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Opiece
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17 Jul 2014

Location: Omelette du fromage

Proposal for a new Tier II Velothi settlement – Saint Llothis

I'd like to suggest the creation of a new Velothi town, Saint Llothis (or just Llothis, if you prefer the shorter version), the only Tier II settlement on Indoril lands. Because I know I'll need to be very convincing for this to be accepted, I'll closely follow the steps of this document.

1. Conceptual Planning
This settlement would serve two purposes:
- highlight the Velothi culture & relationship with religion,
- display the Indoril industrial power.

UESPWiki wrote:
Saint Llothis the Pious (?b - ?d)

Patron of Tailors and Dyers. Contemporary and companion of the Tribunals, and the best-loved Alma Rula of the Tribunal Temple, he formulated the central rituals and principles of the New Temple Faith. Saint Llothis is the symbolic mortal bridge between the gods and the faithful, and the archetypal priest. His staff is a greatly prized artifact of the Tribunal Temple.
- UESPWiki


Obviously, this settlement, being named after Saint Llothis, would be deeply linked to his life. IMHO, a Tier II settlement would be the best way to display the Velothi/”regular Indoril” culture: Almalexia is deliberately unique and apart from other settlements on Indoril lands. Tier III, on the other hand, are too numerous, too small and too “generic” to be deeply interesting for the player (I think we can all agree that we've spent much more time in Ald'ruhn than in Maar Gan, and more in Balmora than in Suran). I fear that if no Tier II is made for the Velothi, they'll still keep this vibe of “generic, unaffiliated and uninteresting Dunmer”. We should show that the Velothi people are interesting in their own right, and not just here to fill in the blanks of the wilderness. Now let's define more clearly what would be the point of this settlement.
First, it would be a physical representation of Temple and Indoril influence over regular Velothi, by being built around a “religious core”. This religious core should not be some sort of holy, inaccessible, bureaucratic temple (like the one in Almalexia), but should feel like a practical, day-to-day, down-to-earth religious center. Close to this religious core should be placed the industrial part of the town, mainly including tailors and dyers. For the Velothi people, Saint Llothis is first and foremost the patron of tailors and dyers, his holy life and accomplishments being more the concern of Indoril nobles. The Hlaalu are defined by trade, the Redoran by war, the Telvanni by irresponsible independence, the Indoril by some sort of “pious leadership”. If we want the differentiate the Indoril from the Velothi, the latter should be defined by “Work and Pray”, a more down-to-earth approach to everything in life.

This document defines Velothi Tier III as “towns with more than one crafthall and on travel network.” Therefore, if Saint Llothis is to be Tier II, it should be more than that. I think it would be interesting to add two religious features that would help define the town:
- “The Hall of Grievances” would be an interior based on Saint Llothis symbolising the “mortal bridge between the gods and the faithful”. It should display either his statue or his cenotaph, and it would be a place for common people to come and pray/confess/complain; basically, it would be the Temple equivalent for the Catholic confessional.
- A school for priests, based on Llothis symbolising the "archetypal priest." Basically, the Indoril lands are the most religious part of Morrowind, along with Necrom and Vivec. It'd be a good idea to have a school teach Tribunal theology, along with some “skill subjects” such as Restoration, Alchemy and Speechcraft.

In addition, I think Saint Llothis should work as a minor port (it'd be located on the eastern coast). Even though the Indoril are not really interested in trade, it seems reasonable enough for them to supervise a port focused on trading manufactured goods. Moreover, Saint Llothis (and potentially Tear) would be the only commercial port on Morrowind's eastern coast.
Finally, to answer the last question of that part, if we worked without restrictions of time or manpower, I'd like to have a unique model of a Saint Llothis statue and a unique model of the “Hall of Grievances” or of the priest school.

