Indoril-Thirr Section

Version: 

Active: 

Currently in development

Checked out: 

No

Description

The section file containing the east bank of the Thirr. Mainly focused around the Indoril.

Workflow

This is the file where dialogue, quests, and claims for the eastern Thirr should be merged. Do not edit this file without also loading TR_Mainland.esp, and do not merge other esps into it without also loading TR_Mainland.esm! (see editing guidelines)

Development Plan

This file needs to continue being worked on as it did before: remaining issues need to be fixed, more dialogue and quests needs to be added, and Roa Dyr needs to finish its overhaul.
There is also an activator (more info here) that needs a script made for it.

Link to previous release

Merged Bugfixes: 

Merged Claims: 

Comments

New progress file. Change log

Gnomey's picture

New progress file.

Change log:
- did a bit of general patching up here and there, though I haven't resolved all the issues people have pointed out
- tidied up the council island some more
- added the hanging lamps back in
- added two interior shells to the 'Roa Dyr Safekeeping' interior; the Glass Hall where Indoril hold council and ritually consume punavit, and the Crossing of Lamps, a central building that will act as a hub for side quests. Here's how the floors of the Crossing of Lamps are arranged, from top to bottom:

Hall of Invocation - for the rare cases where negotiations with Daedra or powerful spirits are in order
Steward's quarters, shrines, audience room - where more complex or sensitive issues can be addressed away from the openness of the...
Foyer - this is where the steward questgiver will be located, acting as a literal interface between the Indoril and non-Indoril. (In the sense of the actual family/clan, not the organization as a whole). Also contains seating for waiting and discussing stuff and decoration.
Ancestor Hall, with a de-activated waiting door - this is where Indoril dead were interred before Ghostfence was constructed, along with foes and servants in the vein of Hanin's Wake.

I will probably put the Glass Hall up as an interior for claiming, though it's just two rooms and will be a bit awkward to properly arrange without a complete punavit drinking set. I got carried away implementing the shell of the Crossing of Lamps, so I'll be tackling that myself.

I thought I'd updated this

Gnomey's picture

I thought I'd updated this earlier, but apparantly not. The new interiors are merged and linked (except the Whispered Tenet, which I only just saw is ready for merging and should be merged in the next upload). I did some exterior work mostly around the back of the harbour offices, but mostly focused on interior work in the "Roa Dyr Safekeeping" cell, which is currently very cluttered as I've started copying over content from old Roa Dyr interiors so that I can delete the cells.
So far, I've deleted seven of the old cells; three Ilvi Manor cells and four Roa Dyr cells. (The Ilvi Manor used to be where Vhul is, so was separate from Roa Dyr).

Ok, dropping the file now.

Gnomey's picture

Ok, dropping the file now. The exterior of Roa Dyr is done, (barring door markers and updated NPCs), a few more interiors are mostly done, but I probably won't be able to set them up as claims before I get back. I didn't get around to doing anything with the rest of the file, eg. Almas Thirr fixes. It would be good to go over the exterior and spot the errors I undoubtedly left. What I'd like especially is for people to check the stairs next to the Crossing of the Lamps that go under an arch. I've flitted through with Orcs and Altmer without an issue, but apparently some still get stuck on it. Ideally, I'd want some pretty specific information from people who do have issues with it: were you playing OpenMW or vanilla, which race, were you running or jumping, going up or down?

Grabbing because some idiot

Gnomey's picture

Grabbing because some idiot forgot to fix the waterfall so that it falls to the water.

Edit: Dropping again, as I don't feel like reuploading the file for such a minor fix. I can always do so in two weeks if nobody has bothered implementing this change in the meanwhile.

Grabbing to fix the above

Gnomey's picture

Grabbing to fix the above issue and advance work on the remaining interiors. I also intend to do some basic NPCing (just placing the actors and setting their stats to start with).

New file up top. Given my

Gnomey's picture

New file up top. Given my inactivity on this file I was planning to drop it, as it's due some fixes anyway, but then I made a bunch of headway on it today, and don't want to lose that momentum now that it's finally come again.

I've merged the Glass Hall, added Ilvi's steward and Roa Dyr's main questgiver -- TR_m3_Diranya -- to the Crossing of Lamps and did some general fixing and detailing. I've gone over the existing dialogue and NPCs, have deleted those I don't think fit with current Roa Dyr, and have started editing the rest to work. Hopefully I'll get far enough tomorrow before the meeting to post a proper changelog for the NPCs and dialogue.

Finally dropping this so that

Gnomey's picture

Finally dropping this so that bug-fixing and other non-Roa Dyr work can be done. The dialogue and NPCing is very much in progress; I got rid of NPCs and dialogue who didn't fit and had no strings attached, so to speak, moved relevant NPCs from Roa Dyr interiors and who have Roa Dyr dialogue into the safekeeping cell, and started making edits to some of the NPCs and dialogue. I'm afraid it's not terribly organized yet, but I intend to return to it with a proper spreadsheet approach. In the interests of documentation, though, here are the messy notes I kept while making my changes:
 

 

Deleted interiors:
Roa Dyr, Idruvi Naryon's House
Roa Dyr, Terminus Atrus: Wizard

