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Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

For more than a decade, Tamriel Rebuilt has been a project dedicated to extending and expanding the game world of Morrowind in a manner consistent with the themes, tones, and back story of the original game - as we have often said, "as Bethesda would have done it." As a fan project which has grown, changed, and learned as it has gone through the process of developing this content, our understanding of what this means has evolved over the years.

Once, there was a time when Tamriel Rebuilt interpreted our self-imposed mandate to mean including every town in Arena, under such wonderfully inspired names as "Reich Parkeep," "Karththor Dale" (double th in the original) and "Green Heights." Once there was a time when Tamriel Rebuilt interpreted our mandate to mean we couldn't raise land higher than Red Mountain (because it is alleged to be the second highest mountain in Tamriel), that we couldn't use ash or Sixth House or ancient stronghold assets on the Mainland (because of some throwaway lines of dialogue), and so on.

What we've realized, though, is that our commitment to creating this game world "as Bethesda would have done it" requires something much more than scouring every line in every book and dialog topic for tiny statements that we could blow up into strict edicts of fact. What it requires is a commitment to the high caliber of storytelling, world-building, and art that makes Morrowind the game we all love so long after its release. Moreover, we have discovered that some aspects of the original content are actually very limiting on our ability to achieve our goal, and that we must sacrifice strict adherence to the literal content of Morrowind to maintain the integrity of our commitment to the themes, narratives, and lore of Morrowind.

These are mainly aspects of the game which have their origin in its limitations. Surely no one believes that if Morrowind were set in all of Morrowind and not only Vvardenfell, it would have one version of each faction on Vvardenfell and another version off of the island. The quarantine, similarly, is a small line of dialogue in order to justify the player's inability to leave the island, not some integral narrative element that makes the game what it is. In time, Tamriel Rebuilt will make these small changes for the sake of a better final product.

We believe it is vital to treat the province of Morrowind as a single gameworld, a vision that requires the integration of vanilla content. To do otherwise means artificially separating vanilla content from our lands and thus breaking the illusion that Morrowind exists as a single unified fantasy experience. For example, keeping the content of Tribunal separate from the larger city of Almalexia constrains our ability to portray it as the cultural center of House Indoril. What sense does it make for the heart of Great House Indoril's city, the Mournhold of Tribunal, to have not one single member of House Indoril walking its streets, and instead house dozens of outlanders? To fully take advantage of Morrowind as a storytelling and world-building platform, we feel we must modify Bethesda's original material to fit alongside our own. There must be one Morrowind, not "Vvardenfell, Mournhold, and everything else."

All of that said, we wish to summarize our intentions as follows:

  • We intend to avoid conflict with other mods whenever possible, and we do not intend to remove original content without replacing it. This policy is important to us, as we do not want to discourage people from downloading and using Tamriel Rebuilt.
  • Mournhold as depicted in Tribunal will not be a part of Tamriel Rebuilt's final product. We intend to re-implement its content in time in the main world space, but not in an identical arrangement to its depiction in Tribunal. While Tribunal functioned as a stand-alone world space, it does not meet the needs of our project.
  • We have found a way to disable the Dark Brotherhood attack script without creating load error incompatibility with any other mod or save game. We will enable this in the first release of TR_Mainland.esm to contain Almalexia. Any character which has already been attacked by the Dark Brotherhood will still be able to access Tribunal's Mournhold, and a plug-in will be distributed with the release that re-enables the Dark Brotherhood attacks script.
  • Over time, similar policies which change vanilla and increase incompatibility with other mods will be announced. While Tamriel Rebuilt does not enjoy being incompatible with other mods, please recognize that Tamriel Rebuilt is the most extensive modification to the world space that exists for Morrowind and it cannot be universally compatible with all modifications.


We have one last point. Over the years, Tamriel Rebuilt has changed, but so too has the larger modding community. There was a time that Tamriel Rebuilt could not be discussed on the official forums because of flame wars initiated by people who had nothing better to do than to tear down a hobbyist project because its goals were unrealistic. Now, Tamriel Rebuilt is widely recognized as one of the most important mods that exists for Morrowind. Please continue to put your trust in us as we attempt to steer our project toward even greater things.

