Old Ebonheart is new ground

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iamzeke's picture
iamzeke
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Hello everyone, first post here.

I've played since GOTY box set was released in the very ealy aughts.  I got into mods pretty much after my first run through and about every other year I basically relearn the game and adding mods from scratch because by the time I'm ready to play again the procedures have slipped my memory.

Admission:  I've never played the TR mod.  I said early on to myself I'd wait a few years until they finish it.....back in like 2003 or something like that.  Ok, so I gauged that wrong and should have tried that earlier.  But one reason I let it wait was the general impression given ages ago was that TR would leave the island to general mod community and TR would cover outside the island.  But like a year or two ago I heard that TR was incorporating what a guild was doing off the island into the main island game.  Then I heard about the Old Ebonheart.  Clearly the old rule or custom has changed. 

I didn't join to object to the change.  Frankly, at some some point some degree of integration had to occur or else TR would just end up a second complete game using the same platform.  On the other hand this change can run into conflict with tons of island mods.  We've seen even complete island overhaul mods arise.  Pretty good ones too.  It will cause players potentially have to choose between big island mods and TR.  I see that as a big issue down the road.  Obviously TR could back off the island or force players to choose between overhauling the island for more playability or installing TR.  All choices come with a downside.  But there is another choice.  A group working in concert with the TR crew to make its own island overhaul that helps to better mesh the island with TR.  TR crew seems pretty busy already.  I doubt this time scale was foreseen in the early aughts to still be working on TR.  Hindsight is just what it is, and trying to steer the TR crew now to focus on the island only adds to the project timeline.  But some kind of separate project with different modders liaising with TR could get it done.  Dark Elf of MMS Youtube is a good example of where modders not on TR exist to recruit from.  Plus the existing bounty of almost 2 decades of mods exit to draw from so an island overhaul team doesn't have to work from whole cloth like TR has to do.  Perhaps a couple intensive years could get something accomplished.  Morrowind Rebirth is a perfect example of just one modder taking a few years with a mix of existing mods and new material to redo the entire island.  A small team could do something similar, and also ensure the work meshes with TR.  A team could also isn't going to fall down the rabbit hole of one person's vision and will stick closer to proper lore and game balance.

Perhaps this discussion has been addressed already or is ongoing.  I didn't find it though.  I'd like to join in it, or if not already in motion then get it going.  I have most of a year at home in front of me to spend on the issue.

I'd appreciate your thoughts and guidance to move me in the right direction.

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MinerMan60101
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I'm pretty sure most if not all Vvardenfell edits are going to be in seperate esps, like TR_Travels.esp and TR_Factions.esp, so they're optional.

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iamzeke
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MinerMan60101

I'm pretty sure most if not all Vvardenfell edits are going to be in seperate esps, like TR_Travels.esp and TR_Factions.esp, so they're optional.

But there would be no reason to need an endless list of mods if the work was done right.  Imagine the directory looking like this:
_001_ Morrowind.esm
_002_ Tribunal.esm
_003_ Bloodmoon.esm
_004_ MW-Superpatch.esm
_005_ Tamriel-Rebuilt.esm
_006_ Vvardenfell-Reboot.esm
_007+ Player Mods

#4 would be someone finally making a combined patch/utility mod that finally covers all the bases that it seems you now need a half dozen to cover.  #5 for TR.  #6 would make over the island and make the various interconnections.  The goal being to get to needing only a tiny handfull of additions to remake the game much larger.  Ostensibly a new player wouldn't need to learn how to install or make mods.  The point being the ease to a novice would entice more new players to try the game by getting it off Steam or picking a vintage copy of discs off one of the resale sites.  A new player revival due to massive stable content and ease of installation would also get a percentage of new players interested in modding too.