NPCs with dialogue:
TR_m3_Aaneth Felovil - Indoril Kinsman, turn into retainer (background, Draler Ilvi)
TR_m3_Adosi Biran - servant
TR_m3_Caro - has Dondril dialogue
TR_m3_Danvas_Ilvi - youngest son
TR_m3_Draler Ilvi
TR_m3_Doves Silvin - Indoril kinsman, apothecary, edit background
TR_m3_Drothyl Sevol - head priest, should be of Vhul now, double-check
TR_m3_Elenora - philosopher, nab dialogue for Diranya?
TR_m3_Eveshi Drilor - harbourmaster, edit background
TR_m3_Favlea Drothril - daughter. Deleted
TR_m3_Galor Naves - brewer, deleted
TR_m3_Gnaws-the-Ground - slave, rename
TR_m3_Golvor_Ilvi - eldest son, xenophobe
TR_m3_Iverea Drothril - wife. Deleted
TR_m3_Jeanette Cobden - ??
TR_m3_Kaisus - Cyrodiilic tourist alchemist, deleted
TR_m3_Larola Naves - brewer, deleted
TR_m3_Llanas Tharoth - publican, deleted
TR_m3_Llaren Ilvi - middle son
TR_m3_Mabelien - smith, deleted
TR_m3_Marlene - rowdy prisoner
TR_m3_Meduni Silvin - Indoril servant, edit background
TR_m3_Methal Fals - publican, deleted
TR_m3_Minasi Indala - servant, edit background
TR_m3_Relan_Teneran - publician, deleted
TR_m3_Sela_Delvencii - ??
TR_m3_Tavylu Ilvi - wife
TR_m3_Terminus Atrus - outlander wizard, sort of replaced by the one in Vhul. Deleted.
TR_m3_Tilmari Ovelas - Indoril Oathman, itinerant retainer
TR_m3_Tirnen Felovil - hetman, deleted as Roa Dyr doesn't need one
TR_m3_Tivor Varyos - travelling vendor, edit background
TR_m3_Uvo Drethl - was moved to Vhul

NPC placement plans:
Exterior
Residence
-2 Guards
-Clerk Siln Tharoth
Temple
-1/1 Ilvi son 1
-1/1 Priest
Council Garden
-Retainer
-Gardener
Outcasts' Yard
-Traveller
-Guard
Harbour
-Retainer overseer
-1 Tollmer
-2/2 Velothi dockworker
-1 Velothi washerwoman
-2/3 Labour slaves
-1/1 itinerant merchant

Roa Dyr, Spire
-Ilvi's wife
-Ilvi son 2
-Cleaning staff

Roa Dyr, Statemen's Hall
-Indoril ________, Lay Elder of a nearby Chapel
-Priest
-2 servants
-Cleaning staff
-3 Guards

Roa Dyr, Craftmen's Hall
-Blacksmith, Dunmer, adept at enchantment, able to make Daedric weapons, etc.
-Breton slave, skilled armoursmith, excels at working silver and with fine decoration
-Cook
-Assistant
-Slave
-2 guards (one in smithy, one patrolling)

Roa Dyr, Servants' Hall
-Cleaning staff

Roa Dyr, Clerks' Hall
-3 clerks

Roa Dyr, Warriors' Hall
-Indoril Ilvi
-Retainer
-2+ Guards

Roa Dyr, Glass Hall
-Bosmer slave
-Guard

Roa Dyr, Watchtower
-Guard Captain
-Jailor
-Prisoner

Roa Dyr, Field Slaves
-4 slaves

Roa Dyr, Household Slaves

Roa Dyr, Crossing of Lamps
-1/1 Ilvi son 3
-1/1 Ilvi's Altmer steward, older end of middle-aged, served House Indoril in Almalexia long before coming into service in the Ilvi household. A skilled summoner.
-1/1 Retainer
-Various persons with grievances.
-2/3 Guard

Roa Dyr, Sanctum
-2 Priests
-2+ Guards

Roa Dyr, Black Hand Hall
-Morag Tong operative

Roa Dyr, Tollmen's Hall
-1 Tollmer
-2 Slaves
-Guard patrolling

Roa Dyr, Layover Post
-young itinerant Indoril noble
-2 itinerant guards

Roa Dyr, Whispering Tenet
-Indoril overseer
-Velothi crew
-2 slave labourers

Sum
5 Ilvi family
6/6 retainers
18+/15 guards
4/4 priests
6/6 clerks and tollmer
10/10 servants
6/6 household slaves
7/7 labour slaves
10/NA travellers and misc.

v0.228

Arvisrend's picture

Dropped. Changelog:

- abot's suggested replacements ( https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/bugtracker/references-standard-objects-m... ) done for Indoril-Thirr.

- Int "Ulor Noryn's Shack" renamed as "Eravan, Ulor Noryn's Shack". (By the way, what is happening to "Eravan, Elenora's Shack"? Cut and move?)

- The Indoril Garrison building in Almas Thirr now has an ex_vivec_h_07 shell.

- Ex_De_Shack_Door    Aanthirin Region (10,-27)    83019    -219741    248    "own".

- com_sack_01_chpfood5    "Eravan, Talsi Envano's Shack"    4927    4358    15699    "own".

- T_De_Drink_BourbonGoya_01    Aanthirin Region (13,-27)    108152    -216931    1506    "own". (and the scroll too.)

- Various typo corrections in dialogue.

- in_mud_rock_05    Mirou Grotto    3509    1398    -542    "c".

- a_siltstrider    Almas Thirr (6,-27)    52072    -220168    -566    "unown".

- flora_tree_ai_03    Aanthirin Region (11,-28)    97153    -222652    1004    "f".

- Terrain_rocks_AI_01    Aanthirin Region (11,-28)    90465    -223459    101    "c".

- terrain_rock_ai_01    Aanthirin Region (11,-28)    95091    -224940    538    "f".