_________________
"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
-Hippocrates
Post Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:18 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
greendogo
TR Tester
29 Mar 2008

Location: Land of Oz

Question, because I'm still not clear on the matter: When you disable Tribunal's DB attack scripts, does this mean eventually TR will have it's own way of implementing the Tribunal Main Quest?

Are you getting rid of the fake-exterior sections of Mournhold in a way that you can still integrate the Tribunal main quest into them without needing access to the fake exterior sections? Personally, this would seem to be the best of both worlds.

_________________
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hmmmm... I should have looked at this guys DA gallery before posting a link to it... he likes horses... a little too much
Post Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:39 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

Yes, we'll have our own way of implementing Tribunal. The Fake exterior will exist for now to preserve compatibility in the short term (while we work on TR), but our eventual goal is to supersede Tribunal if you play TR. We will provide opt-in access to Bethesda's Mournhold until we finish Almalexia/TR in which we would then disable access permanently (as Tribunal's content would be implemented in our worldspace).
_________________
"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
-Hippocrates
Post Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:45 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
greendogo
TR Tester
29 Mar 2008

Location: Land of Oz

That's amazing, I'm so happy to hear that.
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http://tristikov.deviantart.com/art/G-Dunmer-wit-Siltstridaz-dawg-28071455
hmmmm... I should have looked at this guys DA gallery before posting a link to it... he likes horses... a little too much
Post Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:52 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
DMKW
Member
28 Feb 2004

Location: Ontario, Canada

This is excellent news. The Tribunal expansion would have always felt out of place within TR. It just doesn't compare in terms of scope. To be fair though, none of the original content will compare in terms of scope. It was sort of hinted at in the OP but unfortunately, Morrowind, being confined to Vvardenfell, has always caused TR to make major leaps in continuity, in order for things to make sense. I can remember reading through all the Great House Telvanni discussions back in the day, and how it can be possible to have two Arch-Magisters, etc. What a mess.
The other landmass mods have always had an advantage in the fact that they can create content for their whole province, while TR has been confined to working around the original game.
Maybe its wishful thinking but my hope is that Vvardenfell will eventually be scraped and re imagined much like Tribunal. Great houses, quilds, quests, armours and items could cross borders. Not just from TR but from other Province mods as well. Telvanni Magisters and their towers would not all have to be confined to the mainland, Dres slavers could be found selling slaves in Sadrith Mora. The possibilities are endless.
I don't mind that content is always being changed and added and removed and changed again. This mod has always just improved and its been a pleasure to follow its progress for so many years.
No one can take away the original game and its content. TR is just a mod. It can be turned off and on at will. Nothing is lost but so much can be gained.
I don't know if TR will ever be completed (in terms of all of Tamriel, I mean) but I still love being along for the ride.
Good luck! Can't wait to see what you do with Mournhold.
Post Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:29 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Melchior Dahrk
Developer
28 Nov 2008

Location: Outer Realms

I really am excited to see TR's Mournhold without any self imposed limitations on creativity and innovation.
Post Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:08 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Arizzi
Member
11 Dec 2010



I'm so happy to hear this, I think this is exactly the direction TR should be going. I can't wait to see what you guys come up with.
Post Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:30 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Kinch
Member
24 May 2014



Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:

We believe it is vital to treat the province of Morrowind as a single gameworld, a vision that requires the integration of vanilla content.


I'm a little nervous as to how this may come off, but I'm asking as someone with zero experience in modding, TESCS, et cetera, not an ungrateful, naive, and/or impatient fanboy: is this decision expected to affect rate of productivity? I mean, besides the philosophical justifications in the Statement itself, this sounds like a very practical move to me, as the alternative sounds like a love letter to proverbial development hell. (Please don't misinterpret this! I'm new here! I want to help! Don't eat me!)
Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:36 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



I don't understand your question kinch.
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Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:50 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

I think he's asking if our commitment to changing vanilla content will lead to more or less productivity/work we need to do.
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Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:15 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



I don't think its possible to judge that. Tamriel Rebuilt's conception of what it means to be finished is shifting and variable and ultimately unimportant.
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Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:23 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
DianaRose
Member
18 Jun 2014



I registered today to make this post.