Honestly I groan a bit and delay putting MW on every new computer I buy because I have to sift through the blizzard of old and new mods, find conflicts, and get the game to play nice.  And the delay means I my installation skill set fades again.  I'd love to be able to just add a couple massive mods and call it done, so I could be playing -- not seting up.  Novices to the game will generally feel the same way.  Let's face it, as time goes on it seems that youthful gamers have less tolerance of complication.  This game is older than many teen gamers.  To bring in new players into the MW fold we have to account for changing habits of each new generation or face having the player base shrink with time.  They will just go buy the latest rpg that gets them playing in 20 minutes after downloading instead of needing to learn increasingly obscure and lengthy installation method or just leave them with the very dated GOTY game version.  They are likely just to skip the hassle and go with the latest Bethesda offering instead, so our player pool just keeps shrinking.

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There's no other way to do it. Not unless you want TR to be disconnected from Vanilla MW. Which was the biggest complaint about TR years ago. Now that it has an optional plugin to bridge the two together, it makes it all coherent. And it's optional. And morrowinds player base/modders are more active than that of oblivion, a game that's newer. Morrowind will gain players more and more because of skyrim modding. So they already know the process, and they are curious to try it out because of online forums saying its the last true Elder Scrolls in the eyes of the die hard fans, which is true to an extent. It's definetly the last true RPG ES.

Also known as Ferretmyster Nexus Mods:  https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/users/2686043

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iamzeke
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Cicero

There's no other way to do it. Not unless you want TR to be disconnected from Vanilla MW. Which was the biggest complaint about TR years ago. Now that it has an optional plugin to bridge the two together, it makes it all coherent.

I'm not sure why an island reboot cannot also include the essentials to tie the island to TR.  All it needs is the island revision team to liaise with TR and include the tie-in elements.

Please note that I'm not suggesting to add to the TR team workload.  The idea would be to build a separate team.  All that the TR team would be asked for is permission to use the interconnection parts and their blessing/enthusiasm.  Maybe at most a review process near the end to ensure storylines and lore don't diverge.

I had planned to bring this idea up first with the modders working at Morrowing Modding History to see if a team could be built from there, but I realized that to connect it to TR I would need the TR team blessing first.  So I have started my "sales pitch" here first.

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This thread comes across, sorry to say, as a bit confused.

The most important thing first: Old Ebonheart is on the mainland, not on Vvardenfell. Its existence doesn't fundamentally change Tamriel Rebuilt.

The change in scope happened in 2014 and was announced here: Official Statement of Vision
It mainly concerns the Tribunal expansion's Mournhold, the travel connections, and the faction questlines.

The travel and faction changes will be done in separate ESPs (TR_Travels and TR_Faction, respectively), as has been decided after a call for votes and opinions back in 2017. See here: TR Status Update and the result here: Faction and Travel Integration: The Big Ol' Decision

At no point have been looking into a wide-scale overhaul of Vvardenfell in the scope of Morrowind Rebirth. Wherever and whoever you heard that from was misinterpreting something or being misinterpreted. Mournhold aside (which we will be replacing in total, as announced in the statement of vision) such changes are completely beyond the scope of this project.

The large island mods you mention are already incompatible with the mainland. I'd suggest looking at abot's Morrowind Mod List for patched/moved landmasses.

If you want to start up a Vvardenfell Reboot project that includes and thereby supercedes the changes TR_Travels and TR_Factions bring to the game, you are welcome to do so. Use of Tamriel_Data for such a project is of course a given, as its permissions will cause no problems.

This hypothetical Vvardenfell Reboot is not something that Tamriel Rebuilt as a project will undertake or participate in, however.

A precedence and example exists with Anthology Solstheim, another mod that changes a vanilla landmass, partially on the idea to make it play better with Tamriel Rebuilt's landmass. It's my mod, but it's not part of or required by TR.

If you want an official "blessing", that's all we can give you.

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"This thread comes across, sorry to say, as a bit confused.
The most important thing first: Old Ebonheart is on the mainland, not on Vvardenfell. Its existence doesn't fundamentally change Tamriel Rebuilt.

I know OE is on the mainland.  The relevancy relates to the shared name and lore that it implies, not the game functions.  I also noted the travel and guild connections that do have direct game connections, which could easily interfere with any island reboot mod unless effort was made to avoid conflicts.  That takes more than mere blessing.  That takes actual liaisoning and use of the TR interconnection mod sections.

The travel and faction changes will be done in separate ESPs (TR_Travels and TR_Faction, respectively), as has been decided after a call for votes and opinions back in 2017.