- Terrain_rocks_AI_01    Aanthirin Region (12,-28)    98586    -228212    573    "f".

- NPC "TR_m3_Pallatia Prentus" has been added to the EEC faction, at level Clerk.

- Topic "across the bridge" implemented to help confused players (the actual responses leave much to wish for, but I was aiming for "better than nothing"):

Record: DIAL "across the bridge" Flags:0x0000 ()
  NAME: ID:across the bridge
  DATA: Type:(Topic)

Record: INFO "24378208722347418788" (Topic:across the bridge) Flags:0x0000 ()
  INAM: ID:24378208722347418788
  PNAM: Prev_ID:
  NNAM: Next_ID:1165914833070918487
  DATA: Disposition:50  Rank:None  Sex:None  PC_Rank:None
  ANAM: Cell:Almas Thirr, Canalworks
  NAME: Response:
Take the exit west for the marketplace and the western bank of the Thirr. Or, if you want to get to the eastern bank, go up to the Waistworks and further up until you reach the top level of the canton; then exit east to the high bridge.
 *SCVR: Index:0  Type:(Not_Local)  Function:(Variable_Compare)  Comparison:(=)  Name:NoLore
  INTV: Compare_Value:0

Record: INFO "1165914833070918487" (Topic:across the bridge) Flags:0x0000 ()
  INAM: ID:1165914833070918487
  PNAM: Prev_ID:24378208722347418788
  NNAM: Next_ID:2865432314941925230
  DATA: Disposition:50  Rank:None  Sex:None  PC_Rank:None
  ANAM: Cell:Almas Thirr, Waistworks
  NAME: Response:
You are in the waistworks of the Almas Thirr canton. The upper floor here connects to the plaza and to the bridge east. From the lower floor you can get to the canalworks, where you can exit west to the market and the western shore.
 *SCVR: Index:0  Type:(Not_Local)  Function:(Variable_Compare)  Comparison:(=)  Name:NoLore
  INTV: Compare_Value:0

Record: INFO "2865432314941925230" (Topic:across the bridge) Flags:0x0000 ()
  INAM: ID:2865432314941925230
  PNAM: Prev_ID:1165914833070918487
  NNAM: Next_ID:1873527482269892355
  DATA: Disposition:50  Rank:None  Sex:None  PC_Rank:None
  ANAM: Cell:Almas Thirr
  NAME: Response:
You are in the western part. If you are looking for the bridge east, you need to go through the canton. You can enter it at the level of Canalworks, then climb the stairs up to the top of the Waistworks and exit to the east.
 *SCVR: Index:0  Type:(Function)  Function:(Choice)  Comparison:(=)  Name:
  INTV: Compare_Value:11

Record: INFO "1873527482269892355" (Topic:across the bridge) Flags:0x0000 ()
  INAM: ID:1873527482269892355
  PNAM: Prev_ID:2865432314941925230
  NNAM: Next_ID:284293562907828239
  DATA: Disposition:50  Rank:None  Sex:None  PC_Rank:None
  ANAM: Cell:Almas Thirr
  NAME: Response:
Right now, you are east of that bridge. If you have any business in Almas Thirr, you should go west, into the canton. If you're looking for the western quarters, you'll have to exit the canton through the Canalworks.
 *SCVR: Index:0  Type:(Function)  Function:(Choice)  Comparison:(=)  Name:
  INTV: Compare_Value:13

Record: INFO "284293562907828239" (Topic:across the bridge) Flags:0x0000 ()
  INAM: ID:284293562907828239
  PNAM: Prev_ID:1873527482269892355
  NNAM: Next_ID:12923242813201622883
  DATA: Disposition:50  Rank:None  Sex:None  PC_Rank:None
  ANAM: Cell:Almas Thirr
  NAME: Response:
Almas Thirr consists of two parts. The western part is our market quarter, built atop a broad bridge. It connects directly to the lands of the Hlaalu. The eastern one is a canton, with a bridge to the eastern shore of the Thirr. Beyond that bridge is the Bloodstone Shrine.
 *SCVR: Index:0  Type:(Not_Local)  Function:(Variable_Compare)  Comparison:(=)  Name:NoLore
  INTV: Compare_Value:0
  BNAM: Result:    if ( getInterior == 0 )

            if ( getPos X < 48000 ) ; western part

                choice "Continue" 11

            elseif ( getPos X > 56000 ) ; east of the eastern bridge

                choice "Continue" 13

            endif

        endif

Record: INFO "12923242813201622883" (Topic:across the bridge) Flags:0x0000 ()
  INAM: ID:12923242813201622883
  PNAM: Prev_ID:284293562907828239
  NNAM: Next_ID:
  DATA: Disposition:0  Rank:None  Sex:None  PC_Rank:None
  ANAM: Cell:Almas Thirr
  NAME: Response: I am not your guide, outlander.

 

Grabbing this. I want to be

Gnomey's picture

Grabbing this. I want to be done with my Roa Dyr work at the end of this month, so I'll have to get to it. For the time being, though, my main priority is removing the outdated Roa Dyr interiors, as they seem to have been causing a lot of confusion.

New file. Nothing flashy, but

Gnomey's picture

New file. Nothing flashy, but I have finally cleared out all of the defunct Roa Dyr interiors and have added all the missing new cells. (The in development interior claims not included).

