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Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh


read please. probably full of inaccuracies, bad ideas, and horrible misintepretations of some of Sload's original concepts (and other concepts discussed). but let's get this started. also more of my irc rants as i was writing this below the cut.

Swiftoak " After Septim's invasion and the signing of the Armistice, many Indoril nobles, unable or unwilling to cope with their loss committed suicide or perished during the fighting. This practially ended their authority over all of Morrowind's territories, since many districts were now left without anybody to rule them. Indoril's holdings on the Ascadian Coast at Foyendas and Uremnar were...
Swiftoak ...viciously sacked and replaced with the holdings of Stonefall and Ebonheart (the former eventually being ceded over to the Hlaalu and reconsituted as the town of Andothren). Of all of Indoril's former holdings on the Thirr, only the stronghold of the Ilvi family remained (Roa Dyr), alongside the fortress of Almas Thirr (which de jure maintained a neutral position as a Temple holding)."
arvisrend StonefallS
Swiftoak right
Swiftoak w/e
Swiftoak says the team whos cchanging BL to BM an extra S
arvisrend ok, so the askkaedh coast also used to be indoril
arvisrend well Stonefalls makes more sense than Stonefall
arvisrend it's not just decorative
Swiftoak sure
Swiftoak " A condition of the Armistice was that these territories were now under the direct control of the various houses (though Indoril's official position contunues to claim soverignty over all of Morrowind). This led to large territorial changes, with the Indoril only maintaining a small portion of their territory (centered around the holy cities of Morrowind). Due to their relationship with the...
Swiftoak ...Septims, Hlaalu gained a substantial portion of the Thirr River upwards to the Inner Sea, while Redoran were forced to retreat to their strongholds in the Velothi Mountains. Only the northeast bank of the Thirr River remained under the control of Indoril through the Ilvi Family. However, even this nominal control was already undermined through the establishment of Septim's capital at...
Swiftoak ...Ebonheart. "
Swiftoak im refering to OE as Ebonheart atm
arvisrend northeast
arvisrend why not southeast?
arvisrend does hlaalu cross over the thirr as you go south?
Swiftoak they already have the SE
Swiftoak but SE thirr isn't valuyable or fertile
arvisrend oh is it in the deshaan?
Swiftoak yeah most of it
arvisrend ah i forgot how far it goes
Swiftoak there's a narrow pass along the riverbank (think colorado river)
Swiftoak yeah
Swiftoak at aldermar
Swiftoak sorry andraram
Swiftoak they want to open a ferry crossing (player strongold) that allows goods to reach the east thirr without having to cross almas thirr
Swiftoak basically im building up them underminding the indoril and dres at every turn
Swiftoak and possibly the redoran (but not in the trv)
Swiftoak because you know, npc work will need to be done in the area soon
arvisrend i just read your trv as "true"
arvisrend nice place for a stronghld
Swiftoak yes it
Swiftoak i got some more written down
Swiftoak see the idea ties into sload's thing nicely
Swiftoak their secret plot is actually to help morrowind's survival by building up infrastructure and economy
Swiftoak and controlling trade
Swiftoak because the other houses have their heads buried up their asses and are inept
Swiftoak the indoril almost lost the country to the imperials
Swiftoak obviously they're making a move here
Swiftoak that should be the theme of the conflict
Swiftoak but again like sload said, it falls tot he details
Swiftoak like what role the tong plays and what characters do what
Swiftoak we need to put in a concentrated effort to figure this out
Swiftoak so we can finalize our plans and get to work finishing the TRV so we can release it and move onto redoran
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Swiftoak "Prior to the Armistice, the territory around the Thirr (and in fact most deisrable areas in Morrowind) was under the de jure control of House Indoril. As Nerevar's successors in matters of war, Redoran was given strategic control and responsibility of the river's defenses, their martial power constituted into the Waters' March (though the land was technically still under Indoril soverigenty). Th
Swiftoak e lesser families in the Shipal and Coronati Valleys had some nominal control over their traditional clansteads (including some trade rights), though were generally subservient to the Indoril, their role only being somewhat higher from serfdom.
Swiftoak At some point in time, some of these minor families (Hlaalu, Hleryn, Narusae, coalesced under the leadership of the Hlaalu family as the House of Hlaalu, in order to counter the Indoril behemoth. Prior to the creation of House Hlaalu, lesser families would simply defer to the authority of Indoril nobles (no different than other serfs who resided in that land). While de jure this...
Swiftoak ...remained true, the Hlaalu had already enjoyed de facto autonomy through their trade relationship with Cyrodiil, and had acumulated formidable wealth and influence acting as go-betweens between Cyrodiil and the rest of Tamriel. Hlaalu began to undermine Indoril's moral and Redoran's martial authority in the Southern Thirr long before the invasion of Tiber Septim's Empire, an event that was...
Swiftoak change the political landscape of Morrowind forever."
Swiftoak common knloweldge
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Swiftoak so the indoril
Swiftoak ilvi cannot accept that the indoril are losing ground
Swiftoak when the other holdings are lost, the soverignty defaults to him, or the indoril recongizes the bonestocks of those lsot families as the lawful soverigns.
Swiftoak in fact the due is so out of touch he doesn't really recognize house hlaalu as a political entity
Swiftoak just a bunch of upjumped serfs who are undermining the canon
Swiftoak indoril dont have alot of ships so they practically depend on Almas Thir
Swiftoak i dont know what role iuval and marak play in the conflict
Swiftoak while i like the notion of a rump token redoran garrison for the waters' march
Swiftoak we dont have to take the route of adapting 2920 shit into TR
Swiftoak i dont think they should have a large role in the conflict other than to show the player they're stubborn bastards who dont budge an inch
arvisrend please post this too as i don't have time to read today:/
arvisrend i'll put the thread on watch
Swiftoak sure ill quote my ramblings
Swiftoak i jhave a huge 4pg document
Swiftoak right now
Swiftoak outlining the various factions' interests
Swiftoak in the thirr
arvisrend i just wondered what you mean by jpg document
Swiftoak 4 page document
arvisrend yeah took me a while to get there