First of all I'm astonished by all the amazing work put into TR, as a ridiculous lore buff I wish to say thank you for all of this!

Considering your new (and much needed) direction, I do have to wonder if you're going to make any special efforts in regard to save game compatibility when these massive changes take place. I've recently been back to doing marathon sessions of Morrowind and would love a guarantee that I can take my current character through everything you have in store.

Furthermore, will any effort be made toward working with other modders regarding compatibility? Besides TR there are some mods I've been using for years that I can't imagine playing Morrowind without, such as BTB's edited version of Xiran's Better Music System, which from my understanding relies on very specific scripts to play different pieces of music in different areas. This has been a non-issue with the separate mainland landmass, as the mod simply reverts to the default music folder if one is in an area lacking scripts, but I'm anticipating a major headache once entire cells from the base game are removed or drastically altered.

All that said, whatever happens to other mods or even save games as a result of this bold new direction will, in my eyes, end up being irrelevant compared to the wonders that await (although it would be nice to keep my current Morrowind setup running smoothly.)

Once again, THANK YOU! The dedication to this project exemplifies the power this game's world still has over people after so many years.
Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:53 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bero
Reviewer
26 Sep 2007

Location: Slovakia

We won't remove nor alter tribunal. Only thing we remove is way to get (if you want to go to old tribunal you have to use coc) there and therefore TR should be compatible with old saves.
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Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:02 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
DianaRose
Member
18 Jun 2014



Bero wrote:
We won't remove nor alter tribunal. Only thing we remove is way to get (if you want to go to old tribunal you have to use coc) there and therefore TR should be compatible with old saves.


That's a relief! So the plan is to tuck the "official" Mournhold under the rug and not delete it? That's pretty clever. I'm still concerned about how drastic changes to existing cells, such as the hinted-at changes to Vvardenfell in the future could affect save compatibility and scripting from other mods, though.
Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:34 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Bero
Reviewer
26 Sep 2007

Location: Slovakia

Changes to Vvardenfell are far far away.
_________________
Completed Morrowind Interiors: 47
The trice sealed house withstands the storm.
Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:51 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Ultrayoba
Member
18 Jun 2014

Location: Russia

What about the Official Add-Ons? Like Siege at Firemoth, which adds the island. It would be cool if they were converted and added to the TR as the Tribunal
Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:58 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
cabal
Member
25 Sep 2011



I have mixed feelings about TR messing with vanilla content. On the one hand, it allows for greater consistency and logic by doing things like merging the mainland and Vvardenfell branches of the factions. On the other hand, the ideas relating to Mouths posted here are never stated or implied in vanilla and implementing them would require rewriting significant portions of the House Telvanni quest line. Basically, I'm worried that too many things will be changed and it won't be Morrowind anymore.
Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:04 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

To expand on Morrowind, we cannot rely simply on what is stated in-game. We must be allowed to take some creative liberties regarding concepts, and that often means making adaptations and adding new twists. I don't think personally the idea regarding Mouths is a bad one, since IMO it expands on Telvanni's weirdness/character. We'll also able to incorporate stuff that wasn't really used in the original game like the Dust Adepts, which will probably be playing a role in the questline. We're going to have to rewrite the questlines anyways when we start adapting them to take place across the entire province. We will do so in a responsible way though, and I hope you can trust our ability to keep within the spirit of Morrowind.

But I understand others' opinions and tastes may vary. (I mean not everyone was happy with the original game, and not everyone will necessarily like the direction we take with the story.) That document you refer to is just early brainstorming, and by no means a concrete plan. We won't be doing anything with Telvanni for the foreseeable future, as reworking it would require a significant amount of time (notwithstanding the fact that if we did, we'd basically remove a good chunk of what is actually playable at TR right now). Things could change substantially between now and whenever we get to working on it.

In any case, if you have any ideas, you're welcome to post them in the brainstorming threads!