Interiors removed since the last update:

 

Here's a status update on the new interior list:

 

In Aanthirin Region 12, -26

Cicero's picture

In Aanthirin Region 12, -26 near the farmsteads north of Vhul, there are some rock steps that are used to connect two paved roads which looks really bizarre, as seen from the screenshots I did a mockup of here:

 
Lastnight I dreamt that somebody loved me!
No hope, No harm
Just another false alarm!
 

 

Cicero's picture

Proposed Change:


 

 
Lastnight I dreamt that somebody loved me!
No hope, No harm
Just another false alarm!
 

Dropping in case someone else

Gnomey's picture

Dropping in case someone else wants to do work on the file. I forgot to implement Cicero's proposal. General change-log:

-merged three interiors (Clerks' Hall, Statemen's Hall, Layover Post), added pathgrids where they were missing.
-added further detailing on "Roa Dyr, Spire", "Roa Dyr, Tollmen's Hall", "Roa Dyr, Hall of Judgement", "Roa Dyr, Sanctum", "Roa Dyr, Warrior's Hall". They're all at about 80-90% completion.
-moved the last of the interior shells out of "Roa Dyr Safekeeping", added northmarkers and pathgrids to them.
-general tweaks and fixes around Roa Dyr.

Changelog (2019-05-01b): -

Arvisrend's picture

Changelog (2019-05-01b):

- Merged [Almas Thirr](https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/claims/npcs-and-general-dialogue-almas-t...) and [Perils of Literacy](https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/claims/perils-literacy). Removed most of the DELETEME responses.

- Cleaned and deleted book T_Bk_MineralsOfMorrowindTR.

- Removed spurious edit to "local economy" response 302612303120331746 ("END MAP4"), which hijacked this response and moved it to the front of the queue.

- Fixed the 3 rent variables in Almas Thirr.

- NPC "TR_m3_Illene Teloth" in AT Office of Intercession is no longer nolored.

- Fixed 2 T_Mw_Temple conditions. One more will be fixed by the Bloodstone Pilgrimage quest once it's merged.

- The Almas Thirr caravaner now at least offers travel to Vhul.

 

Changelog (2019-05-02a): -

Arvisrend's picture

Changelog (2019-05-02a):

- NPC "TR_m3_Illene Teloth" is nolore again.

- Fixed https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/bugtracker/hole-floor-almas-thirr by moving the ext shell of that building further into the wall.

- Spelana's AT merge notes done. Sorry for forgetting them at first.

- A cluster of 6 skillbooks, neatly placed on a highly visible shelf in the AT Office of Intercession, has been replaced by 1 skillbook amid 5 "Lives of the Saints" copies.

- Cell "Almas Thirr, Indoril Garrison, Lower Quarters" renamed as "Almas Thirr, Indoril Garrison, Quarters".

- Activator shrines in cell "Almas Thirr, Monastery of St. Veloth, Dome" unowned.

- Some holdout "Narrative of Yilgamseh"s replaced by Gospels of St. Veloth books 1-2. If the latter are meant to be hidden, shout at me in discord.

- Fixed the rest of https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/bugtracker/almas-thirr-minor-oversights to the extent it applied.

- Hetman Llothro is now a Temple acolyte, to move this in line with the (not yet merged) BSP quest.

Hey there! On Arvis' request,

Telumendur's picture

Hey there! On Arvis' request, I playtested the quest Perils of Literacy (original claim here) in its current implementation, in the Indoril-Thirr release file v0.240. I playtested with a non-affiliated Dunmer, trying several ways to complete the quest, as well as several beginnings and endings. [I looked for the Hlaalu rival bookseller, but couldn't find him. Is this by design, or did I look poorly?]. The writing and implementation are very good overall, although I did catch a couple bugs, and several topic inconsistencies & typos. Here we go, for whoever feels like fixing this:

Quest progression and bugs:

  • Upon bringing the book back to Tilresi, when she asks how much the player had to pay for the book:
    • answering "50 drakes" results in Tilresi giving the player 75 drakes
    • answering "120 drakes" results in Tilresi giving the player 150 drakes
  • Upon first refusing to help Tilresi, then coming back and asking her about accusations again, Tilresi will repeat the whole story from the top. This could be changed so that she just asks "So, have you reconsidered?", or something similar, if you care for that kind of details (I do, but I understand not everyone does, which is fine).
  • Upon first refusing to help her, Tilresi asks the player to reconsider, stating that "there's no way [for her] to get [her] hands on this book before the Ordinators arrive", even though she later directs the player towards the Canalworks Temple (which is right next door, so that she could've gone herself), or to another city (which are very far away, even though, I know, there are teleportation options). This discrepancy is reinforced by the fact that, once the player returns with the coveted book, she says "I'll put it on the shelf later", so all sense of urgency gone. This is somewhat immersion-breaking, so here's a possible set of alternate lines to alleviate the problem:
    • "Please reconsider, if you can... [...] Hlaalu replace me." --> "Please reconsider, if you can. A squad of Ordinators could show up here any minute now, or it could just as well take another couple of days before they decide to finally come down and search my collection. Whatever the case may be, I'm too afraid to leave my shop for more than a few minutes: it might make things worse for me, since it could look like I attempted to escape arrestation. So you see, there's no good way for me to go get this book myself, and I really can't have that Hlaalu heathen replace me."
    • "You've found a copy? Oh, that's brilliant! I'll put in on a shelf later, next to..." --> "You've found a copy? Oh, that's brilliant! I'll put in on the shelf right away, next to..."