 Filename:  thirrconflict.pdf
 Filesize:  64.07 KB
 Downloaded:  166 Time(s)

"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
Post Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:08 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Great write up, Swiftoak. Overall, I'd say your document gives us a solid start to planning our story for the Thirr.

I appreciate the added detail in regards to Almas Thirr's identity, and I love the title "Majordomo of the Crossing" for its head honcho. How exactly do the Hlaalu and Indoril exert pressure on the him? It was suggested before that the Hlaalu could try winning the city's traders to their side as a way to gain influence in Almas Thirr. But we might want to emphasize Almas Thirr as a stronghold, rather than a center of commerce.

Minor note:
Narsis is a key transport node for the trafficking of Khajiti slaves from Cyrodiil

I don't think the Hlaalu should abduct free Khajiit from Elyseyr the same way the Dres abduct Argonians from Black Marsh. It would be way too impractical on such a massive scale to transport captives through Cyrodiil. It makes more sense to have a self-sustaining Khajiit slave population within Morrowind's borders that the Hlaalu happen to control.

-Head of NPCs: Skyrim: Home of the Nords
Post Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:11 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

How exactly do the Hlaalu and Indoril exert pressure on the him?

Propose something! Razz
Obviously the whole money thing is kind of obvious. Emphasis on subterfuge here for the Hlaalu. As for the Ilvi connection, could have something to do with family (though this might take some further brainstorming on the Indoril end).

we might want to emphasize Almas Thirr as a stronghold, rather than a center of commerce.

That was my intention, yes. I'm not a huge fan of the whole trade town thing, though this doesn't necessarily mean a large-scale overhaul of Almas Thirr.

As for the Hlaalu and Khajiit, sure. I'll defer to someone that can come up with something more tasteful. Obviously I pictured catcatchers doing their thing on the down-low. Perhaps a secret border tunnel in the Shipal.

PS: I noticed the document above on reread sounds very disjointed. I see multiple instances where I use incorrect terminology, and even contradicting myself on a few parts. Don't take it too seriously, I just want to kickstart discussion here. We can choose to approach this in a totally different angle as far as I'm concerned.

"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
Post Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:32 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

Great start, Swiftoak, but can we move away from using so much Latin and just say it in English, please? It's kind of annoying to read "de jure" 30 times in a 4-page document, when it just means "by right" Razz (Imagine my plight when I saw "de facto", too, and the non-italicization of "modus operandi", haha)

Narsis is a key transport node for the trafficking of Khajiti slaves from Cyrodiil

I know Hlaalu do have some slaves, but they're not exactly the biggest proponents of the, and since when would Khajiiti slaves be coming from Cyrodiil? I thought the vast majority of Khajiiti slaves were those kidnapped and converted to slaves from within Morrowind. Surely slavers who risk capturing slaves in Elsweyr don't also take the risk of transporting those slaves through the foremost anti-slavery province, which also happens to be one of the widest provinces to travel across.