2. Technical Setup
IMHO, from a gameplay perspective, there is a clear need for this settlement. I haven't yet mentioned the number 1 reason I made this proposal: population density. Currently, the Indoril lands are too sparsely populated. The Hlaalu (with the Imperials) and the Indoril (with the Temple) are the two factions competing for the control of Morrowind, and they should probably be in a tie on some aspects, such as population, cultural influence, etc. I feel that the Hlaalu, population-wise, easily beat the Indoril. Solutions to this problem include making more settlements and making settlements bigger. Depending on its location, Saint Llothis would be a bit of both.
Aside from the population density issue, I feel we need to define a clear cultural identity for the Velothi, which could be improved through the creation of this settlement. Also, just for the sake of variety, I think it'd be cool to have a Balmora-sized Velothi town.
Finally, unlike Tier III, Tier II settlements often work as “quest hubs” because of the presence of many guilds and tongs. If Akamora is to be replaced by a castle-estate at some point, and it likely will be, the guilds/tongs quests could easily be relocated to Saint Llothis, while they would feel rather out of place in Tier III towns.

According to this map, Balmora contains 41 different interiors. I believe this a reasonable number, and Saint Llothis could be somewhere in the 30-50 interior range. Seeing it'd be a commercial port, Saint Llothis should be relatively welcoming to foreigners, providing all of the most basic services + Temple + crafthall. However, it shouldn't include too big a port, or any manor for nobles. This is a working class city with a religious background, so the biggest buildings should belong to important priests or successful craftsmen. For that matter, merchants should be 100% Dunmeri, and foreigner presence should probably be restricted to guilds: strangers are welcome to trade, but not to stay.



Finally, here is a map suggesting two locations for Saint Llothis. It'd either be a new settlement South-East of Almalexia, right at the Indoril/Dres border, or it would replace Seitur, North East of Almalexia, and thus would provide access to Gorne. The choices are limited, as I believe the town should meet with these three requirements:
- not too close to any Tier I settlement (Almalexia, Necrom and OE),
- located on the coast (it's a port),
- located on the Eastern part of Indoril lands (the Western part being crowded with Almalexia, OE, Andothren and Almas Thirr).

3. Layout

Concerning size, I feel 4 named cells should be enough. Maybe 5 if the city is expanded along the coast, but not more.
I think this town should be divided in 4 parts:
- A. the central part would include the Temple, the Hall of Grievances, the priest school, the crafthall (which would include many tailors) and the big houses of the important priests/successful craftsmen. Ideally, these buildings would be placed around some sort of town square (maybe put a Saint Llothis statue in the middle of it?). This should be around 5-7 interiors,
- B. the first wing would include the guilds/tongs, with the remaining services that wouldn't be in the crafthall. This should be around 10-15 interiors,
- C. the second wing would include an inn or two, and several middle working class houses. Most of the people living here would be craftsmen. This should be around 10-15 interiors,
- D. the docks would include boats, storage buildings and a few poor working class houses. Most of the people living here would be working at the docks, loading and unloading boats. This should be around 6-8 interiors.

Unfortunately I'm on a laptop so I can't make any map right now, but ideally I'd build the town like this:

B A C
B D C

However I'm obviously not an exterior modder, so if the settlement idea is accepted I wouldn't mind this disposition to be reworked.

I'd also like to thank Swiftoak and Gnomey for the ideas they gave me.

I haven't done part 4 yet, I'd like to have your opinions and to know if people agree with the idea before going any further Smile

PS: Again, I can't start a thread in Master Planning, so put this thread wherever you want. Smile
Post Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:58 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Sorry for my delay in replying to this. When I wanted to reply words stopped working, so I had to resort to pictures. Razz



North is towards the top right of the image. (The docks are facing straight eastwards). I chose the northernmost location on your map (#1), though I think it would work just as well in the southern location.

I expanded the culture focus to include education and theology, to show that, while the Temple does expect blind faith in the Tribunal, it is not really a religion that works by keeping its populace ignorant.
For that, I somewhat neglected the industrial side of things; while there should be a lot of industry in Llothis, I do not think it should take center stage.