Dialogue chains:
There are some recurring inconsistencies with the way the topic On the Evils of Heresy is handled for the various booksellers across the province: some keep the topic after selling the book, others don't, and some dialogue seems partly broken. Here's what I found:

    • Simine Fralinie, topic On the Evils of Heresy:

      • the bracketed sentence "[Simine is now stocking...]" only shows up the first time the topic is selected, not on any additional selection of the topic. Upon buying the book from him however, the topic On the Evils of Heresy still yields the same line "Oh, I know that one...", with the bracketed sentence making a reappearance. I think that this bracketed sentence could be removed altogether.
      • the fact that the above topic doesn't disappear after buying the book once differs from Jobasha's behaviour, for instance, where agreeing to buy it from him once results in the topic being removed from his list.
    • Dorisa Darvel, topic On the Evils of Heresy:
      • here too, buying the book doesn't remove the relevant topic from Dorisa's list.
      • the fade-to-black that represents the wait while Dorisa searches for the book the first time makes a reappearance if one buys the book, and then asks about it again.
      • contrary to Simine's behaviour, choosing the topic On the Evils of Heresy results in the bracketed sentence being displayed every time (although the book is added to her inventory only once, which is good). Here too, I think the bracketed sentence could be removed altogether.
    • Codus Callonus, topic On the Evils of Heresy:
      • his dialogue is great, but his open disdain for religious books is contradicted by his books on offer somewhat: he has Saryoni's Sermons and the Lives of the Saints for sale. I'm fine with leaving it as-is, but I thought it was worth mentioning, just in case.
    • I haven't tried any of the last three booksellers, though (the three in Telvanni towns), since it's getting late for me and their dialogue is minimal anyway.

    Finally, also note that the topic On the Evils of Heresy seems to remain available after the quest ended in all booksellers the player didn't pay a visit to. I only tried one configuration, though: bought the book at Almas Thirr's Temple, brought it back to Tilresi, then visited the other booksellers: they would have their usual lines, sometimes stocking the book as a result, except for Jobasha, who has a unique line that implies that he already discussed the book with the player. I guess the topic has been left there on purpose in the various booksellers, so that when meeting them later in their game, the player can go "oh, wonder what this guy has to say about that book", and ask them about it, which gives an opportunity to better flesh out the booksellers' personalities. I would, however, make sure that the accompanying mechanics behind those line are removed (the fade to black at Dorisa's, for instance), and that the bracketed sentences ("[xxx is now stocking On the Evils of Heresy]") are removed as well: they really are more confusing than anything, if you ask me. Alternatively, if the fact that the topic stays in the booksellers' list after the end of the quest is considered a bug more than anything else, then it should be fixed.

    Dialogue flow and typos:

    • Tilresi, topic accusations, upon agreeing to help:
      • flow: "Thank you, %PCName. I'm sure you understand... [...] to find a copy somewhere." --> "[...] to find a copy somewhere; make haste, if you can!"
    • Codus Callonus, topic On the Evils of Heresy:
      • typo: "...where it came from: Some decades ago..." --> "...where it came from: some decades ago..." (lower-case "s")
      • typo "...herd of frightened guar..." --> "...herd of frightened guars..." (it's a herd, after all)

    Cheers!

    Hey! Finally found some time

    Telumendur's picture

    Hey! Finally found some time to do some playtesting again, so here's a look at the merged Almas Thirr NPCs and dialogue in version 0240b of the section file. I used a new character, Dunmer, non-affiliated. The list below may seem long and discouraging, so let me first state that the dialogue and NPCs of Almas Thirr, overall, are very good! Kudos to all those who contributed. Most of the typos were already caught in the spreadsheet, so what remains are mostly small bugs, and enhancement proposals.

    UPDATE:  I've now been through every NPC in Almas Thirr (...I think), including the Eastern Bank, the Canton (Plaza to Underworks), the Piers, and the Western Bridge! The next step would be to check out faction-specific and race-specific dialogue (ie dialogue that is unique to the player being of a certain faction/race), which should be a quick thing, since according to the spreadsheet, there are only a few faction-specific lines.

    Almas Thirr -- Dialogue bugs:

    • Ordinators and War Ordinators, topic little secret:
      •  the line "Irnami Silsi is always looking to punish..." makes the Ordinators talk about themselves in the third person. Could it be filtered out?
    • Ordinators and War Ordinators, topic little advice:
      • similarly to the previous point, the line "Respect the Temple's doctrine...", makes the Ordinators talk about themselves in the third person, and should maybe be filtered out. Although it feels much less weird in this line, so it's up to you.
    • Pallatia Prentus, topics across the bridge, Services, someone in particular, specific place, and maybe (maybe) local area:
      • these topics are all using the generic lines found troughout the city, but I feel that Pallatia, as a captain only passing through, should have a much less detailed knowledge of the city, even if she stops here regularly. After, in the topic Almas Thirr, she admits herself that she doesn't like the city very much.
      • the topic across the bridge isn't that much of a problem, save for the "our market" that appears in it.
    • Wilgerd, topics across the bridge, Services, someone in particular, specific place, and maybe (maybe) local area:
      • see above the remarks made for Pallatia.
      • also, if the NPC class "sailor" (or similar) exists in TR, I'd make Wilgerd one.
    • Relis Velethi, topics across the bridge, Services, someone in particular, specific place, and maybe (maybe) local area:
      • if he's a crewmember of the Glinting Moth, see above the remarks made for Pallatia. Although, since he's a Dunmer, he could have a more nuanced perception of AT, somewhere between Pallatia's not caring and the locals' knowledge.
    • Dunard Bauring, topics across the bridge, Services, someone in particular, specific place, and maybe (maybe) local area:
      • see above the remarks made for Pallatia.
    • Ordinators in the Canalworks Tombs, topic across the bridge:
      • they have the line "Leave through the western door...", like the people in the Canalworks' main hall. While it works there, the line can be confusing here in the Tombs, and should be reverted to a more generic one ("Almas Thirr consists of two parts...", for instance).
    • Jahram, topic across the bridge:
      • he has the same answer a non-friendly Dunmer would give ("I'm not your guide, outlander"), even though he's a Khajiit. This is by design, and has some precedents, says Slepana.
    • Seey, topic across the bridge:
      • same remark as for Jahram. See above.
    • Seey:
      • she's missing the topic go free, even though she's an enslaved Argonian. Is this by design?
    • Jahram, topics Roa Dyr and Thirr River:
      • he has standard answers, found throughout the city, which makes a jarring contrast with his Khajiit-specific lines for the topics Background and Bloodstone Shrine.
    • Various people, greeting:
      • in the greeting "Welcome to Almas Thirr, a stronghold in the Aanthirin region...", the word Aanthirin isn't a clickable topic. Is this by design, or an oversight? I guess it is by design, since the spreadsheet seems to indicate that only Temple members have the Aanthirin topic enabled, but I'd rather make sure.
    • Nadis Oram, greeting:
      • his greeting "If you were looking to buy something..." states that Dralosa Arethi can be found "upstairs", which may be confusing, since Nadis can sometimes be found upstairs already. So it all depends whether "upstairs" is most commonly understood to mean "one floor up from here", or "the upper floor of this building (regardless of what floor you're currently on)". In the first case, the line should be changed, but in the second case it shouldn't.
    • Darane Navur, greeting:
      • "Good day, %PCName, and welcome to my tradehouse...." --> this has already been reported by Arvis, I think, but the letters "my trade" are highlighted here, and lead to the topic my trade.

    (Also, the topics Bloodstone Shrine and Bloodstone Pilgrimage are currently almost completely absent, but I guess this is normal, since they are handled in the corresponding quest claim.)

    Almas Thirr -- Generic dialogue flow, wording and typos:

    • topic Services:
      • wording: "...the Hospice of the Crossing provides beds for the devoted." --> "...the Hospice of the Crossing provides beds for the devout." makes it slightly clearer that we're talking about pious people.
    • topic specific place:
      • wording: "The canalworks is where common folk gather." --> either "...where the common folk gathers" or "...where common folks gather", but I feel the current form is a weird mix.
    • topic latest rumors, the one about the recent arrival of a Necrom Ordinator:
      • wording: "...looking for Temple curates to assist with his duties." --> "...looking for Temple curates who could assist him in his duties."
    • topic local area:
      • wording: "Old Ebonheart, an Imperial fortress at the..." --> "Old Ebonheart, an Imperial fortress and city at the..." OR "Old Ebonheart, the Imperial seat of power in Morrowind, located at..."

    Almas Thirr -- NPC-specific dialogue flow, wording and typos:

    • Irnami Silsi, topic Background:
      • typo: "Under the sovereign authority of my house..." --> "Under the sovereign authority of my House..." (?)
    • Avon Hlaalu, topic Almas Thirr:
      • wording: "Various regulation here hamper..." --> "Various local regulations hamper...", to avoid the repeat of "here", already used in the next sentence.
    • Undine Lelard, topic specific place:
      • flow: "...by bug on the north side, if you feel safe..." --> "...by bug on the north side. If you feel safe...", to reinforce the afterthought vibe I get from the line.
    • Yammu Hainnadon, topic my travels out west:
      • flow: "...it isn't really as bad a place..." --> "...it really isn't as bad a place..." (?)

    Almas Thirr -- Suggested additions and enhancements:

    • I feel like some of the NPCs in the Office of Intercession, the Office of Recording and the Office of Tribute should have those names as topics, and a couple unique lines of dialogue to explain which purpose those places serve, and the job they're doing there.
      • if other NPCs throughout the city could also have some (sparse) dialogue leading to those places/topics, that'd be a great bonus.
    • the same goes for the Indoril Guards throughout the city, and especially in the Garrison: they could have a line or two about the current Indoril-Hlaalu tensions, and explain that they're here to make sure the Hlaalu don't infringe on their prerogatives, maybe. As it stands, only Irnami Silsi mentions it, and only indirectly so.
    • Having more unique lines for the topics Background, specific place, Services, someone in particular... in the same style as Undine Lelard's ones would be great! It wouldn't have to be done on too many NPCs (maybe 1-2 on the eastern bank, 1-2 in each section of the canton, and 2 on the western bridge), but it would go a long way towards making the population feel more diverse in its opinions and personalities.
      • The next tier would be to do the same for the topics Almas Thirr, Aanthirin, and Thirr River.
    • Davor Indri, the slaver on the western bridge, could benefit from having a couple unique lines/unique greeting related to the fact that he's a slave trader (I guess that's what he is, right?), and why he isn't offering any for sale to the player.
      • S'Vosh: the only topic that is written in the Khajiit style is the Background one. All others are standard lines found elsewhere in AT, which clashes badly with the Background line. I know there are loads of precedents for this throughout the game, but I'd still reduce the number of topics he has available, and re-write the few that remain in the Khajiit style, just for him.

      • very small, specific idea: Yammu Hainnadon, the owner of the Thirsty Saint Cornerclub, could have a line about how the Temple tried to make him change the name of the Cornerclub, since it can be interpreted as a name making fun of a Temple Saint, or at least not showing it the respect it deserves.