Their general interests in the
region needs to be expanded upon. I personally think the above is weak

The Indoril (Ilvi) probably also view the Hlaalu expansion in this area as having the potential to grow into something hugely problematic. They're already struggling (read: reeling) from political/economic losses, prominent suicides, and secession of control for hundreds of years, and if they can't even maintain control or dominance over the areas they have historically controlled--ceding that control to "upstart serfs" who are in bed with the Empire, of all people--then their worry is that the rest of Morrowind will follow suit and lose faith in the Indoril as the spiritual and political figurehead of Morrowind Great Houses (as they view themselves). They'll do anything (at least, Ilvi will) to prevent that.

I'm a little foggy on the state of House Indoril central affairs, but I kind of get the notion that Ilvi isn't exactly kept in the loop about the situation with the Grand Ascendant and the rest of the houses; he's sort of a red-headed step-child/senile uncle at family reunions that has an important place in the family but doesn't know how to wield it properly. The rest of the council can't exactly denounce him or plot his demise, as that would lose them the region (something they want much less than they want to get rid of Ilvi), but some probably secretly hope he'll be outfoxed in the region somehow.

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Post Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:32 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

My long-delayed notes on your proposal:

Historical Background:

First of all, a matter of terminology: you use Upper Thirr to refer to the northern half of the Thirr that became the Inner Sea, and then later to refer to the stretch of Thirr north of Lake Andaram. The former should correctly be referred to as the 'Lower Thirr', as it was furthest downriver. In river terminology 'up' is always towards the source of the river, and 'down' is always towards its mouth.
I would consider referring to the latter as 'Middle Thirr', to keep it distinct, but it could also just be called 'Lower Thirr'.

Document wrote:
Hlaalu began to undermine Indoril's moral and Redoran's martial authority in the Southern Thirr long before the invasion of Tiber Septim's Empire, [...]

I find the implications of this line questionable. Before they had the secret plan, Hlaalu would have had no real interest in undermining either. They may have had control over the lands and waterways of southwestern Morrowind, but they would not have had any reason to assert it, especially because they were weak then, and didn't have the protection of the Empire to fall back on.
It is however very possible that the plan began germinating in the wake of Reman III's invasion of Morrowind, which no doubt crippled House Hlaalu, as well as weakening or destroying many of House Redoran's outposts in the Waters' March, leaving House Hlaalu room to expand.

I'm not sure about Foyendas and Uremnar being sacked, though I always go back and forth on that point. The Armistice was signed to avoid a bloody war, not to end one. Foyendas and Uremnar are in the heart of Morrowind, and to reach them the Empire would have had to pass through a large part of the province.
As far as Ebonheart is concerned, I'd consider the idea of it being burned in a fire, set either purposefully or accidentally in conjunction with the mass suicide. I'll probably expand on this later.
As far as Andothren is concerned, I think it should not be built on top of ruins. I suggest that it was originally a Velothi town built around a holy site, and simply switched hands when Hlaalu got control over the region, the swap to Hlaalu architecture being a gameplay thing.
Foyendas -- as the Indoril castle-estate controlling (probably) the Ascadian Coast -- could be a large OM ruin, either at the edge of Roth Roryn or just west of the Andothren-Thirr section. (I'd need to look for a good location).
I'll probably discuss these and other points in the Background Lore thread, as they go beyond the scope of this thread but fit the scope of that thread precisely.

I do not think the Armistice itself should have in any way touched upon House territory. The most it would have done is establish the Great Houses (which had already largely been established long before that point) -- in the interest of establishing what parties the Empire would have to deal with -- and split Morrowind into districts. While the district borders would have mostly reflected House borders, they would only have been established to organize Imperial administration over Morrowind; the Houses were never bound nor inclined to respect them.
Instead, I think the Hlaalu expansion should be the culmination of 400 years of intrigue and political as well as legal maneuvering. I might expand on this later, but the gist of it is that Hlaalu gained control of its current territory step by step, gaining control over the west bank of the Thirr only around thirty years before the events of Morrowind, probably during the Imperial simulacrum.