_________________
"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
-Hippocrates


Last edited by Swiftoak on Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:37 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Ultrayoba
Member
18 Jun 2014

Location: Russia

cabal wrote:
I have mixed feelings about TR messing with vanilla content. On the one hand, it allows for greater consistency and logic by doing things like merging the mainland and Vvardenfell branches of the factions. On the other hand, the ideas relating to Mouths posted here are never stated or implied in vanilla and implementing them would require rewriting significant portions of the House Telvanni quest line. Basically, I'm worried that too many things will be changed and it won't be Morrowind anymore.


But otherwise will not work. Will be difficult to connect the history of the continent and the island. By the way, look at the map island. Red Mountain - the second largest on the continent. But in the game it is not above the hill!
Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:35 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
cabal
Member
25 Sep 2011



Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
To expand on Morrowind, we cannot rely simply on what is stated in-game. We must be allowed to take some creative liberties regarding concepts, and that often means making adaptations and adding new twists. I don't think personally the idea regarding Mouths is a bad one, since IMO it expands on Telvanni's weirdness/character. We'll also able to incorporate stuff that wasn't really used in the original game like the Dust Adepts, which will probably be playing a role in the questline. We're going to have to rewrite the questlines anyways when we start adapting them to take place across the entire province. We will do so in a responsible way though, and I hope you can trust our ability to keep within the spirit of Morrowind.

To clarify, I don't have a problem with expanding the role of Mouths or creating new lore out of whole cloth to fill in the blanks. My problem is with rewriting existing lore. From what I've seen, many of the TR developers main issue with Oblivion and Skyrim is that they do just that. Mouths having their personalities replaced by their patron's is not consistent with what is seen in Morrowind. Raven Omayn does not display the blatant misandry that Dratha does, for example.

Adding the Dust Adepts, changing and adding quests to take you to the new places without changing the overall plot, putting Mournhold in the TR worldspace, or altering the main quest so you have to get the approval of houses Indoril and Dres are fine. Those are integration and expansion. Changing the Mouths so significantly is simply worrying to me. It's a bigger change in the way the game plays out than making Divayth Fyr an ordinary Telvanni councilor rather than a five thousand year old badass would be.
Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:48 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Sload
Developer Emeritus
06 Feb 2005



Tamriel Rebuilt is committed not to any particular, trivial detail of "lore" but to the thematic and narrative tones of TESIII. Some small tidbits of how things worked in the original game may change as we develop a much larger and more in-depth story. Tamriel Rebuilt is creating an entirely different game, on a very different scale, so of course the game will play out differently. The House questlines, for example, will not follow anything close to the same plots that they followed in the original game because they will take place primarily on the mainland and feature a different, larger set of characters.

This is really not the thread to discuss any specific quest or NPC proposal.

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Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:56 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Telvanni wizards originally wore bugs. In Morrowind they just stand about in robes.
Morrowind's characterization of House Telvanni was not necessarily the best or -- odd as it is to say -- even most Morrowind-like portrayal of House Telvanni.

Will we change that characterization massively? That is unclear. As Swiftoak pointed out, the thread you linked was a brainstorming thread, not a statement of vision.
Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:01 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
cabal
Member
25 Sep 2011



Sload wrote:
Tamriel Rebuilt is committed not to any particular, trivial detail of "lore" but to the thematic and narrative tones of TESIII. Some small tidbits of how things worked in the original game may change as we develop a much larger and more in-depth story. Tamriel Rebuilt is creating an entirely different game, on a very different scale, so of course the game will play out differently. The House questlines, for example, will not follow anything close to the same plots that they followed in the original game because they will take place primarily on the mainland and feature a different, larger set of characters.