Here is a rough breakdown of some notable buildings:



1. I do not think either a temple or the hall of grievances are really important enough to take the center stage of such a large settlement, so, as I was thinking that Llothis should be a place of learning anyway, I thought of the Whirling School from the 36 Lessons; the building would basically be a university of theology, though that's a rather uninteresting way of putting it. On second glance, using existing assets, I could probably make a more interesting building shell...
2. the Clergy House has beds for all of the resident priests, but there should probably also be a dedicated hostel for priests in training elsewhere in Llothis.
3. the Priest School is somewhat more basic than the Whirling School; it focuses mainly on the practical end of things, as well as the more accessible teachings. (Saryoni's Sermons, Homilies of Blessed Almalexia...). It is tucked behind the Whirling School, and as such not visible in the image.
4. the Hall of Itinerants is an administrative building from which priests are sent off across the province to wherever they might be needed.
5. the Hall of Grievances, as per your description.

While the religious quarter may seem disconnected from the rest of the city -- and as such the people -- it sits on the bend of the road where Veloth turned north after reaching the coast, and as such would be a center of activity. (I realize now that the bend may actually be located further south, in Lan Murha, but I think either alternative works, and either way the religious quarter would be on the pilgrimage route). It isn't really hidden from view anyway.

6. the temple; somewhat grander than the typical temple, but no different in focus. It would naturally have a shrine of St. Llothis.
7. the School of Letters is for the common folk, and mainly teaches literacy and some Sunday-school-level stuff. Participation is voluntary and free. While the building is rather small, in times of greater activity priests would also teach outside wherever there is space.
8. the Garrison is rather small. While this Velothi town, unlike others, does have a permanent garrison, it still relies on guards from whatever Castle-Estate controls/is closest to Llothis to pad out its numbers. Velothi towns should not be especially fortified, in my opinion.
9. this is just a random cornerclub of the common Velothi; its members would not be priests, and it would not have an industrial focus.
10. I ended up putting the guilds and craftsmer halls in the southern end of the town, mostly out of frame. They would be crowded around the stretch of mainroad that leads south towards Lan Murha. The guilds and craftsmer halls could or could not be segregated. (Probably the guilds would on one side of the road and the industry on the other).

I don't think priests or craftsmer should have notably larger houses. Some might have fancier looking houses, (so ex_vivec_h_01, ex_vivec_h_05 and ex_vivec_h_06; pm furniture on the inside, maybe RM for priests) but that's about it. Otherwise the player might get the impression that the Velothi have a different sort of nobility, rather than no nobility (aside from the Indoril).

The result of all that is three broad districts:

AB
CB
C

Where A is the theological district, B is the commoners' district and C is the industry/guild district, where most of the services and outlander-friendly inn(s) would be located. I noticed that I forgot to draw in a siltstrider. It should probably go behind the Hall of Grievances.

All of this could probably fit into 1 cell, with a total of 45-50 interiors. While I realize that only using one cell for a Tier II might feel inadequate, after working with the Velothi set I think it simply is that compact, and that even with the limit on size the city should feel impressive.

Tell me if the large image causes any problems, by the way.
Post Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:53 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Opiece
Member
17 Jul 2014

Location: Omelette du fromage

Your concept art is stunning! Smile I tried to make one myself, but obviously I won't do much better than that.
I don't think choosing the location between #1 and #2 is important right now, it should be done only if the proposal gets accepted. Seeing the region's geography would roughly be the same, the town's design would not change much from one spot to another.

