Karthor Dale and it's location

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kingfish
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Karthor Dale and it's location

Post by kingfish »

i'm just about to start working on this, so:
please, if anyone knows anything about this city, or in what book i can read about it, post it here.
i'm mainly interested in any "special" locations, what guilds, institutions, etc...
also, is there a clue about it's general look [on a mountain/in a walley, lot of trees/arid, etc]

my second major concern is about it's exact location:
currently our map showes it just one cell away from coast, which is imo odd and would seam logical to move closer to the sea [so it can have port], but on arena map, it's even further in-land. so, where should i place it?
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Silvone Elestahr
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Post by Silvone Elestahr »

Because you have already made Stonefalls a port, I don't think you should make Karthor Dale one. The city seems to be snuggled inside a small bend near the end of the chain of mountains, or at least in lower part of it. You could either make it like Stonefalls (but instead of putting in the bowl of the valley, make it climb one side of the hill, leaving the most important buildings near the top, and then descend down the other side, which leaves the option of a road to the north), or you could make it sit at the foot of the mountains, in a depression or on well-vegetated plains. But thats just if you leave it where its at on this map, without making it a port and not allowing it to get too close to the Inner Sea.
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kingfish
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Post by kingfish »

well, i was more asking whether there is any lore about placement, but thanx anyway.

one more thing: i just recalled that "dale" means valley [stupid me], so, should i consider this as well? and does "karthor" mean anything?
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Marauth Alaí-Raán
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Post by Marauth Alaí-Raán »

You should probably take 'dale' to just be a Dunmeri word and just a coincidence that it sounds really like an english word.

Only bit of lore on it AFAIK is that at the time of the Pocket Guide it and pretty much all the other Hlaalu cities on Map 4 were Redoran, TR has made up a half-baked idea that Hlaalu has nicked all of Redoran's territory so it's being built as Hlaalu I believe, according to whoever made up this bit of lore here, it's one of House Hlaalu's recent aquisitions at the expense of the Redorans, it used to be Redoran before the armistice so maybe some old buildings on one edge should still be Redoran style and the rest would be the 'new' Hlaalu city.

Though if I conquered an enemy city I wouldn't demolish the whole thing because I dislike their architecture it's just bad for PR and it takes a lot of money to completely rebuild a city but hey.
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Post by Vegor »

True. On top of that, Hlaalu are not really combat-orientated and I doubt they really conquered the city by force. I doubt they would be able to defeat Redoran in combat although they do have the Empire backing them up.

Anyway, the point is that I doubt the Hlaalu would have burned and razed the old city to the ground and completely rebuilt it when they conquered it. It should, however, be a clearly Hlaalu city. I think Marauth made a good suggestion, make the center as Hlaalu architecture and leave the outskirts as Redoran. Or add some kind of large Hlaalu fortress on an edge and leave the rest as Redoran. Hlaalu would want everyone to see that they rule the city now and will have quite some display.

Dialogue could point out that some of the citizens of the city don't like the recent powershift at all and prefered the conservative Redoran rulers over the new Imperial-style rule of House Hlaalu. There would be a lot of Hlaalu guards present as well to show off and make sure Redoran isn't trying to get the city back in some way. But that's probably of later concern.
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Post by kingfish »

hmm, that sounds interesting...
but isn't this shift of power an old story? i mean, it's been long ago that hlaalu took over, thus a lot of time for them to rebuild it in their own style, or not? how long ago exactly are we talking about?
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Post by Marauth Alaí-Raán »

Within the lifetime of the player, the only evidence for this insane theory that someone here came up with (purely to explain away the fact that no one had bothered to check up on the lore before the current claims system was in place and we all know what became of that, *cough*SilgradTower*cough*) is a conversation you have with Athyn Sarethi about Bolvyn Venim where Sarethi says that the Archmaster has such a hold on the people because he brought them back to power from the brink of defeat and moved the council to Vvardenfell. So in reality there's no evidence the city is Hlaalu and it should have been done in Redoran style but that's in the past now. Also very little of the city would have been altered by now as you can imagine the resistance it would generate among the populace? most of whom would have strong Redoran ties (unlike on Vvardenfell where most people have nothing to do with their House as they've only been there a short time) these cities on the western border are ancient Redoran and wouldn't take to kindly to their cities being knocked down for crappy Hlaalu block buildings.

Edit: @ Vegor - I think a while ago I proposed that the Redoran main quest should revolve around recovering their lands from the Hlaalu in a glorious 'rise from the ashes' kind of thing. Kinda like Poland, but with only one neighbour cutting it up instead of three. (for those with any historical interest it was Russia, Prussia and Austria - the Three Black Eagles)
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Post by Yinnie »

Marauth Alaí-Raán wrote:
Only bit of lore on it AFAIK is that at the time of the Pocket Guide it and pretty much all the other Hlaalu cities on Map 4 were Redoran, TR has made up a half-baked idea that Hlaalu has nicked all of Redoran's territory so it's being built as Hlaalu I believe, according to whoever made up this bit of lore here, it's one of House Hlaalu's recent aquisitions at the expense of the Redorans, it used to be Redoran before the armistice so maybe some old buildings on one edge should still be Redoran style and the rest would be the 'new' Hlaalu city.

Though if I conquered an enemy city I wouldn't demolish the whole thing because I dislike their architecture it's just bad for PR and it takes a lot of money to completely rebuild a city but hey.
Correct. This is made Hlaalu because the modder has an affinity for Hlaalu and Imperial architecture. And it was the trend to 'do what we want and make lore up to fit what we want' in those old times. Favouritism and pick and choose what we want.

In my honest opinion it would be better if KD is made a Redoran city as the Map in the Pocket Guide says it is. Faction Maps can be changed. Lore is set in stone.

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Post by Marauth Alaí-Raán »

Oh my god, someone important actually agreed with me. :shock:

Hurrah for the lore! (imagine a not-too-posh english accent -which I have - when you read that and I don't sound so stupid).

Nice to meet you Yinnie :D LOL - I've been around for a fair while but I guess that my predilection for the lore forums and my total inneptitude with the CS has meant that you important higher up chaps and chapesses never come into contact with me.
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And a black deer said
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Post by Morden »

But what happens now? Do we change KD and leave the other towns? Or does the hardcore revamping begin here?
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Post by Kothloth »

Atleast two cities of map 4 are still unfinished, Karthor Dale and the one in old 4-3. Both could be made redoran, or rather should, because these cities being hlaalu is just something from the past.
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Post by kingfish »

ok, a final decision please, should i make it redoran than?
i don't have a problem doing it redoran and since i'll rework it from scratch anyways, it's no big deal to change it back to redoran.
so, core please, what should it be?
thanx
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Post by Kothloth »

Make it redoran, please
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Post by sirwootalot123 »

yes, a big please. I'll change the faction map (I made the latest one) for it...
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Post by kingfish »

ok, will do.
i've decided to make it redoran already few days ago...

q #1: is it lore-correct to make a velothi-style temple in a redoran city?

q #2: how many interiors? -at least 50, i hope...
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Post by Marauth Alaí-Raán »

Erm, not sure on interiors but check other cities - Kragenmoor is the Redoran's biggest city and it has a lot of interiors but I dunno how many. Also yes of course they'll have a temple, the Redoran are very devout Temple followers.
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And
someone came out of a dream
and it was me.
I knew I was he because I had been told that I was, by others both in the dream and outside of it.
And a black deer said
"Don't Be Afraid".
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