Fair enough. I suppose I just don't want change for the sake of change. I think that if something is going to be changed there should be solid reasons for doing so, not just because the devs feel like it. TR has been more like an expansion than a mod so far and the difference in direction is a little jarring. I'll still play it and I'll probably enjoy how it turns out, it's just very different from the stance TR has taken in the past.
Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:09 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
dagon123
Member
23 Nov 2009

Location: In a the center of the universe

Funny its people like you guys that make me keep coming back to play morrowind sometimes even starting a new game whenever you guys release a new part of the map. But iv'e been watching and reading what you guys doing to morrowind with all claims and planing for about back when you guys were still doing that hammerfall oblivion mod.And what worries me it this what all you guys are planing seem a little to much like changing some of morrowinds quests and stuff in the future. seem this might intrudes a lot of new bugs and problems some conflicting with mods and now basicley scarping the old Almalexia city with a new Exterior version of mournhold thats is kenda ganna be differnt. i like that new design alot but all those years of making almalexia xity to now scrap it and how ganna take a whole new few 3 or so year to release possibly. you guys actully think you can all of this big plan off without abandening the whole project. I just want to be alive when these whole project gets finished of at least for almalexia the heartlands and veloth and the next one. but i hope you guys good luck with this new vision.
Post Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:33 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Melchior Dahrk
Developer
28 Nov 2008

Location: Outer Realms

I apologize for the OT, but is there any discussion or document I could be linked to on the topic of the Dust Adepts sub-faction? I've always been interested in that helm and what it implies.
Post Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:26 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

cabal wrote:
Fair enough. I suppose I just don't want change for the sake of change. I think that if something is going to be changed there should be solid reasons for doing so, not just because the devs feel like it. TR has been more like an expansion than a mod so far and the difference in direction is a little jarring. I'll still play it and I'll probably enjoy how it turns out, it's just very different from the stance TR has taken in the past.


In the long term, TR will neither be a mod nor an expansion, but rather a reimagination/total-conversion of Morrowind had the game shipped with the whole province (probably retaining some sort of depencency on original game assets). There's a very crucial distinction between them. Our previous stance of simply adding ontop of the base content without modifying it has been problematic on many fronts, which is why we decided to change it. Because if we don't, it will be Vvardenfell and TR, not Morrowind. In order to ensure a consistent narrative and play experience, we must reimagine the source material to match the larger world.

While TES3's main themes and narratives are farily solid, alot of the faction quests (mostly Great Houses) did not have that same sense of narrative due to their fairly rushed interpretation (an effect of deadlines/small team/budget). That's partially why mods such as Pax Redoran or RoHT currently exist. So while the source material can be used as a reference, it cannot be stated as a solid fact. Simply projecting the original source material 1:1 over a larger worldpsace and adding stuff on top of it will not work, due to the fact that alot of the implementation of those questlines were limited due to budgetary/time constraints, rather than conceptual ones. Sometimes small changes are necessary to improve implementation the narratives and themes in the game.

TES is fantasy after all, and naturally many different interpretations would co-exist in a world as grand as Tamriel. (I mean Bethesda contradicts themselves on a far larger scale than what we plan to do). Much like the Game of Thrones TV show is an adaptation of the original source material, but not necessarily a 1:1 copy. It can and will make deviations. In a similar fashion, we are adapting Morrowind's world and narrative themes over a larger worldspace (the entire province), rather than copying Vvardenfell's in-game implementation to the letter.

As for the nature of these changes, I don't expect them to be grand. We will certainly take our time planning everything first this time. We are not going to just do things because we feel like it. These changes will be discussed openly on a case-by-case and you will definitely be welcome to participate in these discussions. I also don't expect these changes to happen for quite some time. We will do our best to avoid any incompatibilities, though if and when they do arise we will inform and work with the community to mitigate any potential fallout from any such things. Again, these are very long-term goals, so for now save/mod compatibility will not be an issue for players in the forseeable future.

_________________
"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
-Hippocrates
Post Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:31 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Ragox
Developer
20 Jul 2013



I never really understood the fanatic focus on mod compatibility and the no changes to vanilla stuff mentality.

So we can finally connect the ports to the mainland now? Smile

A simple change like that would already greatly improve the overall integrity and immersion of TR, in my opinion.

I'd also love to see quests that play through both areas for example.
Post Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:40 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Anhaedra
Member
24 Jun 2014

Location: Hereabouts

Registered to post this.

