<Gnomey> I'm trying to remember where we pulled the name Septim's Gate from...
<Gnomey> probably a map or something.
<Gnomey> MAybe we did come up with it,
<Gnomey> in which case I would support de-passifying it. Four passes are plenty.
<arvisrend> the land has to stop abruptlz
<arvisrend> and the mountains are there to prevent it from being visiblye
<arvisrend> do you want a tunnel?
<arvisrend> also i'd suggest changing some different place
<arvisrend> if septim is what i think it is, it's nicely done
<Gnomey> IT does look nice,
<Gnomey> but it's location is bad;
<Gnomey> it would lead to northern Cyrodiil, where it's cold, frigid and empty.
<Gnomey> Or empty, at any rate.
<arvisrend> northern cyrodiil has bruma
<Gnomey> Yeah, that's off to the west, though.
<Gnomey> The route wouldn't be much different from going via Kragenmar->Cheydinhall->Imperial City->Bruma,
<Gnomey> which would be a lot easier, with better roads and rest stops and everything.
<Gnomey> Not a big deal at the moment; we can discuss it later,
<Gnomey> but I think maybe caving in the pass further on might work.
<arvisrend> how is the cell called_
<Gnomey> Or making it a secret Legion pass, maybe...
<Gnomey> Septim's Gate Pass
<arvisrend> hmm i don"t have it loaded i see
<arvisrend> ah right
<Gnomey> You know what?
<Gnomey> I took a look at Shadowmoth fort down at Kragenmar.
<Gnomey> I'd seriously consider a switcheroo, using Septim's Pass as Shadowgate or however Bethesda calls it,
<Gnomey> and using Shadowmoth somewhere else, naturally under a different name, as a Legion Fort.
<arvisrend> that's a nice thing
<Gnomey> The ground around Shadowmoth is flat,
<Gnomey> so it won't be hard to move.
<arvisrend> provided they fit
<arvisrend> iirc Shadowmoth is bigger
<Gnomey> Yeah, I wouldn't put Shadowmoth right where Septim's Gate is,
<Gnomey> but somewhere in or near Redoran land should work.
<Gnomey> Where Septim's Gate was would then become either mountainside or a caved-in pass or something,
<Gnomey> with no Imperial structures.
<Gnomey> It's certainly not the worst pass-related proposal I'll be making... :-/
<Gnomey> Aah, Arena. TR has six passes because of Arena. That explains it.
<RyanS1> 6 passes seems to be reasonable enough besides that fact.
<Gnomey> Eeh, I'm mulling over it.
<RyanS1> lol, but then there'll be more bordering black marsh
<Gnomey> Only two, going by the Arena map.
<Gnomey> The only problem is that, even in the Arena map: http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/gallery_files/mapbigtamriel1.1.jpg
<Gnomey> only four of the passes linked to anything important.
<RyanS1> yeah, I see what you mean
<Gnomey> In TR, those two maps are still very isolated;
<Gnomey> basically in the middle of nowhere.
<Gnomey> I wouldn't mind their existing as little informal affairs or something,
<Gnomey> I just don't think they make sense as proper passes.
<Gnomey> But I'm writing a long post on the subject as we speak.
<Aeven> that map suggests Argonia is one of the most developed provinces
<Gnomey> Haha, yeah.
<Gnomey> I like to think the cartographer had no idea,
<Gnomey> so just dreamed something up.
<RyanS1> The current Rift Pass (stronghold tileset) seems to lead nowhere.
<Aeven> maybe the pass is there because the terrain makes it so
<RyanS1> but it would be a great shame to get rid of it, or even alter it heavily.
<Aeven> rather than anything usefull behind it
<Gnomey> Frankly, I'm sort of itching to the former, but know people like it,
<Gnomey> and so am considering what we could do with it.
<RyanS1> it could be made for dunmer defense
<Gnomey> I think that's a reason against, really.
<Gnomey> I don't think House Redoran should control a pass,
<Haplo> that map is a compilation of other maps
<Gnomey> and Nords and Imperial have no reason to use an inconvenient, out of the way, Dunmer-controlled pass for their invasions.
<Aeven> oh hi Hap
<Haplo> those towns in Argonia are just settlements of lizards
<RyanS1> Rift Pass could be a pilgrimage site, as addressed in my claim: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24148
<Gnomey> Wjhy would he enter Morrowind through Rift Pass?
<Gnomey> I'd have expected either via Narsis or Kragenmar.
<RyanS1> lol I made that whole claim based off of the description
<RyanS1> "Rift Pass is considered to be where Veloth first entered Resdayn (modern Morrowind), and as such is considered a place of pilgrimage."
<Gnomey> I don't really see that working out;
<Gnomey> it would have been one heck of a detour for the sake of crossing an extra mountain range, plowing through snow and then winding back southwards along canyons to meet up with the direct route again.
<RyanS1> is there a map of his route?
<Gnomey> No, though I could make one.
<RyanS1> Veloth likely had no idea where he was going.
<Gnomey> THe DAedra did.
<Gnomey> They may have led him astray a little, to test him,
<Gnomey> but our Rift Pass wouldn't be 'a little'.
<Gnomey> The best route is the one that goes east most of the time.
<RyanS1> I just hate the idea of getting rid of that interior - and likely much of Rift Pass.
<Gnomey> Yeah, I'll consider whether the interior can be re-used;
<Gnomey> as well as the exterior if people are really attached to it.