      Dialogue problems that come from other claims, but may be fixed in the Indoril-Thirr section file:
      If any of the below points cannot be fixed in this section file, let me know, and I'll file a bug report.

      • Indoril Dorvi, topic my trade:
        • typo: "...to serve my house and clan..." --> "...to serve my House and Clan...". (not sure for house, but clan is definitely capitalized just a bit further in the same line)
        • there's a second occurence of this further down: "...piety of my house,..." --> "...piety of my House,..." (?)
        • the fix could go either way (lower- or upper-case) depending on what's customary in TR, but having a mix of both cases should be avoided
      • topic other cults:
        • typo: "The Daedric cult worship..." --> "The Daedric cults worship..."
      • topic shrines:
        • wording: "Shrines are three-sided trioliths..." --> "triolith" already means "three-sided stone", so there's an unnecessary repeat here.
        • typo: "...where prayer and offerings are made..." --> "...where prayers and offerings are made..."

      Final questions: there's currently no shipmaster offering travel services. Who will it be, in the end: Ralis Nalor, on the western bridge (as implied by Undine Lelard, even though Ralis is a fisherman with unique dialogue)? Or Rothis Thalur, a Dunmer currently at the Thrirsty Saint Cornerclub who has a greeting implying he can take the player to other places along the River? Or somebody else still?

      That's it for now!

      My reasoning for not

      Slepana's picture

      My reasoning for not including some changes in the file I've sent to arvis (see Discord)

       

      Pallatia Prentus, topics across the bridge, Services, someone in particular, specific place, and maybe (maybe) local area:

          these topics are all using the generic lines found troughout the city, but I feel that Pallatia, as a captain only passing through, should have a much less detailed knowledge of the city, even if she stops here regularly. After, in the topic Almas Thirr, she admits herself that she doesn't like the city very much.
          the topic across the bridge isn't that much of a problem, save for the "our market" that appears in it.

      Went in the opposite direction and only rewrote "across the bridge" because that seemed the most jarring to me. Other lines felt alright, though it would be nice to have more.

      Wilgerd, topics across the bridge, Services, someone in particular, specific place, and maybe (maybe) local area:

          see above the remarks made for Pallatia.
          also, if the NPC class "sailor" (or similar) exists in TR, I'd make Wilgerd one.

      Relis Velethi, topics across the bridge, Services, someone in particular, specific place, and maybe (maybe) local area:

          if he's a crewmember of the Glinting Moth, see above the remarks made for Pallatia. Although, since he's a Dunmer, he could have a more nuanced perception of AT, somewhere between Pallatia's not caring and the locals' knowledge.
      Dunard Bauring, topics across the bridge, Services, someone in particular, specific place, and maybe (maybe) local area:

          see above the remarks made for Pallatia.

      There's no "sailor" class as far as I'm aware. Again, this would be good to have, but it's a lot of dialogue and while it looks better, it doesn't add much.

      Ordinators in the Canalworks Tombs, topic across the bridge:

          they have the line "Leave through the western door...", like the people in the Canalworks' main hall. While it works there, the line can be confusing here in the Tombs, and should be reverted to a more generic one ("Almas Thirr consists of two parts...", for instance).

      I honestly don't see how it's confusing? Literally every other interior of Canalworks shares the issue, why the Tombs? They have one exit, people won't get lost.

      Nadis Oram, greeting:

          his greeting "If you were looking to buy something..." states that Dralosa Arethi can be found "upstairs", which may be confusing, since Nadis can sometimes be found upstairs already. So it all depends whether "upstairs" is most commonly understood to mean "one floor up from here", or "the upper floor of this building (regardless of what floor you're currently on)". In the first case, the line should be changed, but in the second case it shouldn't.

      See discord, "upstairs" works in both cases

      topic local area:

          wording: "Old Ebonheart, an Imperial fortress at the..." --> "Old Ebonheart, an Imperial fortress and city at the..." OR "Old Ebonheart, the Imperial seat of power in Morrowind, located at..."

      Why? I don't really see the issue. Not everything needs to be spelled out in every piece of dialogue, it feels unnatural imo.
       

      Irnami Silsi, topic Background:

          typo: "Under the sovereign authority of my house..." --> "Under the sovereign authority of my House..." (?)

      House is lowercase in such cases in vanilla, left as is.

      the same goes for the Indoril Guards throughout the city, and especially in the Garrison: they could have a line or two about the current Indoril-Hlaalu tensions, and explain that they're here to make sure the Hlaalu don't infringe on their prerogatives, maybe. As it stands, only Irnami Silsi mentions it, and only indirectly so.

      Because they're not supposed to be able to do that. Almas Thirr is neutral on paper. If Indoril guard starts talking about how they're there to deal with Hlaalu while it's the Temple that's supposed to settle these things, the conflict will get heated real quick. The official reason they're there is to protect the stronghold.
       

      Having more unique lines for the topics Background, specific place, Services, someone in particular... in the same style as Undine Lelard's ones would be great! It wouldn't have to be done on too many NPCs (maybe 1-2 on the eastern bank, 1-2 in each section of the canton, and 2 on the western bridge), but it would go a long way towards making the population feel more diverse in its opinions and personalities.

          The next tier would be to do the same for the topics Almas Thirr, Aanthirin, and Thirr River.

      Again, good to have, but I just can't think of anything.

      very small, specific idea: Yammu Hainnadon, the owner of the Thirsty Saint Cornerclub, could have a line about how the Temple tried to make him change the name of the Cornerclub, since it can be interpreted as a name making fun of a Temple Saint, or at least not showing it the respect it deserves.