I have mixed feelings about the change in policy. On the one hand, a more integrated world would certainly be welcome and I imagine could improve the quality of the game substantially. On the other, there's a not-insignificant part of me who can't help but feel worried. I only hope the crew shows restraint in changing standing lore, and doesn't override anything too substantial in the long run.

Mod compatibility worries me too. I don't terribly fancy playing either vanilla morrowind or tamriel rebuilt. I quite enjoy TR as an expansion as opposed to a conversion. Would it be at all possible for the older versions to remain available in the future? I suppose I could always just save them for personal use.

Sorry if I sound whiny. I love all the work you guys do and have faith in your ability to breath new life into Morrowind. Keep up the good work! Smile

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cookie16
Developer
27 Oct 2012

Location: The Great White North

Anhaedra wrote:
Registered to post this.

I have mixed feelings about the change in policy. On the one hand, a more integrated world would certainly be welcome and I imagine could improve the quality of the game substantially. On the other, there's a not-insignificant part of me who can't help but feel worried. I only hope the crew shows restraint in changing standing lore, and doesn't override anything too substantial in the long run.

Mod compatibility worries me too. I don't terribly fancy playing either vanilla morrowind or tamriel rebuilt. I quite enjoy TR as an expansion as opposed to a conversion. Would it be at all possible for the older versions to remain available in the future? I suppose I could always just save them for personal use.

Sorry if I sound whiny. I love all the work you guys do and have faith in your ability to breath new life into Morrowind. Keep up the good work! Smile


It will most likely be quiet a while before we release a version that touches Tribunal and even longer before any of the Mainland get touched.
Post Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:35 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Theminimanx
Lead Developer
26 Jan 2014

Location: GMT +1

This is a very good thing. Tamriel Rebuilt is probably the most ambitious mod project with an actual chance of completion I have ever seen, and it's good to know your vision won't be limited by religiously adhering to compatibility. *cough*ports*cough*

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
Once there was a time when Tamriel Rebuilt interpreted our mandate to mean we couldn't raise land higher than Red Mountain (because it is alleged to be the second highest mountain in Tamriel


Does this mean Red Mountain itself will be raised as well for consistency? I don't know how far you can see with the graphics extender, but it would be pretty cool to look out over the inner sea, and see Red Mountain towering over Vvardenfell.
Post Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:48 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Matin Sanguine
Developer
22 Aug 2012

Location: Australia

Theminimanx wrote:
This is a very good thing. Tamriel Rebuilt is probably the most ambitious mod project with an actual chance of completion I have ever seen, and it's good to know your vision won't be limited by religiously adhering to compatibility. *cough*ports*cough*

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
Once there was a time when Tamriel Rebuilt interpreted our mandate to mean we couldn't raise land higher than Red Mountain (because it is alleged to be the second highest mountain in Tamriel


Does this mean Red Mountain itself will be raised as well for consistency? I don't know how far you can see with the graphics extender, but it would be pretty cool to look out over the inner sea, and see Red Mountain towering over Vvardenfell.


TR is defintely not going to be modding the Red Mountain anytime soon (we keep editing of vanilla content to an absolute minimum, plus it's a large workload over a minute detail). What the quote was referring to was how in the past TR restricted our decision-making process due to minute scraps of lore/original content, even if such a restriction (in specific instances) greatly hampered the ability of TR to carry out our vision due to largely throwaway pieces of lore/content (such as names/locations of settlements on the mainland being based on initial concept work by Bethesda during the initial development of Morrowind, as well as downright archaic stuff from Arena.)

Which isn't to say we completely disregard all pieces of lore/original content, but merely that we don't feel the need to slavishly bound ourselves to any said pieces that are seen to be both of low-importance (essentially throwaway one liners of lore and such), and hampering/degrading TR's design process.

As for actually seeing the Red Mountain, it's doable with a graphics extender, though it would have to be done at very large distances.

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Post Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:04 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Annon
Developer
21 Dec 2004

Location: Sweden

Theminimanx wrote:

Does this mean Red Mountain itself will be raised as well for consistency? I don't know how far you can see with the graphics extender, but it would be pretty cool to look out over the inner sea, and see Red Mountain towering over Vvardenfell.