Which could be used in an island expansion.

At no point have been looking into a wide-scale overhaul of Vvardenfell in the scope of Morrowind Rebirth. Wherever and whoever you heard that from was misinterpreting something or being misinterpreted. Mournhold aside (which we will be replacing in total, as announced in the statement of vision) such changes are completely beyond the scope of this project.

At no point did I say TR planned to make one.  You are seeing things never written.  That is likely the cause for your confusion.  On the other hand, unless one is done then you have basically created a separate stand-alone game using the same launch platform.  Which trashes the concepts of immersion and cohesion, plus leaves novices who have poor skill at adding mods with a tired 2 decade old and very bugged vanilla game as your lead-in for TR.

The large island mods you mention are already incompatible with the mainland.

Now you are stating things I said already.

If you want to start up a Vvardenfell Reboot project that includes and thereby supercedes the changes TR_Travels and TR_Factions bring to the game, you are welcome to do so. Use of Tamriel_Data for such a project is of course a given, as its permissions will cause no problems.

There might be things added by an island mod to help tie the interconnects to the story together with TR, or additions to be avoided that makes storylines conflict.  Thus a bit of liaison needed.

I'm not here to gather "blessing".  I'm here to gauge interest in the idea of updating the island game so it is fresher and more attractive to both old players and to lure new players -- plus seamlessly interconnect to TR at the same time.  Any idea of blessing or liasioning will come later when an outside team is assembled and some kind of storyboard is fleshed out to show to the TR team.

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not interested, sorry.

"Admission:  I've never played the TR mod."
-guy proposing radical vanilla changes

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We went from:

I had planned to bring this idea up first with the modders working at Morrowing Modding History to see if a team could be built from there, but I realized that to connect it to TR I would need the TR team blessing first.  So I have started my "sales pitch" here first.

To this:

I'm not here to gather "blessing".  I'm here to gauge interest in the idea of updating the island game so it is fresher and more attractive to both old players and to lure new players -- plus seamlessly interconnect to TR at the same time.  Any idea of blessing or liasioning will come later when an outside team is assembled and some kind of storyboard is fleshed out to show to the TR team.

Okay, so which one is it?

The idea is good, and "if you build it, they will come". You'll be competing with Morrowind Rebirth (which has little to no interest in being compatible with Tamriel Rebuilt) and Wolli's eventually upcoming Vvardenfell overhaul. We've done some cooperation with Outlander too, but that project seems to be delayed for the time being.
If you can get the ball on this project rolling (which you have our "blessing" for, as stated above), more power to you. I agree that everything else can come when you've assembled a team and have started actually creating this overhaul, within the constraints laid out in my last post.

At no point did I say TR planned to make one.  You are seeing things never written.  That is likely the cause for your confusion.

To be frank, your original post was pretty much all over the place and you said that you only "heard" things which we've announced in detail, so I thought I'd better adress points that aren't there instead of leaving some unadressed.
One thing I left unadressed: there are no modders working at Morrowind Modding History, it's an archiving site. The forum it links to (Project Fliggerty) is pretty much dead. I'd suggest you go to the Morrowind Modding Discord (you can find it in the sidebare of the TES3Mods Subreddit).

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iamzeke
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Atrayonis
To be frank, your original post was pretty much all over the place and you said that you only "heard" things which we've announced in detail, so I thought I'd better adress points that aren't there instead of leaving some unadressed.

One thing I left unadressed: there are no modders working at Morrowind Modding History, it's an archiving site. The forum it links to (Project Fliggerty) is pretty much dead. I'd suggest you go to the Morrowind Modding Discord (you can find it in the sidebare of the TES3Mods Subreddit).

Pardon, I meant Morrowind Modding Showcase forum site.  I just happened to have the MMH page open in a tab when I was typing.  Yep, Fliggerty is a wasteland.

Rebirth was just the inspiration a few years ago, but he was just making an advanced mod mostly for himself with his own vision.  One person alone just falls down the rabbit hole.  You need others to remind you to stick to some kind of canon.

But as you impled, talk is cheap.  I have to build a team first.  I had best get to it.