The Situation Today:

To elaborate on the situation with Narsis, the general consensus reached in the Andothren-Thirr section, at least, is that Khajiit slaves since the Armistice have come from within Morrowind, either raised in plantations or, perhaps, kidnapped. Narsis' role in the slave trade, once vital, has probably become marginal at best, and 'catcatchers' at the time of Morrowind only loosely fit their old moniker. (They mostly guard slave caravans within Morrowind and capture runaway slaves).
Narsis' focus would have shifted with the Armistice anyway: the Indoril and -- if they still used slaves -- Redoran would have probably stopped buying slaves from Hlaalu in protest to their role in the invasion, while Hlaalu now trades Ebony and other goods to the Empire. The Hlaalu Council Company also has a lot more land to administer, increasing the importance of Narsis as the company headquarters.

House Indoril's position on the Thirr River

While Indoril control over the Thirr did not stem from economic or political desires, I wouldn't discount those factors. House Indoril governs Morrowind, and with the loss of the Thirr House Indoril would lose the power to govern Morrowind's internal trade. (External trade naturally being the concern of House Hlaalu).
More broadly, House Indoril's ability to govern Morrowind's economy would be crippled, and thereby its ability to govern Morrowind at all. Basically Indoril's real authority -- as opposed to its nominal authority -- is under threat, and most Indoril would recognize that to some level, though their ways of coping with it would differ. (Some who have withdrawn into their gardens would probably not care, though at the same time it is likely that many withdrew into their gardens because they were losing their real authority, so in short they do care but feel powerless to do anything and so basically abdicated from reality).

Something to remember about House Indoril is that it traditionally was not only about its ideals, but also about putting them to practice. The disconnect between ideals and reality is a phenomenon that probably only emerged with the signing of the Armistice, and which has not necessarily established itself at the start of Morrowind.

Also, a bit of nitpicking, though I think the distinction is very important to make: the only sort of control House Indoril definitely does not have over Almas Thirr is nominal control, nominal simply meaning 'in name'. House Indoril does probably have de facto control over Almas Thirr, though by the time of Morrowind that might no longer be the case. (I'd assume control over Almas Thirr would be roughly balanced between House Hlaalu and House Indoril, the latter probably having a slight advantage).

House Redoran's positions on the Thirr

This is another topic I'd like to explore more thoroughly in the background lore thread. For now, though, I'd say that rather than underlining House Redoran's stubborn nature as such, their strongholds might serve to highlight their desperate situation, clinging onto the last vestiges of their obsolete ancestral role due to their inability to find a new purpose in contemporary Morrowind.
House Redoran may also be unwilling to abandon its strongholds simply because it doesn't want to give the land to House Hlaalu.
More importantly, though, House Redoran is still striving to protect Morrowind, and, though isolated in a sea of Hlaalu power, Marak and Iuval do still guard a choke-point of the Thirr. Along with its control of the Straights of Malur, House Redoran stands guard over two of the four routes by which an invader could reach central Morrowind by sea. (The Orethan is controlled directly by House Indoril, and is very secure, while the eastern opening of the Inner Sea is narrow and perilous to traverse due to the abundance of rocks).
All of which makes it all the more ironic that, when an invasion finally comes, it comes from another plane rather than over a physical border, rendering the Redoran defenses essentially useless.

Almas Thirr

Document wrote:
Hlaalu have promised large sums of money and guarantees regarding the preservation of the holy site in exchange for his support.

This seems rather counter-intuitive to me. The preservation of such an important holy site would already be guaranteed by the Temple, not to mention House Indoril. I don't see the Majordomo being short on funding.
Instead, I suggest that House Hlaalu is slowly but surely gaining control of Almas Thirr's supply lines, so that Almas Thirr is gradually starting to depend on Hlaalu's support for it to be able to operate. In short, Hlaalu is essentially extorting the Majordomo for support, rather than essentially bribing him.

Also, I generally don't mention grammatical and orthographical errors in documents as they aren't really important, but I've noticed a few consistent errors.

As has already basically been pointed out:

de facto - actual; though de facto is a fairly specific term, so there's no real reason to substitute it.
de jure - by right/by law.
nominal - in name; generally can be used instead of de jure, though they technically mean different things.

The possessive of 'it ' is 'its ', not 'its' '.

I suggest you double-check the spelling of proper nouns; in the opening quote, is 'Thirr' intentionally spelt 'Thir'? I've also already mentioned that you spell 'Othreleth' about four different ways in that document. Razz

Post Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:55 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
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