There is a mod out there that does that: http://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/42125/?
Post Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:49 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
RyanS
Lead Developer
19 Aug 2013

Location: California

Annon wrote:

There is a mod out there that does that: http://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/42125/?


Sadly I believe that mod is incompatible with TR. It messes with many rocks and formations on the mainland, even covering cities, from what I heard.

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Post Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:41 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Theminimanx
Lead Developer
26 Jan 2014

Location: GMT +1

RyanS wrote:
Annon wrote:

There is a mod out there that does that: http://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/42125/?


Sadly I believe that mod is incompatible with TR. It messes with many rocks and formations on the mainland, even covering cities, from what I heard.


Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. I knew the mod existed, but I didn't know how compatible it is with other things. Which is why I was hoping for TR to do something similar.
Still, I completely understand why they wouldn't want to.
Post Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:47 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

I don't think it's the mod itself that is incompatible. I recall using this once in my modded install with TR. It's a few mesh replacers that cause the conflict, since an optional component of the modification is a rock repalcer that replaces a few AI rocks to look more jagged. They're completely remodeled, and while this is accounted for in the vanilla game, it doesn't extend to TR.

I don't recall or have the time to figure out which NIFs are affected, but I think it's only 3-4 meshes. look for terr_AL_rock_xx i think. The mod itself with TR is fine, it's just those replacers.

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Post Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:50 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Theminimanx
Lead Developer
26 Jan 2014

Location: GMT +1

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
I don't think it's the mod itself that is incompatible. I recall using this once in my modded install with TR. It's a few mesh replacers that cause the conflict, since an optional component of the modification is a rock repalcer that replaces a few AI rocks to look more jagged. They're completely remodeled, and while this is accounted for in the vanilla game, it doesn't extend to TR.

I don't recall or have the time to figure out which NIFs are affected, but I think it's only 3-4 meshes. look for terr_AL_rock_xx i think. The mod itself with TR is fine, it's just those replacers.


Hmm, judging by filenames, there seem to be a few meshes (such as PLX_MRM_Apel_01.nif) made specifically for this mod. Would it be safe to only install the new meshes/textures, and not overwrite any of the old ones?
Post Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:30 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

According to the readme page on the mod site, ONLY replace the following in addition to installing the PRX Meshes:

terrain_rock_rm_14.nif
terrain_rock_rm_15.nif
terrain_rock_rm_17.nif
terrain_rock_rm_19.nif

This means Red Mountain will still be spikey, but not the ashlands. And we don't use RM rocks in TR anyways, so it should be good. A small sacrifice that will allow it to be run with TR in my opinion (having spikey rocks everywhere seems a little jarring for me personally).

The PRX_ meshes are not used in TR and are not replacers, so you can install those just fine.

Edit: Also forgot to note, that regardless, the aforementioned issues don't pop up in our current Mainland since we don't have any ashlands in the playable release. It's more of an issue with our later areas in our Alpha.

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Post Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:39 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Ghills
Member
21 Dec 2009



This change is very disappointing to me.
I would much rather have questlines that flesh out the quarantine and the resulting power struggle.

TR was always a safe mod that could enhance but not detract from my gameplay. I was very happy with it because it was one mod I didn't really have to troubleshoot. And it had the potential to tell very different stories. Different Houses involved in a new kind of power struggle after the quarantine left a power vacuum. The Guilds, which are empire-wide, dealing with losing people when the quarantine was announced. But now it sounds like we're not going to get that - it'll just be the same story as before.

Plus,the policy change sounds like TR will eventually change all of the Houses and Guilds - but I already have mods that change the Houses and Guilds. TR now has the potential to conflict with a significant chunk of my mod list, and in a choice between my carefully sorted 150+ mods and TR...the 150+ mods are going to win. There's no way I'm troubleshooting that many potential conflicts again.

It feels like the TR team has taken the boring way by choosing to modify the mainland instead of adding story and plot to make the quarantine feel real. And at some point it's going to either cause mod conflicts I have to fix or make me drop TR.