      I don't like the implications of that. It's a Temple stronghold, if they didn't like the club it'd be gone in seconds.

      Indoril Dorvi, topic my trade:

          typo: "...to serve my house and clan..." --> "...to serve my House and Clan...". (not sure for house, but clan is definitely capitalized just a bit further in the same line)
          there's a second occurence of this further down: "...piety of my house,..." --> "...piety of my House,..." (?)
          the fix could go either way (lower- or upper-case) depending on what's customary in TR, but having a mix of both cases should be avoided

      See vanilla lines for great house nobles, they're exactly the same

      topic other cults:

          typo: "The Daedric cult worship..." --> "The Daedric cults worship..."

      topic shrines:

          wording: "Shrines are three-sided trioliths..." --> "triolith" already means "three-sided stone", so there's an unnecessary repeat here.
          typo: "...where prayer and offerings are made..." --> "...where prayers and offerings are made..."

      These aren't TR lines at all, they are vanilla

      [copy-pasted from Discord]

      Telumendur's picture
      [copy-pasted from Discord]

      Thanks for the "feedback on feedback"! Some of your remarks are really insightful for me, the Old Ebonheart ("not everything needs to be spelled out") and Indoril Garrison ones ("careful not to make the conflict more heated than it already is") in particular. I'll keep them in mind in future testing/questing work.

      Also, sorry for not checking that the lines I report at the end were actually vanilla, should've done that. And finally, I'll let you know if I can think of a few ideas for additional unique lines for 3-4 characters throughout Almas Thirr over the next couple of weeks. Nothing too much (or so I hope).

      I'll give the new IT file a spin when it's up, along with the Bloodstone Pilgrimage ESP, if I find the time.

      Changelog 2019-05-06a: -

      Arvisrend's picture

      Changelog 2019-05-06a:

      - Merged Slepana's Almas Thirr dialogue fix (with typos corrected).

      Went ahead and play-tested

      Telumendur's picture

      Went ahead and play-tested Slepana's AT dialogue fixes included in version 2019-05-06a (v.0241.esp), going through every point in the changelog she posted on Discord: a couple things didn't go as expected, and a couple new problems arose, but it's probably an easy fix.
      I also quickly play-tested the Bloodstone Pilgrimage quest (link) with this new version of Almas Thirr, and everything went smoothly: all the expected people have the expected dialogue (including people at the Office of Intercession), there's no clash between AT dialogue and quest-specific dialogue, etc...

      Update May 23: I went back to AT to test all faction-specific dialogue included so far (based on the spreadsheet). Most dialogue works as intended, but I did find a couple bugs, which I added to the "Specific NPCs" section below. I also made a short list of NPCs who would benefit the most from having some unique dialogue lines for common topics (Almas Thirr, specific place, etc), but I'll hold on to it some more, until Slepana or I find the time to discuss this.

      Note that, as suggested by Slepana on Discord, the fixes can wait until one of us comes up with the additional dialogue lines we want to add to Almas-Thirr, since it's nothing game-breaking.

      Specific NPCs:

      • Ordinators, topic little secret:
        • the line "I'm not privy to local secrets..." has found its way into Ordinators' dialogue, now. I feel like it should be filtered out, since the line is designed mainly for outlanders and traveling merchants.
      • Ordinators, topic little advice:
        • the line "Ordinators don't take kindly to transgressors..." has found its way into Ordinators' dialogue, now. I feel like this one should be filtered out too, since it causes them to talk about themselves in the 3rd person again.
        • likewise, the line "Times are hard, outlander..." has found its way into their dialogue, which makes them criticize the Temple.
          • I feel like a good fix for those two problems would be to write a unique little advice line for Ordinators, which would mostly read like the one they had before ("Respect the Temple's doctrine..."), save for the part of it that mentions Ordinators: this part should be rephrased to use "we" instead of "they", or be omitted altogether.
      • Temple members in the Office of Recording:
        • none of the NPCs here actually uses the greeting7 "What brings you to the Office of Recording, outlander?", making the topic Office of Recording impossible to get for non-Temple members.
        • the greeting7 used there when the player is a Temple member ("Saints bless you...") does work as intended, though, and the corresponding line for the topic Office of Recording is there.
      • Avon Hlaalu, greeting and topic Background for Hlaalu members:
        • the NPC still uses the generic lines when talking with a Hlaalu player. Internally though, the player's faction is correctly detected, because the topic House Hlaalu is only available when the player belongs to that faction.
      • Andor Orothi, greeting and topic duties for Temple members:
        • the Temple-specific greeting doesn't show up: I get the generic line "What brings you to the Temple, %PCRank?", instead.
        • I couldn't test the topic duties, since the dialogue about the player having to do pilgrimages first takes precedence.
      • Lloris Dalan, greeting :
        • the Temple-specific greeting doesn't show up: I get the generic line "What brings you to the Temple, %PCRank?", instead.

      Generic dialogue:

      • topic Aanthirin (new, non-Temple version):
        • flow: "...neutral Temple stronghold Almas Thirr." --> "...neutral Temple stronghold of Almas Thirr."
        • I'm not sure how I feel about the mention of the region being orange-green: feels a bit too meta, if you ask me. But it's not a big deal.

      Very good job overall! I Haven't found the time to come up with ideas for new unique lines for the topics specific place, someone in particular, Almas Thirr, etc., as we discussed on Discord, but will post if I do come up with something.