at least in its initial form. (See the aborted residence foundation in the old version of Roa Dyr linked below. I liked the idea, and spent quite a bit of a day implementing it, but came to the conclusion that it was silly and unworkable and discarded it in favour of the current design).
I would certainly advocate the approach you suggest for other castle estates, and would still be willing to switch over to that approach if everyone else thinks that would be better, but so far it seems to me as though most are fine with how this thread is trundling along, or at least could not be bothered to post otherwise.

Edit: didn't proofread my post thoroughly enough before posting; minor adjustments here and there.



TR_IndorilThirr_v.0075-abort-badfoundation.ESP
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Post Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:24 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I am not currently able to dedicate the time necessary to make inform comments on the various details being discussed here. I will say that I tend to trust Gnomey when it comes to stylistic choices. In regards to the docks, I prefer the first screenshot he posted. Also, I don't think the pagoda is problematic.
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Post Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:46 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Theo
Developer Emeritus
16 Dec 2004

Location: PRAGUE

This is just my 2 cents, but regarding the docks area I think the estate would benefit visually from not being so open in the direction to the docks. By creating another walled area in there you would underline even more the secluded nature of the central garden and the canalesque nature of the adjacent distributary.

Thematically I have a following idea: The original estate built by Ilvi's ancestors was originally located on this little island, until his grandgrandfather expanded the estate to the greater island and relocated the main residence there.

The old estate used to serve as an http://dictionary.reverso.net/german-english/Altenteil%20Fehmarn for family elders. Currently it may be unoccupied, but maintained in inhabitable state as a residence for Ilvi's ancestors. There can be family catacombs in the basements.

This practice is an old family tradition and may or may not be with harmony with official temple doctrine and practice regarding ancestral worship, so a little theological conflict can be hanging in the air.

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Post Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:50 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Hm... I'll have to think some more on that. I could certainly add a low wall on the dock island facing the estate; I rather like the idea. I'm not sure if I'd want to add another MH building on the dock island, if that's what you were suggesting, but I might be able to get an ancestral tomb with a fancy entrance to work, which could then be tied in to ancestor worship.

However, I'm not sure how well the concept of the Altenteil as such works for Indoril. I'd think Ilvi's extended family (insofar as they have not established residences of their own, such as in Almalexia) would just live in Ilvi's residence with him. I'd imagine that, due to the tribal nature of (most of) Dunmer society, especially the Indoril, family groups would be very close-knit, so there would be no need for either the son to assert independence from his elder, nor for the elder to maintain independence from his son, which seems to me at first glance to be the purpose behind the Altenteil.

I'm also not sure if practicing ancestor worship would be a problem, unless more recent dead are being kept in the ancestral tomb rather than contributing to Ghostgate. If it spills over into Daedra worship it may turn heads, certainly. I suppose a more subtle 'conflict' could work, in which Ilvi is not technically behaving like a heretic or anything, but just seems to act backwards to his peers; maybe even coming off as a little funny in the head to them or something. But even then I'm not sure if Ilvi is the best character to use for that purpose.
Post Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:33 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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