Since you're going ahead with this - could you please mention it at the top of whatever release begins modifying the island? I want to know before I download.

DMKW wrote:
It was sort of hinted at in the OP but unfortunately, Morrowind, being confined to Vvardenfell, has always caused TR to make major leaps in continuity, in order for things to make sense. I can remember reading through all the Great House Telvanni discussions back in the day, and how it can be possible to have two Arch-Magisters, etc. What a mess.


Not really.

Touch on the power vacuum and it's knockon effects in the questlines, and at the end the PC is confirmed as the 'Mainland Arch-Magister' or 'Arch-Magister's Representative' or something. All it takes is a title change and some dialogue during the questlines. That preserves lore and mod compatibility, as well as possibly being easier than messing around with the existing content. It's certainly easier than rewriting the enter House questline.
Post Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:57 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Hemitheon
Reviewer
11 Aug 2006

Location: Necrom, Ra'athim Manor

From what I've read, I don't think TR plans to redo the entirety of Vvardenfell, only redo some things for the sake of immersion, cohesion, and unity of game experience. I can understand many people's desire to protect the game, after all you have to really love it to still be playing it 12 years after release. However, the previous standard of tiptoeing to the line of the vanilla game just never worked. You are named Grandmaster of House Telvanni, then you go to Port Telvannis and they have to translate your vanilla standing into TR standing. It's a mess. All for the sake of not messing with original material. However, imagine starting in Sadrith Mora, working up the ranks, from minor figure dealing with Vvardenfell issues to moving to Port Telvannis and dealing with the larger intrigues of the House: a seamless transition. It's better to sew the two pieces (vanilla and TR) together so the seam is straight than just have a giant patch over it.

The one house I wonder about is House Redoran, whose capital is moved from Baan Malur to Ald-ruhn prior to the game starting. That may just be the same situation as Telvanni but in reverse, starting on the mainland and working your way to Ald-ruhn.

And while many may be disturbed by the fact that their saved games may be messed with, I think we need to keep in mind that TR has, to my knowledge, only ever released Betas. I keep one save game and it starts when you first exit the Excise Building in Seyda Neen.
Post Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:35 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Ghills
Member
21 Dec 2009



Hemitheon wrote:
From what I've read, I don't think TR plans to redo the entirety of Vvardenfell, only redo some things for the sake of immersion, cohesion, and unity of game experience. I can understand many people's desire to protect the game, after all you have to really love it to still be playing it 12 years after release. However, the previous standard of tiptoeing to the line of the vanilla game just never worked. You are named Grandmaster of House Telvanni, then you go to Port Telvannis and they have to translate your vanilla standing into TR standing. It's a mess. All for the sake of not messing with original material. However, imagine starting in Sadrith Mora, working up the ranks, from minor figure dealing with Vvardenfell issues to moving to Port Telvannis and dealing with the larger intrigues of the House: a seamless transition. It's better to sew the two pieces (vanilla and TR) together so the seam is straight than just have a giant patch over it.

And while many may be disturbed by the fact that their saved games may be messed with, I think we need to keep in mind that TR has, to my knowledge, only ever released Betas. I keep one save game and it starts when you first exit the Excise Building in Seyda Neen.


Why would the status need to be translated? The PC worked up through the ranks in a quarantined area, obviously there's no transmission of data from the island. Starting over is better for compatibility and lore, and would be a great backdrop for very interesting stories that differed from the original game stories.

How much is rewritten is beside the point - my problem is that TR will eventually be a pain to integrate, as opposed to its comparatively drop in nature now.

Between the nonsensical lore choice and the incoming compatibility I'm significantly less happy with TR. I always felt I could trust TR to deliver basically lore-compatible stuff, and that's obviously not true any longer.

As for the beta/release naming...I'm not sure why you brought that up? TR is a publically available project, which means that compatibility and support concerns will impact it. If developers don't handle them then it's and added burden on users. What label gets attached to a project doesn't negate that reality.
Post Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:27 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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