<Gnomey> I'm not sure it needs to be a pass.
<RyanS1> Perhaps Rift Pass could be moved to where 'Septim's Gate' is on Swiftoaks map.
<RyanS1> or at least the basic layout of the place
<Gnomey> but I frankly don't think a stronghold would fly there either,
<Gnomey> as it's an impoertant Imperial pass.
<Gnomey> Putting it another way:
<Gnomey> By turning it from a pass into a stronghold,
<Gnomey> while keeping its shrine,
<Gnomey> we can provide context for a stronghold being used as a settlement, rather than a dungeon.
<Gnomey> Otherwise, as a pass, it would typically succumb to the convention of settlements matching the faction that control them.
<Gnomey> At the moment, based on that convention, I'd say that there would be a strong argument that the pass should be redone in the Redoran tileset, anyway.
<RyanS1> Maybe most of the ints. can be used for Ald Marak/ Ald Luval
<Gnomey> Hm. Why not just a new stronghold location?
<RyanS1> If those are intended to be of the stronghold tileset
<Gnomey> Most of the mainland is short on strongholds;
<RyanS1> yeah, it is
<Gnomey> add a tronghold, use the interiors in it, keep the shrine.
<RyanS1> don't worry, I'm not too attached to the shrine, it would just be a bit ashame to get rid of it
<Gnomey> Eh, it would work.
<Gnomey> The shrine's story could link to the location being a stronghold,
<Gnomey> which wold provide a reason for friendly NPCs to be living in a stronghold.
<Gnomey> Thereby dodging the convention and giving context to the other interiors.
<RyanS1> yeah, that seems good
<RyanS1> Gnomey, any more thoughts on the passes?
<Gnomey154> You missed the bit about Septim's Gate Pass, right?
<RyanS1> probably, if that happened in the last half hour
<Gnomey154> It happened before you popped in, I think.
<RyanS1> oh, that makes sense
<Gnomey154> Using Swiftoak's map for convenience: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/yovm95l2wl8me72/Master%20Plan%20%5BEverything%5D.jpg?dl=0
<Gnomey154> Septim's Gate Pass is not marked as a location, but the road is still there;
<Gnomey154> it is west of Kartur
<RyanS1> yes, I see
<Gnomey154> I thought that would lead it to northern Cyrodiil, which is cold and empty.
<Gnomey154> I was not quite right;
<Gnomey154> it leads to Cheydinhal, just like Shadowgate Pass.
<Gnomey154> The thing is that Shadowgate pass is very well sourced and much more important,
<Gnomey154> while Septim's Gate Pass -- simply put -- isn't. But they both look nice.
<RyanS1> SGP looks a bit better IMO, too
<Gnomey154> Shadowgate Pass is actually a legion fort, going by the Alpha.
<Gnomey154> My suggestion is simply: move Septim's Gate to Shadowgate,
<Gnomey154> move shadowgate to wherever we need a legion fort.
<Gnomey154> The moves should be really easy to do;
<Gnomey154> Shadowmoth (as I think it's called in the alpha) is on flat terrain.
<Gnomey154> The old Septim's Gate location can either become a hidden, obscure, unguarded pass, an old caved-in pass, or the mountainside.
<Gnomey154> Or the site of a dungeon that is up against the mountainside.
<RyanS1> that sounds interesting
<Gnomey154> Then the rest of the passes are fine as is.
<Gnomey154> (The name Septim's Gate can be used for the Narsis pass; I don't think we have a name for it yet)
<RyanS1> sounds great
<RyanS1> It seems the new pass would be very close to Black Marsh, but it would still work better as Septim's Gate.
<Gnomey154> That's my suggestion for Veloth'
<Gnomey154> s route.
<Gnomey154> New pass?
<Gnomey154> I only advocated removing two, not adding one.
<Gnomey154> The one near Narsis is supposed to be there, and is really important.
<RyanS1> the bottom one on Swiftoak's map
<RyanS1> don't worry, not a new one
<Gnomey154> Yeah, it's been there from the start, we just never got around to making it,
<Gnomey154> because it's map 6
<Gnomey154> It's the reason Narsis exists, basically.
<Gnomey154> And via circular logic, it exists because Narsis does.
<Gnomey154> On the Cyrodiil side, it isn't near black marsh,
<Gnomey154> and it isn't especially close on the Morrowind side either.
<Gnomey154> Using the Cyrodiil map, it would come out east of Silverfish River's source;
<Gnomey154> in other words, it could connect to Niben's Bay, and from there pretty much everywhere important.
<Gnomey154> It didn't exist in Oblivion because Oblivion.
<Gnomey154> Do you know if Province: Cyrodiil has a map?
<RyanS1> they have lots of maps, I think
<Gnomey154> Of their side of the Velothis, that is.
<Gnomey154> Ooh, now I see.
<RyanS1> they just abandoned their site, moved to PT
<Gnomey154> This is one map, anyway.
<Gnomey154> It shows two passes, though the first is a little high;
<Gnomey154> more Septim's Gate than Shadowgate...
<Gnomey154> The bottom one is important, though.
<Gnomey154> And I don't think they'd be working on that region anytime soon anyway, so it should be fine.
<RyanS1> I believe much of that map is based off of Oblivion, anyways.
<Gnomey154> Yeah, but they took the trouble to add the lower pass,
<RyanS1> So they shouldn't have a problem moving things around
<Gnomey154> where before there was fertile nothing.