One thing I like with your work abd TR in general is the feeling of verticality. It really highlights what would be the core of the city. If I've understood correctly, you're suggesting adding a road that would go North right behind the Whirling School. However, I'm not a big fan of having this huge building right in the middle of the religious quarter: it would obscure the buildings behind (Hall of Itinerants and Priest School), and it doesn't give the feeling it's right in the middle of a road. I'd be in favor of placing the Whirling School in the North-Western corner, with a road going through the quarter and splitting into a fork at the end. Please excuse my very poor Paint skills (the big circular building would be the Whirling School, the brown part the road, and the arrows the stairs):




Also, I don't think the Hall of Itinerants would need a building of its own. It could easily be added to the Clergy House in my opinion. However I don't really mind, so I guess that would be up to the guy in charge of the exterior.
Even if you didn't really include it, I don't think the industrial part of the town should be overlooked. A Velothi town needs to feel different from a Temple town, so the industrial quarter should balance the current religious focus. And seeing the town's named after Saint Llothis, it should probably include a big building full of tailors (not necessarily selling clothes, but at least making them). A big majority of the Dunmer living here would be craftsmen, so the industrial part needs to be big enough to reflect that.

A few notes regarding my first post:
- there should be no foreigner at all, even in the guilds, except for 1 or 2 foreign priests in training. We know that the Temple accepts all races in their ranks (such as the player), so we should probably show that in game at the school. However, these 1 or 2 strangers would have to live there because of the school, and no foreigner in his right mind would want to live in Llothis: it's a traditional Dunmeri town located in one of the Easternmost parts of Morrowind with practically no business opportunity. Foreigners would be better off in more central settlements, like OE, Almalexia, etc. Also, the inhabitants would not necessarily be racist, but intrigued and a bit xenophobic: they'd be curious as to why the player (if he's a foreigner) is here and be as xenophobic as any Dunmer, but they wouldn't necessarily reject him.
- The Temple should be very close to the common people in Llothis, going even further than the regular Temple. In addition to charity, they'd be teaching lessons (School of Letters) and even possibly hosting homeless/poor Dunmeri people (maybe in the Clergy House, but I'd be more in favour of adding some beds in the Temple).
- I only suggested the successful craftsmen/important priests owning big houses in case someone wanted to have some bigger houses, but I don't think it's necessary. Moreover, it would feel a bit awkward with the modest aspect of the town and the Temple.


However, I think we need some more opinions before developing this too much, especially if the settlement proposal is rejected in the end. Smile
Post Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:08 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Ironed Maidens
Developer
23 Feb 2008



Perhaps Wolli's mountainous meshes could be used to house the Whirling School, so there could be a hill in the corner of the town and instead of something being built atop it, it could be built inside, and perhaps some type of religious pillars could be placed atop it to still give more verticality to the city? What is everyone's idea of what the whirling school would look like exactly? From the Sermons I gather it would have simple pillows used for seating, it would be mostly candle lit, and there would be separated rooms used for meditation/scribing/scrying.

Quote:
The lines of Moon Axle were collected by Velothi philosophers and taken into caves. There, and for a year, Vivec taught the philosophers how to turn the lines of his son into the spokes of mystery wheels. This was the birth of the first Whirling School. Before, there had only been the surface thought of fire.


Maybe pillars or even poles/pole structures would be suitable to have dotted along the top of the hill, as a sort of homage to the birth of the school. Or are we planning on having this be THE original Whirling School?
Post Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:06 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Ex
Member
05 May 2014



I like the proposed design, and support the concept of creating another Velothi settlement in that area to increase population density. However I have a few issues.

I have concerns about the name. Apart from the Tribunal (Almalexia, Sotha Sil, Vivec), I don't believe there are any other settlements in Morrowind named after individuals. Even though Llothis is a saint, I don't believe it would be right to elevate him in that way, and it may distract from the uniqueness of those cities.

I don't think it should be a tier 2 settlement. If Tamriel Rebuilt is to follow the master plan for House Indoril, there needs to be a clear divide between the castle-estates of Indoril nobles, and the lesser settlements of the Velothi. There is also the case of Almalexia being a super city, which requires it to be depicted as dwarfing all surrounding settlements.

I therefore believe any Velothi settlements in Indoril lands should be capped at tier 3.
Post Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:09 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
RyanS
Lead Developer
19 Aug 2013

Location: California

Ex wrote:
I therefore believe any Velothi settlements in Indoril lands should be capped at tier 3.
I think there can be an exception or two.

House Indoril is known to be the superior Great House of Morrowind, and I don't think that their position will be shown very well if they are given only one large city with a few surrounding velothi labor towns. Also, creating a tier 2 settlement will let developers use the velothi tileset like it has never been used before, which could lead to many great new ideas and designs. The settlement could also help show a less generic side of the velothi people, as Opiece had said. And finally, I think we already have enough tier 3 settlements in the area. (Bosmora, Dondril, Vul, etc.) And I don't think we'll really want another one.

As for the city's name, I also will agree that Llothis sounds a bit odd. Perhaps we should throw up a few new ideas, if other people agree.

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Post Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:36 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



I like the two most recent city designs. This plan seems especially thorough, however my issue with this and so many other ideas remains. We frankly do not have enough people to properly finish what cities we already have planned. This city also does not even appear on any original maps or lore so it we create additional massive workload. We need ideas and implementation of quests and NPCs not more unnecessary places to be filled. These are the most essential contributions people here are most hesitant to offer for some reason. This is IMO counter productive and non-priority, regardless of how well planned or appealing the design is.

If too few or noone remains who can script, NPC or quest, new people need to be actively recruited and tutorials collected. We need a copy-paste ready selection of scripts to make dungeons more interesting. Maybe the same could maybe be done for some basic functions in quests to help streamline the process and ease to ease new people into questing by making cookie cutter quests more doable.

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Post Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:32 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
RyanS
Lead Developer
19 Aug 2013

Location: California

sasquatch2o wrote:
This is IMO counter productive and non-priority, regardless of how well planned or appealing the design is.


Nobody had said that work on this city should begin any time soon, or even be done at all. So far, this is all just planning.

Also, we're no longer basing all of our work off of old maps or lore, so starting new cities from scratch is alright.

_________________
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein

A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
Post Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:24 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



What is the goal then if not to recreate Morrowind as it was intended? This is just another expansive mistake in a long series of mistakes to excuse previous errors in planning and open the doors for more poor decisions in the future. More cities here are not even needed.
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Post Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:26 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
RyanS
Lead Developer
19 Aug 2013

Location: California

sasquatch2o wrote:
What is the goal then if not to recreate Morrowind as it was intended? This is just another expansive mistake in a long series of mistakes to excuse previous errors in planning and open the doors for more poor decisions in the future. More cities here are not even needed.

Take a look at this map. Bethesda clearly altered many things with Vvardenfell since it was made. So who's to say we can't do the same here?

The proposed areas for the city are currently lacking of npc's, which doesn't make much sense in the middle of lush Indoril lands. With that, I think at least planning for a new city is a good decision to make. Wink

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Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. –Albert Einstein

A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. -Ayn Rand
Post Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:02 am Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

I'd like to bump this thread as the town was discussed during the last Skype Meeting.

The town of Bosmora will be placed more towards the coast, rebuilt in the Velothi tileset, renamed to Lan Murha and use the concept for Saint Llothis.

I'm very eager to see this develop as it will demonstrate a lot of new and unique things.
Post Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:25 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Here's the Lan Murha's brief description from Swiftoak's Indoril Proposal, which I think outlines a fitting identity for the settlement. Naturally, it's exact location (whether on the mouth of the Orthren or further up river) is still up to debate, and we can also fit in ideas from the above discussion as well.
Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:
Lan Murha (III): Lan Murha is another major town on the east road, on the opposite side of the valley. Situated upon the Mouth of the Orethan River, its’ primarily situated as a trade town, and port of entry for ships en-route to the capital. Inside the town also lies the Shrine of the Last Guide, the site where it is speculated Veloth first caught sight of the Eastern Sea.

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